1 Friday, 26 April 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 1.33 p.m.

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Good afternoon, everybody. The case be called,

6 please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is Case Number

8 IT-97-24-T, the Prosecutor versus Milomir Stakic.

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And the appearances, please.

10 MR. KOUMJIAN: Nicholas Koumjian with Ann Sutherland, assisted by

11 Ruth Karper, case manager, for the Prosecution. Good afternoon, Your

12 Honours.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Special good afternoon to you. Welcome aboard.

14 MR. LUKIC: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Branko Lukic and Mr.

15 John Ostojic for the Defence.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. May we directly proceed with Witness

17 B. May Witness B be brought in.

18 [The witness entered court].

19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Good afternoon, Witness B.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The Defence is prepared for the

22 cross-examination?

23 MR. LUKIC: Yes, we are, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please proceed.

25 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.

1 WITNESS: WITNESS B [Resumed]

2 [Witness answered through interpreter]

3 Cross-examined by Mr. Lukic:

4 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Witness B.

5 A. Good day.

6 Q. Could you please tell us if you had testified before the Tribunal

7 before?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. For the record, we would like to note that the Defence is

10 cross-examining the witness, even though it has not had the opportunity to

11 see the transcript of his testimony in a different case, because the same

12 was not disclosed by the Prosecution, according to the decision of the

13 Trial Chamber of the 25th of April of this year. The Prosecution is not

14 bound to provide the Defence with this transcript. So we will proceed

15 with the cross-examination.

16 Witness B, if you remember, could you please tell us whether the

17 police officers at Kozarac after the takeover of power of -- on the 30th

18 of April, 1992, were Muslims?

19 A. I don't know that. I didn't live in Kozarac.

20 Q. Thank you. Do you know who was on the barricades at Hambarine and

21 Kozarac?

22 A. At Hambarine, I don't know their names.

23 Q. Do you know what was the ethnicity of the people who were at the

24 checkpoint at Hambarine?

25 A. Yes, Muslims.

1 MR. KOUMJIAN: Could I just ask the Court -- may I ask the Court

2 to ask the witness to pause before answering the question for two

3 purposes: One, first to allow the interpretation to catch up, and

4 although I'm sure it would never happen, in case I want to make an

5 objection, it would give me an opportunity to do so once I've heard the

6 question interpreted before the answer begins.

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Of course, the Chamber will jealously protect

8 the right to be heard and informed also for the Prosecutor, but to be

9 serious, first of all, it's a matter for facilitated interpretation, and

10 therefore please take care there is no overlapping and wait a little bit

11 until the answer or the question has been interpreted. Thank you.

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Q. Witness B, you stated that after the request for Aziz Aliskovic to

14 surrender and also for weapons to be handed over, the citizens of

15 Hambarine did not wish to hand over either the weapons or Aziz Aliskovic.

16 Is this true?

17 A. Yes, it is.

18 Q. Thank you. Did you hear about the murder of a police officer at

19 Urije when the killer fled to Donja Kuharska?

20 A. I heard that over Radio Prijedor, that he was killed. Yes, I

21 heard that over Radio Prijedor.

22 Q. Do you know whether in Bosnia and Herzegovina and the former

23 Yugoslavia, it was normal before the war to arrest the perpetrator of a

24 killing, of a murder?

25 A. Yes, before, that was quite usual.

1 Q. On page 5 of your statement, you're talking about the Banovic

2 brothers, and in your statement, you claim that they were both -- they

3 were both responsible for abusing the inmates at Keraterm and Trnopolje.

4 Do you stand by your statement?

5 A. Yes, but in that statement of mine, as far as I know, I gave a

6 more detailed explanation of that.

7 Q. Thank you. You were arrested at home when you were taken to

8 Keraterm. Is that true?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. How many Muslim houses are there in your street, if you remember?

11 A. I don't know exactly, but it was approximately half and half, half

12 were Croat and half were Muslim, and there was one Serbian home.

13 Q. Do you remember how many men were arrested that day?

14 A. Between 20 and 25. I don't know the exact number.

15 Q. Were there any people arrested at Kurevo who were brought to

16 Keraterm after you were arrested?

17 A. When I came to the camp, I didn't know the composition of arrested

18 people, who was arrested where.

19 Q. Very well. Thank you. Were there any arrested people who were

20 wearing uniform at Keraterm?

21 A. I didn't see them, except for two police officers who had signed

22 an oath of loyalty to the Serbs. But then they were brought to Keraterm

23 from their place of work.

24 Q. Do you know if there were any cases of personal revenge at

25 Keraterm?

1 A. I only heard about that, but I don't know about it.

2 Q. Could you please tell us what you heard.

3 A. For example, my neighbour was called out one night and taken out.

4 And he told the guards -- asked the guards: "Why me? My wife is a Serb."

5 And then the guards replied: "That's why we want you." And the man was

6 brought back to the cell after he was beaten.

7 Q. Do you know if there were such cases of personal accounts settling

8 at Keraterm, if there were many such cases at Keraterm? Did you hear

9 about such cases?

10 A. Well, I did hear of some cases. I don't know how many there were.

11 Q. Thank you. According to you, who was authorised to release

12 somebody from the camp?

13 A. From Keraterm, there were no such cases, nobody could come out of

14 Keraterm alive.

15 Q. Did you hear about a man called Muhamed Cehajic?

16 A. Yes. He was the elected president of the municipal assembly. He

17 was elected at the last democratic elections.

18 Q. Do you know that Mr. Muhamed Cehajic was opposed to the presence

19 of the JNA on the territory of the municipality of Prijedor?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Do you believe or do you know that he could have ordered the army

22 to leave the territory of the municipality of Prijedor?

23 A. No, he couldn't do that.

24 Q. Could you give us the names of several people who were with you at

25 Keraterm and who are alive today?

1 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, I think this answer should be in

2 closed session.

3 MR. LUKIC: [In English] I agree, Your Honour, yes.

4 MR. KOUMJIAN: Or private session.

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Okay. Then please, we continue in private

6 session.

7 [Private session].

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [Open session]

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: It is open session. Would you please repeat

23 your last question once more.

24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Witness B, did you volunteer to testify before the Tribunal?

1 A. No.

2 Q. Did you state that you regularly followed on television what the

3 proceedings at the Tribunal?

4 A. No, I didn't follow the proceedings at the Tribunal at all. It

5 wasn't possible for me to do that.

6 Q. I would like to move on to the checkpoints now, and I would like

7 to ask you a few questions on that topic. You said that the people at the

8 checkpoints would stop everybody that they saw in civilian clothes. Is

9 that right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you know that in April and May 1992, general mobilisation was

12 in force?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Did the guards at the checkpoints know in advance who was a Muslim

15 and who was a Serb before they checked the ID of the person that they

16 stopped?

