1 Wednesday, 31 July 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.21 p.m.

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Very good afternoon to everybody. Today we

7 don't want to lose any time, so therefore the decision on the admission of

8 the documents has been filed. It will not be read out, just to tell the

9 Defence that in case the Defence is of the opinion that appeal is

10 appropriate, then having reviewed the reasons for the appeal, in

11 principle, the Trial Chamber is prepared to grant a certification. But we

12 shouldn't hesitate any longer. And we should try whatever we can to

13 conclude the hearing of Mr. Sivac today. But let's try and find out

14 whether it's possible or not.

15 So, please, start with your cross-examination.

16 MR. LUKIC: Good afternoon, Your Honours.

17 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, want to call the case? I'm sorry.

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sometimes it's better to have for the record,

19 yes, I want to be very brief. Yes, it's better to have the case and the

20 appearances.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is Case Number

22 IT-97-24-T, the Prosecutor versus Milomir Stakic.

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And the appearances, for the record.

24 MR. KOUMJIAN: Good afternoon, Nicholas Koumjian, Ann Sutherland,

25 Michael McVicker, with Ruth Karper for the Prosecution.

1 MR. LUKIC: Once again, good afternoon, Your Honours. Branko

2 Lukic assisted by Mr. Danilo Cirkovic for the Defence.

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you, Mr. Koumjian, for this reminder.

4 Okay, please start.

5 WITNESS: NUSRET SIVAC [Resumed]

6 [Witness answered through interpreter]

7 Cross-examined by Mr. Lukic:

8 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Sivac.

9 A. Good afternoon.

10 Q. My name is Branko Lukic, and together with Mr. John Ostojic, whom

11 yesterday you had an opportunity to see, I represent Dr. Stakic before

12 this Tribunal as his Defence counsel.

13 Since the two of us speak the same language, our speed can

14 sometimes cause problems. So when I ask a question, would you be so kind

15 and wait a little before you proceed with giving your answer so that the

16 interpreters can have enough time to interpret.

17 In the cross-examination, we have to give references, that is,

18 numbers of pages of previous statements or previous transcripts. Do not

19 be confused with that because this is just for the purposes of the record

20 and pursuant to a request of the Chamber.

21 Are you ready to proceed?

22 A. Yes, I am.

23 Q. Sometimes when I'm waiting, it doesn't mean that I'm not happy

24 with your answer. I'm just waiting for the interpreters to interpret what

25 you have said.

1 I should like to begin with some questions concerning your

2 testimony given yesterday and the day before yesterday. And after that,

3 we will have to try and clear up some other issues concerning a few other

4 documents. So first of all, I would like us to discuss your testimony of

5 Monday, which is the 58th day of the trial. On page 6.559, line 1 and

6 onwards, you mentioned the fact that the chief of the public security

7 service was never a Muslim. Hasan Talundzic was appointed chief of SUP at

8 that time. Are you familiar with Mr. Sead Besic? Does the name ring a

9 bell?

10 A. Yes, I am. I would like to categorise him as a reserve Muslim.

11 He was married to a Serb woman. He used to work for the State Security

12 Service. And he was part of the political nomenclature at that time. He

13 was a member of the League of Communists, and I do not consider him to be

14 a true Muslim, which is something that he showed as well during the ethnic

15 cleansing of Prijedor. While all residents of Prijedor were being taken

16 to the camps, he was actively working for the State Security Service in

17 Banja Luka. After these events, he was pensioned off.

18 Q. However, is he a Bosniak by ethnicity?

19 A. I don't think he is. He declared himself as a Yugoslav, which was

20 a kind of asset or a recommendation which was quite useful for the

21 political functions that he had. He seemed to have been ashamed of his

22 ethnic background.

23 Q. He said he was part of the political nomenclature of the then

24 League of Communists.

25 A. Yes. He moved from one office to another within the Prijedor

1 Municipality. I think he served in all of these political offices. He

2 was even at leading positions at various local companies. This is

3 something that it was thought that he deserved, because he was a willing

4 pupil of the gentlemen from the communist party committee.

5 In Prijedor, it was easier to negotiate with any Serb occupying

6 any significant political function than with Sead Besic.

7 Q. At that time, was it not customary for the political officials to

8 move from one office to another? It was not characteristical only for

9 Sead Besic.

10 A. Well, to a certain extent, you are -- you are correct. It was

11 necessary for you to be politically suitable at that time and not

12 necessarily competent. As I said, if you were part of the nomenclature

13 and if you were willing to carry out all the decisions and directives

14 issued by the communist party, there should have been no problem for you,

15 as a local politician, to move from one political office to another.

16 Regardless of the fact that such people often had ample opportunity to

17 destroy the local company that they were working at and to mess up things

18 generally speaking, and that is what happened with -- that was the case

19 with Sead Besic.

20 Q. Sead Besic, was he ever chief of the Prijedor SUP before

21 Hasan Talundzic?

22 A. Yes, he had just come from the Energopetrol company, he had worked

23 there previously, and he was the head of the Prijedor SUP for a while, for

24 a brief period of time. And when the national parties came to power, he

25 moved aside and left for Banja Luka, in order to continue his work there

1 for the State Security Service.

2 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, could I ask that the witness be

3 requested to pause after he hears the question to allow me to hear the

4 translation. I haven't yet had an objection, but if I do have an

5 objection to the question, I have to hear the translation first, and also

6 it gives the interpreters a chance to catch up before he answers.

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Indeed, it would be kind. And I just move

8 forward to requesting the same, it would be kind enough if both of you try

9 not to overlap and to slow down a little bit. Thank you.

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. On the same page, 6.559, you claim that it was not possible for

12 anyone to become a chief of SUP in the Prijedor Municipality without his

13 appointment having previously been approved by the president of the

14 municipality and other authorities and bodies in the local government in

15 Prijedor Municipality. My question in relation to this would be as

16 follows: Was this something that was specific only for Prijedor, or is it

17 your testimony that this was the same case with any other municipality in

18 Bosnia and Herzegovina?

19 A. While I was working for the security service, this principle was

20 applied in every municipality in Bosnia and Herzegovina. I don't think I

21 said that it was the president of the municipality who had to issue an

22 approval for the appointment of the security services chief. I think I

23 was referring to the Municipal Assembly. Of course, the Municipal

24 Assembly is always headed by a president.

25 In addition to all other necessary recommendations and approvals,

1 after the multiparty elections, it was necessary for such a person to be a

2 member of one of these parties, and also to be suitable for this type of

3 office. That would have been the main asset, the main recommendation.

4 Whether the individual in question was professionally competent for this

5 type of job, that didn't seem to be very important.

6 Q. The Municipal Assembly, or its president, were they able to issue

7 orders to the chief of SUP?

8 A. Well, they were required to cooperate closely. I stated

9 previously that, generally speaking, the security situation in the

10 territory of the municipality is within the competence of the chief of

11 this service, who, in turn, was required to report on the security station

12 to the president of the municipality, if they wanted to have the situation

13 and the municipality in general to function adequately.

14 Q. Did they have --

15 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter can't follow the speakers at

16 this speed. Could the counsel be asked to repeat his question.

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I ask you again to slow down and not to

18 overlap. But first of all to slow down. I know it seems to be a little

19 bit unnatural when one wants to give an answer, but here it's necessary.

20 Otherwise, we can't understand either the question or the answer, and it's

21 necessary.

22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Sir, can you tell me if the Municipal Assembly and its president

24 could, at the time, issue any order to anyone within the Prijedor SUP?

25 A. Of course they could.

1 Q. Will you now tell us whether this was provided for in the law on

2 internal affairs or in the rules of procedure of the State Security

3 Service or the statute of the Prijedor Municipality or any other statutory

4 document, statutory provision?

5 A. Well, I have to admit that I was never very much involved with

6 these procedural and statutory matters. But I know, from previous period

7 of time, while I was still working for the security service, that the

8 chief of the security service was appointed by the republican secretary.

9 But upon a recommendation of the local level, that is, the Municipal

10 Assembly and other relevant organisations. That is, the local committee

11 of the League of Communists, the organisation of war veterans, and some

12 other similar organisations.

13 Q. Very well. I'm not going to dwell on the statutory aspect of this

14 problem. I just want to know whether the Municipal Assembly or its

15 president were able to act or order something which would have not been

16 provided for in any relevant law?

17 A. No.

18 Q. On page 6.560, you told us the following: "Until Milos Jankovic

19 was appointed --"

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Page 6560?

21 MR. LUKIC: [In English] Line 12.

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I have a blank page, 6560. It continues after

23 6559 with 6561.

24 MR. KOUMJIAN: I think it's at 14.37 or 14.48, somewhere in that

25 range.

1 MR. LUKIC: I don't have time here, and I took it from our laptop

2 from our table. So it may cause great problems today if these numbers do

3 not match.

4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes. Therefore it's only fair to ask you to

5 continue. Let's find out if we can work on this basis.

6 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, can you give me the page number you have

7 which starts on line 11 "my service was one of the most delicate

8 services."

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: 6561.

10 MR. LUKIC: 61. So for now, we have to add only one page.

11 Q. [Interpretation] On line 12 of the page we just indicated, you

12 stated the following: "Up until the time when Milos Jankovic was

13 appointed chief of the security service, there had been a most rigorous

14 control as to the number of employees in terms of their ethnic

15 background." Sir, can you tell us in what year Milos Jankovic was

16 appointed to this office?

17 A. I think he was appointed to this office sometime in 1982 or 1983.

18 I cannot remember the exact year. I'm sorry.

19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Just the quotation would be correct "their

20 national background."

21 MR. LUKIC: [In English] In our country, it's the same.

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I can read only the English version. Yes.

23 MR. LUKIC: Okay.

24 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, can you tell us whether at that time,

25 from 1982 until 1989 when you left this job, was the League of Communists

1 in power during that period of time?

2 A. Yes, but the party was already disintegrating. You know that

3 after Tito's death, it was merely -- it was only a formal organisation.

4 Q. Is it your testimony that during that period of time, the

5 so-called national key principle was not being respected?

6 A. Well, it really depended. Sometimes, in respect of certain

7 offices, it was, and sometimes it wasn't. In my service, there were eight

8 to ten employees, and ethnic background of the employees was always taken

9 into account because of the specificity and the particularity of this job.

10 Q. On page 6563, you speak about a division of villages. You told us

11 that the railway line or the main road divided the area so that the

12 villages at the foot of Kozara Mount were mostly pro-partisan, whereas the

13 villages on the south side of the railway line were mostly pro-Chetnik.

14 Did you have Serb villages in mind when you spoke about this division,

15 that is, that the Serb villages were divided into pro-partisan and

16 pro-Chetnik villages?

