100518ED

Page 5086

1 response of Serbia.

2 And that now is -- Madam Registrar, could you confirm that these

3 two documents together are P469?

4 THE REGISTRAR: So these two documents together will receive

5 number P469.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And then P470 would be Confidential Annex --

7 MR. WEBER: Yes.

8 JUDGE ORIE: -- A. And that should be admitted under seal.

9 Madam Registrar, is this clear to you? I see you are nodding

10 yes. P470 is admitted under seal. P469 is admitted as a public

11 document.

12 Let's proceed.

13 MR. WEBER:

14 Q. In paragraphs 6 through 12 of Exhibit P441, you describe your

15 recruitment into the JATD. In paragraphs 7 and 8, you indicate that you

16 had a meeting with Rade Dozet on the 24th or 25th of April, 1994. Could

17 you please describe the conversation you had with Rade Dozet on that day?

18 A. I met with Rade Dozet in the building of the Pancevo SUP on the

19 corner of Paje Marganovica and Milosa Trebinjca Street in his office.

20 Two weeks before that, Dragan Zujovic, who was one of the officials of

21 the state security, told me that if I wished to start working for the DB,

22 I should come for an interview with Rade Dozet. Rade Dozet told me about

23 the unit which should not be involved in the task for which I was

24 subsequently trained.

25 Q. What type of unit did he describe to you?

Page 5087

1 A. Nothing specific was said about the type of unit. What I was

2 told was that I would be trained in foreign languages and intelligence.

3 I was never told that that unit would be involved in anti-terrorist

4 activities and that it was under the MUP of Serbia.

5 Q. What is the reason that Rade Dozet recommended you to the unit?

6 A. At that time I was a junior champion of Vojvodina Serbia and

7 Yugoslavia in judo and my trainer Slavko Stanisic contributed to me

8 becoming a member of that unit. I was told that the state security

9 service was looking for athletes with good results and that that was one

10 of the reasons why I would become a member of that unit.

11 Q. What was the professional background of Slavko Stanisic?

12 A. Slavko Stanisic was a member of public security. He was a police

13 officer, and he was tasked with the training of Special Police Units and

14 special-purpose units, and he was the one who trained them in martial

15 arts.

16 Q. What occurred after your meeting with Rade Dozet in April of

17 1994?

18 A. After that meeting, approximately ten days later, I was invited

19 to come for a medical examination and some psychological testings. All

20 those took place in Kneza Milosa Street in the building of state

21 security.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to slow down.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Sliskovic, could you please slow down your speed

24 of speech. The interpreters have difficulties in following you.

25 MR. WEBER:

Page 5088

1 Q. You stated in the building of state security. Do you know what

2 state security building is located on Kneza Milosa Street in Belgrade?

3 A. That's the street of the state security of the republic, the

4 address is number 3 Kneza Milosa, and it's behind the building of the

5 federal SUP.

6 Q. When you went to the building on Kneza Milosa Street in Belgrade,

7 what type of interview and tests did you undergo?

8 A. First there were general knowledge tests. The questions were

9 like, Who was Slobodan Penezic, What's the United Nations, and other

10 general questions. And then there were psychological tests that we had

11 to undergo.

12 Q. Could you please explain these psychological tests?

13 A. We would get various tasks to solve. In one of the tasks the

14 question was related to some sort of --

15 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter didn't get the exact name, I think.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And similar questions to which we

17 had to provide answers.

18 MR. WEBER:

19 Q. Sir, could you please repeat the last part of your answer as to

20 what type of tasks that the questions asked you for during your

21 psychological tests.

22 A. Yes. There were tests such as Raschig's [phoen] blurs and other

23 tests that are usually conducted when screening candidates for such

24 units.

25 Q. How was the interview conducted?

Page 5089

1 A. We were first interviewed by an elderly gentleman. I think that

2 he was a doctor. And he spoke to each one of us. And he asked every one

3 of us through who we had come here, who was our connection, and I said

4 that I had come through Stanisic. He first thought that he was

5 Jovica Stanisic, but then I told him that it was Slavko Stanisic and that

6 judo was the basis. And this man talked to each one of us separately.

7 Q. Was there anyone --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, I listened to some of your last

9 questions, first about the building, which is in the statement.

10 MR. WEBER: Yes.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Then I wondered whether the Chamber would have

12 deprived from any relevant knowledge if he would not have known that the

13 psychological tests were the usual tests and with the -- and then finally

14 about the interview. I'm wondering, of course it may be that you come to

15 a point now where we really are enlightened in such a way, but until now

16 if I would not have known about psychological tests, just that

17 psychological tests were taken, I would not have thought that I would

18 have missed a lot.

19 MR. WEBER: Understood, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

21 MR. WEBER:

22 Q. Who else was present when you went for these interviews and

23 tests?

24 A. In the room there was also Milenko. I think he was

25 Jovica Stanisic's adjutant. He sometimes would suggest to us which

Page 5090

1 answers we you should give to some questions.

2 Q. Were you the only person that was going through interviews and

3 tests that day?

4 A. No. On that day there were about 20 of us in that conference

5 hall.

6 Q. Did anyone besides Milenko meet with you from the state security

7 service when you went for the interview you?

8 A. Yes, I think it was Dragan Krsmanovic.

9 Q. Who is Dragan Krsmanovic?

10 A. At the time, I didn't know who he was. He was a high-ranking

11 official of the state security service in charge of logistics, and we

12 later met him off.

13 Q. What were you told after the completion of these tests and the

14 interview?

15 A. After the completed tests and interviews, we were taken to

16 Durmitorska Street for medical check-ups. After that, we were told that

17 we should come to the same place on the 30th of May and only bring

18 personal hygiene items.

19 Q. In paragraph 13 of Exhibit P441, you state that you reported to

20 the JATD on 30 May 1994 at the Serbian DB headquarters in Belgrade.

21 Could you please explain what occurred once you arrived that day?

22 A. We came to a waiting room by the entrance to that building.

23 Milenko waited for us there, and there was also Dragan Krsmanovic. And

24 one of our instructors, Dragan Lestaric, later on we found out that he

25 was the commander, and we got decisions about our employment, stating

Page 5091

1 that we were junior officials at the state security service.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, if this is the answer you expected, I

3 found it already in the statement, isn't it. 92 ter is there to -- not

4 to elicit repetitious evidence. Please proceed.

5 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have page 1 of

6 Exhibit P442.

7 Q. Do you recognise this document?

8 A. Yes, I recognise it. It's the official document that I received

9 then. It's called a "Ruling."

10 Q. Under the heading entitled "Ruling," the document states that you

11 are "... hereby employed in the Republic of Serbia Ministry of the

12 Interior, State Security Department, as of 1 June 1994, to the position

13 envisaged in item 37, number 7, of the Rules on Job Specification."

14 Did you ever see the rules on job specification of the state

15 security department?

16 A. No. Never.

17 Q. Do you know the position that item 37 relates to?

18 A. I don't know.

19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac.

21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I apologise for interrupting, but

22 this may be the right moment. I cannot see something, and it also seems

23 to me that this document was mistranslated into English, namely that an

24 important part is missing. Namely, is employed for a definite

25 time-period of one year. I cannot see that -- this bit in the English

Page 5092

1 version, Your Honour. So that there is a significant and essential

2 difference between the original and the translation.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Let's have a look at both versions.

4 Mr. Bakrac, could you indicate exactly where it says so and first

5 point at it.

6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it says "ruling" in

7 the heading. And then Dejan, son of Aleksandar Sliskovic from Belgrade,

8 born on the 12th of December, 1973, in Zrenjanin. And then, in capitals:

9 "... is hereby employed," and that's in capitals in the English

10 as well.

11 And right after that:

12 "... for a limited time-period of one year at the Ministry of the

13 Interior of the Republic of Serbia, State Security Department, as of

14 1 June 1994, to the position envisaged," et cetera.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So you're saying that the second part of the

16 line in capitals, just under the identification of the person to whom

17 this decision relates, is untranslated. I don't know whether it's true

18 or not, but could you, please, Mr. Weber, verify whether this is the

19 case. And if so, upload a new translation.

20 MR. WEBER: Yes, Your Honour. I don't read Cyrillic, so I do not

21 know offhand. Would you like me to ask the witness if that's what it

22 says?

23 JUDGE ORIE: Well, you could ask the witness to read it.

24 Could you, Mr. Sliskovic, read the line which is starting -- I

25 think it reads [B/C/S spoken]. That line. Could you read that entire

Page 5093

1 line.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

3 "Is employed for a limited period of one year at the Ministry of

4 the Interior of the Republic of Serbia."

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Weber, could you please have the

6 translation being verified and if need be corrected.

7 MR. WEBER: Yes, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

9 MR. WEBER:

10 Q. What kind of unit did you think you were joining when you

11 received this decision at the end of May 1994?

12 A. Then, I was still unaware of the nature of the unit, but I

13 thought that it would be a unit that would deal with anti-terrorist

14 activities in the Republic of Serbia.

15 Q. How did you learn this?

16 A. When I was admitted, there were also other members who had had

17 contact with that unit earlier. Some of them had taken part in combat

18 operations. So I started -- so then it dawned on me that this unit --

19 the purpose of this unit was different altogether.

20 Q. After you received this decision, you indicate in your 2010

21 statement that you and the other JATD recruits were taken to the Lipovica

22 forest. Could you please describe the JATD facility at the Lipovica

23 forest?

24 A. Yes. It was a former military facility. It was a building along

25 the road to the village of Barajevo. There was a cafeteria on the ground

Page 5094

1 floor and some sort of office. And on the upper floor there were the

2 bedrooms and the -- a restroom, as well as bathrooms, et cetera. There

3 was also a TV lounge.

4 Q. Who used the offices at the JATD facility in Lipovica?

5 A. As far as I understood, those were shared facilities, shared

6 offices, mostly used by Dragan Krsmanovic. But other officers from the

7 unit would also come. Major Filipovic, Zoran Rajic, and other officers

8 would also come whose names I didn't know and I cannot remember them now.

9 Q. Do you know if any personnel files on members of the JATD were

10 kept at the Lipovica facility?

11 A. Dragan Krsmanovic in the office that he used had a database with

12 files about the members of the units as well as the equipment issued to

13 them.

14 Q. When you say "database" are you referring to a computer or are

15 you referring to hard copies of files in cabinets?

16 A. No, I mean hard copies. At that time, I didn't see electronic

17 documents much.