17 A. No. They couldn't know in advance, but it was a well-known fact

18 that in 90 per cent or more of Serbs were already in uniforms. They were

19 walking around in uniforms.

20 Q. But when we're talking about people in civilian clothes, the

21 guards couldn't distinguish them until they saw their ID. Is that right?

22 A. Probably.

23 Q. Did that also mean they would stop Serbs who were in civilian

24 clothes?

25 A. Yes, yes.

1 Q. I would like to ask you now something about the 30th of April,

2 1992, the day when the Serbs took power in the municipality of Prijedor.

3 Are you sure that on the 30th of April, 1992, the Crisis Staff was

4 mentioned, as you stated?

5 A. No. I'm not sure whether it was mentioned that day for the first

6 time, exactly on that day. I'm not sure about that.

7 Q. Very well. You don't know whether it was mentioned for the first

8 time that day, but do you remember whether it was mentioned on that day as

9 well, the Crisis Staff, whether it was mentioned as somebody who had taken

10 over power?

11 A. The Crisis Staff began to be mentioned during those days. But

12 whether it was mentioned for the first time that morning or the day before

13 or the day after, I couldn't tell.

14 Q. Very well. Thank you. Do you remember what was stated, who was

15 at the head of the Crisis Staff?

16 A. I don't know. At that time, I knew, but now I don't know.

17 Q. Thank you. I would like to now ask you something about the

18 checkpoint at Hambarine. Were you at the checkpoint at Hambarine?

19 A. No.

20 Q. How do you know that unknown and armed people were passing through

21 the checkpoint at Hambarine? Could you tell us how you know that, please?

22 A. We talked about this yesterday, but I heard that from the local

23 population, and it was a well-known fact that throughout the entire

24 territory of the municipality of Prijedor, armed and uniformed people were

25 moving about.

1 Q. Do you know that the Ljubija police forces remained mixed, even

2 after the takeover of power?

3 A. I don't know whether they were mixed, but I know that a couple of

4 police officers signed their loyalty to the Serbs. And those police

5 officers, as I mentioned earlier, ended up the way I said they did, even

6 though they had signed loyalty to -- or declared their loyalty to the

7 Serbs and remained at their jobs.

8 Q. Did the police officers from Prijedor on their way to work, to

9 Ljubija have to pass through Hambarine?

10 A. If somebody was working in Ljubija and lived in Prijedor and had

11 to travel there, they had to pass through, yes.

12 Q. Could you please tell us how far this checkpoint at Hambarine is

13 from your house?

14 A. Two kilometres.

15 Q. Can we conclude, then, that there were Muslim checkpoints, and

16 after the takeover by the Serbs on the 30th of April, 1992 -- even after

17 the takeover by the Serbs on the 30th of April, 1992?

18 A. You say "even after the takeover," but I think that those

19 checkpoints were set up after the takeover. That's how it was, I think.

20 Q. These checkpoints, the Muslim checkpoints, were they attacked

21 before the conflict or the clash at Hambarine?

22 A. No. I don't know what we're talking about. We're talking in the

23 plural, but at Hambarine, there was only one checkpoint. We're talking

24 about one checkpoint.

25 Q. Could you please explain to us, if you can, how is it possible for

1 Muslim checkpoints to exist at the time of the Serb takeover?

2 A. Well, I don't know, but probably because Muslim villages -- well,

3 probably because nobody recognised this authority.

4 Q. When you say "nobody recognised this authority," who do you mean?

5 A. I mean the locals, the inhabitants of those individual villages.

6 Q. Does that apply to everyone, Serbs, Croats, and Muslims?

7 A. There were no Serbs in Hambarine.

8 Q. You say you had been a driver in the army. Is that true?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did drivers do target practice in the Yugoslav People's Army?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What were the weapons involved?

13 A. Infantry weapons.

14 Q. We talked yesterday about the autonomous region of Krajina, the

15 Serb entity that had been established at the time. And I would like to

16 ask you, was this autonomous region of Krajina encircled and completely

17 cut off from all other territories controlled by Serb forces? Do you know

18 anything about it?

19 A. No, I don't think it was cut off.

20 Q. Did you hear of the battles for the corridor?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. "Corridor" means a passage. Why would it have been necessary to

23 open up a passage if there had been other connections with other

24 territories?

25 A. Are you expecting an answer?

1 Q. Yes. If you can give me one; if not --

2 A. I can't give you an answer.

3 Q. You say that you left Prijedor through Travnik. Is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Were you able to remain on the territory controlled by Muslim

6 forces?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Why didn't you stay there? Why did you go to a third country

9 instead?

10 A. Simply because I didn't want to wage war, and nobody was forcing

11 me at the time.

12 Q. I would now like to ask you something about the transport, the

13 convoy via Mount Vlasic. When you described the truck which took you and

14 your family towards Travnik after you had left your bus, can you tell us

15 what kind of truck was it?

16 A. It was a trailer truck.

17 Q. And can you describe the terrain across which this truck drove?

18 Was it hilly terrain or a flat land?

19 A. I can't tell you, because the tarpaulin covering was closed.

20 Q. Were you able to feel at what speed the truck travelled?

21 A. No. There was a lot of dust, though, and we were able to conclude

22 that the road was a macadam one.

23 Q. You didn't hear any gunshots when you were leaving that place on

24 Mount Vlasic. Isn't that true?

25 A. Yes, it is.

1 Q. You said that there were a lot of women, children, and men when

2 you arrived in Travnik. Is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you know that people were leaving Prijedor in large numbers

5 even before the war, even before the power was seized?

6 A. Yes, a certain number of people had left while the roads were

7 still open.

8 Q. Do you know that people mainly travelled by bus, via Croatia to

9 third countries?

10 A. Yes. The only way to leave was through Croatia, but that was

11 before the war.

12 Q. At one point you said that you had to produce your ID at the

13 entrance to the town. Is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Can we then conclude that you did move around town?

16 A. Yes. After the takeover, I once went downtown because I was a

17 member of the reserve police force. And we had all been summoned to a

18 meeting of reserve policemen in Prijedor.

19 Q. You also told us yesterday that some of your family came to

20 Keraterm and tried to get through to you some food and clothing or

21 whatever. Is that correct?

22 A. Yes, it was mostly women from our family who came.

23 Q. Can we then conclude that members of your family continued to move

24 around town even after your arrest?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Do you know that anyone was killed at a checkpoint manned by

2 Serbs?

3 A. I'm not aware of any specific case.

4 Q. Thank you, Witness B. I am sorry if my cross-examination was an

5 undue burden on you.

6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We have no further questions.

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.

8 Re-examination by the OTP?

9 Re-examined by Mr. Koumjian:

10 Q. Sir, Witness B, you were asked some questions about when you heard

11 about the Crisis Staff. Can you tell us what you remember hearing about

12 the Crisis Staff or when you would hear their name mentioned or used?