17 A. Yes, it was an imaginary line, of course, something that we

18 learned about in school. We had to listen for about 50 years that the

19 Chetniks never set foot in Maricka, Jelicka, and other villages of the

20 area towards Manjaca. That is, that the area that there were a lot of

21 pro-Chetniks in the area of Manjaca at the time.

22 Q. Were there any partisans there in the area of Manjaca?

23 A. No, not as far as I know.

24 Q. Were there any partisans in Maricka?

25 A. No. Let me tell you, in the area of Maricka, Jelisca, and

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1 Omarska, there was only one monument to a man who had fought fascists. I

2 think his name was Brane Prokopic, and his monument, that is, the monument

3 dedicated to him, was located in Omarska. A school was called after him

4 there. I think that he was active somewhere in the area of Belgrade or

5 Zemun, not in the area of Omarska and Maricka.

6 Q. Is there a partisan cemetery in Omarska?

7 A. Their Honours should know that in 1944, the communist party and

8 Tito, its leader, issued a decree, an amnesty, so to speak, whereby all

9 Chetniks were pardoned for their sins in the Second World War. Some of

10 them moved over to partisans and fought with them until the end of the

11 war, thereby securing for themselves very decent partisan pensions that

12 they enjoyed until the rest of their lives. And I think that this

13 monument was erected to the memory of these people.

14 Q. Do you know this, or is that what you think?

15 A. Well, that's what I learned in school. I went to high school, and

16 well, I don't know what school you attended.

17 Q. Do you know that Dr. Stakic's grandfather had his name inscribed

18 at Mrakovica as a partisan who was killed?

19 A. Well, I can tell you something about that which might disappoint

20 you. For many years, I wrote articles about the memorial on Mount Kozara.

21 When this memorial was erected, the names of over 10.000 so-called

22 partisan fighters were engraved there, but among them were Chetniks, who

23 in 1944 were pardoned and who passed over to the partisan side. Those

24 names up there were collected from all the municipalities gravitating

25 toward Banja Luka and Prijedor. Maybe Milomir Stakic's grandfather was a

1 Chetnik for a time, and then in 1944, crossed over to the partisan side.

2 I don't know really what his grandfather's story is.

3 Q. Was the same sort of amnesty proclaimed for the Ustasha?

4 A. I think it was.

5 Q. Thank you. On page 6.568, you speak of an announcement read out

6 over Radio Prijedor, line 14 forward. You say that the announcement was

7 that the SDS had taken over power with the help of the army and the

8 police. Was that actually read out, or was this your conclusion? And was

9 the same announcement published in the next issue of the Kozarski Vjesnik

10 newspaper?

11 A. I don't know what sort of announcement was published in the

12 Kozarski Vjesnik, but I remember well that after the takeover of power, a

13 lot of announcements were read out and a lot of instructions as to how the

14 population was expected to behave. I don't know which announcement you

15 are referring to.

16 Q. I'm talking about the announcement on the takeover of power.

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sorry to interrupt. You are putting the things

18 together. The sentence on the announcement, I can't find this kind of --

19 MR. LUKIC: [In English] Line 23, 22 and 23.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: This is the issue. There, the witness stated

21 that there was a total chaos in the municipality, and that that was the

22 reason why the people from the SDS assisted by the military and the police

23 had carried out a military coup, and that they had taken control of all of

24 the positions and so on. So, it's not related to the announcement as

25 such.

1 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I'll move on.

2 Q. [Interpretation] On page 6.569, line 9, you say: "The listeners

3 of Radio Prijedor were able to hear the new president of the municipality

4 of Prijedor, Mr. Milomir Stakic, who, in his speech, repeated everything

5 that had already been said in the announcement I mentioned." Was

6 Dr. Stakic interviewed or did he read out the announcement?

7 A. Sir, as far as I can remember, Mr. Stakic read out the

8 announcement. But he changed it a little. He mitigated it somewhat, made

9 it more acceptable.

10 Q. If the journalist interviewing him said something different, would

11 he be lying?

12 A. Let me tell you: I didn't hear an interview with Mr. Stakic.

13 This was an announcement he made to the citizens of Prijedor directly. He

14 simply read out the text which had been prepared for him in the Crisis

15 Staff probably. It was probably done by Milenko Rajlic, his right-hand

16 man, who wrote those pamphlets and all the other material that was read

17 out on behalf of the Crisis Staff on Radio Prijedor.

18 Q. That's why I asked you if the journalist who was in the studio

19 with Dr. Stakic were to say that Dr. Stakic did not read out the

20 announcement, would he be lying.

21 A. Yes, he would be lying.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 Do you know about a session of the assembly of the Municipality of

24 Prijedor held on the 16th of May, 1992, on the day when Prijedor was

25 liberated and this was a solemn session?

1 A. I don't know, and at that time, I was not interested in this

2 because on the 30th of April, there was a takeover of power. And the

3 people who took over power with the help of the army and the police, they

4 had staged a coup. And as far as I was concerned, this event was no

5 longer what it had been before. And this was not only my opinion, but the

6 opinion of all the other non-Serbs who lived in the municipality of

7 Prijedor.

8 Q. Do you know about a session of the Serbian Assembly of the

9 Municipality of Prijedor held on the 20th of May, 1992?

10 A. As I said, my only information about these events was from the

11 Kozarski Vjesnik and Radio Prijedor. Let me clarify: As early as March

12 1992, my cooperation with the Sarajevo television station had been blocked

13 totally. On the airwaves of Radio Sarajevo you could hear only a

14 correspondent from Radio Prijedor who was able to use the radio to send

15 his reports, and there were no opportunities for us to send any film to

16 the television in Sarajevo. The studio in Banja Luka we used to send

17 images to Sarajevo was in the hands of the Serbian party and their

18 supporters, and we were not allowed to use a videolink to send images to

19 Sarajevo. All of a sudden, the studio of Sarajevo Television which was

20 located in Banja Luka became the studio of the Serbian television of

21 Bosanska Krajina. And this happened overnight.

22 Q. Was there a Crisis Staff of the Municipal Assembly of Prijedor,

23 and did it exist at the same time as the Serbian Assembly of the

24 Municipality of Prijedor, or did one follow the other?

25 A. The assembly of the Municipality of Prijedor had to have a Crisis

1 Staff.

2 Q. In your view, they existed in parallel, both the Crisis Staff of

3 the Serbian assembly and the assembly of the municipality?

4 A. No, no. We have to clarify this. You have to make this clear to

5 me.

6 Q. I will try.

7 A. You know that in January 1992 -- no, let me go back to 1991, late

8 1991. Had Dusan Jankovic then been the legally elected police chief in

9 Prijedor and the deputy of Hasan Talundzic, with the help of his

10 collaborators and under the eye of Simo Drljaca, in November, he started

11 establishing a Serbian police force, a Serbian security service. In

12 January 1992, and this was all well-known, although it was supposed to be

13 secret, the Serbian Municipality of Prijedor was established. And in

14 April, I think it was the 14th of April, 1992, the holders of the main

15 positions in the Serbian assembly -- in the Serbian Municipality of

16 Prijedor were appointed. This is really absurd. Dusan Jankovic, Milomir

17 Stakic, they were legally elected. They were legally appointed by the

18 government which was composed of the SDA and the SDS, but at the same

19 time, they worked on establishing parallel Serbian institutions without

20 even concealing the fact. This is absurd. It's nonsensical, that a

21 person should hold a certain post, but do his best to sabotage, to

22 undermine, the institution where they are performing their duties in

23 order, to prepare a takeover of power and everything else that was to

24 follow.

25 Q. I must go back to the question I put to you. Perhaps it was not

1 sufficiently clear. Do you know whether at the same time the Crisis Staff

2 of the Municipal Assembly of Prijedor existed at the same time as the

3 Municipal Assembly or did one come after the other in a time sequence? Do

4 you know this?

5 A. I don't.

6 Q. In the Prijedor SUP after the takeover of power, was there a

7 Crisis Staff?

8 A. The Crisis Staff was set up as soon as power was handed over. The

9 Serbian Crisis Staff, which excluded the others, and all the posts were

10 assigned to Serbs.

11 Q. It seems that again, I was not clear enough. Within the framework

12 of the Prijedor SUP, was a Crisis Staff established?

13 A. Only within the Prijedor SUP?

14 Q. Yes.

15 A. It was some sort of coordination committee which included people

16 holding posts in the security service. How this committee or staff was

17 established, well, it wasn't a real staff. It was simply to facilitate

18 the coordination of the various police stations that had been set up in

19 1991 by Dusan Jankovic with the help of his associates who organised the

20 Serbian security service.

21 Q. I'm asking you all this to make it clearer to you because when you

22 said on page 6.569 that on the 12th of May, 1992, Ranko Mijic told you

23 that he had been issued an order by the Serb authorities and the Crisis

24 Staff to have your equipment taken away, I want to put it to you that the

25 Crisis Staff of the Municipality of Prijedor did not exist before the 22nd

1 of May, 1992. That is why I'm asking you these questions. You may be

2 referring to some other Crisis Staff.

3 A. That's just it. Ranko Mijic didn't tell me which Crisis Staff.

4 He just said: "The Crisis Staff." And in view of the fact that, well, I

5 wasn't there to see whom he had consulted. Whether it was a staff in

6 Banja Luka or somewhere else, I don't know.

7 Q. Thank you. On page 6.572, line 18, you say that announcements on

8 Radio Prijedor were read out by announcers whose voices you knew, "Senija

9 Dzafic, a Muslim, Jadranka Vejo, unfortunately also a Muslim." Do you

10 consider that the people who remained and worked under the Serbian

11 authorities were Prijedor are traitors?

12 A. Some of them, yes. But only those who while performing their job

13 committed crimes or actively took part in the actions that led to the

14 disappearance of their own people. Sead Besic is one of those who

15 betrayed his own people. He was formerly in the League of Communists in

16 Prijedor. He was in charge of staffing there.

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Just for clarification, the quotation is to be

18 found on 6.573 in this case. It was correctly quoted.

19 MR. LUKIC: [In English] Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Q. [Interpretation] At the bottom of page 6.573 and the beginning of

21 page 6.574, you say -- rather, you describe the beginning of the attack on

22 Prijedor, or the liberation of Prijedor, on the 30th of May, 1992. You

23 say that the attackers or the liberators, depending on what view you take,

24 were people of Bosniak and the Croat ethnicity, and you say that initially

25 they were armed only with light infantry weapons. Did this group of

1 people also possess rockets which were allegedly fired on the hotel?

2 A. The group led by Slavko Ecimovic had several Zolja rocket

3 launchers among their weapons. And according to the information I have,

4 and what I learned later on, these Zoljas had been bought from Serbs, a

5 certain number of Serb soldiers returning from the battlefields in

6 Croatia. Only a few of these Zoljas were in working order while all the

7 others were out of order.

8 Q. You, of course, have no personal experience of this, but only

9 learned this through hearsay.