18 Q. In paragraph 22 of Exhibit P441, you state that you and the other

19 members of your training group got your red berets at the Lipovica forest

20 camp along with your uniforms. Could you please just explain the process

21 in which these uniforms and beret were provided to you.

22 A. Yes, we spent the first two days there without uniforms, that is,

23 in civilian clothes. Only then did we receive blue uniforms as were used

24 by the Special Police Units and red berets. There was a sword with four

25 letters S and the Serbian flag.

Page 5095

1 Q. Where did you go to pick up these uniforms and beret?

2 A. The facility next to the place where we were billeted, that is,

3 in the same camp, there was also a warehouse. Apart from these uniforms,

4 there were also NATO uniforms, camouflage uniforms.

5 Q. Did you sign any documents or receipts when you went to pick up

6 this equipment?

7 A. Yes, for each part of the uniform issued, we had to sign a slip

8 of paper confirming that we had received it.

9 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit P350 in

10 evidence.

11 Q. Mr. Sliskovic, do you recognise this document?

12 A. Yes. These are the receipts for equipment issued. But as far as

13 I remember, I signed a receipt not only for the beret and the badge but

14 for an entire blue uniform.

15 Q. The person mentioned in this receipt is someone you discuss in

16 both of your previous statements. Did you ever see Vaso Mijovic wearing

17 a red beret?

18 A. Yes, I did. I saw him when I was at Velika Kladusa. He wore a

19 red beret there.

20 MR. WEBER: At this time the Prosecution requests that the

21 Court Officer provide the witness with a item of physical evidence. It's

22 Artifact A001-3825. The Prosecution has it.

23 Q. Sir, I see you've removed the contents of the folder that was

24 just provided to you. Do you recognise this exhibit?

25 A. Yes. This is my beret with the badge of the unit.

Page 5096

1 Q. How do you recognise this as your red beret?

2 A. The lining of the beret was black. When I -- while I was

3 removing it, I damaged the beret and the stitches -- or rather, the --

4 no, the screws on the badge were not the original screws. I put other

5 screws on the badge.

6 Q. Is this red beret the same or substantially similar condition as

7 when you last saw it in 2003?

8 A. It's in the same condition.

9 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution at this time tenders the red beret

10 into evidence.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, I hear of no objections, therefore

12 the number to be assigned would be ...

13 THE REGISTRAR: This would be Exhibit -- red beret would be

14 Exhibit P443, Your Honours.

15 JUDGE ORIE: P443 is admitted into evidence. Could I have a look

16 at the badge on it.

17 Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

18 MR. WEBER:

19 Q. During your training in Lipovica, did you learn how the JATD was

20 commonly known?

21 A. I apologise, could you please repeat your question? I didn't

22 hear it well due to an interruption while I was listening.

23 Q. During your training in Lipovica ...

24 During your training in Lipovica, did you learn how the JATD was

25 commonly known?

Page 5097

1 A. Yes. The older unit members who had already had contact called

2 the unit the Red Berets.

3 Q. Between June and September 1994, did you train with the same

4 recruits of the Red Berets?

5 A. We were divided into two groups. Dragan Krsmanovic divided us

6 into one infantry group and one artillery group. And the infantry group

7 stayed together and was trained together all the time.

8 Q. What group were you a member of?

9 A. The infantry group.

10 Q. In paragraph 20 of Exhibit P441 you state that you received

11 training from former members of the

12 "Specijalna Antiteroristicka Jedinica" of the Serbian MUP or SAJ

13 spelled S-A-J. In this paragraph you also state that Radovan Stojicic,

14 also known as Badza, was the commander of SAJ. Was Badza a member of

15 public security or state security of the MUP?

16 A. Radovan Stojicic Badza, as far as I know, was in public security.

17 Q. Was there any coordination between Badza and these former members

18 of SAJ in the state security service of Serbia?

19 A. Based on what I heard and on what I know, both units acted

20 jointly in some operations.

21 Q. Do you know when these units acted jointly?

22 A. This is what I heard from Desimir Butkovic who was a unit member.

23 He mentioned them being together and --

24 THE INTERPRETER: The witness mentioned a proper name which we

25 didn't understand. Could he please repeat.

Page 5098

1 MR. WEBER:

2 Q. Sir, if you could please repeat the names that you just mentioned

3 in your last answer.

4 A. One name was Desimir Butkovic.

5 Q. Was there a second name that you referred to?

6 A. I think I mentioned his nickname which is Deso.

7 Q. When did you learn that these units acted jointly?

8 A. I heard that while I was at the training centre in the camp in

9 Lipovica forest.

10 Q. And do you know when it was that these units performed joint

11 operations?

12 A. I wouldn't be able to give you the exact time.

13 Q. What were the names of your former instructors from SAJ?

14 A. Dragan Lestaric; Drasko Suvara; Sasa Jovanovic; Slobodan Stakic;

15 Dragan Jovanovic, also known as Bata; and I can't remember any others.

16 Janko Keres I remember.

17 Q. How many other members of the Red Berets were in your infantry

18 group between June and September 1994?

19 A. I believe that there were 20 of us altogether.

20 Q. Were you accommodated together this entire time?

21 A. Yes, we were at the Lipovica forest camp all the time.

22 Q. Did you have occasion to learn how the other members of your

23 infantry group were recruited into the Red Berets?

24 A. Yes. There were a lot of members in that part of the unit who

25 had had contact with the Red Berets, and they joined the unit upon

Page 5099

1 recommendation.

2 THE INTERPRETER: Could all the microphones not in use please be

3 switched off. There is a lot of background noise in the courtroom.

4 MR. WEBER:

5 Q. In paragraph 23 of Exhibit P441, you state that during your

6 training in Lipovica:

7 "I learned that the JATD had its regular composition consisting

8 of these young candidates from the tests and interviews who received

9 formal decisions from Stanisic, but there was another part of the unit

10 which was completely a different story."

11 Could you please explain what you mean by this statement?

12 A. When I arrived at the Lipovica training centre, I knew that we

13 were divided into two groups, infantry and artillery. However, I learned

14 from the others that there were several training camps and that the unit

15 also had a lot of people on its reserve force.

16 Q. What were these reserve forces?

17 A. Those were members of the unit who had participated in former

18 operations and who were called if needed.

19 Q. Who were the members of the Red Berets that were with

20 Captain Dragan in 1991?

21 A. According to what I know those men arrived in Lipovica.

22 Dragan Pupovac; Zvezdan Jovanovic; Vaso Mijovic; Bozovic, Rajo.

23 Q. How did you learn that these individuals were part of a

24 paramilitary unit since 1991?

25 A. The other --

Page 5100

1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe that the

2 witness said "reserve forces." He mentioned the reserve forces. And now

3 my learned friend is referring to the reserve forces as a "paramilitary

4 group."

5 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, that's not the case. I believe this is

6 clear in the witness's statement. I asked him to define the reserve

7 forces, then I moved on to a different portion in which he describes that

8 there were people that were part of a paramilitary unit since 1991.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, paragraph 23 of the statement refers to

10 reserve/paramilitary formations, so therefore there is a basis in the

11 evidence, therefore --

12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I understand

13 that, but it is not clear in the statement what the witness meant. And

14 now the witness said it himself that there were reserve forces. I

15 believe that it would be leading if you immediately switched from that to

16 a paramilitary group.

17 JUDGE ORIE: If the statements say reserve/paramilitary that

18 means that it's put on an equal footing. If you think it's unclear, then

19 you can seek further clarification in cross-examination. There was no

20 reason at this moment to intervene.

21 Please proceed.

22 MR. WEBER:

23 Q. How did you learn that these individuals were part of a

24 paramilitary unit since 1991?

25 A. Dragoje Zvizdic, Miroslav Mirkovic, Desimir Butkovic, and other

Page 5101

1 members of the unit told me a lot about that unit, and they told me that

2 they were great fighters who had met in Captain Dragan's camp already in

3 1991. I met some of them personally in the Lipovica camp, for example,

4 Dragan Pupovac. I had opportunities to sit down with him and talk to

5 him.

6 Q. In paragraph 23 of Exhibit P441, you state that:

7 "These individuals were officers in Captain Dragan's camp and

8 commanders of the reserve/paramilitary formations of the JATD. All of

9 them had earned Simatovic's trust since 1991."

10 How do you know that these commanders earned the trust of Franko

11 Simatovic in 1991?

12 A. My colleagues who were with me described them as good fighters,

13 brave people, people of Franko Simatovic's confidence. People whom

14 Franko Simatovic trusted. That's what I heard from them.

15 Q. Who were these colleagues?

16 A. I heard most from Dragoje Zvizdic; but Miroslav Mirkovic, Desimir

17 Butkovic, Dragutin Stanovic, and others also talked about those men.

18 Q. Were the names that just mentioned all members of your infantry

19 group?

20 A. Yes, they were with me in the same group. We received our

21 decisions together.

22 Q. In paragraph 6 of Exhibit P440, you state that:

23 "Sometime mid-September 1994 we started to load up our vehicles

24 with all the necessary items for a large unit going to battle."

25 Could you please explain these preparations?

Page 5102

1 A. I arrived home. I was allowed to go home for the weekend

2 together with my instructors. I lived nearby in Pancevo. I arrived

3 there and lorries were by the depot and they were being loaded with

4 mines, explosives, ammunition, and weapons for a unit who was supposed to

5 spend a longer time in the field. We didn't know any details of that

6 exercise. We were there, and we helped load the lorries.

7 Q. Who oversaw these preparations?

8 A. Dragan Krsmanovic was in the Lipovica camp most of the time.

9 Q. In paragraph 27 of Exhibit P441, you state that:

10 "We left for Petrova Gora from Lipovica training centre. There

11 were 24 of us on a bus when we left the Lipovica forest."

12 Who were the 23 other people with you on this bus?

13 A. Members of the unit who were with me in the camp at the moment.

14 The infantry part of that unit. Drasko Suvara, one of the instructor,

15 was also on the same bus with us. The number is an approximation. I

16 don't know exactly how many we were. I believe that we were about 24.

17 Q. Approximately how many vehicles were in the convoy when you first

18 departed Lipovica?

19 A. The convoy was very long. You could not see its end. However,

20 people in the know told me that the convoy ended around Barajevo. That's

21 how long it was.

22 Q. What I'm asking you, sir, is how long was the convoy when you

23 first left Lipovica, not when you arrived.