13 A. The names of these members of the Crisis Staff were mentioned

14 after the takeover because the municipal leadership that had been elected

15 in a legitimate way had been replaced, and the Crisis Staff was in the

16 process of appointing new people to senior positions. But I'm not able to

17 tell you much about the members of the Crisis Staff.

18 Q. I'm sorry. I didn't phrase my question very precisely. What I'm

19 interested in knowing is did you hear the name of the body, the Crisis

20 Staff, used in relation to specific events, announcements, or orders that

21 you heard in the media in Prijedor?

22 A. Yes. All decisions that were adopted and broadcast over the

23 radio, decisions or orders were read out. And at the end, you would

24 always hear "the Crisis Staff." But who the members of this Crisis Staff

25 were, I don't know.

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1 Q. Can you remember some of the kinds of orders that you heard given

2 in the name of the Crisis Staff?

3 A. I think those were orders to return weapons by neighbourhood.

4 Q. You say by neighbourhood. Did these neighbourhoods tend to be

5 neighbourhoods of a particular ethnic group?

6 A. Yes, by all means. The places in question were always Muslim

7 villages, or if a particular area or a neighbourhood had mixed population,

8 the decision or order applied only to Croats or Muslims.

9 Q. Sir, can you describe a little bit about the life that you had in

10 Prijedor prior to the conflict. Did you own any property prior to the

11 conflict breaking out in April, May of 1992?

12 A. Yes --

13 MR. LUKIC: [In English] This is not the line of question which

14 follows the cross-examination, so I apologise, but I have to object.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sustained.

16 MR. KOUMJIAN: I will show the clarity of this by leaping to the

17 question that I was going to do following this question.

18 Q. Sir, when you were in Travnik and in Bosnia, did you have the same

19 life that you had -- excuse me, when you left Bosnia for a third country,

20 did you have the same life in Travnik that you had had prior to the

21 conflict?

22 A. No. No. Before the war, I had a pretty good life in Prijedor.

23 And when we arrived in Travnik, after being robbed of everything we

24 practically owned, only the clothes we were wearing, and since no better

25 life was in store for us there, we decided to move on, to go abroad.

1 MR. KOUMJIAN: No further questions.

2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. May I just ask a few questions.

3 Questioned by the Court:

4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Witness B, since when did you live in Prijedor?

5 A. My entire life, until the war. 30 years precisely.

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Did you ever hear at that time the name Dr.

7 Stakic?

8 A. No, not before the war.

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And of course, you have seen the accused in this

10 courtroom. Can you recognise the person? Have you any idea? Have you

11 ever seen this person before out of the courtroom?

12 A. No, I don't remember ever seeing him before.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Witness B, at 14.07, you answered on a

14 question -- on the basis of a question of the Defence that: "Before the

15 war" -- and you emphasised before the war -- "the only way to leave was

16 through Croatia." How was it possible to leave Prijedor after the

17 takeover?

18 A. Afterwards, it became impossible to leave Prijedor on your own. It

19 was simply not possible. The only way were those convoys organised by

20 Serb authorities.

21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Could you please explain this a little bit more

22 in detail. Please understand, we want to get a picture coming as close as

23 possible to that what happened in that time, in 1992, in your hometown.

24 When you wanted, for example, we have heard a lot about the road from

25 Banja Luka to Prijedor, and then going on to Croatia. Why couldn't you

1 use this road just to leave, or possibly other ways how to leave the

2 municipality? Why wasn't it possible? In concrete, who was personally

3 responsible for this?

4 A. At that time, that was the only way, the only possibility, of

5 leaving Bosnia and Herzegovina open to the inhabitants of Prijedor, the

6 road Prijedor-Banja Luka, namely, because all the other routes were

7 already part of battlefields, and that was the only road open, leading to

8 Croatia or Serbia. All other communications had been cut off, because the

9 war was in full throttle, so to speak, everywhere. And I personally

10 didn't leave because I was physically unable to. It was impossible to

11 pass all the checkpoints that existed on that road. And it was too

12 dangerous. It was too much of a risk to try going anywhere.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.

14 To turn to another point, you mentioned the closing of the

15 Keraterm camp. Were you aware at that point in time what were the reasons

16 for closing the camp?

17 A. No, we didn't know anything about the reasons.

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sometimes, during your statements, you mentioned

19 the notion "Serbs." What do you mean when using this notion, Bosnian

20 Serbs or Serbs from Serbia?

21 A. I mean Bosnian Serbs.

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sometimes you mentioned the notion "police."

23 Could you make a distinction between the role of, let's say, regional and

24 municipal police? Is there a distinction to be made on the basis of the

25 uniforms, and could you please give us a view on the uniforms?

1 A. Absolutely not. You couldn't distinguish based on the uniform.

2 You could only distinguish between reserve policemen and active-duty

3 policemen. They had different uniforms.

4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Apropos uniforms, you mentioned numerous times

5 that you saw uniforms in Prijedor, Keraterm, Trnopolje. Could you there

6 make a distinction between special groups wearing special uniforms, and

7 could you please describe this uniform, the colour of the uniform, a

8 little bit.

9 A. Uniforms were done by policemen who were on active duty, who had

10 been on the police force, even before the war. When the war began, they

11 continued to wear the same uniforms. And when the war began, in addition

12 to the existing uniforms, a new kind of blue camouflage uniforms appeared,

13 so being totally unfamiliar with this new uniform, I was only able to

14 distinguish between reserve and active-duty policemen. Or, for example,

15 when I see a man whom I knew from before, wearing a uniform, I was able to

16 tell whether he was in the reserve or he was an active-duty policeman,

17 because I knew reserve policemen, having been one of them.

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: When you saw, for example, such as you

19 mentioned, blue camouflage uniforms, what was your association? Which

20 kind of person you expected wearing such a uniform?

21 A. I really couldn't tell you that. Perhaps you could put it in more

22 simple terms, rephrase your question.

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Could you, for example, identify a person as a

24 Muslim or, just another notion, as a Serb, by uniform?

25 A. No.

1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So when being, for example, on the street and

2 meeting a person in a blue camouflage uniform, did you believe this was a

3 policeman, a person from the military forces, or from another group?

4 A. The blue camouflage uniform was worn exclusively by the police,

5 never by the army. There could be no mistake about that. The only

6 question was to which police force they belong, the police station in

7 Prijedor, the police station in Banja Luka, or some other force. When the

8 war began, Muslims did not wear any uniforms at all, including that one.

9 So you couldn't be confused about who was wearing them.

10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.

11 Judge Fassi Fihri.

12 JUDGE FASSI FIHRI: [Interpretation] Witness B, would you like to

13 tell the Trial Chamber about the property that you and your family had to

14 renounce.