10 A. Yes, I heard this from people who were part of the group that

11 tried to liberate Prijedor.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 A. And who survived.

14 Q. On page 6.575, line 12, you say: "The old town was in flames

15 since the early morning hours." After that day, what condition were the

16 houses in, the buildings, in the old town?

17 A. After that day?

18 Q. Let's say the 31st of May or the 1st of June.

19 A. After that day, there were no buildings left in the old town.

20 There were only ruins.

21 Q. In any case, they were not habitable, these ruins?

22 A. No. Let's take it in chronological order, sir. When the town was

23 set on fire, the old town began to burn when the Serb soldiers and police

24 entered it. And I watched from my flat long columns of elderly people,

25 women, children, and men with white armbands moving down the streets led

1 by a person called Adem Music carrying a white flag. He was a man I knew

2 well. They were carrying bundles, and the Serb soldiers were escorting

3 them on both sides. There was even a tank escorting them. These people

4 were led out of the old town, and then the burning, destruction, and

5 looting continued. By these actions, I mean, the burning and the

6 destruction of the old town, all this was under the command of a man

7 called Supic. I know him well. Before that, he was elected president of

8 some sort of Chetnik youth organisation in Prijedor.

9 Q. Thank you. On the same page, line 19, you say that "both mosques

10 were destroyed and set on fire during the initial attack." Are you

11 referring to the same day?

12 A. Yes, the same day. But it was around noon when Slavko Ecimovic's

13 group and the group of survivors had long left the area of the old town.

14 They went across the Sava, and they went back.

15 Q. For the record, you are probably referring to the Sava -- Sana,

16 not the Sava.

17 A. Yes, I apologise if I misspoke.

18 Q. You were arrested twice in June. Is this correct?

19 A. Yes, it is.

20 Q. The first time it was on the 10th of June or thereabouts?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. When were you arrested for the second time?

23 A. I believe it was sometime around the 20th of June. Again, I'm not

24 sure about the exact date.

25 Q. Around the 20th of June is good enough. Thank you. On both

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1 occasions, you were driven away in a police van.

2 A. That is correct. The first time I was sitting behind the driver

3 and the escort in the glassed-in area, and the second time I was at the

4 back of the van which is completely closed off.

5 Q. How many rows of seats are there in a police van?

6 A. I don't remember. All I remember was that when we were taken in

7 this police van for the second time, there were five of us men. As for

8 the front part, Sifeta Susic and Tesma Elezovic were there, the women who

9 had also been arrested and taken to the camp.

10 Q. In this glassed-in area, how many seats are there? How many

11 people can sit there?

12 A. When I was taken there for the first time, there were four of us.

13 Q. Was it a converted police van or a standard police van?

14 A. No, it was a standard paddywagon, or a black Maria, as they used

15 to call it and while I was in service, it was quite active.

16 Q. In the case against Miroslav Kvocka and others, in the Omarska

17 case, on page 4.102, you stated the following: "Together with me" -- I

18 will read out the English version of your testimony so that the

19 interpretation can be appropriate.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: [Previous translation continues]...

21 MR. LUKIC: [Previous translation continues]... In English line 4

22 and 5.

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes.

24 MR. LUKIC:

25 Q. In the van with me sitting with me at the back side was Omer

1 Kerenovic, Safet Ramadanovic, Ivica Muntijan and myself."

2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: It was the 10th of June.

3 MR. LUKIC: Line 11 through 14, Defence and Prosecution counsel

4 are discussing which date, and it says 10th of June.

5 MR. KOUMJIAN: That's correct, but I don't know if counsel

6 realises that the answer he got in court regarded the 20th of June that

7 Mr. Sivac just testified to.

8 MR. LUKIC: Can you tell me which line he is referring to the 20th

9 of June?

10 MR. KOUMJIAN: Today, I'm sorry, just a few moments ago, your

11 question about how many people were in the van, he was answering regarding

12 the 20th of June, the second arrest, the way I read that.

13 MR. LUKIC: I can clarify it.

14 Q. [Interpretation] It was together with Mr. Omer Kerenovic,

15 Mr. Safet Ramadanovic, and Mr. Ivica Muntijan that you were taken away.

16 What date was it?

17 A. It was the 10th of June, it was my first arrest, and I said we

18 were sitting behind with respect to the driver and the escort. We were

19 not actually sitting in the back part, the rear part of the police van.

20 Q. In this glassed-in area of the van, there were four of you plus

21 two escorts?

22 A. Yes, when we were first taken to the Omarska camp.

23 Q. On page 6.611, line 23, you said the following: "All orders and

24 everything else happening within the camp Omarska was in the competence of

25 Meakic, and later of Miroslav Kvocka."

1 A. This is, again, misrepresentation. I may have inadvertently

2 confused the order of these two commanders in Omarska. First, it should

3 be Miroslav Kvocka, and then Zeljko Meakic.

4 Q. Is it your testimony still today that Miroslav Kvocka was the

5 first commander of the Omarska camp?

6 A. Yes, that is still my testimony.

7 Q. This was also your testimony in the Omarska case?

8 A. Yes, it was.

9 Q. Do you know that this Tribunal has concluded that Miroslav Kvocka

10 had never had this position in the Omarska camp?

11 A. Well, I don't know, after everything that's happened --

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The witness can't comment on the jurisprudence

13 and former discussions of this Tribunal.

14 MR. LUKIC: [In English] Thank you, Your Honour. I withdraw the

15 question.

16 Q. On page 6.612, line 8, that is, beginning from line 6, when asked

17 whether you had talked with Milos Jankovic about your arrest on the 10th

18 of June, you replied: "I saw him after that, and I asked him who had

19 signed my arrest warrant. He said that it could have been signed by

20 anyone in the SUP. That there was a total chaos there, and that most

21 frequently such orders, such warrants, were written by the Crisis Staff

22 and the people such as Simo Drljaca, Dule Jankovic, even Ranko Mijic. As

23 regards my warrant, or the arrest warrant in respect of my sister, I don't

24 know. I have never been able to find out who it was who signed these two

25 arrest warrants."

1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: This was page 6.617.

2 MR. LUKIC: [In English] 1-7?

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes.

4 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Q. Is this the same Milos Jankovic with whom you talked and who had

6 sacked you, with whom you had had a verbal conflict, and even a physical

7 conflict in 1989?

8 A. Yes, that is correct. However, despite all this, Milos and I have

9 maintained contact to this date. He talked to me. He did talk to me

10 after all these events, and when I was released from the camp, he told me

11 that whatever had happened in Prijedor was a result of a crazy situation

12 and that there had been a catharsis in the meantime. He said that he had

13 a total different idea of what would happen in Prijedor and that the

14 chaotic situation that prevailed in Prijedor was taken advantage of by

15 certain individuals. He mentioned Simo Drljaca, Dusan Jankovic, Milomir

16 Stakic, and others as individuals who had enriched themselves amidst this

17 chaos and were actually war profiteers, whereas others didn't gain

18 anything.

19 Q. Did you in any of your numerous statements ever mention this

20 detail?

21 A. I may have mentioned it somewhere. I no longer remember. I

22 indeed gave a large number of statements for the media, for the papers. I

23 think that after all, I tried to protect Milos Jankovic. I didn't want

24 him to have any problems with Serbs with whom he was living in Prijedor.

25 Q. There's something missing in the record, so I have to go back,

1 whether you said "maybe I didn't."

2 A. I don't think I ever mentioned this for the reasons that I just

3 indicated, not only Milos Jankovic but a number of Serbs who were not

4 supporting the pro-fascist policy of the SDS, for the purposes of their

5 safety and because of the fact that they lived there. Maybe one day, I

6 will write a book with the title: "The Good People in Times of Evil."

7 Q. On that occasion, did Milos Jankovic say what Crisis Staff in

8 particular he was referring to?

9 A. No. It was not necessary.

10 Q. On page 6.6 -- I think -- 18, line 17, you spoke about Mile Mutic.

11 You said that he had a military telephone line installed, that he attended

12 meetings of the Crisis Staff, and that he even personally invited

13 residents of Hambarine, Kozarac, and other parts of Prijedor Municipality

14 which were predominantly Muslim to surrender weapons. And that he also

15 told them that Serb authorities were prepared to guarantee their safety.

16 Was Mile Mutic a member of the Crisis Staff?

17 A. Mile Mutic was not a member of the Crisis Staff. However, he

18 closely cooperated with them. And everything that was broadcast over

19 his - I have to tell you - his station, Prijedor radio station, had its

20 origins in the Crisis Staff.

21 Q. Did you ever publish the fact that Mile Mutic was a member of the

22 Crisis Staff?

23 A. It is possible that I did, but it was just a first impression.

24 It's just that I couldn't understand how come that Mile Mutic was doing

25 what he was doing in 1992 in Prijedor, reading these announcements over

1 the Prijedor radio. So I may have thought that he was doing this because

2 he was a member of the Crisis Staff, whereas he was just the chief of the

3 Prijedor radio station and Kozarski Vjesnik. Later on, I inquired and

4 learned that he was not a member of the Crisis Staff, but he did interpret

5 their views very often.

6 MR. LUKIC: [In English] I wouldn't know the page number now

7 probably, it's the fourth page from the back of the Monday, 29th of July,

8 2002, transcript. Sorry, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Let's try to do it this way.

10 MR. KOUMJIAN: I think Mr. Lukic is waiting for the page number.

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: This would be 6.630.

12 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Let's wait what you are quoting. Then I give

14 you the correct number.

15 MR. LUKIC: Asking for your assistance but --

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: No, no, it's okay.

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. On page 6.630, line 24 onwards, you speak about Asmir Crnalic,

19 Vico. You testified about this in the Omarska case as well, and also

20 described it in one of your statements. However, each time, you give a

21 different version. On Monday, you told us that you had seen Asmir

22 Crnalic, that he had suddenly got up without approval of a witness that

23 that he had had a glass or a bottle in his hand, that he was pretending to

24 be drinking water. In relation to this event, in the Kvocka transcript of

25 the 11th of July, 2001, you stated on page 4.098, lines 3 to 4, the

1 following: "Crnalic got the water from the detainees. And he started

2 spitting it out towards the guards." It may seem insignificant at this

3 moment, but can you tell us what happened exactly.

4 A. In the previous case, I think I already indicated that my

5 statement with respect of this event had erroneously been interpreted. I

6 always wanted it -- my testimony to reflect the fact that Crnalic had

7 taken a glass which contained no water, and that it looked as if he was

8 spitting out water in the direction of the guards. He obviously couldn't

9 do it because he didn't have any water. And that's exactly what the

10 problem was. He was not able to get any water.