24 A. I don't know. I wouldn't be able to tell you exactly. I can

25 only tell you that the convoy was really long. Exceptionally long. When

Page 5103

1 you are looking at a convoy in movement, the vehicles have to keep a

2 certain distance, so the convoy obviously appears longer than it actually

3 is. It could appear even as if it had been 5 kilometres long.

4 Q. Did your bus-stop and pick up anyone after it left the Lipovica

5 facility?

6 A. Yes, we did. Zika Crnogorac, a Montenegrin, entered our bus.

7 Q. Who is Zika Crnogorac?

8 A. Zika Crnogorac, I saw him for the first time at that point, and

9 my colleagues told me that he was was in the Red Berets from 1991. He

10 was a group leader. Some of his men entered our bus together with him.

11 Q. What occurred when Zika Crnogorac was picked up by the bus you

12 were on?

13 A. Zika Crnogorac entered and asked us if we knew where we were

14 headed, we said no. And then he said, Well, I can't disclose that in

15 that case, but I can tell you that you are coming home in black

16 body-bags.

17 Q. After your bus stopped, did your convoy proceed?

18 A. The convoy proceeded in the direction of Raca.

19 Q. Did any other buses or vehicles join the convoy as it proceeded

20 to Raca?

21 A. Yes. We were joined by vehicles all the time. There was a bus

22 behind us with the Serbian Volunteer Guards, and we were also joined by

23 some artillery vehicles.

24 Q. Do you know where these artillery vehicles were from?

25 A. They belonged to a unit which had had been billeted at the Tara

Page 5104

1 camp.

2 Q. What type of unit? Who did this unit belong to?

3 A. Those combat vehicles belonged to the anti-terrorist unit of the

4 Serbian MUP.

5 Q. Did the convoy experience any problems as it proceeded to Raca?

6 A. Yes. We were halted when one vehicle overturned. It was the

7 communications vehicle, and that's where we had to stop. We were halted

8 for a while.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, I'm looking at the clock. It's time for

10 a break. Approximately would this be a suitable moment or could you find

11 a suitable moment within the next two or three minutes.

12 MR. WEBER: We can break now if you want.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll have a break, and we'll resume at 4.00.

14 --- Recess taken at 3.35 p.m.

15 --- On resuming at 4.05 p.m.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, you may proceed.

17 MR. WEBER:

18 Q. When one of the communication vehicles experienced this problem,

19 did you exit your bus and have an opportunity to see the other soldiers

20 who had joined the convoy?

21 A. Yes. Members of the Serbian Volunteers Guard got off a bus.

22 Q. How did you know that these individuals were members of the

23 Serbian Volunteer Guard?

24 A. They sported insignia typical of their unit. A tiger and an

25 abbreviation, SDG, a three headed eagle, and a sword with two blades.

Page 5105

1 Q. Were the uniforms worn by these members of the

2 Serbian Volunteer Guard similar to yours or different?

3 A. They wore overalls with NATO colours. Those were not NATO

4 uniforms. They were very similar but not exactly the same.

5 Q. Did you have occasion to have a conversation with Drasko Suvara

6 during this break?

7 A. Yes. Drasko Suvara was standing next to me, and he was also

8 talking to Zika Crnogorac. And, yes, we all had a conversation.

9 Q. What did Drasko Suvara tell you during this conversation?

10 A. He said that Franko Simatovic was in the vehicle leading the

11 convoy.

12 Q. After the communications vehicle was repaired, how did the convoy

13 cross into Bosnia?

14 A. The convoy crossed into Bosnia across the Raca border crossing.

15 Q. Were there any soldiers or other armed individuals at the border

16 crossing when you were let through?

17 A. Yes. Russian UNPROFOR soldiers were on duty at the border

18 crossing at the time.

19 Q. Was the convoy stopped when it crossed at Raca?

20 A. No, the convoy was not stopped. We proceeded.

21 Q. When the convoy arrived in Petrova Gora, how much bigger was the

22 total size of the convoy from when you had initially departed Lipovica?

23 A. It was three or four times longer than when it first left

24 Lipovica.

25 Q. In paragraph 7 of Exhibit P440, you state that it was in

Page 5106

1 Petrova Gora that you first met with Rajo Bozovic.

2 Could you please explain this first meeting?

3 A. Yes. When we arrived, we were billeted in some prefabricated

4 houses across from the monument in Petrova Gora. We entered our

5 dormitories, and an officer came whose name I didn't know and he wanted

6 to accommodate his men from Montenegro in the same dormitory. We

7 objected to that. And one of the members of the unit,

8 Milan Milosavljevic, told me, Shut up, that is Rajko Bozovic.

9 Q. How long after your arriving in Petrova Gora did this occur?

10 A. We travelled over 24 hours to Petrova Gora and that event

11 involving Rajo Bozovic took place some 15 or 20 minutes after we were

12 accommodated in the dormitories.

13 Q. After Bozovic left the dormitory, were you and the other members

14 of your infantry group transported anywhere?

15 A. Yes. I was the first one to keep guard in front of the

16 prefabricated building for two hours. They arrived in Payero jeeps, they

17 wore camouflage uniforms, and they transported us to Magarcevac, which

18 was the former forward command post of the 5th Communications Centre.

19 Q. In your previous answer when you say "they" who are you referring

20 to?

21 A. One Mitsubishi Payero was driven by Miroslav Kurak. And those of

22 us who were billeted in the prefabricated buildings were transported.

23 There were some ten of us belonging to the reserve forces of that unit.

24 Q. When you arrived at the command post, who was present?

25 A. That's within I saw Jovica Stanisic for the first time.

Page 5107

1 Q. Approximately how many hours after you arrived in Petrova Gora

2 did you see Jovica Stanisic?

3 A. Not more than four hours.

4 Q. Was anyone with Jovica Stanisic when you arrived at the command

5 post?

6 A. They were in their offices. Jovanovic, Dragan Lestaric,

7 Franko Simatovic, the secretary Sladana, they were all there in their

8 offices where they also slept.

9 Q. Did you receive an assignment at that time?

10 A. First we were told where we would be sleeping, and after a while

11 we were deployed at our century posts. We were tasked with guarding the

12 facility both inside and outside.

13 Q. Were you subsequently assigned to guard the facilities where

14 Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic were located?

15 A. Yes. As a matter of fact, we slept in the same facility in that

16 communications centre. We guarded the entrance into the offices, and we

17 guarded the entrance into the building itself.

18 Q. Besides yourself, who received this assignment?

19 A. Milos Djukic, Nebojsa Stankovic, not more than three of us, but

20 Dragan Lestaric and Zvezdan Jovanovic were Simatovic's most immediate

21 closest guards.

22 Q. Could you please describe your responsibilities when you stood

23 guard for Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic?

24 A. We were under strict orders not to let any armed persons in to

25 Simatovic's and Stanisic's offices. We stood guard in front of the

Page 5108

1 building as well as in front of the office where Stanisic worked. In

2 other words, nobody who was not announced could enter either the building

3 or Stanisic's office.

4 Q. For how many months were you assigned to secure the office of

5 Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic?

6 A. I can speak for myself and I can say that I was there in that

7 place until the beginning of the month of February.

8 Q. Would this mean that it was from sometime in the end of September

9 1994 to February 1995?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. How often were you on guard when Jovica Stanisic and

12 Franko Simatovic used the office?

13 A. We had our schedules. Sometimes shifts lasted two hours, three

14 hours, and four hours. And there were also days when the others were

15 somewhere else on other assignments. On those days, Milos Djukic and I

16 were the only ones who stood guard.

17 Q. Approximately how often did you see Jovica Stanisic and

18 Franko Simatovic at these offices between September 1994 and

19 February 1995?

20 A. Jovica Stanisic spent about 70 per cent of his time there in

21 those offices. Sometimes he was also absent, probably he travelled. But

22 I would say that they were there most of the time.

23 Q. What about Franko Simatovic?

24 A. Mr. Simatovic was also there all the time, as far as I can

25 recall. He was also absent from time to time, probably on business.

Page 5109

1 Q. Could you please describe the office of Jovica Stanisic in

2 Petrova Gora?

3 A. The size of the office was about 20 to 25 square metres. There

4 was a conference desk, some other pieces of furniture, and there was a

5 topographic map hanging on the wall.

6 Q. In paragraph 38 of Exhibit P441, you state that "in Petrova Gora

7 you became more familiar with the organisation of the JATD," known as the

8 Red Berets.

9 How did you become more familiar with the organisation of the Red

10 Berets in Petrova Gora?

11 A. I realised that the unit had more men than I could assume, that

12 there were other parts of the unit who joined us, who joined the unit as

13 its integral parts. I was particularly surprised with the size of the

14 reserve forces led by Gaja Bozovic.

15 Q. The record has you saying, I might have misheard it as

16 "Gaja" Bozovic. Could you please repeat the name of Bozovic.

17 A. Rajo, R-a-j-o Bozovic.

18 Q. Who was in overall command of the JATD and what was his position?

19 A. Jovica Stanisic was in charge of the entire operation. He was

20 the Commander-in-Chief.

21 Q. Who was immediately subordinate to Jovica Stanisic and what was

22 his position?

23 A. The JATD commander was Franko Simatovic.

24 Q. Who were the deputy commanders of the unit who were under the

25 immediate command of Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic?

Page 5110

1 A. The deputy commander was Milan Radonjic. And there was also

2 Dragan Krsmanovic, Zoran Rajic, and Major Filipovic.

3 Q. What responsibility did Dragan Krsmanovic have in the unit?

4 A. Dragan Krsmanovic was the logistics man. As far as I understood,

5 all the necessary supplies such as weapons were procured through him.

6 That was his job. Not only for our units, but also for the others.

7 Q. When you say the "others," what other units?

8 A. I mean all the units that were under the command of

9 Jovica Stanisic at the time, that is, the Serb Volunteers Guard and the

10 army of -- or rather, the soldiers of Fikret Abdic.

11 Q. What type of weapons were procured for your unit, these other

12 units, and the army of Fikret Abdic?

13 A. We had standard weapons. An automatic rifle 7.62 millimetre

14 calibre, and we had also special weapons for anti-terrorist operations.

15 The usual Hecklers MP5SD with the silencers. We also had Dragunov sniper

16 rifles, Black Arrow sniper rifles. Then Israeli-made machine-guns,

17 Israeli distance metres of the Ralph make, and other special weapons and

18 tactics gear.