15 A. I had my own house in Prijedor, and my father had also signed away

16 his house. And my brother also owned a house. So all of us had to leave

17 behind all of our houses and the land that we owned.

18 JUDGE FASSI FIHRI: [Interpretation] You said that Muslims were

19 referred to as "Green Berets." Could you explain to the Trial Chamber

20 why, why were they called Green Berets?

21 A. I don't know why they were called Green Berets. Probably because

22 they wore green caps. But I don't know the exact reason why they were

23 called that way. That term was mostly used by Serbs.

24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Judge Vassylenko.

25 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Witness B, in your statement of 15 and 16

1 January of 1999, and 2nd of March the same year, while describing -- the

2 statement, page 00768486. While describing the events related to your

3 arrest, you said that: "No killing or serious beatings took place at the

4 time of my arrest." And further on, you describe the beating of a Croat

5 and explain that, I quote: "I guess somebody had given orders that there

6 should be no killing, and that killings ended. Cleansing took place after

7 some kind of official permission."

8 Do you have any idea what persons, what officials, what bodies

9 granted permission to kill, to beat, to cleanse?

10 A. I assumed that we were there in that place that was described in

11 the street where there were many Serbian houses. We were at the junction.

12 The next street was practically all Serb houses. So probably somebody

13 ordered -- or I don't know how to say this. That, at that point, there

14 are no killings, and that's what it says in the statement. And then that

15 one Serb soldier, he didn't tell us, but he said that in front of us. So

16 by that, we concluded that someone had ordered them that they mustn't kill

17 anyone.

18 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: But my question is: What is your opinion? Who

19 ordered soldiers to kill, to beat?

20 A. To kill? At that time, in my street, nobody was killed. And had

21 somebody issued such an order, I don't know who that could have been, who

22 could have or who did issue an order for the population to be killed.

23 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Thank you.

24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then before we conclude now, the statement of

25 Witness B, there was still a reservation as regards Exhibit S12B. Any

1 objections from the side of the Defence regarding this document? It was

2 on the release 5 August, 1992.

3 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes, Your Honour, it was my understanding that we

4 were going to reserve S12B for Wednesday, although we are prepared to tell

5 the Court that we do object on purposes of authenticity, and also

6 specifically in that document, although I don't have it in front of me,

7 the written language on the right-hand side, we're still attempting to

8 verify whether -- and there has been no testimony, quite frankly, from my

9 recollection, who wrote that down and whether the handwriting matches

10 either the person who signed it on the left-hand side of the document or

11 immediately above that document on the right side. So with that, those

12 are our objections, but we would like, if we can, until Wednesday, at the

13 very least, when we reconvene, to clarify and perhaps even amend some of

14 our objections on that. But if not, those would be our objections

15 currently, today.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then let's decide on this on Wednesday.

17 MR. KOUMJIAN: I'd prefer to ask a few questions of the witness

18 related to that objection while he's here. And if I could, I also had one

19 brief --

20 THE COURT: Sorry. This was the reason I think it's always better

21 to have the discussion on such exhibits in the presence of the witness.

22 MR. KOUMJIAN: Perhaps if the exhibit could be put on the ELMO.

23 Also, with Your Honour's permission, I also have a very brief

24 follow-up to Your Honour's question regarding the uniforms.

25 Excuse me, maybe not put it on the screen. I realise it has his

1 name on it, so it would be publicly broadcast. If the witness could just

2 have it in front of him. Thank you. Ms. Sutherland reminded me of that.

3 Thank you.

4 Further re-examined by Mr. Koumjian:

5 Q. Sir, there are two signatures that you testified you obtained

6 prior to getting your release from Trnopolje that appear on this document.

7 Is that correct?

8 A. Yes, that's correct.

9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

10 MR. KOUMJIAN:

11 Q. And on the right-hand side, is a signature that you testified was,

12 I believe, Pero Curguz, the head of the Red Cross in Prijedor. Is that

13 correct?

14 A. That's correct.

15 Q. How do you know that Pero Curguz signed that document?

16 A. Because he signed it -- I was present when he signed it.

17 Q. And I believe you testified regarding this yesterday, but the

18 signature that you identified as Slobodan Kuruzovic, how do you recognise

19 that signature?

20 A. First of all, he signed the document in my presence. And second,

21 had he not signed it in my presence, Mr. Kuruzovic was my mathematics

22 teacher for four years. So there can be no mistake there, either.

23 MR. KOUMJIAN: I would ask the Court to accept the document.

24 MR. OSTOJIC: I appreciate the clarification. I do have one

25 comment to add to that. In the direct testimony, it was clear that the

1 witness identified the signature by simply reading the signature. And I'm

2 thankful for my learned friend for clearing up that, in fact, it was in

3 his presence, which would remove one of our objections on the foundation.

4 However, I don't think it's appropriate, quite candidly, that after my

5 learned friend and the OTP concludes their testimony, that they can

6 reinvite the witness to ask questions remaining critical to this document,

7 I believe is who wrote the language immediately below the signature. That

8 hasn't been established either in the direct or the questioning currently

9 by my learned friend. We recognise now and accept the fact that Witness B

10 was present during the signing of this and his recognition of the name on

11 the left side as well. However, critical to this, and further

12 questioning, is why would someone write below that and not sign his name

13 under the document, which are reserved more for arguments. But none of

14 that has been established to date who wrote the language beneath the name

15 of Mr. Kuruzovic -- Pero Curguz, I'm sorry.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The Bench is always grateful for contributions

17 bringing us to the truth, so therefore we shall make advantage of both

18 systems, common-law system, civil law system, and of course it's for you

19 now, after we have heard the contributions and the other questions from

20 the OTP yourself, to have some additional questions. But please indicate

21 something about the time limit. We have already done more than possible,

22 especially with -- regarding human rights of the interpreters.

23 MR. KOUMJIAN: I don't have any further questions on the document.

24 I have a brief question regarding the uniform.

25 Q. Sir, His Honour Judge Schomburg asked you regarding the blue

1 camouflage uniforms. Do you recall the police or the people that you saw

2 in -- that you identified as police in your testimony who escorted the

3 buses who left Keraterm the day the camp closed, the two buses of people

4 who disappeared? What uniforms those police were?

5 A. Blue camouflage police uniforms.

6 Q. And is it correct -- well, I'll ask you again. The police that

7 were escorting the convoy over Vlasic mountain that included several buses

8 of men that disappeared, do you recall the colour of uniforms of those

9 police officers?

10 A. They were blue.

11 Q. And is it correct that you've indicated that you recognised some

12 of these police officers as being from Prijedor?

13 A. Yes.

14 MR. KOUMJIAN: No further questions.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. Of course, it's now the opportunity

16 for the Defence.