11 MR. KOUMJIAN: Just to make the record clear, Your Honours, I

12 believe the lines quoted by counsel from the Kvocka case were actually

13 part of the question and not the witness's answer. Then the question,

14 counsel was apparently quoting from a statement.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: It seems to be correct. It starts on page 4097,

16 line 24, the question, and then the answer of the witness starts only on

17 page 4.098, line 22.

18 MR. LUKIC: [In English] I appreciate any kind of assistance with

19 these numbers. Thank you, once again.

20 Q. [Interpretation] Did you actually see how Asmir Crnalic was

21 killed?

22 A. Asmir Crnalic, Vico?

23 Q. Yes, I apologise. Asmir Crnalic.

24 A. After he had been taken to the white house, the guards who had

25 escorted him there were on the way back to the administration building.

1 All of a sudden, we heard a command: "Lie down." And then a burst of

2 gunfire, or was it single shots? I don't remember any more. We saw

3 through a glass wall a guard who was standing at his guard post with his

4 rifle pointing towards the white house. We lay down on our stomachs, and

5 it was our assumption -- the assumption which we were able to confirm

6 later on that he had indeed been killed by this guard who always stood

7 guard on this position, on this post.

8 Q. Did Vico try to run away?

9 A. We didn't see that, nor could we see that. But judging by the

10 position in which his body was at that moment, which was lying outside the

11 white house beneath the window of the first room to the left, and let me

12 tell you, of course it was possible for him to leave the white house, to

13 get out of the white house. But he obviously couldn't run away. There

14 were -- there was a number of guards who were alert all the time. There

15 were actually three rows of guards at all times, and there was also a mine

16 field in between. So it was not possible to escape.

17 Q. On the 12th of November, 1994, in the statement that you gave to

18 the officials of this Tribunal, on page bearing the number, last four

19 digits, 7541, in paragraph 1, you said that "Asmir Crnalic was trying to

20 jump out of the window, and that he had managed to jump out of the window,

21 and then the guards shot him." Is this correct, what you stated in your

22 statement?

23 A. Is this my statement or the transcript from my testimony in the

24 Kvocka case?

25 Q. I was referring to your statement given on the 12th of November,

1 1994. Actually, the statement was given from the 12th to the 16th of

2 November, 1994.

3 A. Well, that was the statement that I gave at the time. As regards

4 any other details --

5 MR. LUKIC: [In English] On page 31, paragraph 2, excuse me.

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sorry, this time, I don't have the statement

7 before me, none of 1994.

8 MR. LUKIC: We have extra copies for everybody, but probably we

9 are going to introduce these statements later, Your Honour. If you

10 wish --

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Of course, it would be of assistance that we,

12 for the record, have the quotations. May the usher please distribute

13 these copies.

14 MR. LUKIC: Would it be an appropriate time, Your Honour --

15 MR. KOUMJIAN: Did counsel quote from the page number from the

16 B/C/S?

17 MR. LUKIC: Yes. Later on, I gave the English version as well.

18 It's page 31, paragraph 2.

19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think it's appropriate to have the break right

20 now until 10 minutes past 4.00.

21 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 --- Recess taken at 3.46 p.m.

23 --- On resuming at 4.18 p.m.

24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please be seated. Please continue.

25 MR. LUKIC: I hope that Your Honours have the statement now. And

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1 do you want me to go back and ask this question again?

2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please, do so.

3 MR. LUKIC: So it's page 31, the second full paragraph, starts

4 from the line 4 in that paragraph and says: "My friend Asmir Crnalic was

5 lying on the pista. He was a mental patient. He needed some water so

6 stood and demanded water. A couple of guards approached. Asmir was

7 having a nervous attack and he was agitated. A prisoner gave him a small

8 bottle of water, and he began spitting it towards the guards. They took

9 him to the white house. The white house had short walls with large glass

10 area so we could see clearly. Then we heard shouts and shooting. `Vico'

11 (Asmir Crnalic) was trying to jump from the window. He did. He had lost

12 control. He did jump down, and the guards shot him dead. The guards said

13 he was shot trying to escape."

14 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Sivac, do you see any difference in the

15 description of this event which you gave in November of 1994 and on

16 Monday?

17 A. Let me tell you, sir: When I recount this event, I sometimes

18 become emotional, perhaps. But I abide by my first statement because in

19 1994, my memory was fresher, and I remembered more details. I see now

20 that these details are very important to you. The essence is true. Asmir

21 Vico was a sick man. He was taken to the white house. When he tried to

22 escape from the white house to the pista, he was shot. At about 7.00,

23 when the guards changed shift, Kos, Krle and Ckalja were on the pista, but

24 whose shift was until 7.00 and whose shift started from 7.00, I don't

25 know. But in essence, this is quite true. Ckalja asked who the man's

1 name was, and I told him. He wrote it down on a piece of paper, and that

2 was the end of this incident.

3 Q. It is true that we are interested in details here. Please

4 understand that a criminal trial is, in fact, concerned with details.

5 A. Yes, I do understand you, but you should understand us also. Ten

6 years is a long time. These events happened long ago, and unfortunately

7 people forget these small details which are important in all this.

8 Q. I will now talk about the transcript of yesterday.

9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I apologise to the Chamber, but on

10 yesterday's transcript, I had to prepare last night, so I have the page

11 numbers starting from 1.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: No problem. We, too.

13 MR. LUKIC: [In English] I hope that at least these pages would

14 match.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please continue.

16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. On page 3 of yesterday's transcript, that is, Day 59 of the trial,

18 in line 8, you say that there were between five and seven hundred

19 prisoners on the pista. Is this estimate correct, or did you give other

20 figures on other occasions?

21 A. This is my approximate estimate. And let me repeat that the

22 number of prisoners on the pista often changed radically.

23 Q. Were there ever 2.000 prisoners on the pista, and is it possible

24 to fit that number of people on the pista?

25 A. Let me repeat: This is just my opinion. I don't know if I ever

1 said that there were 2.000 prisoners on the pista.

2 Q. We will come back to this when we go through the book you

3 published.

4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now, I would like to ask the usher to

5 distribute a document.

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I ask for the source of this draft.

7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Mr. Sivac --

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sorry. I asked for the source of this unsigned

10 draft.

11 MR. LUKIC: [In English] I'll try to establish it, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Are there any objections from the Office of the

13 Prosecutor to work with an unsigned draft?

14 MR. KOUMJIAN: Not yet, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then please proceed. "Volenti non fit injuria,"

16 the one who volunteers doesn't receive injustice. So please proceed.

17 MR. LUKIC: [In English] Thank you, Your Honour.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have an objection, too. I have

19 been given the English version. I don't understand it.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: For the record, does the Defence have a B/C/S

21 version?

22 MR. LUKIC: No, Your Honour, we don't.

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Doesn't make much sense to present this document

24 to the witness.

25 MR. LUKIC: As we used to do, we quote it from the statement.

1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes. But I recall your interventions and

2 objections to drafts and unsigned documents. So please proceed, but don't

3 ask the witness to read on the one or the other page.

4 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Sivac, I do apologise, but I do not have a

6 Bosnian version of this document. The Office of the Prosecutor provided

7 this statement together with the other statements they were kind enough to

8 provide us with. This is an unsigned statement of yours taken on the 30th

9 of March, 1998 when you were interviewed by Mr. Erik Hansen. Do you

10 remember this, sir?

11 A. No, I don't remember.

12 Q. Do you remember that you made a statement to the Tribunal in 1998?

13 A. Believe me, I don't remember. I know that in 1998, I was at the

14 Tribunal, and I was supposed to testify at the Kovacevic trial.

15 Q. On page 4 out of seven pages of that statement, in the second

16 paragraph, it says: [In English] "I never saw Kovacevic in Omarska."

17 [Interpretation] Do you remember that you said this?

18 A. I don't know what Kovacevic is referred to here. Is it Ranko

19 Kovacevic or Mico Kovacevic?

20 Q. Were you asked about Ranko Kovacevic or Mico Kovacevic on that

21 occasion?

22 A. I don't know because I don't remember that. I assume they asked

23 me about Ranko Kovacevic because Ranko Kovacevic used to round up the

24 people who were to be taken to the SUP in Prijedor. So the question was

25 probably whether he ever came to the Omarska camp.

1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sorry to interrupt, but when we work with this

2 draft, chapter 3, it starts: "In my previous statement, I mentioned Mico

3 Kovacevic." And then apparently this Mico Kovacevic is discussed in the

4 following paragraphs. Correct?

5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. On page 3 of your statement, under number 3, that is before the

7 sentence we quoted, it says: [In English] "In my previous statement, I

8 mentioned Mico Kovacevic."

9 [No Interpretation].

10 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honours, if I could just interject, based on

11 Your Honours' comment, as you know this is an unsigned statement that was

12 apparently never read back to the witness. That is part of the purpose of

13 reading back. The order in which things are stated does not necessarily

14 mean that that is the order in which the conversation the witness may have

15 had with the investigator took place. It's to clear up those ambiguities

16 that we read it back, just for Your Honours' to consider in evaluating the

17 probative value of an unsigned statement.

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes, but tendered by the OTP apparently.

19 MR. KOUMJIAN: Not tendered by the OTP.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: It was handed over in preparation of the Bench.

21 MR. KOUMJIAN: On Your Honours' instructions that we hand over any

22 statement. It's not tendered as evidence at all.

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Quite right, I see the distinction quite clear.

24 But then I may ask the usher for clarification to show the witness page 4

25 of this document.

1 In the middle of the page, left-hand side, there you find some

2 handwriting. Is this your handwriting? And the same is true on page 5,

3 if you could have a look on page 5.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I can see, this is not my

5 handwriting.

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The same is true for this remark, 30th of May,

7 1992 on the right-hand side?

8 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, I can clarify. It's my handwriting.

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: It's your handwriting.

10 MR. LUKIC: So by mistake, we photocopied from the --

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think it's now the climax of confusion,

12 working with photocopies, not signed, the remarks of the parties, and --

13 MR. LUKIC: I would ask Your Honour only to ask one more question

14 regarding this document.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please.

16 MR. LUKIC: There is number 11 in this document on page 6. And

17 I'll try to read it so the answer can answer this question.

18 Q. "I also mentioned in my previous statement that my old colleague,

19 Zivko Ecim filmed a delegation visiting Omarska on 28th July. I don't

20 know if Kovacevic was also present. I did not see him. We were lined up

21 in front of the houses and the delegation walked around."

22 [Interpretation] Was this the delegation that visited Omarska and,

23 as you said, this happened before the 20th of July?

24 A. I think this is not the same delegation.

25 Q. Was the Omarska camp visited by one or more delegations?

1 A. Let me tell you: People came to the Omarska camp in some sort of

2 delegations, but I don't know who they were representing there. I don't

3 remember when I made the statement. This is something completely new to

4 me.

5 Q. In your interview with the OTP investigator Suellen Taylor on the

6 26th of April, 2002: [In English] "By Taylor, asked how many delegations

7 came to Omarska. The witness was only aware of one."