19 Q. Were these the same type of weapons secured for the

20 Serbian Volunteer Guard?

21 A. I did see the members of the Serb Volunteers Guard. They had the

22 usual infantry weapons. As for special armaments, I'm not sure that they

23 had the same sort of weapons that we had.

24 Q. What type of weapons were procured for the army of the

25 Fikret Abdic?

Page 5111

1 A. Mostly automatic rifles, 7.62 millimetre calibre.

2 Q. You also mentioned Zoran Rajic; who was he?

3 A. He had the opportunity to see Zoran Rajic often in the camp at

4 Lipovica forest. At the beginning I used to ask, Who is that? And they

5 told me, This is Rajic, he is the leader of the volunteers group, part of

6 the unit that calls itself the Skorpions.

7 I was told that he was in charge of that unit.

8 Q. What were the responsibilities of Fica Filipovic?

9 A. Filipovic was a high-ranking officer in our unit. He trained us

10 in Kyokushinkai and self-defence while we were still at the facility at

11 Surcin Airport.

12 Q. Did the deputy commanders have command over both the regular and

13 reserve formations of the Red Berets?

14 A. I apologise, the interpreter used a word that I don't understand.

15 Could you please repeat.

16 Q. Of course. Did the deputy commanders that you've just described

17 have command over both the regular formation and the

18 reserve/paramilitary formations of the Red Berets?

19 A. Yes. He had command over all of them.

20 Q. When you say "he," who are you referring to?

21 A. Jovica Stanisic had responsibility for the entire operation.

22 Q. And with respect to Zoran Rajic, Fica Filipovic, and

23 Dragan Krsmanovic, did they also have command over both the regular and

24 reserve formations of the Red Berets?

25 A. As far as I understood, when Jovica Stanisic or Franko Simatovic

Page 5112

1 were absent, they had had certain tasks they had to perform based on an

2 authorisation.

3 Q. Who would this authorisation come from?

4 A. The authorisation to carry out any activity had to come from the

5 chief, Jovica Stanisic.

6 Q. Could you please describe the regular formation of the JATD?

7 A. A regular unit consisted of infantry, artillery, and the part of

8 unit that I knew at the time, that is, 40 people in all. Then we had

9 also helicopter unit, we had Gazelle and Bell Ranger helicopters. We

10 also had a mobile hospital which was on a bus.

11 Q. Who were the commanders of the regular units of the Red Berets?

12 A. The unit commander, the infantry section of which I was a part

13 was Dragan Lestaric. And the others, we had -- we also had some other

14 instructors.

15 Q. What were their names? Or if I may rephrase, were these the same

16 instructors that you have named earlier?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Who were the commanders of the reserve units of the JATD?

19 A. Rajo Bozovic, Zika Crnogorac, Dragan Pupovac, I'm not sure of

20 their exact roles and positions and which part of the reserve force they

21 commanded. But Rajo Bozovic had authority over the entire reserve force

22 there.

23 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution at this time tenders 20 exhibits from

24 the personnel records of the state security service of Serbia for

25 individuals mentioned by the witness from the bar table. There's a

Page 5113

1 pending 54 bis application from the Republic of Serbia in relation to

2 these documents, and the Prosecution requests that these exhibits remain

3 under seal for the time being. The Stanisic and Simatovic Defence have

4 indicated to the Prosecution that there are no objections to the

5 admission of these exhibits at this time. If the Chamber would like, the

6 Prosecution could go through them one by one for a clear record.

7 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber would prefer if you would list them.

8 Are they contained on the list the Chamber received, the table of

9 documents?

10 MR. WEBER: No, Your Honour, they are not.

11 JUDGE ORIE: They are not. Then would you please prepare a list

12 in which you set them all out and give a brief description of including

13 date and what it exactly is. And you said how many were there?

14 MR. WEBER: There's 20. We are going to be seeking 12 exhibit

15 numbers.

16 JUDGE ORIE: 12 exhibit numbers. So we already will ask

17 Madam Registrar to reserve 12 Exhibit numbers that would start at P471.

18 I know that there's one number which is not yet used, that's P443, but

19 for a series of 20 that seems not to be a good start to begin.

20 THE REGISTRAR: It's already used for the red beret, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Oh yes, we have used that now for the red beret.

22 So, therefore, that would be, Madam Registrar, P471 ...

23 THE REGISTRAR: P471 through P482.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Weber, if you --

25 Yes, Mr. Knoops.

Page 5114

1 MR. KNOOPS: Your Honour, with respect to personnel file 3 of

2 Mr. Bozovic already written submission pending before the Court.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Which would then -- a written submission. Of

4 course, I'm a bit lost; number 3, I have no list.

5 MR. WEBER: There's a chart that's prepared. It's just a matter

6 of printing it out. I believe counsel is referring to 65 ter 4332. This

7 is not actually a document that there's -- it's referenced in a written

8 submission, I believe, on Exhibit P179, marked for identification. If

9 counsel could correct me if that's the incorrect understanding. But I

10 believe the submissions actually as P179. And the Prosecution argue that

11 this document corroborates the authenticity of Exhibit P179.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And apparently that has been marked for

13 identification. I suggest that you print out that chart. Is it correct

14 in itself that there are no objections against admission of the

15 20 documents which would appear under 12 exhibit numbers?

16 I hear of --

17 MR. KNOOPS: Except for number 3.

18 JUDGE ORIE: What you said, Mr. Knoops, is there was a -- there

19 was a submission pending. Mr. Weber contradicts that and says that there

20 was a reference -- let me just see. The third one of your list, would

21 that be covered by the third exhibit number to be assigned, Mr. Weber?

22 MR. WEBER: It would. If there's an objection, if counsel could

23 state --

24 JUDGE ORIE: One -- yes, one second, please. So that would be --

25 on your list would be 473. Would that be -- because then we would deal

Page 5115

1 with P179 and what will be P473 together, because apparently there is

2 some authenticity issue with P179. We've received the submissions by the

3 Defence filed the 1st of April of this year.

4 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution was under the understanding that this

5 would not be objected to. But since it is being objected to on the same

6 basis, if the Prosecution could have leave to lead some evidence right

7 now on it.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, on your list -- before we -- I'd like to see

9 your chart before deciding on admission. Numbers P471 up to P482 have

10 been reserved for items on this chart, and I do understand that only for

11 P473 there would be a objection related to P179.

12 Yes. Please proceed. If you want to elicit evidence relevant

13 for the authenticity, please present it.

14 MR. WEBER:

15 Q. Did members of the Red Berets use short signatures?

16 A. Yes, they had nicknames that they used.

17 Q. Could you please describe what short signatures were used for by

18 members of the Red Berets?

19 A. They mostly used the names of different animals such as bobcat,

20 wolf, buzzard.

21 Q. Sir, I'm not asking about code-names, but I was wondering

22 actually when members of the Red Berets signed documents, did they use

23 their full signature always or did they use shorter signatures?

24 A. Sometimes they would sign a document with their full name, and

25 sometimes they would use short signatures.

Page 5116

1 Q. And what would be the reason that the short signatures were used?

2 A. I remember that on Petrova Gora once I received a per diem and

3 Milenko was up there too and they said, Sign with a short signature.

4 That's what they demanded probably to make it impossible to establish

5 later who signed which document.

6 Q. Did you have occasion to see the short signature of

7 Jovica Stanisic?

8 A. Yes, I did. I was in the office where Sladana was in the state

9 security building. Jovica left the office, came up to a desk, and signed

10 something fast. He used a fountain pen to sign that document.

11 Q. Approximately on how many occasions have you seen the shorter

12 signature of Jovica Stanisic?

13 A. I saw the full signature, well, at least 40 times.

14 Q. How about Jovica Stanisic's shorter signature?

15 A. Three to four times.

16 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 4332, which

17 I believe is marked for identification now as Exhibit P473.

18 Q. Sir, do you recognise this document?

19 JUDGE ORIE: Could we move the original a bit further up so that

20 we could see the signature.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This particular document is about

22 the vetting of some members of the unit. Those are who are mentioned

23 here. That was usual practice.

24 MR. WEBER: Could we please have in the B/C/S version the heading

25 at the top of the document.

Page 5117

1 Q. Do you recognise this heading as an authentic heading?

2 A. Yes. The heading was actually stamped on this document by the

3 Serbian state security service.

4 Q. Is this similar to the heading that you have seen on other

5 documents that were official from the state security department?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Are the numbers on this heading consistent with the numerical

8 sequencing of documents in the state security department?

9 MR. KNOOPS: Your Honour, we object to the leading nature of the

10 questions because this is clearly not in the statement of the witness.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 JUDGE ORIE: Well, of course the most appropriate way of putting

13 this question would be, Is it similar or not similar to ... but that goes

14 to a level of detail. It's understood that this is what you would like

15 to ask from the witness.

16 Witness, could you please answer the question.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it looks like it. I've seen

18 such stamps that were in the place of a heading.

19 MR. WEBER: If we could please have the bottom of the document in

20 the B/C/S version.

21 Q. Sir, directing your attention to where the signature is at and

22 understanding that you are not a handwriting expert, does this look

23 similar to the short signature of anyone?

24 A. It looks like the initials of Jovica Stanisic.

25 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit P79 [sic]

Page 5118

1 marked for identification.

2 I believe I misspoke --

3 JUDGE ORIE: P179 or 79?

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 5119

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 [Video-clip played]

25 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

Page 5120

1 "Everything is all right. Everything is all right. Just keep on

2 working. Say, what do you need?"

3 MR. WEBER: Your Honour --

4 Q. Sir, the video that is before you is paused at the 8 second

5 marker. Do you recognise the individual that is depicted on the screen

6 right now?

7 A. He looks like Boca Medic.

8 MR. WEBER: If we could move back just one second. If we could

9 go further. Right there.

10 Q. Is that a better view of the individual on the screen?

11 A. Yes, it is Medic.

12 Q. Who is Medic?

13 A. Medic was the Skorpion commander.

14 Q. And you said earlier that he looks like Boca Medic. Is Boca his

15 first name or nickname?

16 A. Boca was his nickname.

17 Q. Was Boca subordinate to anyone?

18 A. Yes, in combat activities. He was one of the commanders, and he

19 was subordinated to our command staff.