17 MR. LUKIC: We don't have any more questions, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. Then I have to thank, first of all,

19 Witness B for coming here and giving us some insights of that what has

20 happened in the past. And if I may overstep my mandate here, let me

21 personally say I hope that you will have a safe and good future [redacted]

22 [redacted].

23 We resume at 15.15.

24 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, may I raise a matter. There's two

25 matters I'm concerned about, I'd ask for redactions. Your Honour's last

1 comment, we may have to redact for witness protection reasons from the

2 record.

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Was it -- we were in closed session yesterday,

4 yes? Yes.

5 MR. KOUMJIAN: And I'm not sure whether when I asked that the --

6 my fault, that when I asked that document be put on the ELMO, if there was

7 a shot of that on the video, I ask that it be redacted. I don't know if

8 it was or not.

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Agreed.

10 [The witness withdrew]

11 --- Recess taken at 2.44 p.m.

12 --- On resuming at 3.18 p.m.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please be seated.

14 One real technical matter that I learned in the break, normally it

15 shouldn't be a problem that we have all our microphones switched on. But

16 in case we have voice distortion, then it causes problems, and then we

17 should take care to have only the microphone on when we are really

18 speaking out.

19 We turn to the next witness, Witness C. Same protections as -- or

20 protective measures as Witness B to be applied. May the witness be

21 brought in.

22 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, I've notified Defence counsel of this,

23 but just to put it officially on the record, the witness we anticipated

24 for next Friday, because we are running behind schedule and in order to

25 further confer with my office regarding the possible identification

1 issues, in the convenience of that witness, that witness prefers to be

2 moved back, and we plan on bringing that witness the 22nd of May. And the

3 witness will testify a few days later.

4 [The witness entered court]

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Good afternoon, Witness. May the solemn

6 declaration be taken.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

8 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you, Witness. You may be seated. And

10 first of all, I apologise, but we will address you as "Witness C." It's a

11 protective measure in your own interest. I hope you can understand this.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then please proceed with the

14 examination-in-chief.

15 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 WITNESS: WITNESS C

17 [Witness answered through interpreter]

18 Examined by Ms. Sutherland:

19 MS. SUTHERLAND: First of all, could the witness please be shown

20 this piece of paper. If it could be shown to the Defence first. It has

21 the witness's name on it, and if the witness could just confirm, without

22 saying his name, that that is his correct name.

23 Q. Sir, is that your correct name on the piece of paper?

24 A. Yes, it is.

25 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I would like to go into private

1 session to ask the witness some background information, if the Defence

2 have no objection.

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I can see no objections, so may it please,

4 private session.

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23 [Open session].

24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Confirmed. Please proceed.

25 MS. SUTHERLAND:

1 Q. Sir, have you ever been a member of a political party?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Do you recall the 30th of April, 1992?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. What happened on that date?

6 A. On the 30th of April, I left for work in the morning, around 6.00

7 a.m. by bus, headed towards Celpac, that is, Prijedor. That morning, I

8 waited longer for the bus than in the past.

9 Q. Sir, if I can just interrupt you, was Prijedor taken over by the

10 Serb authorities on the 30th of April, 1992?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did you hear anything on the radio about this takeover?

13 A. Throughout that day, we listened to the radio at work, and they

14 broadcast nonstop an announcement that the SDS had seized power in the

15 Prijedor municipality.

16 Q. After that date, was your freedom of movement restricted in any

17 way?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. In what way?

20 A. When you went to work and back.

21 Q. What happened when you went to work and back?

22 A. Every time there would be a control on the bus by Serb soldiers,

23 Serb military forces. The buses were frequently stopped at checkpoints in

24 Prijedor. They would get on the bus to carry out their check, two or

25 three soldiers in a group. And they demanded to see the IDs of all

1 passengers.

2 Q. Were these checkpoints manned purely by Serbian soldiers?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did the Muslims set up checkpoints outside of Hambarine?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. When did they establish these checkpoints?

7 A. After the 30th of April. I don't remember the exact date, but it

8 was after the 30th of April.

9 Q. Why did the Muslims feel they had to set up checkpoints?

10 A. That was done for safety reasons, to provide security for the

11 settlement of Hambarine after the takeover by the SDS. Before that, there

12 was a checkpoint manned by the Serb military, or rather the Serb police in

13 Tukovi. I think that that is one of the reasons why the checkpoint in

14 Hambarine was set up.

15 Q. How many checkpoints were there near Hambarine?

16 A. There were two.

17 Q. The men that were on the checkpoints, were they armed?

18 A. The checkpoint that I have already mentioned, the one in the field

19 in Hambarine, was manned by armed men who had rifles.

20 Q. What were the type of these weapons -- of these rifles?

21 A. Those were semi-automatic rifles, and I think they were old, M-48,

22 I think.

23 Q. You mentioned a second checkpoint. Were the men armed at that

24 checkpoint?

25 A. The other checkpoint was manned by unarmed people, but they were

1 on guard duty in order to be able to inform the citizenry in time in case

2 of attack or shooting.

3 Q. Sir, did you continue to work after the 30th of April, 1992?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. When did you cease to work?

6 A. On the 22nd of May.

7 Q. When you returned home that day, were you stopped at a checkpoint?

8 A. When I was going back home from work, the bus was stopped in

9 Prijedor near the Ribar restaurant.

10 Q. Did the bus continue on to Tukovi?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And at some stage, did you get out and walk through the fields to

13 your house?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. When you arrived home, were you told about a shooting incident at

16 the checkpoint?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Later on that night, the night of the 22nd of May, 1992, did

19 someone issue an ultimatum to the village of Hambarine?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you recall who issued that ultimatum?

22 A. I don't know them by name, but I know that there were Serb

23 soldiers, Serb troops, in fact, the Serb military command.

24 Q. How were the villages told about this ultimatum?

25 A. They came out into the field on a tank, on the 22nd of May, in the

1 evening. And they presented this ultimatum: Namely, that the policeman

2 Aziz Aliskovic should surrender. In the event of his failure to

3 surrender, or be handed over to them, Hambarine would be attacked.

4 Q. Did anything else happen that night?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Can you please tell the Court what happened.

7 A. Four tank discharges were fired at Hambarine, and that was a

8 threat to the population of Hambarine.

9 THE INTERPRETER: The witness can be told that he doesn't have to

10 worry about us. He can speak at a normal rate.

11 MS. SUTHERLAND:

12 Q. Sir, did you hear what the interpreter has just said?

13 After these four rounds had been fired, what did you do?

14 A. When those four shells were fired that night, we were at that

15 other checkpoint which had no weapons. And we had to withdraw to the

16 basement.

17 Q. The following day, was the ultimatum carried out?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Did anything happen in the village of Hambarine around noon on the

20 23rd of May, 1992?

21 A. Yes. It was then that the shelling of Hambarine began.

22 Q. What direction was the shelling coming from?

23 A. The shelling came from three directions, from the northwest, which

24 is the Karane area. The second direction was the area of Urije. And the

25 third was the area of Topic, or the Topic hill.