8 [Interpretation] You have just told us that you knew about more

9 than one delegation.

10 A. Let me tell you: This interview was made by telephone, and the

11 lady who talked to me on the phone called me when I was in my car, and I

12 thought she was interested only in this political delegation that they

13 were talking about, that they talked about the last time, I mean. And

14 there was only one political delegation, and that was the one belonging to

15 the Autonomous Region of Bosanska Krajina led by Alija [as interpreted].

16 But there were other delegations from Omarska and Prijedor which arrived

17 in the administration building, but I don't know why.

18 Q. Does that mean that you know of several political delegations that

19 visited Omarska?

20 A. I know only of one political delegation which I saw when it

21 arrived, but I know that many informal groups or delegations from Prijedor

22 or from Omarska arrived and visited the camp. In one such delegation from

23 Omarska, there was Mladen Radic, a former policeman from Prijedor, he was

24 at the head of this delegation. And with him were several other people

25 whom I didn't know.

1 Q. Was Radic working at the Omarska camp then?

2 A. No, no. That was not Mladjo Radic, Krkan, it was another Radic.

3 They happen to have the same name. Mladjo Radic known as "Krampov" is a

4 different person who has nothing to do with Mladjo Radic, Krkan. He also

5 worked with me in the State Security Service once. I remember there was a

6 group of people, you say they were a delegation, led by a man called

7 Sisarica, who was from Prijedor. And they came to Omarska, and he was

8 wearing a Chetnik uniform and asking for Alija Ganic. We knew he wasn't

9 there in the camp at all. He was looking for him because he wanted to kill

10 him. He held him responsible or co-responsible for the death of his son.

11 Q. In the statement, you said you never saw Kovacevic present in the

12 camp. However, you make mention of the 28th of July as the date of the

13 visit.

14 A. I am not sure I was able to situate the event in time in this

15 manner, if we are talking about the 28th of July. It's possible that I

16 made a mistake.

17 Q. In the statement that you gave to the officials of the Tribunal on

18 the 12 until the 16th of November, 1994, on page last four digits of the

19 B/C/S version 7543, paragraph 2, English version, page 34, paragraph 1,

20 you indicated that the visit happened on the 28th of July. This statement

21 has been signed.

22 A. Well, it is possible that I made a mistake with the date. In my

23 first interview in 1994, there were many mistakes, and I complained when I

24 first arrived in the Tribunal. The interpreter was a woman by the name of

25 Alma Qureshi, as far as I remember. And I think that it was only when I

1 actually arrived in the Tribunal that I was able to read the entire

2 statement that I had given. And it was during that reading that I

3 realised that it contained a number of mistakes. I remember clearly one

4 sentence. I was speaking in the third person singular, and it was

5 interpreted as if had been said -- in the first person singular. I was

6 trying to explain to the investigator the difference of Muslims in our

7 country and the Muslims in the eastern part of the world, and I said that

8 we European Muslims did not -- that we were not so observant of certain

9 usual customs, that most of us drank alcohol and ate pork.

10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: First of all, apparently the Defence makes

11 reference to paragraph 4 of page 34. And I would ask the Defence to read

12 out the entire paragraph you mentioned.

13 MR. LUKIC: [In English] Yes, Your Honour. I have it marked as the

14 last paragraph. I read it the first. I apologise. And I will read the

15 whole paragraph.

16 "About the 28th of July, we were all taken outside. People from

17 all buildings were assembled outside, and Prcac, Mladic (camp commander)

18 and Tadic, Brk, were there. Brk told us that leaders of the SDA were

19 coming and we were to greet their motorcade with the Serbian salute and

20 sing Serbian songs. We were rehearsed all morning. Then they arrived in

21 five cars with a police troop carrier escort. We were ordered to salute

22 and shout "this is Serbia" and then we had to sing the songs. From the

23 convoy, a former colleague and press men I knew emerged. Zivko Ecim, Rade

24 Mutic, Ostoja Kesar, Slobodan Pesevic, Boro Maric. The politicians and

25 reporters found it very funny that we had been made to sing and salute

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1 like this. The politicians included Radislav Brdjanin, Vojo Kupresanin,

2 Dr. Radislav Vukic (Rale Monstrum), of the SDS Banja Luka. From the

3 Prijedor SDS were Simo Miskovic, Milomir Stakic, Srdo Srdic, Simo Drljaca,

4 Major Radmilo Zeljaja, and Milan Andzic. Zivko, my old colleague, filmed

5 all this. Since I knew all these people from my former work, I was very

6 afraid to be recognised. The limousines were Audi and Mercedes. One Audi

7 was one taken from a colleague, friend, Rudi. There was a green Merc

8 taken from a doctor, and a red one confiscated from a doctor in the camp.

9 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, if I could put on the record my

10 objection to the previous question, where counsel indicated that the

11 witness had stated that the event took place on the 28th of July. The

12 actual quote from the statement is about the 28th of July. The statement

13 was given over two years later, and I think we all need to take into

14 consideration that a person asked two years later about an event normally

15 would have troubles remembering an exact date when that event took place

16 while in a camp.

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please don't comment on this because I asked

18 already to read out, and it reads now from the transcript "about the 28th

19 of July." But I have one additional question.

20 On the top page of the cover page of this, call it, document, one

21 can read: "Dates of interview, 12 to 16 November, 1994." And what does

22 this 5-26-92 on the page mean? You can read it on all the pages.

23 MR. KOUMJIAN: I don't know the answer, but I can speculate. It

24 apparently is a footer which, if you've worked with some common software,

25 it's very common that if you're copying -- I think it's common in these

1 cases for the investigators to take a previous document which already has

2 all of the common information, name, nickname, age, and address, and fill

3 it in for the individual witness. Apparently, someone did not change the

4 footer, although I don't know any footer from the Tribunal would be dated

5 1992 since the Tribunal wasn't in existence at that time. But apparently

6 it's an error in the footer of the document. That's why it shows up on

7 every page.

8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sometimes 5-25-92. But apparently, this can

9 have no real meaning. Probably as we learned earlier, just an invented

10 date. But I take it that this interview was conducted indeed the 12th to

11 16th November, 1994. Is this correct?

12 MR. KOUMJIAN: I'm sorry. Yes, Your Honour. That's the

13 information -- of course I wasn't present, but that's the information we

14 have. Yes.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Defence may proceed, please.

16 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Sivac, can you tell us today whether you are

18 sure that you saw Mico Kovacevic in the month of July 1992 with a

19 delegation from Banja Luka that visited the Omarska camp?

20 A. If this is what I stated in 1994, then I am sure about that, that

21 that was Mico Kovacevic and that the delegation was composed as I

22 indicated at the time. However, from the transcript I can see that part

23 of my statement had been erroneously interpreted. Here it says an SDA

24 delegation, and not a delegation of the Serbian Autonomous Region.

25 Q. On the 17th of February, 1992, did you have a telephone

1 conversation with Mr. Tariq Malik?

2 A. It's possible that I did. I often had such telephone

3 conversations. However, these telephone conversations should be placed in

4 a special context. It happened quite often that I had to talk while

5 driving and that at that moment I was not able to concentrate on what I

6 was saying and go on driving the car which carried maybe my children whom

7 I had -- which carried children whom I had picked from school, which is my

8 current occupation.

9 Q. We have received only an abridged version of this telephone

10 conversation with Mr. Tariq Malik, and this is the only one we can rely

11 on. On page 1 --

12 MR. LUKIC: [Previous translation continues]... I have it in

13 English also.

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We have it before us.

15 MR. LUKIC: You have it, okay.

16 Q. [Interpretation] At the bottom of the page, NS, we have only two

17 kinds of initials, TM, for Tariq Malik, and NS, for Nusret Sivac. Under

18 the last appearance of the NS initials, we read the following: [In

19 English] "So Meakic, he presented some kind of report. Brdjanin, from

20 Prijedor, Srdjo Srdic, Simo Miskovic, Simo Drljaca. I'm sure they were

21 there. Mico Kovacevic was there from what I can remember. (Later said he

22 was not sure). There was a group of people, journalists from Prijedor and

23 Banja Luka."

24 [Interpretation] Therefore, on the 17th of February, 2002, you

25 were not sure whether you had seen Mico Kovacevic in the Omarska camp. Is

1 it not correct?

2 A. Once again, sir, let me tell you that it was an informal

3 conversation with Mr. Tariq Malik, and I'm sure I will try to avoid such

4 conversations in the future. I will insist, if Mr. Tariq Malik has anyone

5 to ask me, anything of any significance with respect to the trials that

6 are conducted here, that this be done under normal circumstances. Once

7 again, let me emphasise that I most frequently had informal conversations

8 with Mr. Tariq Malik over the telephone while I was driving with children

9 sitting behind me, and I was saying things that were in my mind -- on my

10 mind at that moment. And it is quite possible that in those conversations

11 with Tariq Malik I skipped certain things. I just wanted the conversation

12 to be over as soon as possible.

13 Q. Well, sir, did you state this to Mr. Tariq Malik?

14 A. Well, it is possible that I did at the time, under the

15 circumstances that I indicated.

16 Q. At the end of page 2 of the same document, next to the initials

17 TM, that is, Tariq Malik, we read the following: [In English] "To four

18 times for you to tell me names of persons from Prijedor who were part of

19 the delegation at Omarska."

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sorry, this is a misleading question. It should

21 be read in the context of the entire interview, and apparently this

22 Tariq -- this Mr. Tariq Malik was not informed about that what you

23 Mr. Lukic, just some minutes before read out.

24 MR. LUKIC: I'm afraid I didn't understand Your Honour.

25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: "TM, I mentioned three to four times for you to

1 tell me names of persons from Prijedor who were part of the delegation at

2 Omarska, and then continuing, why didn't you mention Stakic before?" And

3 apparently, this is not in line with we saw from the document from 1994

4 when the witness told us about that what -- close to that incident, he

5 discussed as happened about the 28th of July and mentioning there

6 Dr. Stakic. And in the same interview we have before us, this indeed not

7 helpful interview of an interpreter and Mr. Malik, and we should recall

8 that it's mentioned in the beginning that no interpreter was used, and

9 Mr. Malik communicated with the witness using his very basic knowledge of

10 B/C/S he picked up working for IPTF and the ICTY. Note, not been read

11 back to the witness, first. And then on the second page, on several

12 occasions, he mentioned that during this meeting, apparently "Stakic was

13 definitely there." This has to be read in the context.

14 The Defence may proceed.

15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Mr. Tariq Malik, didn't he ask you on three or four occasions to

17 give him the names of the people from Prijedor as being members of this

18 delegation?