20 Q. When you say your "command staff," who are you referring to?

21 A. I'm referring to Jovica Stanisic actually.

22 Q. You've also mentioned that Zoran Rajic was a commander of the

23 Skorpions. What was the level of subordination between Zoran Rajic and

24 Slobodan Medic?

25 MR. KNOOPS: Your Honour, this is also leading.

Page 5121

1 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please rephrase the question, Mr. Weber.

2 MR. WEBER:

3 Q. What was the command structure between Zoran Rajic and Medic?

4 A. I think that Zoran Rajic was in charge of that unit. That was my

5 understanding. But I never saw Zoran Rajic personally issuing any orders

6 to that unit. I personally didn't see that.

7 MR. WEBER: If we could please continue to the 12 second marker

8 and pause.

9 [Video-clip played]

10 MR. WEBER: Pause right there.

11 [Video-clip played]

12 MR. WEBER:

13 Q. Sir, there's a second individual who now appears on the left of

14 Medic in the video. Do you recognise who this person is?

15 A. Miodrag [as interpreted] Ulemek, also known as Legija.

16 Q. Could you please re-state the first name of Ulemek?

17 A. Milorad Ulemek.

18 Q. Who is Milorad Ulemek?

19 A. Milorad Ulemek at that time was in charge. He was the commander

20 of the Serbian Volunteer Guard, and he was in charge of them in that

21 operation that we were engaged in in Kladusa.

22 MR. WEBER: Could we please play the remainder of the clip.

23 Q. And, sir, could you please watch and listen to the contents of

24 the video.

25 [Video-clip played]

Page 5122

1 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

2 "What do you need? Tell me. Goose. Goose. What do you need?

3 Tell me. Gooska, what do you need? Tell me. What do you need, Gooska?

4 "Down, down, Branko, down. In the left part, yes, in the left

5 part. I still have small problems with the right one.

6 "Well, go to hell. Give me, where is my Motorola?

7 "From this first house here. Come on and get. All right. In

8 that white house right from that one, that stable, and that hay there,

9 there where there is that trench.

10 "The white one, the biggest one?

11 "Yes, yes. I need a team to be sent here to take over. There

12 are five from 205.

13 "What idiots are they for fucks sake? They are idiots. Who has

14 brought them over here? Idiots.

15 "Come on, call Azim to send a team -- where? At Grmec?

16 "Yes.

17 "At Grmec to the command post to pick up a parcel.

18 "Fuck you and the parcel.

19 "They should kill them.

20 "Orkan, come in.

21 "Tell me, Orkan, come in, tell me, I'm listening.

22 "Well, we only need one.

23 "Well, fuck you. All right, all right, I solved it.

24 "Well, you try it just like that."

25 MR. WEBER:

Page 5123

1 Q. Sir, in the video that you just watched which I belive now has

2 ended at the 3 minute and 20 second marker. There's a reference to

3 Orkan, could you please explain what that is?

4 A. As far as I know, Orkan is a military piece. It is a

5 multi-rocket-launcher. And in this video-clip we can see that from Grmec

6 position they requested support, artillery support, or the other way

7 around. Grmec is an artillery position. Like, for example, in the

8 American, Alpha, Bravo, Charlie, we in the Yugoslavia army --

9 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Avala, Grmec, so G would stand for

11 Grmec.

12 MR. WEBER:

13 Q. With respect to the content of this video, can you tell what the

14 location is of this operation?

15 A. I can see a trench. And judging by the date, I would say that

16 this corresponds to the period when operations were underway in

17 Western Bosnia.

18 Q. With respect to the communications equipment that was used

19 throughout this video-clip, do you recognise it?

20 A. Yes, Motorola radios, ZGP 300, we had the same type of

21 communications equipment in our unit.

22 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution at this time tenders into evidence of

23 the video-clip from 65 ter 1180. If we could tender the full

24 3 minute and 20 second clip.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections? No.

Page 5124

1 Madam Registrar, the video-clip would receive number ...

2 THE REGISTRAR: This would be Exhibit P483, Your Honours.

3 JUDGE ORIE: P483 is admitted into evidence.

4 Mr. Weber --

5 MR. WEBER:

6 Q. Did you have occasion to see --

7 JUDGE ORIE: Are you -- could I first ask you, are you more or

8 less on track as far as time is concerned?

9 MR. WEBER: I'm a little bit behind.

10 JUDGE ORIE: How much?

11 MR. WEBER: There is still not the resolution of the per diem

12 list, so without knowing that, I should be able to progress through my

13 remaining examination in the next half-hour.

14 JUDGE ORIE: How does our schedule look for the coming days? We

15 had three days this week, if I'm --

16 MR. WEBER: That's correct. The Prosecution will finish with

17 this witness today.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

19 MR. WEBER: Then I believe that we do not know how much time will

20 be needed for cross-examination of this witness. And then I believe that

21 the Chamber had raised a question about next Tuesday which is not yet

22 resolved.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but is there any other witness waiting for ...

24 MR. WEBER: No.

25 JUDGE ORIE: So we have today and tomorrow.

Page 5125

1 Could I receive an indication as to the time needed for

2 cross-examination of this witness? Mr. Knoops?

3 MR. KNOOPS: Approximately one hour and a half.

4 JUDGE ORIE: One hour and a half.

5 Mr. Bakrac?

6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe that I will

7 not need more than an hour and a half altogether.

8 JUDGE ORIE: One second. You may use another half-hour, and

9 we'll then look at the per diem lists as a separate issue as far as time

10 is concerned.

11 Please proceed.

12 MR. WEBER:

13 Q. Did you have occasion to see Legija in Petrova Gora?

14 A. Yes, I had a number of occasions to see him because he came very

15 often. He visited the place where we were billeted.

16 Q. Did you ever hear any conversations between Legija and

17 Franko Simatovic or Jovica Stanisic?

18 A. I was standing guard when I heard a conversation which was taking

19 place in the office between Franko Simatovic and Milorad Ulemek Legija.

20 Q. Could you please describe this conversation?

21 A. Milorad Ulemek wanted to take over the operation to take Kladusa.

22 I don't know which one, the Velika or the Mala. And he wanted to

23 transfer some of the troops from Lemici and Popovic Brdo, and he said

24 that he would be able to mount a frontal attack and take that position in

25 question.

Page 5126

1 Q. Could you hear if Franko Simatovic said anything in response to

2 Legija's request?

3 A. Yes, he said, Okay, everything will be as we agreed.

4 Q. Approximately when did this conversation occur?

5 A. I can't give you the exact date, but it was sometime in November,

6 in the second half of November.

7 Q. Based on the interactions that you observed between Legija and

8 Franko Simatovic and Jovica Stanisic, could you please describe them?

9 A. Well, according to what I heard, one could tell from the type of

10 conversation that Milorad Ulemek was subordinated to Jovica Stanisic and

11 Franko Simatovic. I could tell by the way they talked.

12 Q. In paragraph 50 of Exhibit P441, you indicate that Fikret Abdic

13 arrived for meetings with Stanisic and Simatovic while you were in

14 Petrova Gora. How often did you see Fikret Abdic meet with

15 Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic?

16 A. He came and I saw him on several occasions when he came to the

17 office to talk to them. I can't give you the dates. I can't tell you

18 how often, but I'm sure that I saw him two, three, or even four times

19 when he came.

20 Q. In paragraph 49 of Exhibit P441, you describe two meetings that

21 you observed between Milan Martic and Stanisic and Simatovic. Could you

22 please describe each of these meetings.

23 A. I wasn't present during the meeting. I know that they came to

24 the command post where we were. On two occasions I saw them. On the

25 first one they came altogether at the same time in their vehicles, and on

Page 5127

1 the second occasion they came separately. And I'm referring to

2 Ratko Mladic and Martic.

3 Q. In your statement you refer to Ratko Mladic coming in

4 December of 1994 during the second meeting of -- with Milan Martic.

5 Could you please describe the exchange that occurred between

6 Ratko Mladic's men and the members of the Red Berets who were on duty?

7 A. I was standing on the terrace with a person whose nickname was

8 Njegos; he was a member of our unit. I was getting ready to go home.

9 Can I please look at the part of the statement where I stated

10 that? I would like to look at my own words, the way I described the

11 situation.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, I think the most --

13 MR. WEBER: It's paragraph 49.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The most appropriate way of dealing with it is

15 first to elicit what the witness remembers. And if there's any need to

16 refresh his memory, so -- but let's not start by refreshing the memory.

17 And I -- yes.

18 MR. WEBER: If I may read the statement, consistent with

19 92 ter practice.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Well, let's -- let's -- I know that it is, but let's

21 first -- yes.

22 Could you first tell us what your recollection is. And if there

23 are details you may have forgotten about, then we'll further look perhaps

24 at your statement. So could you please -- you started answering a -- the

25 question by saying that you were standing on the terrace with a person

Page 5128

1 whose nickname was, and then you mentioned his nickname, being a member

2 of your unit, and you were getting ready to go home. Could you please

3 continue to describe the exchange that occurred.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was standing with Negos. Mladic

5 approached us, and he said, Why are you in civilian clothes? At that

6 time I didn't know who he was, and I told him, Fatso, mind your own

7 business. After that, they entered the office where he was.

8 Stojan Zupljanin came with them. I spoke to Stojan Zupljanin's guards

9 and his driver. His name was Branko Simic, and the other was

10 Predrag Brestovac. And there was another man whose nickname was

11 Vuha [phoen]. And they told me that they had arrived from Pale.

12 MR. WEBER:

13 Q. In paragraphs 62 and 63 of Exhibit P441, you discuss your service

14 in Tara as a member of the Red Berets. In paragraph 63 you state:

15 "Members of the unit used the gym and swimming pool of the

16 Omorika Hotel for training."

17 Where is the Omorika Hotel located in Tara?

18 A. The hotel at Tara where the unit was billeted was a separate

19 facility with a complete infrastructure as any other small size hotel.

20 It was about 3 and a half kilometres away from hotel Omorika, and it

21 looked like a lower-category facility.

22 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have ERN 0675-6870A.

23 This is a photograph that was provided to the OTP in proofing in April

24 and shown to the Defence prior to the examination of the witness.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, may I first seek clarification.

Page 5129

1 You said "with a complete infrastructure as any other small size

2 hotel." Now, sometimes I find complete infrastructures in large hotels

3 rather than in the small ones. Is that what your testimony is?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wanted to describe the hotel, and

5 I wanted to tell you that the hotel looked as any other. The personnel

6 of that hotel was similar to any other hotel. It didn't have a swimming

7 pool or any other such things, but it had accommodation facilities, there

8 was a laundry room, there was a kitchen.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, I'm rather confused. The question was:

10 "Where is the Omorika Hotel located in Tara?"