1 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honours, at this moment I would like to show

2 the witness a map, if it could be marked Prosecution Exhibit 13 -- 14.

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: No objections. Admitted into evidence.

4 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, a copy of this map was disclosed to

5 the Defence, and registry has a copy of the map also. I have three copies

6 in colour here, and three copies in black and white. Would Your Honours

7 prefer a copy or a black and white?

8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We are fine with...

9 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you.

10 If the map can be placed on the ELMO, if the witness can orient

11 himself with the map for a brief moment first.

12 Q. Sir, if the usher could place the map on the ELMO, and if you

13 could point with the pointer next to you, in front of you, to the three

14 places where the direction of the shelling was coming from.

15 MS. SUTHERLAND: Usher, you may have to move the map -- yeah.

16 Q. First, if you could point to Urije.

17 A. [Indicates].

18 Q. And that is northeast of Prijedor?

19 A. Northeast, yes, in my opinion.

20 Q. Whereabouts is Karani, the direction?

21 A. [indicates].

22 Q. Sir, if you could tell us the town where Karani is near.

23 A. Karani is roughly to the northwest, upwards of Brezicani. In my

24 opinion, from the Prijedor Bosanski Novi at a 10 kilometre distance, you

25 go to the right, and you reach Karani. It's approximately here.

1 Q. Sir, when you looked at the map yesterday, were you able to locate

2 the area of Karane?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And can you now point to Topic Brdo, please.

5 A. Yes. I have to turn to the other side. That's the Topic Brdo,

6 Topic Hill. It's located somewhere here. I can't find its name here on

7 the map. It's not far from Mijakovici.

8 Q. Sir, do you see the Prijedor-Sanski Most Road?

9 A. Prijedor-Sanski Most, yeah. This is Topic. I've found it. That's

10 the area.

11 Q. Now, sir, I'm very sorry.

12 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honours, what I omitted to do was get the

13 witness to show us where Hambarine was before he pointed to the three

14 directions of the shelling.

15 Q. Sir, if you could point out where Hambarine is on the map. And if

16 the audiovisual director could zoom into that area, please.

17 A. That's Hambarine.

18 Q. Zoom out a little.

19 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could you zoom out a little, please. Thank you.

20 Thank you very much. I've finished with that exhibit now.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, if I may, to clarify with the

22 exhibits, the name sheets with the witness name is marked S13 and it's a

23 confidential exhibit, and this map is marked S14.

24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you for the clarification. You may

25 proceed now.

1 MS. SUTHERLAND:

2 Q. Sir, how long did the shelling last?

3 A. The shelling lasted -- well, it started around 12.00 and didn't

4 stop until 6.30 roughly, in the afternoon.

5 Q. During that six and a half hours, was the shelling constant or

6 intermittent?

7 A. The shelling was constant.

8 Q. After the shelling stopped, did any forces approach the village?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What sort of forces?

11 A. Those were Serb military forces armed with tanks, armed personnel

12 carriers and infantry.

13 Q. What did the villages of Hambarine do at this point?

14 A. At that point, the inhabitants of the Hambarine village had to

15 retreat towards the south side, or rather, the woods of Kurevo.

16 Q. Was this men, women, and children that were fleeing to the Kurevo

17 forest?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. The Muslim men that were at the checkpoints, are you aware whether

20 any of them were killed that day?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. How many men were killed?

23 A. Two.

24 Q. Did you spend the night in the Kurevo woods?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Was there anybody left in the village of Hambarine that day?

2 A. No.

3 Q. They had all fled to the woods?

4 A. Yes.

5 MS. SUTHERLAND: If the witness can be shown SK14 again, please.

6 I'm sorry, S14.

7 Q. Sir, can you just point to where the Kurevo woods are, please.

8 A. These are the woods of Kurevo.

9 MS. SUTHERLAND: Can the AV director zoom back a little bit so we

10 can see Hambarine.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So as I said, these are the woods of

12 Kurevo.

13 Q. Sir, a moment ago, I asked you about the shelling in the village

14 of Hambarine. Where was the shelling directed?

15 A. All the houses were shelled in Hambarine, as well as the mosque in

16 Hambarine, the two mosques there.

17 Q. Sir, can you just point to the road leading out from Hambarine to

18 the woods.

19 A. Yes. Hambarine is here. This is the road, this black line. These

20 are the checkpoints through the woods. Through the woods, you can get to

21 Ljubija as well.

22 Q. Sir, can you point to the road where the tanks and infantry were

23 coming towards Hambarine?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Which road is this?

1 A. This is the road that goes from Prijedor towards Ljubija, through

2 Tukovi. It's this road here. So they came from Prijedor via Tukovi, and

3 then took this road towards Hambarine.

4 Q. And the road that you're pointing to has the words -- and excuse

5 me my pronunciation -- Durici just beneath the road. Is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Sir, to your knowledge, were there armed fighters or police in the

8 houses in the village of Hambarine?

9 A. Could you please elaborate a little on your question. Could you

10 please explain that to me.

11 Q. You mentioned a moment ago that the village of Hambarine was being

12 shelled. Where were all the people -- where were all the villagers?

13 A. All the villagers, the women, the children, the adults, they were

14 all in cellars during the shelling.

15 Q. Were there any armed men or police in these houses, or the mosque?

16 A. No.

17 MS. SUTHERLAND: Perhaps, usher, if you could just leave the map

18 on the ELMO.

19 Q. Witness, I don't want to ask you any more questions at the moment

20 about the map.

21 Between the 23rd of May and the 9th of June, did you stay in

22 Ljubija and in Carakovo and the woods between Carakovo and Hambarine?

23 A. Yes.

24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

25 MS. SUTHERLAND:

1 Q. I'm sorry. Can you just point to the village of Carakovo on the

2 map, please. And also to Ljubija.

3 A. This is Carakovo. This is the area of Carakovo. Ljubija is this

4 part here. But there is Donja Ljubija and Ljubija, i.e. Gornji Ljubija.

5 Q. Just before we move on, I'm sorry to go back to Hambarine and the

6 shelling, was there any artillery or any gunfire coming out of the village

7 of Hambarine when the army was shelling the village?

8 A. No. We only had our defence point there, which defended the

9 approach to Hambarine with infantry.

10 Q. Approximately how many people were at this checkpoint?

11 A. About ten.

12 Q. If I can move on now, on the 9th of June, did you return home for

13 food?

14 A. Yes, I did.

15 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, if we can go into private session

16 very briefly for the witness to name some relatives of his.

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Private session.

18 [Private session]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [Open session]

7 MS. SUTHERLAND: Are we in open session?

8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes.

9 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you.

10 Q. What, if anything, did you see happen to this cafe?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What did you see?