19 A. I don't remember. It is possible that he did.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 You testified yesterday during the examination-in-chief, on page

22 8, you spoke about the fact that you were usually given inadequate water

23 at the Omarska camp. "What I want to say is that the water was industrial

24 water, not clean in terms of bacterias." Are you aware of the fact that

25 this water was analysed on a regular basis and that analysis subsequently

1 showed that the water was adequate?

2 A. Mr. Lukic, you're not right.

3 MR. KOUMJIAN: How could the witness possibly be aware of that

4 fact.

5 MR. LUKIC: [In English] I just asked if he knows. If he doesn't,

6 he can tell me he doesn't.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Lukic, I closely followed the

8 construction of the Omarska iron ore mine complex ever since the beginning

9 of the construction. It was one of the major mines in Europe, and I

10 visited this mine at least a hundred times. And I am fully aware of the

11 kind of water that we drank there. I know that the water that we drank

12 was used only to wash the construction machines. It was red in colour.

13 It was full of sulphur and all other things that normally should not be in

14 the water. There was a water tank which brought water to the guards every

15 other day from the area of Lamovita as far as I know. This water was

16 drinkable but was used only by the guards and the interrogators in the

17 camp.

18 MR. LUKIC: I would like the usher to present to the witness the

19 document S15-2I.

20 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Sivac, I'm sorry, but I have to ask you once

21 again to indicate for us on this picture the location of Mujo's room.

22 A. Mujo's room was on the ground floor in this area here. This is

23 the entrance, and just below Mujo's room, there was a fountain or a water

24 tap. I don't know how to call it, how to describe it to Their Honours. I

25 don't know how interpreters are going to interpret this. But anyway, this

1 is where the taps were, the taps with running water.

2 Q. On the day when this delegation of politicians visited Omarska,

3 you were taken out of Mujo's room where you were staying at the time, and

4 your group was lined up outside the administration building. On this

5 picture, you marked for us the spot where you were. Is this how they made

6 you -- where they made you stay until the departure of the delegation?

7 A. When Milorad Tadic, Brk, brought these groups of detainees here

8 early in the morning, he kept reshuffling these rows of detainees to make

9 them look as nice as possible. But at any rate, the spot where I was at

10 the time of the visit of this delegation was to the left of the fountain,

11 close to the detainees who were lined up outside the garage.

12 Q. So as we look at the picture, it would be closer to the right

13 angle of the administration building.

14 A. Yes, more or less here.

15 Q. How far could you move?

16 A. When I came there, no, we couldn't move. But during the morning

17 when Tadic was trying to reshuffle all these people, we did move. He

18 tried to have all of the rows full of detainees so that there were no

19 empty places.

20 Q. When the visit was over, were you immediately returned to the

21 room?

22 A. I believe I already stated that I don't know when the -- I didn't

23 know when the visit was over. But after the delegation had passed along

24 this road with Radislav Brdjanin and others going towards the

25 administration building, and when this group with Simo Miskovic and Srdjo

1 Srdic after a brief conversation with Dedo Crnalic who had come up to them

2 to talk to them but they refused to talked to him, we saw immediately

3 Milomir Stakic and Milan Andzic following them. And they turned off

4 behind the garage. After that, we were taken back to the room. But I

5 don't know when it was that the visit actually ended.

6 Q. How was it possible for you to see the line of people in front of

7 the white house from that vantage point?

8 A. During the morning hours, when Milorad Tadic, Brk, was lining

9 people up, moving them to the left and to the right, it was possible for

10 us to see that the detainees were also lined up outside the white house

11 which was very strange.

12 Q. On page 46, you speak about Zlatan Besirevic. And in line 17, you

13 describe your conversation with him. After his request for transfer to

14 Trnopolje had been refused. You stated the following: [In English] "We

15 asked him why he wasn't being transferred to Trnopolje, he said: `my name

16 was taken off the list, removed from the list in the Crisis Staff.'"

17 [Interpretation] Did you know Zlatan Besirevic well?

18 A. I knew him very well.

19 Q. Did you ever mention this event in any of your previous statements

20 or in your book?

21 A. No, I don't remember. I don't even remember what I wrote about it

22 in my book.

23 Q. Thank you. On page 49, line 19, you state the following: [In

24 English] "When we arrived in Trnopolje camp, it was surrounded with wire

25 fencing."

1 [Interpretation] I should like to know whether this fence could be

2 seen or should have been seen by other detainees in Trnopolje?

3 A. Yes, the fence was in place until the second day of our arrival,

4 and that is until the 8th or the 9th of August, 1992.

5 Q. Was the entire Trnopolje camp fenced off, from all sides?

6 A. Yes, it was. There was only one passage, one opening, facing the

7 railway lines. And a house which had a well in the front yard. And some

8 of the guards allowed us to go to that well to fetch water for ourselves.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 You then go on to say, on page 52, or rather 51, line 25, you

11 mention Rade Mutic. On the following page, Zivko Ecimovic.

12 A. Ecim.

13 Q. Zivko Ecim, then. And you describe a situation where they offered

14 you some help in order to get out of Trnopolje. You say: [In English]

15 "They looked at me and they said: `Well, Omarska could not be helped.

16 The release papers for someone to leave Omarska would have had to be

17 signed by someone from the Crisis Staff directly, or by Radmilo Zeljaja,

18 the commander of the 43rd Motorised Brigade.'"

19 [Interpretation] The first thing I would like to ask you is, did

20 you ever mention this before in any of your statements or your book?

21 A. I really don't know whether I did or not. But I do know it

22 happened because Rade Mutic then told me about an incident where Ratib

23 Seferovic was taken out of Omarska in this way. He was a former employee

24 and director of the commercial centre of Kozarski Vjesnik. But he had to

25 write his biography, and with the help of his CV, and with the people from

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1 the Crisis Staff, he was released from the Omarska camp.

2 Q. Radmilo Zeljaja was a soldier, was he not?

3 A. He was the commander of the 343rd Motorised Brigade which was

4 later given another number, and it consisted mostly of men from Prijedor

5 of Serbian nationality who in 1991 took an active part in the war in

6 Croatia in the areas of Lipik and Pakrac. After the cease-fire was signed

7 in Croatia, it arrived in Prijedor waiting for the political decision to

8 start their conquest and ethnic cleansing of Prijedor Municipality.

9 Radmilo Zeljaja and his 43rd Motorised Brigade burnt down Kozarac, a town

10 that was 700 years old. And instead of the sign saying "Kozarac," some of

11 his soldiers put up a sign calling the place, "Radmilovo" and this was in

12 the Cyrillic alphabet. They named the town after their commander, Radmilo

13 Zeljaja.

14 Q. What was the role of the army in the running of the Omarska camp?

15 A. I don't know what the chain of command was. I'm not familiar with

16 that. But as a prisoner, I had the impression that they didn't have any

17 business connections with the camp. In the Omarska camp, as well as

18 Trnopolje and Keraterm, there were no soldiers, and that's why I think

19 that the army did not have any authority over these camps and that they

20 were run by the civilian authorities of Prijedor Municipality.

21 Q. Did you take seriously Zivko Ecimovic?

22 A. Ecim.

23 Q. Ecim, and Rade Mutic when they said that Radmilo Zeljaja could get

24 you released from Omarska?

25 A. Yes, I did. Radmilo Zeljaja had a great deal of influence on the

1 politicians, on the political scene in Prijedor at the time.

2 Q. So that his signature was sufficient to get people released from

3 Omarska?

4 A. That's what Rade Mutic told me.

5 Q. Did you ever see a document allowing someone to leave Omarska?

6 A. Let me tell you: Before I went to Omarska, a small group of

7 people who had been detained in the Omarska camp were questioned and then

8 released. This group numbered about 20 or 30 people. But these same

9 people who were released from Omarska were arrested again and taken to the

10 Keraterm camp. After this, no one was ever released from the Omarska

11 camp.

12 Q. Let me ask you about something you mentioned just now. Who ran

13 the Trnopolje camp? Was it the police or the army?

14 A. The Trnopolje camp was run by Slobodan Kuruzovic.

15 Q. Was he a policeman?

16 A. Slobodan Kuruzovic was a captain, maybe he was promoted to a

17 higher rank in Croatia, and his deputy was Slavko Puhalic, also known as

18 Ture Mesar, from Prijedor who was a reserve policeman. In the office in

19 Trnopolje, I'm referring to the office of the Serbian Red Cross, which was

20 set up in Trnopolje, Pero Curguz often spent some time there. He was a

21 teacher from Ljubija, and he was also wearing a police uniform. He

22 coordinated the work of the Serbian Red Cross which was just across the

23 road from the Trnopolje camp.

24 Q. Did you ever see a document signed by Mr. Kuruzovic allowing

25 someone to be released from Trnopolje?

1 A. Yes, I received a document like that. On one side, it was signed

2 by him. On the other side, by Pero Curguz. But these certificates, well,

3 you could get hold of them in various ways, and I spoke of that during my

4 evidence in chief.

5 Q. The Prosecution showed you yesterday a document from which it is

6 evident that the demolition of certain buildings was ordered by the

7 executive committee of the municipal Prijedor assembly. On page 54 --

8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May the usher please present this document,

9 243B, to the witness.

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Is it evident from this document that at the time it was issued

12 there was an Executive Board of the Prijedor Municipal Assembly?

13 A. I saw this document for the first time yesterday. And yes, it

14 does say here "executive committee" or "board."

15 Q. Do you still maintain that it is the Crisis Staff of the

16 municipality that is responsible for the demolition of these buildings?

17 A. I received information from someone who is employed on this, doing

18 this, two years after these actions were committed, and I trust this

19 person. He informed me that these lists were drawn up retroactively.

20 Q. How long after these events, two years?

21 A. I don't know exactly. He didn't tell me the date, but

22 approximately.

23 Q. Does this mean that the documentation that has to do with this

24 area is not reliable?

25 A. I think that most of the documents in connection with this were

1 either forged or removed somewhere.

2 Q. Can you tell us the source of this information?

3 A. Unfortunately, I can't.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 When you spoke of the group of men who tried to demolish the

6 remains of the Catholic church, what was left of it, can you tell us

7 whether the bell tower was leaning over at the time?

8 A. Yes, you are right. And I don't know whether I called it a bell

9 tower or a spire. But it's interesting to note that it didn't topple

10 over, it just leaned over a little, and then several days later a group of

11 architects from Prijedor who, instead of building up the town, demolished

12 it with lists similar to this one, they tried to topple the bell tower and

13 then used heavy machinery to remove the rubble.

14 This group was led by Dusan Miljus, a civil engineer from the

15 Ljubija mine, who was wearing a leather jacket and carrying a big scorpion

16 pistol at his belt.

17 Q. Leaving aside the vandalism that led to the destruction of the

18 church, was the bell tower dangerous at that point in time?