11 Then you said:

12 "The hotel at Tara where the unit was billeted was a separate

13 facility with a complete infrastructure as any other small size hotel."

14 And then you say:

15 "It was about 3 and a half kilometres away from the hotel

16 Omorika."

17 So when you were asked to describe the location of the Om

18 orika Hotel, you apparently described the location or the facilities of a

19 hotel other than Omorika. Is that well understood?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, we were billeted in a motel

21 whose name was Tara. Our training took place in a different A-category

22 hotel which had a swimming pool as well. And that hotel, the latter, was

23 called Omorika.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that explains the confusion.

25 Mr. Weber, please proceed.

Page 5130

1 MR. WEBER:

2 Q. Sir, do you see a photograph in front of you?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Who is depicted in this photograph?

5 A. Djordje Kuburovic and myself. That was Djordje Kuburovic's room.

6 Q. Where was this photograph taken?

7 A. This photo was taken in the Tara facility where we were billeted,

8 where we slept.

9 Q. Just so we have a clear record, are you located on the right or

10 left in this photograph, as you are looking at it?

11 A. I'm on the right-hand side of the photo.

12 Q. Can you please describe the weapons that you are holding?

13 A. This is a machine-gun PKT-7.62 x 54 millimetres.

14 Q. When did you receive this weapon?

15 A. I received this weapon as part of the unit's armament. Actually,

16 this machine-gun was issued to Desimir Butkovic.

17 Q. Did you then acquire it at some later point?

18 A. No. At the time, I had a standard automatic rifle 7.62 and the

19 rocket-launcher, but for the purpose of this photo I took

20 Desimir Butkovic's machine-gun and that's how the photo was taken.

21 Q. Could you please describe the equipment depicted on the lower

22 left-hand side of this photograph?

23 A. Yes. You can see uniforms that we were issued with. You can see

24 the colour of the uniform, black and blue, which were used by

25 Special Police Units. And in the back you see back-packs used by the

Page 5131

1 American army. And most of those back-packs bore the insignia standing

2 for the United States, US. Behind me there are boots, Gortex boots,

3 which were very expensive at the time, and ankle boots that we used in

4 confined spaces for assaults and anti-terrorist activities and for

5 helicopter actions. This is all the equipment that we were issued with

6 during training at Surcin Airport.

7 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution tenders this photograph into

8 evidence.

9 JUDGE ORIE: In the absence of any objections, Madam Registrar.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Photograph under the 65 ter 5315 becomes

11 Exhibit P484, Your Honours.

12 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.

13 Please proceed.

14 MR. WEBER:

15 Q. At the end of May 1995, what was the reason that you decided to

16 leave the JATD?

17 A. Zvezdan Jovanovic was appointed the unit commander, and he

18 brought a man who was in charge of us. I can't remember his name. I

19 stood guard by a tree for 10 to 12 hours as a disciplinary measure, and I

20 could no longer bear that psychologically. I filed a request to leave

21 the unit. I handed it over. I returned all the equipment at the

22 Tara hotel, and I returned to Belgrade. Dragan Krsmanovic asked me how

23 come I left everything in Tara since I was not issued with the equipment

24 there, and he said that Zvezdan Jovanovic could not have received any

25 equipment from me, that it could only be done by the person who had

Page 5132

1 issued the equipment to me in the first place.

2 Q. In paragraph 63 of Exhibit P441 you state that you were later

3 told that you should leave the 72nd Brigade and you went to the Belgrade

4 headquarters of the Serb Volunteer Guard. What is the reason that you

5 were told to leave the 72nd Brigade?

6 A. The then-commander who was my superior in the

7 72nd Special Brigade where I started working after having left that unit

8 told me that he did not want to have any former members of that unit in

9 the 72nd Brigade. And they sent me to Mount Avala. And I was met there

10 by a security officer who then questioned me about Operation Pauk in

11 Velika Kladusa. He didn't actually have many questions about why I was

12 leaving the 72nd Brigade and who had sent me. I was told at the time

13 that they already knew that I had been a member of that unit even before

14 they heard it from me.

15 Q. You indicate that you subsequently went to the headquarters of

16 the Serbian Volunteer Guard after leaving the 72nd Brigade. How did you

17 know where the headquarters of the Serb Volunteer Guard was located in

18 Belgrade?

19 A. It was generally known that in the headquarters of the

20 Party of Serb Unity at Beograd Utica Street there was the reception

21 centre for volunteers who wanted to join the Serb Volunteers Guard.

22 Q. You say it was generally known. Who generally knew the location

23 of the headquarters of the party of the Serb Volunteer Guard?

24 A. The people I communicated with at the time. There were a number

25 of them who were already members of the Serb Volunteers Guard, and they

Page 5133

1 told me. So I meant the people around me. Milic is the last name of one

2 of them.

3 Q. What is the name that the Serb Volunteer Guard is commonly known

4 by to you?

5 A. They were called Arkan's Tigers.

6 Q. During your time in Erdut and Klisa, did you see any members of

7 the SDG who you knew from your time in Velika Kladusa?

8 A. Yes. I saw Big Rambo, who -- he was at Velika Kladusa, and he

9 was Sarac. He was a captain at the time. I met him, and he even gave me

10 a permit to go home. So he signed my permit to leave the area where I

11 was at the time, that was the camp at Erdut.

12 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have ERN 0675-6869.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Could I further inquire. You said you saw

14 Big Rambo. He was at Velika Kladusa. And what did you then say? And he

15 was ...

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was one of the commanders of the

17 Serbian Volunteers Guard.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Do you know his real name?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that his last name is

20 Bujosevic.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, please proceed.

22 MR. WEBER:

23 Q. Do you recognise this photograph?

24 A. Yes. It was taken in the village of Klisa. This is me and two

25 members of the SDG who were not members of my platoon. This was an

Page 5134

1 abandoned house. We found the personal documents of an elderly woman.

2 We simply took the opportunity to take a photograph.

3 Q. Where are you depicted in this photograph?

4 A. I'm the one who is standing.

5 Q. Do you recall the names of the two individuals who are sitting?

6 A. No, I don't remember the names. I only had my photograph taken

7 with them then.

8 Q. Could you -- I am sorry, was there something you wanted to --

9 A. I spoke to them, and I could tell by their speech that they were

10 not from Serbia. They must have been from some other area.

11 Q. Was this photograph taken during your service in the SDG?

12 A. Yes. It was taken at some time in 1995 in early December.

13 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution tenders this photograph into

14 evidence.

15 JUDGE ORIE: In the absence of any objections, Madam Registrar,

16 the number would be -- because I see it's uploaded as one out of a series

17 of five. You just want to tender this photograph?

18 MR. WEBER: Yes, and there will be one more.

19 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The photograph you -- the earlier one was also

21 one out of a series of five, so we are getting --

22 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, I didn't realise that they had all been

23 uploaded together. I thought that they were separate.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, because the two persons in the room is number 4

25 out of 5. Now, you want to have them separately --

Page 5135

1 MR. WEBER: The -- if we could, actually, because he is

2 describing them individually.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, the previous one, therefore, is the

4 fourth page out of five from the uploaded 65 ter number, whereas the

5 present one is the second page out of five as uploaded.

6 Madam Registrar, this --

7 THE REGISTRAR: So fourth page of 65 ter 5315 becomes

8 Exhibit P484, just for the record. And page 2 of the 65 ter 5315 becomes

9 Exhibit P485, Your Honours.

10 JUDGE ORIE: And in order to avoid whatever confusion, P485 is

11 ERN 0675-6869, whereas P484 is ERN 0675-6870A.

12 Please proceed.

13 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have page 1 of 65 ter

14 5315, which is ERN 0675-6868.

15 Q. Sir, do you recognise this photograph?

16 A. Yes. This photograph was taken at Erdut. This is behind the

17 reception facility for new recruits. Upstairs there was a cafeteria.

18 This is a platoon of the SDG which I -- to which I was assigned.

19 Q. When was this photograph taken?

20 A. I think that this was late October 1995.

21 Q. Are you depicted in this photograph?

22 A. Yes. But this photograph is deliberately blurred. I'm squatting

23 on the left.

24 MR. WEBER: It might be easiest if we actually -- if the witness

25 could be, please, provided a pen, and the Prosecution will ask the

Page 5136

1 witness to circle his location in the photograph.

2 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

3 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution tenders the screen capture that has

4 been marked by the witness into evidence at this time.

5 JUDGE ORIE: No objections.

6 Madam Registrar.

7 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit P486, Your Honours.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, photograph marked by the witness, P486 is

9 admitted into evidence. Please proceed.

10 MR. WEBER:

11 Q. Did you receive any type of payments as a member of the

12 Red Berets?

13 A. As a member of the Red Berets, yes, I received a salary and

14 per diems.

15 Q. When did these payments begin?

16 A. As members of the unit, we started receiving salaries -- well, I

17 actually think that we received something upfront from May on.

18 Q. When you refer to May, May of what year?

19 A. I'm talking about May 1994. Actually, no, I apologise,

20 June 1994. That's when I started receiving my salary and the per diems.

21 Q. How did you receive these payments?

22 A. We received our salaries in cash. The cash was in envelopes.

23 And we signed pay slips that we had received the salaries and the

24 per diems.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, if you are running out of time, isn't

Page 5137

1 this in the statement as well?

2 MR. WEBER: It is. And I'm almost finished, actually,

3 Your Honour, with my entire examination.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please, then.

5 MR. WEBER:

6 Q. Could you please -- it is in the statement. Just so we have it

7 on the record though, could you describe these envelopes?

8 A. They were specific envelopes that I only saw at these two places,

9 either at the JATD or at the SDG. There was a -- like, a table on the

10 back side of the envelope. The same kind that you would find enclosed

11 with your chequebook. And the table was blue, whereas the envelopes

12 themselves were white.

13 Q. How many payments did you receive as a member of the SDG?

14 A. Three times. I got three salaries. The first salary wasn't paid

15 out in full because I had only yet joined the SDG, whereas the following

16 two were full salaries. The amount was about 300 German marks.

17 Q. Was this more or less than you were paid as a member of the

18 Red Berets?

19 A. As far as I remember the amount, this was about half the amount I

20 received as a JATD member.