13 A. That day, I saw a red truck arriving in front of his shop or

14 house. I saw four soldiers come out. They were armed. They went into

15 the shop and the cafe. They took the goods from the shop, from the cafe.

16 They took all the musical instruments from the cafe, which were used in

17 the cafe before the war.

18 Q. Sir, how were these men dressed?

19 A. Those people were wearing drab olive uniforms. Two of the four

20 wore helmets on their heads.

21 Q. Did you recognise any of these men?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Did anything further happen to this cafe?

24 A. The next day, the cafe was set on fire, together with the shop and

25 the house.

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1 Q. Were you told the names of these men that had been to the shop the

2 day before?

3 A. At that time, no. But later, I found out that jobs like this were

4 done by people from Ljeskare.

5 Q. Where is that situated?

6 A. Ljeskare is in the direction of Prijedor-Ljubija immediately after

7 Hambarine, to be more precise. It borders on Hambarine.

8 Q. Is it to the upper side of the Prijedor-Ljubija Road?

9 A. It's after Hambarine, when you go from Prijedor towards Ljubija,

10 Ljeskare is after Hambarine.

11 Q. Sir, on the 11th of June, did you move to a relative's garage?

12 A. Yes.

13 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, can we go into private session just

14 for a moment.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: What's the reason, please?

16 MS. SUTHERLAND: Because the witness will name his relatives.

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Private session.

18 [Private session]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

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10 [Open session]

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Confirmed.

12 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you.

13 Q. Did you leave the garage that day?

14 A. On that day, I went to the garage together with my brother (redacted)

15 and my cousin (redacted).

16 Q. Did you leave the garage that day?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And did you see your mother later on that day?

19 A. After 15 or 20 minutes, I saw her. She was carrying my child

20 under two years of age. And she told me that my brother had been killed

21 in that garage.

22 Q. Without mentioning his name, was this your older brother?

23 A. Yes. That was my older brother [redacted]. I didn't mention the name

24 when you asked me who was in the garage --

25 Q. I'm sorry, sir. We're in open session. Can you --

1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The name will be redacted at 16.16.24.

2 MS. SUTHERLAND:

3 Q. Sir, can you tell the Court what your mother told you happened in

4 the garage that day without mentioning the names of your relatives,

5 please.

6 A. I was told that my brother was killed, and that my wife was

7 wounded.

8 Q. Were you told who the perpetrators were?

9 A. I was told that this was committed by four Serb police officers

10 who broke into the garage and killed my brother.

11 Q. Were you told what they were wearing?

12 A. I was told that they wore blue uniforms, light blue shirts and

13 darker trousers, navy blue trousers.

14 Q. Was anybody in the garage armed that day?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Before you left the garage, what clothes was everyone wearing,

17 civilian clothes or military clothes?

18 A. They were all in civilian clothes.

19 Q. I want to ask you some questions now about an incident in the

20 village of Behlici on the 1st of July, 1992. Do you recall that date?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Where were you on the 1st of July, 1992?

23 A. I was in Carakovo.

24 Q. What did you see?

25 A. On that day, a car came to Carakovo, to the Behlici settlement,

1 and Aziz Behlic was killed at that time. Hasan Osmancevic was wounded.

2 The son of Hasan Osmancevic was also killed. The son of Aziz Behlic was

3 wounded. Azra Behlic was wounded. Another young man was killed also

4 whose name I don't know.

5 Q. How far away were you from this incident?

6 A. I was about 250 to 300 metres away.

7 Q. How were these people killed and wounded?

8 A. Those people were killed by firearms from an automatic weapon.

9 Q. Did you recognise any of the people that perpetrated these crimes?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Who were they?

12 A. Mico Jurusic and Mladjo Jurusic.

13 Q. How long had you known these people for?

14 A. I knew them a year or two before the war. We didn't have too much

15 contact privately, socially. I know them from work. I used to see them

16 at work.

17 Q. What were they wearing on this day?

18 A. They wore blue uniforms, light-blue shirt, and darker trousers.

19 Q. Was this a police uniform?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. The people that were at Aziz Behlic's house, what were they

22 wearing?

23 A. Civilian clothes.

24 Q. What were their ethnicity?

25 A. Bosniaks.

1 Q. Were they armed?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Sir, did you stay in the woods until the 8th of July, 1992?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Were you picked up in a car that day?

6 A. I was captured on the 8th of July and taken in a vehicle to

7 Keraterm.

8 Q. Did you know the persons that picked you up?

9 A. No.

10 Q. How were they dressed?

11 A. They wore camouflage uniforms.

12 Q. Were they armed?

13 A. They were armed. They had automatic rifles.

14 Q. How were you dressed?

15 A. I was in civilian clothes.

16 Q. Were you armed?

17 A. No.

18 Q. When you arrived in Keraterm -- first of all, what is Keraterm?

19 A. Before the war, Keraterm was a ceramic tiles factory. During the

20 war, it was a camp for Bosniak Muslims.

21 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I have a number of photographs here

22 that we would like to put in as one exhibit. They total 42 photographs.

23 I want to show the witness only two of them today. Can they be marked as

24 one exhibit, S15, and then each photograph has an ERN number, so they are

25 quite distinct photographs.

1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes. The registry agrees, so I do.

2 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I have the bundle of photographs

3 here for the registry. I've taken the two out that I wish to show the

4 witness today. So, if the witness can be shown this photograph. The

5 Defence have been provided with a copy of these photographs, Your Honour.

6 Just the first one.

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May we please call them S15-1, -2, and so on.

8 MS. SUTHERLAND:

9 Q. Witness, there is a photograph on the ELMO beside you which has an

10 ERN number 02006265. Can you please tell me what's shown in that

11 photograph.

12 A. This photograph depicts Keraterm, the entrance to Keraterm.

13 Behind, you can see the chimney from the brick factory behind it.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honours, we will provide an index to these

16 42 photographs to the registry. We have to the Defence, and we will give

17 one to the registry as well. At the moment, it's marked 8B.

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: But please, no confusion. In the order of

19 appearance, it may be S15-1.

20 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Q. Sir, when you arrived at Keraterm, did you see Mico Jurusic in the

22 camp?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. What was he doing?

25 A. I saw him next to a truck that had just arrived, and he was busy

1 with this truck.

2 Q. Do you know whose truck it was?

3 A. The truck belonged to Samir Music from Carakovo.

4 Q. What was Samir's ethnicity?

5 A. Samir was a Bosniak Muslim.

6 Q. Were you interrogated in Keraterm?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Were you mistreated in any way?

9 A. When I was interrogated, I was hit with a police baton in the

10 face.

11 Q. What were you questioned about?

12 A. They asked me where I had been, in which woods. They asked me

13 where I was caught, where I was going.