19 A. Well, let me tell you: It wasn't because all the surrounding

20 family houses which were close to the Catholic church and the building of

21 the theatre in Prijedor which used to be one of the most beautiful

22 buildings in the Former Yugoslavia were severely damaged in the explosion

23 in which the Catholic church in Prijedor was demolished. And the people

24 in the houses surrounding it no longer lived in those houses. They

25 couldn't live there because there was no glass in any of the windows, no

1 window panes, no roof tiles, no roofs, and they had to find accommodation

2 elsewhere.

3 Q. Was it a threat to passersby?

4 A. Yes, of course it was.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 MR. LUKIC: [In English] Your Honour, this an appropriate time.

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The trial stays adjourned until 6.00 sharp. May

8 I ask all the participants to inform us on the updates from Banja Luka in

9 the -- during the last break I learned that the witness could possibly be

10 there at 9.30. But this should be confirmed precisely at 7.00. Thank

11 you.

12 MR. KOUMJIAN: I could give you also an update on the progress on

13 the video which is not good news because today our computer system has

14 been down completely, or almost completely. We've -- I identified 15

15 minutes of the tape that I think should be translated. We have a

16 transcript now of about 8 or 9 minutes. Maybe by the end of today, we'll

17 have a complete transcript in B/C/S. It's possible that we could play it

18 and get the translation from the booths, but we will not have the

19 translation, but we will have a transcript.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think we have to wait, indeed, until it's 7.00

21 sharp, and only then we know what will happen tomorrow. Thank you.

22 --- Recess taken at 5.36 p.m.

23 --- On resuming at 6.04 p.m.

24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Just to inform the parties that we indeed have

25 to speed up because I learned this moment from Banja Luka the witness is

1 there, and the videolink is established, and we can start tomorrow.

2 Please proceed.

3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Mr. Sivac, I will ask you something specific now. Apart from the

5 municipal Crisis Staff, was there a Crisis Staff of the public security

6 station in Prijedor chaired by Simo Drljaca, the chief of the public

7 security station, then Milutin Cadjo, his deputy, Dusan Jankovic, the

8 commander of the public security station, Marko Djenadija, the commander

9 of the traffic police, Dane Bajic, the commander of the Ljubija public

10 security station, and Bosko Petrovic, retired employee of the SUP?

11 A. I don't know how I defined this group in my earlier statements.

12 But in the security service, this group did exist, and they called

13 themselves "Kolegi" or something of the sort. And they were in charge of

14 the security service with the Prijedor police station and the branch

15 police stations. They coordinated the work in the field. In one of my

16 statements I may have called them a sort of "staff" of the security

17 service, but this group was active in 1992, and it coordinated, as I said,

18 the work of the branch police stations and the central police station in

19 Prijedor, and the other segments of the security service.

20 MR. LUKIC: [In English] I will ask the usher to distribute a

21 document.

22 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Sivac, you have before you a statement we

23 received from the Office of the Prosecutor which you made to a commission

24 of UN experts working on the Prijedor project as part of the German

25 participation in this commission. In one of your statements, you said

1 that you remembered making a statement to a German judge. Could it be

2 this statement, if you remember, and if you recognise it?

3 A. Well, I haven't looked at it in detail, but it could be this

4 statement. I'm just looking at it.

5 Q. Perhaps we can begin, and you will remember if you spoke of topics

6 I would like to put questions about. In the B/C/S version, there are no

7 printed numbers, just numbers added by the OTP. So could you please look

8 at the page bearing number 7292, and it's the third paragraph in the

9 English version. In B/C/S, it's the last paragraph. In the English

10 version, it's on page 3.

11 It says here: "The Crisis Staffs first appeared in February 1992.

12 The most important members of the Crisis Staffs at that time were the

13 following..." And then it goes on on the next page of B/C/S,

14 Zivko Knezevic, a retired police commander who died later during the war.

15 Bosko Petrovic, secretary of the league of communists, the old communist

16 party in Prijedor. Milutin Cadjo, a retired policeman. Slobodan

17 Kuruzovic, a primary school teacher and later director of that school.

18 Vaso Skodric, another retired policeman from the SUP of the Republic of

19 Bosnia and Herzegovina. Milan Dragojevic, a butcher and president of the

20 SDS in Urije. Ranko Curcija, a professional driving instructor, and also

21 president of the Radical Chetnik Party. Savan Runjo, a teacher of all

22 people's defence. The so-called ONO and DSZ classes, and finally Miodrag

23 Grubljejic, owner of a private transportation company.

24 Can you tell us what kind of Crisis Staff this was?

25 A. These were men who helped Dusan Jankovic and Simo Drljaca to

1 establish parallel Serbian police stations at the time, and it says here,

2 by mistake, that I said they were Crisis Staffs. In fact, these were

3 people who actively participated in setting up Serbian police stations

4 together with Dule Jankovic.

5 Q. On the page which in B/C/S has the last four digits 7299, English

6 version page 5, paragraph 2, you say: "In addition, in answer to

7 questions about the role played by Ostoja Marjanovic, Jovan Vukova,

8 probably Vukoja, and Ranko Travar, I wish to say that it is correct that

9 these three men were also members of the Crisis Staff, but they are less

10 important than the others whose names I have provided in my list."

11 Were you referring to something else here or the Crisis Staff?

12 A. Ostoja Marjanovic, as the director of the biggest company in

13 Prijedor, the Ljubija mines, was not formally a member of the Crisis

14 Staff, but he was often present at sessions of the Crisis Staff, and so

15 was Jovan Vukoja. They received instructions from the Crisis Staff which

16 were important for their companies, and they were probably the men through

17 whom the Crisis Staff set up the camps. The camp in Omarska could not

18 have been established had Ostoja Marjanovic not been present at the

19 sessions and had he not actively participated in them. Let me repeat: In

20 my testimony in chief, I said that in the time from the takeover of power

21 by the military coup of the Serbian Democratic Party, it was not important

22 whether someone had a membership card of the Serbian Democratic Party or

23 not. What was important was that all Serbs worked in a concerted way on

24 having the demographic composition of the municipality changed and on

25 making Prijedor and the Prijedor Municipality a part of the Autonomous

1 Region of Banja Luka, to have it annexed to that so-called autonomous

2 region.

3 Q. My question today, however, is whether you say that Ostoja

4 Marjanovic and Jovan Vukoja were not members of the Crisis Staff?

5 A. I said that they were not formally members of the Crisis Staff,

6 but that very often they attended sessions of the Crisis Staff.

7 Q. Can we therefore consider them to be members of the Crisis Staff?

8 A. In my opinion, not necessarily as members of the Crisis Staff.

9 Q. On page bearing number 7301 in the upper corner, paragraph 2, or

10 page 7, paragraph 1 of the English version --

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Before we turn to this part, may I ask the

12 parties, immediately before the paragraph you just read out on page 5, it

13 says: "I have listed the key people in the power takeover in detail in an

14 overview which I have attached to my statement." I can't see any such

15 attachment. Is it available? And in addition, I take the liberty to add,

16 when you started your line of questions on this document, you mentioned,

17 quoting from the top of my head, that this would be a witness statement

18 before a judge. Apparently, it is not because nothing is mentioned on the

19 presence of a judge in this statement we have before us in the German

20 version, and in addition, it's not signed at all. And even no paraphs

21 [phoen] are at the bottom line of the pages.

22 MR. LUKIC: [In English] Your Honour, we just got a statement from

23 the witness recognising this statement as his own. And in B/C/S, it

24 doesn't say "attachment; it says "list whose names I mentioned on the

25 list," and we have that list read previously on the transcript.

1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Both in English and in German, it reads "list

2 attached to the statement" and in German, it reads, sorry for the

3 interpreters, but it's the same: "In an overview I attach to my

4 statement."

5 MR. LUKIC: We don't have that attachment. So if the Prosecution

6 has one, we will gladly receive it.

7 MR. KOUMJIAN: The copy I have before me, the German version ends

8 with the ERN number 00286394, with the last paragraph speaking about

9 Dr. Sadikovic. And I have no further attachment.

10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I'm afraid it's only an extract from a police

11 document following the signature 2 ARP248-94 until 5. It's indeed

12 extremely difficult for the parties and us to work with this deluge of

13 paperwork and to compare it and to identify inconsistencies. But please

14 proceed.

15 MR. LUKIC: We were facing the same problem these days.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes.

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Mr. Sivac, in paragraph 2, on page 7301, you say: "The people

19 from Kozarac did not accede to the demands from Prijedor and Banja Luka,

20 and the negotiations were not successful. Instead, they organised, partly

21 with their own weapons bought from Serb sources, a kind of defence

22 patrol."

23 Where did you get this information from?

24 A. What do you mean? It was broadcast over the Prijedor radio or

25 published in Kozarski Vjesnik. In my statement, when I was referring to

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1 these events, the statement which was taken from me by one or two police

2 officers in the town where I used to live -- do you wish me to add

3 anything? I mean, I would like to add something to my answer.

4 Your Honours, in Prijedor, after the takeover, a strange situation

5 occurred as regards the security service. The town of Prijedor was

6 already under the control of the SDS and Serb authorities. However,

7 Kozarac, a small enclave on the road to Banja Luka, which was 97 per cent

8 Bosniak/Muslim, had a police station which previously, in normal times,

9 had been under the authority of the security service in Prijedor and the

10 police station in Prijedor. However, after the takeover, the Serb

11 Democratic Party no longer had control over this police station which,

12 therefore, became separate from its central office, the police station in

13 Prijedor. They did not recognise the fact that the Serbs in Prijedor had

14 carried out a military coup, that they had taken over power and disarmed

15 all police officers of Muslim and Croat ethnic background. They tried to

16 organise themselves and took over all the relevant competencies in the

17 town of Kozarac until the final capture of Kozarac by the Serb military

18 and police.

19 Until that time, they had operated autonomously. During the

20 takeover of Kozarac, the Serb military and police killed the majority of

21 employees of the police station in Kozarac. A small number of them were

22 taken to the Omarska and Keraterm camps.

23 Q. On page 7302, paragraph 1, from line 3 onwards, English version,

24 page 7, paragraph 1, you stated the following: "It was said that over

25 5.000 men participated in the attack including Seselj men, Arkan's men,

1 and White Eagles. In my opinion, Arkan's men and the White Eagles are two

2 distinct paramilitary groups. The leader of the White Eagles was a Serb

3 whose named was Jovic. The unit were stationed on Mount Benkovac on the

4 grounds of a youth hostel. The commander of all of the military units in

5 this attack, including the paramilitary troops, was Radmilo Zeljaja. He

6 personally spoke on Prijedor radio and ordered the people in Kozarac to

7 surrender their weapons within 24 hours and to put up Serb national

8 emblems."