21 Q. Were you paid in the same manner while you were a member of the

22 Serbian Volunteer Guard as when you were a member of the Red Berets?

23 A. Yes. We got our money in the envelopes, but the bank notes were

24 brand new. And we were standing in line one behind the other with our

25 rifles pointed at the one in front. And that's the way we would come up

Page 5138

1 to the commander who would give us the envelopes with the salaries.

2 Q. Based on your experience with the Red Berets and the Serbian

3 Volunteer Guard, who was in overall command of Arkan's Tigers?

4 A. Based on what I was able to conclude, it was a unit controlled by

5 the state security of Serbia.

6 Q. On what do you base your statement that it was a unit controlled

7 by the state security of Serbia?

8 A. Well, let me first say that the staff of the

9 Party of Serbian Unity in Belgrade was guarded by men with automatic

10 weapons. And it wasn't possible or it wasn't allowed to use automatic

11 weapons for that purpose without a special permission from the MUP. By

12 the way -- or listening -- witnessing the communication between Legija

13 and his superior, I was able to tell that he was subordinate to the

14 one --

15 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please slow down and repeat.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could you please slow down for the

17 interpreters.

18 MR. WEBER:

19 Q. Sir, I believe you were saying that something to the effect "By

20 the way -- or listening -- the communication between Legija and his

21 superior ..."

22 Could you please continue.

23 A. Yes. By the type of communication between Legija and our staff,

24 it was clear that Milorad Ulemek was subordinate to them. The way that

25 per diems were paid out in special envelopes only at these two places,

Page 5139

1 then the use of long-barrelled automatic weapons to guard the

2 headquarters of the Party of Serb Unity or the SDG in Belgrade, then the

3 fact that uniformed persons were driving around in vans with a tiger

4 insignia. These people were armed, driving around Serbia. All that

5 tells me that this unit could not have behaved that way without the

6 consent of the Serb police and the state security and the like.

7 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, if I could have a moment.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Weber. May I draw your attention to the

9 fact that when I asked you not to ask questions on matters which are

10 already in the statement, that the next three or four questions were

11 exactly what we find already in the statement. And then you said you

12 were almost finished. I hope that that is true.

13 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, I believe the witness provided greater

14 detail than the -- than in his statement, and with the caveat that

15 there's unresolved issue as to a substantial number of exhibits, that

16 being the per diem records, the Prosecution doesn't have any further

17 questions. But we would still reserve or express the caveat that there

18 may need to be further discussion about those records.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, do you think that the next break would bring

20 you any further, or would it be a matter which the Chamber would have to

21 deal with after the break?

22 MR. WEBER: I'm not sure if it would or would not, but the

23 Prosecution is willing to discuss it with the Defence. It was a little

24 hurried right at the end coming back here.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll hear from you after the break.

Page 5140

1 We'll have a break, and we'll resume at five minutes past 6.00.

2 --- Recess taken at 5.38 p.m.

3 --- On resuming at 6.08 p.m.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, I have to formally put on the

5 record that P485 which is one of these photographs is admitted into

6 evidence, that was not yet clear.

7 Then, Mr. Weber, I don't know whether you've forgotten about it,

8 but we haven't heard any summary of the 92 ter statement. I don't know

9 whether you prepared it or not.

10 MR. WEBER: I did prepare it. Pursuant to the Chamber's

11 instructions of 18 February, 2010, I am ready to proceed with one. I

12 didn't know, because of the fact he is testifying publicly, if you would

13 want one, but I'm ready to proceed with one.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Well, the purpose is to inform the public about the

15 evidence which is not elicited viva voce from the witness but

16 nevertheless to enable the -- at the same time, of course, we've heard

17 quite a lot of detail. I don't know how long it is.

18 MR. WEBER: It's three and a quarter paragraphs.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then perhaps we first hear that so that the

20 public is better able to follow the proceedings. Have you explained to

21 the witness what the purpose of this is?

22 MR. WEBER: I had not.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Then I'll do it.

24 Mr. Sliskovic, Mr. Weber will read a summary of what the public

25 has not heard, which is the content of your statement. The public heard

Page 5141

1 some details but not the main body of it. And in order for the public to

2 follow the proceedings, Mr. Weber will briefly summarise it. It's not

3 evidence. You don't have to correct it. But he will read it out.

4 Mr. Weber.

5 MR. WEBER: The witness Dejan Sliskovic is a Serb male and former

6 member of the special anti-terrorist unit of the Serbian DB. This unit

7 of the Serbian DB is referred to as the JATD and commonly known as the

8 Red Berets. Mr. Sliskovic was recruited into the JATD by a local head of

9 an RDB centre in Pancevo. The witness went to the Serbian DB

10 headquarters at Kneza Milosa Street 103 in Belgrade and Dragan Krsmanovic

11 interviewed the witness after he underwent a medical check and

12 psychological tests.

13 Subsequent to this testing and interview, the witness reported to

14 the Serbian KB headquarters in Belgrade and received an official decision

15 confirming his employment with the Serbian DB. This decision was signed

16 by Jovica Stanisic. Mr. Sliskovic was then sent to the Serbian DB

17 facility in the Lipovica forest where he received training as a member of

18 the Red Berets. The witness's instructors included Vaso Mijovic, Fica

19 Filipovic, Zoran Rajic, and Drasko Suvara, among others.

20 During his time in the Red Berets, the witness learned that these

21 individuals were members of a paramilitary combat unit since the

22 formation of Captain Dragan's training camp at Knin in 1991.

23 Mr. Sliskovic travelled with other members of the regular

24 formation of the JATD in a convoy. This convoy was joined by

25 reserve/paramilitary formations of the Red Berets and also Arkan's Tigers

Page 5142

1 who were under the command of Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic. Upon

2 their arrival in Petrova Gora, the witness was deployed to guard the

3 facilities where Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic were located.

4 While on duty, Mr. Sliskovic saw Jovica Stanisic and

5 Franko Simatovic conduct a number of meetings. The meetings were held

6 with Milan Martic, Fikret Abdic, Milorad Ulemek, aka Legija, and

7 Stojan Zupljanin. In the spring of 1995, Mr. Sliskovic was sent to Tara

8 and served under the command of Zvezdan Jovanovic as a member of the

9 Red Berets.

10 The witness subsequently left the Red Berets and later joined the

11 Serbian Volunteer Guard, also known and referred to as the SDG or

12 Arkan's Tigers. As a member the SDG, Mr. Sliskovic was sent to a base

13 near Erdut. As a member of the SDG, the witness was paid in the same way

14 as when he was a member of the Red Berets. In addition to the official

15 decision of appointment signed by the accused Jovica Stanisic,

16 Mr. Sliskovic's employment with the Serbian DB as a member of the JATD is

17 confirmed on 25 separate per diem payroll records between the dates of

18 June 1994 and July 1995.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Weber. Finally, one little detail.

20 As far as geographical names are concerned, Mount Tara is familiar to the

21 Chamber, Petrova Gora is, Lipovica is, I think that it's the first time

22 that we have this location, but if the parties agree that it's

23 approximately 20 kilometres south of Belgrade, is that where we found

24 Lipovica forest?

25 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, I believe the witness did talk about

Page 5143

1 that in his statement. I didn't lead any evidence on it. I can lead it,

2 but that is our understanding.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That's okay. Then there's no problem in

4 relation to that.

5 And who will be the first Defence counsel --

6 MR. WEBER: Sorry. Excuse me --

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Oh, yes. First I have to inquire as to

8 whether any solution has been reached on the documents you were

9 discussing.

10 MR. WEBER: The short answer to that is no. The witness on the

11 stand is a witness who is able to authenticate a substantial number of

12 records from the state security service of Serbia. Before tendering the

13 witness, the Prosecution plans on tendering a total of 65 per diem and

14 payment records from the state security service. It is our understanding

15 based on the objection and concern that was raised by the Defence of

16 Mr. Stanisic that there were transliterations of some but not all of the

17 per diem records that were provided on this past week.

18 The Prosecution acknowledges that this is the case. The

19 Prosecution also would note that the Defence has notice of these names in

20 two forms: First, the accused were provided with all of these exhibits

21 in a language that is understood by them. The Simatovic Defence itself

22 understands Cyrillic. Second, the additional transliterations that were

23 tendered were just transliterations of the names, the remaining names

24 that were listed in these exhibits.

25 These names are also listed on different exhibits that were

Page 5144

1 completed in complete translations. So the Prosecution did inquire with

2 the Defence if there are particular names to which they feel there is a

3 prejudice. There are no names that have been provided to us.

4 Hence, the Prosecution would seek to proceed in this way: If

5 there is no objection to the relevance or authenticity of this witness,

6 with the witness on the stand with these 65 exhibits, then that is a

7 matter that the Prosecution can tender the witness and we can deal with

8 issues of notice as to whether or not there are any new or additional

9 names which would seek to cause any prejudice to either the accused in

10 written submissions.

11 However, if there are any objections as to the relevance or

12 authenticity of these documents, we do have a witness here present in the

13 courtroom who has provided lengthy comments on 25 of the exhibits to

14 which he has personally listed. As indicated earlier, these are per diem

15 and payment records received pursuant to an RFA that's now in evidence as

16 P469. In addition, there are detailed discussions as to the authenticity

17 of these records in P470, the confidential annex from Serbia.

18 We would submit to the Chamber that the similar names, stamps,

19 format, and signatures that are present on the 40 non-associated exhibits

20 convey a sufficient reliability upon those documents to warrant their

21 admission at this time without further testimony of the witness.

22 So we tender the floor to the Chamber with regard to this issue

23 and the Defence; do not know if it's acceptable to the Defence, if

24 there's an issue as to the notice of the new names that were

25 transliterated, if they would raise it within a reasonable period of time

Page 5145

1 in a written submission we can deal with it in that matter; otherwise, if

2 there is no objection to the relevance and authenticity, we can tender

3 the witness at this time.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. -- any response? Mr. Bakrac, you are the one

5 who is said to be able to read Cyrillic.

6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours, I indeed am able

7 to read Cyrillic.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, do you have any objections against the

9 bar table admission, more or less, of the series of documents that -- the

10 long series which we find on our list, isn't it?

11 MR. WEBER: There are 25, they are associated and highlighted in

12 green, and then there's an additional 40 that would be bar tabled. But

13 the witness is likely capable to testify to their authenticity.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

15 Any objection against any of these documents, and if so, on what

16 grounds?