14 Q. Were you beaten again that day in Keraterm?

15 A. On that day, I was beaten again. In a different place in

16 Keraterm.

17 Q. Did you know the person who beat you?

18 A. Out of four or five men, I didn't know anyone personally. But by

19 describing them later, I found out that one of these men were known. And

20 I found out his name.

21 Q. What was this person's name, and can you please give a description

22 of this person?

23 A. This person's last name was Banovic. I don't know his name. It's

24 Predrag or Nenad. But he's a Banovic. He was short, of dark complexion,

25 and dark, in fact, black, long hair, combed to the back. He wore

1 eyeglasses above his eyes, and he used them to keep his hair combed back.

2 Q. Of what build was he?

3 A. He was of slight build, short. Not very strong.

4 Q. What was he wearing?

5 A. He was wearing a camouflage uniform.

6 Q. What were you beaten with?

7 A. I was beaten with a knuckle duster, with a police truncheon, with

8 chains, with various types of coiled wire, rifle butts. I was kicked by

9 people wearing boots.

10 Q. Where were you taken after this beating?

11 A. After this beating, I was taken to a room filled with other

12 inmates.

13 Q. What was the ethnicity of these inmates?

14 A. Those inmates were Bosniaks.

15 Q. What was the condition of the people in this room?

16 A. The people in that room were in very bad shape, beaten up, black

17 and blue. Many of them were moaning and crying, asking for water. Some

18 people were difficult to recognise. There were many of them in that room.

19 There was not room enough even to sit down, let alone lie down.

20 Q. Approximately how many people -- I'm sorry. Approximately how

21 many people were in that room?

22 A. It's difficult to estimate, but I would say about 200, although I

23 stress it's difficult to estimate. But the room was packed, and my

24 assessment is about 200.

25 Q. Were you ever told why you were being detained in Keraterm?

1 A. No, never.

2 Q. The next morning, were you taken to the Omarska camp?

3 A. The next morning, I was driven away to Omarska camp on a bus.

4 Q. What sort of bus?

5 A. It was a civilian bus that had been used before the war for

6 civilian purposes, for the transport of passengers.

7 Q. Did the bus have a logo or writing on the outside of the bus?

8 A. I think it had the logo of Autotransport Prijedor.

9 Q. How many persons were on this bus with you?

10 A. There were 50 to 60 people there with me.

11 Q. I'm sorry. If I can just go back to Keraterm, were you aware of

12 which room you were detained in Keraterm for that one day and night?

13 A. I was in Room Number 2.

14 Q. You were detained in Omarska from the 9th of July until the 6th of

15 August, 1992. Is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Were you detained first in the white house for approximately 12 to

18 15 days?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. How many persons were in the room where you were?

21 A. There were at least 60 to 70 people approximately in that one

22 room.

23 Q. Were you interrogated at Omarska?

24 A. Yes, I was.

25 Q. On how many occasions?

1 A. I was interrogated twice.

2 Q. The first time you were interrogated, where was that?

3 A. That was in a different room, above the canteen that had operated

4 before the war. And I was interrogated in an office upstairs.

5 MS. SUTHERLAND: Can the witness be shown the second photograph in

6 that bundle.

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: This may be, then, S15-2.

8 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour. That has been ERN number

9 00409596.

10 Q. What is shown in that photograph?

11 A. You can see the Omarska camp on this picture.

12 Q. Is that how you remember it?

13 A. Yes.

14 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honours, this is a photograph of a model of

15 the Omarska camp. The model is in the basement of the Tribunal, and it

16 certainly wouldn't fit inside this Court.

17 Q. Witness, can you just point out the buildings that are on that

18 photograph, please.

19 A. This is the white house to which I was brought on the 9th of July.

20 Those are the rooms with the canteen downstairs, while upstairs, there

21 were offices or rooms where inmates were interrogated. Downstairs, on

22 this other side, there were more rooms for inmates. This is the entrance

23 to the canteen. And if you take the stairs, you will find the offices on

24 the first floor.

25 Q. Sir, the building that you're pointing to, as you look at the

1 photograph, is the littler of the two red buildings, and it's the building

2 to your right. Is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And the entrance that you just pointed to was on the left side of

5 that building?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do you know what the larger red building is?

8 A. Before the war, these were hangars and garages used for the repair

9 of heavy machinery operated in the Omarska mine. So these hangars were

10 used to store the machines, the equipment, and tools needed for repairs.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 Do you know when you were taken for interrogation who interrogated

13 you?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Were you mistreated during the first interrogation?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. How were you mistreated?

18 A. Some questions were put to me, and I was beaten by those two men.

19 I had nothing to tell them or to confess, but I got beaten nevertheless. I

20 was beaten up there. I was in very bad physical condition.

21 Q. What sort of questions were you being asked?

22 A. Some odd questions. I have to apologise, but I have to say this:

23 Those were absolutely stupid, nonsensical questions. And whatever I

24 answered, I would be beaten up. No matter what I said, whether I said yes

25 or no, I would still get beaten. They asked me if I knew Mirza Mujadzic.

1 However, they knew him better than I did. If I said I didn't know him, I

2 would be beaten because I said no. If I said I knew him, I got beaten

3 again, and they would say, in addition: "You were his collaborator, you

4 had planned this together in advance." Briefly, if I said I knew him, it

5 was their version that I was the same as Mirza Mujadzic, and his

6 collaborator. If I said I didn't know him, I was lying. Both ways, I got

7 beaten, no matter what I answered.

8 Q. Sir, who was Mirza Mujadzic?

9 A. Mirza Mujadzic was a doctor before the war, a physician. And I

10 know him as a doctor. He had many patients. And it's true that Mirza

11 Mujadzic was the president of the SDA for the Prijedor municipality. That

12 is common knowledge. Everybody knows that throughout Bosnia-Herzegovina,

13 the entire political arena of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the entire

14 parliament. Mirza Mujadzic was elected lawfully and was a deputy to the

15 BH parliament.

16 Q. Thank you, sir.

17 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honours, I notice the time and that you

18 wanted to stop sitting at 5.00 p.m. today. I have perhaps another 20

19 minutes worth of questions with the witness. Is it at all possible -- I

20 don't know how long cross-examination would take with this witness, but

21 are we able to indulge the interpreters and yourself to sit any longer

22 today, so that this witness may be able to go home?

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I really believe it's better that we can

24 concentrate on the single questions, and when we have time enough for the

25 cross-examination. And therefore I would appreciate when we would stop

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1 for today and go on the next time with the direct examination and then the

2 cross-examination. Is it correct for you?

3 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes. I just hope the witness's employer will

4 indulge us.

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then, let's call it a day for today. And we

6 resume as scheduled, Wednesday morning, 9.00.

7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

8 4.50 p.m., to be reconvened on

9 Wednesday, the 1st day of May, 2002,

10 at 9.00 a.m.

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