9 My question in relation to this is whether you yourself heard

10 Radmilo Zeljaja say this over the Prijedor radio?

11 A. Yes, I did. On the 24th of May, while the ethnic cleansing of

12 Hambarine was still going on, we heard the voice of Radmilo Zeljaja, of

13 the mad Radmilo Zeljaja as he was introduced by the speaker, who read a

14 very brief ultimatum ordering the residents of Kozarac that the deadline

15 has been moved and that if they did not surrender their weapons until noon

16 the next day, that the Kozarac would be razed to the ground.

17 Q. Thank you very much. I have finished with this statement.

18 Just one other matter: We mentioned Vukoja, Jovan Vukoja. Do you

19 know what his occupation was? Do you know what he did?

20 A. He was a social worker. He worked at the social welfare office in

21 Prijedor.

22 Q. You worked at the security service. Yesterday you mentioned

23 something which I don't think came out very clearly, and I would like to

24 revisit it today. It concerns the seat of this service. Was it in

25 Prijedor? That is, was the headquarters in Prijedor for the municipality

1 of Bosanska Dubica, Prijedor, Sanski Most, and Bosanski Novi?

2 A. What particular service do you have in mind?

3 Q. It says here the chief of my department of the security service

4 and mention is made of Stojan Panic.

5 A. You're taking me back to 20 years earlier. I thought that our

6 main subject was Prijedor in the 1990s.

7 Q. That's why I said the matter remained unclear.

8 A. Stojan Panic was the chief of security service until sometime late

9 1980s. I have to emphasise once again to Their Honours the fact that in

10 Bosnia-Herzegovina, the structure of the security service was often

11 changed in Bosnia and Herzegovina. It all depended on who was to be a

12 appointed chief of the security service. Whoever took up office was

13 trying to reorganise the service in their own way. While I was employed

14 there, we changed our official title several times, depending on who the

15 superior was. For a while, we were the regional secretariat for internal

16 affairs. Then the name changed to the municipal secretariat for internal

17 affairs. Then we were sometimes called Security Services Centre. Then

18 the police administration.

19 As I said, it all depended on which politician was to be appointed

20 republican secretary for internal affairs in Sarajevo. Let me answer your

21 question directly, when Stojan Panic was the chief of security service, we

22 were for a while municipal secretariat for internal affairs. And just

23 before he retired, we became intermunicipal secretariat for internal

24 affairs. And as part of this intermunicipal secretariat for internal

25 affairs, there were also municipal secretariats for internal affairs for

1 the municipalities of Sanski Most, Bosanski Novi, and Bosanska Dubica.

2 Q. Thank you very much for this explanation.

3 A. You're welcome.

4 Q. I said we had finished with the statement, but I would like to go

5 back to page 7302. I'm sorry. Paragraph 3; English version, on page 8,

6 paragraph 3. Here you speak about the refugees in the Mladost Hall and

7 how you went there looking for friends and relatives. You go on to say:

8 "All the men that Serbs considered in any way fit for military service

9 were taken to Keraterm." And then, further down: "Even the Serbs didn't

10 know what to do with so many people and were somehow confused about it.

11 By the second day, buses came to Prijedor and transported women and

12 children from the sports hall to Trnopolje where in the meantime, a camp

13 had also been set up. Some refugees who had relatives in the Muslim

14 neighbourhood of Puharska in Prijedor were allowed to join up with their

15 families."

16 Can you tell us if this was done in order, or was the situation

17 chaotic?

18 A. The situation was chaotic. On that day when Kozarac came under an

19 artillery attack, when they started destroying property in Kozarac town,

20 huge columns of women and children, very few men, were arriving to the

21 sports hall in Prijedor. As I said, the situation was chaotic. Women

22 were crying and screaming. In the process, some of these people had lost

23 their children, their mothers, so they were calling out to each other and

24 looking for each other. However, everybody was confused. No one had,

25 until that point in time, seen columns of refugees. People didn't know

1 what it meant. So all of a sudden, you had this huge column of refugees

2 pouring into the city. And no one knew what to do with them.

3 That same day, as these refugees kept arriving, an intervention

4 platoon appeared some time later. I'm referring to the intervention

5 platoon of the Prijedor police station which was led by Dado Mrdja, Zoran

6 Babic and others. This intervention platoon, that is, its members,

7 started separating women and children and abusing them. Some time later

8 that day, buses arrived, and they ordered these women and children to

9 board these buses. And it was then that they said that they should be

10 taken to Trnopolje. Members of the intervention platoon were very rude,

11 and they did not allow us from Prijedor who had heard about this situation

12 and who had attempted to find relatives or friends in the column of these

13 refugees to approach them. However, several families that had been

14 encircled somehow managed to get out. And later, I heard that they had

15 found accommodation somewhere in the Puharska neighbourhood.

16 When the Trnopolje camp was filled up, the Prijedor authorities

17 allowed for a portion of refugees who were still pouring in to find

18 accommodation in the area of Puharska and stay there with their friends or

19 relatives in order to keep them under some kind of control there. However,

20 several days later, they organised convoys for these people in order to

21 displace them and expel them from Prijedor.

22 Q. Can we briefly go back to 1991, July and August 1991, the time of

23 the withdrawal of the JNA from Croatia and the deployment of the light and

24 heavy artillery on the surrounding mountains. What did the president of

25 the SDA attempt to do at the time?

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1 A. Your Honours, in 1991, that is, in late 1991, when the cease-fire

2 agreement was signed in Croatia, and when the war stopped there, large

3 military convoys started coming into the area of Prijedor and Bosnian

4 Krajina. I made several programmes, several coverages of these events,

5 together with some other colleagues. After the withdrawal of the army

6 from Slovenia in these huge military columns, the area of Banja Luka

7 suddenly became the largest military barracks in Europe. A huge arsenal

8 of weapons could be found in the area, the weapons that were in the hands

9 of Serbs. They had huge rocket launchers, the so-called Luna systems, at

10 their disposal. At the sports airfield in Prijedor, several tank units

11 were billeted. And if I may reiterate, the entire area of Prijedor and

12 Banja Luka saw the largest concentration of the remnants of the former

13 Yugoslav People's Army and its weapons. But let me give you a specific

14 answer to your question, Mr. Lukic. It is true that one day, somewhere in

15 the Prijedor neighbourhood of Urije, Dr. Mirza Mujadzic, with his

16 associates, revolted with these movements of military units walking around

17 the town of Prijedor, attempted to obstruct the passage of one of such

18 columns. An incident occurred as a result of that, but this incident was

19 very quickly taken care of.

20 Q. After the takeover of power on the 30th of April, 1992, did people

21 try to leave Prijedor?

22 A. Yes, they did. In Prijedor, there was an agency in the old hotel.

23 It was a tourist agency. And the -- there was a Serb. His last name was

24 Plemic, who was in charge there. And he made use of his Serbian

25 ethnicity, in collaboration with others in Banja Luka, to organise

1 transport by buses as far as Banja Luka, and from there, with a plane

2 which the Serb army had taken from the famous Croatian emigrant Kikas, who

3 tried to bring a load of weapons in by that plane. And the plane was

4 overtaken by Serbian pilots and forced to land at Banja Luka airport, and

5 then confiscated while he was put in prison. This plane was now used to

6 carry out ethnic cleansing.

7 Every day, a lot of money was paid by people who had it and who

8 wanted to leave Prijedor. They were able to travel from Banja Luka to

9 Prijedor by that plane.

10 Q. Did Serbs also leave by that plane?

11 A. No, Serbs did not leave by that plane except, perhaps, for a few

12 exceptional cases.

13 Q. On the 30th of May, 1992, you had a car stolen or confiscated?

14 A. Which car are you referring to, the official television car or my

15 car, my personal, private car?

16 Q. The Ford Escort.

17 A. Yes, that was my private car.

18 Q. It was confiscated on the 30th of May, 1992?

19 A. Yes, while the attack on Prijedor was still going on.

20 Q. You say this was done by a group led by Zoran Karlica?

21 A. Yes, my private car, my Ford, was parked in the garage which I had

22 rented long before that and which was located in Partizanska Street. You

23 probably know where that street is in Prijedor. And on that day, the

24 heaviest fighting between Slavko Ecimovic's group and the soldiers of the

25 Serbian army was taking place there. This garage was below Salih

1 Ejupovic's house. He was a relative of mine. And some time before this,

2 he had left to join his family in (redacted). The house - let me say right

3 away - is right next to the Obala restaurant in Partizanska Street where

4 the heaviest fighting was going on between Slavko Ecimovic's group and the

5 Serbian soldiers, army, led by Zoran Karlica. And later on, I learned

6 that all these houses were destroyed in this fighting. They were set on

7 fire. I tried to find out what had happened to my car, and I heard from

8 neighbours who lived in that street that before Salih Ejupovic's house was

9 set on fire, the Serbian soldiers had used a tank to pull my car out using

10 a chain tied to the tank and they had driven my car off somewhere.

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I ask the registry to redact from page 62,

12 line 25, the country, please. Thank you.

13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Did Zoran Karlica participate in this personally, if you know?

15 A. My information was that Zoran Karlica's men had done this. I

16 don't know whether before this Zoran Karlica, either before or after, he

17 was seriously wounded.

18 Q. And he died of his wounds in hospital?

19 A. Yes, he did.

20 Q. You went to the SUP to ask about the car? Who did you go with?

21 Was it your kum, Armin Basic?

22 A. It's possible. I don't remember now.

23 Q. Did you ever get your car back?

24 A. Yes, I did. In Prijedor, there was a big shortage of petrol, and

25 Serbian soldiers only confiscated cars that used diesel fuel and oil. And

1 my car was left on the street in the town. So I managed to get my car

2 back with the help of connections in the security service.

3 MR. LUKIC: [In English] Your Honour, I would now switch to another

4 topic, and I think that we need at least an hour, hour and a half tomorrow

5 after. Because I don't think that this videolink would take long, both in

6 direct and in cross-examination.

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Indeed, we can't afford to waste one minute only

8 doing the remaining time before the court recess. And may I ask the

9 witness, you are prepared to assist us also tomorrow?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And could you please be so kind and understand

12 that we have to interrupt the cross-examination for the purposes of a

13 videolink tomorrow. This videolink can be established only within a

14 certain timeframe, time window. And therefore, during this time, we can't

15 continue with your testimony. But later during the day, we will continue

16 with the cross-examination and probably some other questions or, if

17 possible, clips from the video provided by the OTP.

18 I was just informed that indeed, not only the witness is there,

19 but also the videolink will be ready for 10.00. Nevertheless, we have to

20 continue at 9.00 sharp, Courtroom I. Then we have the videolink, and

21 let's wait and see what time, in fact, we need. Please understand that I

22 do not rely on time estimates in this case.

23 So therefore, the trial stays adjourned until tomorrow, 9.00,

24 Courtroom I.

25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

1 6.57 p.m., to be reconvened on

2 Thursday, the 1st day of August, 2002,

3 at 9.00 a.m.

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