17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours. I have no

18 objections. Albeit, I think that it may be convenient to ask this

19 witness whether or not he had seen such lists before his testimony at all

20 and whether he is familiar with them or whether he may have seen similar

21 lists.

22 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, this is discussed in the witness's

23 statements for eight pages between page 18 and page 26.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, lots of numbers are -- is there anything in

25 addition to what is already in the statement, Mr. Bakrac, that you would

Page 5146

1 like the witness to tell us about?

2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it was mentioned, but,

3 believe me, I'm not sure whether he commented what was shown to him or if

4 he said that he remembers those lists to be a payroll. That is what I

5 don't understand from his statement. My learned friend Mr. Weber indeed

6 discussed these lists. I meant that.

7 JUDGE ORIE: What then remains is whether he has seen this for

8 the first time now or whether he had seen it in the past.

9 MR. WEBER: Well, as it's indicated in the first one, he signed

10 it and recognised his own signature on the document. So it seems very

11 clear since his actual physical signature is on the document, it may not

12 be in the statement whether or not he saw it before, but he indicated he

13 signed the document, so I think there's an indication that he has

14 physically been in contact with the list before.

15 The other ones were signed by other individuals, and I think he's

16 clear throughout his statement that he saw lists like this one, he either

17 signed them or saw other people sign them.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Well, Mr. Bakrac, if there's any additional question

19 you'd like to put to the witness in cross-examination which is not

20 already clear, then you have an opportunity to do so.

21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, you are right.

22 That's what I will do. I apologise, my learned friend reminded me, it is

23 mentioned in the statement that he recognised his signature on some of

24 these lists.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Now, Mr. Jordash, the -- I think we identified the

Page 5147

1 issue on which your objection was based at the beginning of the testimony

2 as being one of notice. What you said, if I remember well, is that you

3 had some of the names were transcribed in the Roman script but now having

4 received all of the names transcribed in Roman script, you expressed some

5 fear that now the Prosecution would deal with the other names as well.

6 Now, I do not know exactly what was in the Roman script before and what

7 was added last Friday. If there's anything -- that seemed to be the

8 issue.

9 Now, you've heard the testimony of the witness and you've heard

10 the questions of the Prosecution. Is that still the issue?

11 MR. JORDASH: That is still the issue. We don't know, because we

12 haven't had time to check, as in the Defence, what has been translated

13 and what is new. The Prosecution say, Well, the names that have been

14 translated which you were newly notified of on Friday don't prejudice you

15 but we have no way because of the shortness of time of knowing that.

16 JUDGE ORIE: But let's just assume that you would not have

17 received that on Friday. What would have been your position then?

18 MR. JORDASH: Well, our position would have been that the

19 Prosecution had notified us of the evidence that they sought to rely

20 upon. They translated it. We had proceeded on that basis for the last

21 months and years that this is the evidence which is the case against the

22 accused. That in Cyrillic is not evidence because it's not in the

23 working language of the Court. We will not look at that because our

24 resources are limited and we look at what is the Prosecution case as

25 notified by that which has been translated.

Page 5148

1 JUDGE ORIE: But what I do understand is that the Prosecution

2 says, well, apart from the names we have given to you, There are others

3 on that list; that's all. Is there -- do you want to research whether

4 these others were not at home or ...

5 MR. JORDASH: Well, the big -- the issue in a way starts before

6 this. What the Prosecution - and we've raised this before - what the

7 Prosecution are doing is simply throwing names at us on lists and saying

8 these are the people who were in the JATD. And when witnesses then come

9 to testify in lengthy proofing sessions, as this witness himself

10 underwent, a meaning is put on the name. So we have a name in the list,

11 a witness comes along and says, Oh, yes, I remember that name; he did X,

12 Y, and Z.

13 JUDGE ORIE: But, now, has that happened here?

14 MR. WEBER: First of all --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Are there any names which were in the earlier

16 versions not readable for Mr. Jordash and Mr. Knoops on which you have

17 asked questions to the witness?

18 MR. WEBER: Not that I am aware of. With respect to these

19 exhibits, there are a lot of exhibits, and they are very extensive lists.

20 Now, some of them are in Roman, some of them are in Cyrillic. So the

21 Defence has the names in the Roman and they repeat in the Cyrillic and

22 vice-versa. So they've been aware of the names. It's just now that

23 we've completed the tranliteration of the -- of certain -- we just

24 completed the tranliteration of the ones that were in Cyrillic. So that

25 is our position. Again, not hearing any objection to authenticity of

Page 5149

1 these records, which, by the way, we're not saying that they are members

2 of the JATD, the Republic of Serbia is. And the Republic of Serbia is

3 saying that they are member of the state security service.

4 So the relevance of it seems quite clear. The authenticity seems

5 quite clear. The Prosecution's wanting to deal with the issue of notice.

6 If the Defence wants to put in writing in a short period of time how they

7 are prejudiced, we can respond.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.

9 Now, Mr. Jordash, authenticity or relevance, is that an issue?

10 MR. JORDASH: Well, dealing with authenticity, in terms of the

11 threshold employed by the Tribunal, probably not. Although it would be

12 useful for us to be able to check those translations of the names to be

13 sure. That's the first point. We would like to be able to have the same

14 opportunity to independently verify, come to our own conclusion as to

15 authenticity, as the Prosecution have had. They've had that opportunity.

16 They served the new translations on Friday. They stand there saying,

17 well, they're not prejudiced as to authenticity and relevance, and we

18 cannot come to that same independent view ourselves. So that's

19 authenticity.

20 In terms of relevance, we are in the same place. And I go back

21 to what I said a moment ago. The relevance is becoming apparent only

22 witness by witness, and that's why we are taking quite a cautious view.

23 When we have suddenly a new name translated from Cyrillic, it is not just

24 the new name that is going to be a problem, it is going be the new name

25 plus a new piece of evidence given by the next witness who is asked to

Page 5150

1 comment on that name and asked to say whether he recognises that name or

2 not and what that person on that list did.

3 JUDGE ORIE: But that's for the future. What we have as

4 relevance now is that we have lists of people that were apparently paid

5 in a certain system. Those lists this witness appears on. Now if -- as

6 soon as another witness would come and say, Oh, look, look, my name is on

7 them as well, I do not see what the relevance issue is. I can imagine

8 that you say relevance becomes a different one. That is, that we have to

9 further explore and further investigate that name on that list. But at

10 this moment those names who are on those lists where we have not heard

11 any specific evidence either by this witness or by any other witness at

12 this moment, it's just remaining names on lists, which lists are

13 apparently records of payments.

14 MR. JORDASH: But without any proper, in our view, explanation as

15 to relevance to the charges. Relevance as to the existence of the JATD,

16 we can concede that. Of course, if they are put forward as lists

17 relating to payments to JATD members, then they are relevant to that

18 issue. As to relevance to the charges --

19 JUDGE ORIE: But isn't the existence of the JATD to some extent

20 relevant for the charges?

21 MR. JORDASH: Yes, it is.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. So, therefore, we can't say that there's no

23 relevance.

24 MR. JORDASH: Well, we don't say there's no relevance, just not

25 sufficient relevance indicated by the approach the Prosecution are

Page 5151

1 taking.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. We'll deal with the matter. One second.

3 [Trial Chamber confers]

4 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber invites the Prosecution to tender these

5 documents as bar table documents. If the Chamber -- the only possible

6 concern the Chamber will honour is that notice has not been given to the

7 Defence on the relevance of those other names in view of testimony still

8 to be heard or evidence still to be presented. The -- although the

9 Chamber considers that this is rather a matter of weight to be given to

10 that evidence, the Chamber will, upon recent submissions, will give an

11 opportunity to the Stanisic Defence, if in further investigating names

12 that now suddenly are readable, although they were readable already for

13 the Defence at an earlier stage in Cyrillic, but upon now investigating

14 names which the Defence rightly or wrongly understood as not to be

15 focused on because they were only given in Cyrillic, then we'll hear any

16 recent submissions and find a remedy, or at least we'll consider whether

17 any remedy is needed then.

18 We do not urge the Prosecution to go through the whole of the

19 list. That seems to be not efficient. And the Chamber, therefore,

20 rather, proceeds in the most efficient way.

21 Mr. Weber.

22 MR. WEBER: On the 23rd of November, 2009, we've had a pending

23 bar table motion for all these exhibits now for a long time.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

25 MR. WEBER: And I don't know if the Chamber want us to re-file

Page 5152

1 this.

2 JUDGE ORIE: What -- of course, what would like to know is where

3 these all of them. I hope you understand that I haven't got them all in

4 my memory, exactly all the numbers. Is this -- there are more on that

5 list?

6 MR. WEBER: There are some more. Actually listening to everyone

7 in the courtroom, we're not very far apart. The Chamber hit it directly

8 on that this is relevant to show the existence of the JATD, the

9 Red Berets, that they existed.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Well, at least I asked Mr. Jordash whether he

11 said -- he said the level of relevance is insufficient.

12 MR. WEBER: And Mr. Jordash then expressed a concern as to

13 untransliterated names that are suddenly going to come out of the

14 woodwork as being, I guess, perpetrators. But the Prosecution translated

15 originally the key names to its case, so we are relying on these extra

16 names as to --

17 JUDGE ORIE: What you're doing is arguing again your position at

18 this moment, isn't it? Whereas the Chamber when I said you are invited,

19 perhaps I should have said that the Chamber does not insist on going

20 through those documents any further with this witness and at the same

21 time gives an opportunity to the Prosecution where -- to the Defence who

22 says, Well, we are not put on notice. But the annexes to the bar table

23 submission, were all the names already written? They were not written

24 yet in Roman.

25 MR. WEBER: I just wanted to add on. I didn't mean to interrupt,

Page 5153

1 Your Honour, just because it didn't sound like we were actually that far

2 apart on our perception on the documents. With respect to the record

3 that we have right now, would Your Honours like me to formally read in

4 the 65 ter numbers of the other 40 or just make that a part of the

5 submission?

6 JUDGE ORIE: If you would make that -- if you'd put that on paper

7 and make that submission, a written submission, so we have them all.

8 MR. WEBER: And before tendering the witness, is there a ruling

9 as to the objection as to the authenticity and relevance?

10 JUDGE ORIE: There was -- as matters stand now, there is no --

11 there is a challenge to the authenticity which is of such a general

12 nature that the Chamber will deny at this moment such a challenge. But,

13 again, if from the full list of names in the script you can read suddenly

14 matters would appear differently, then, of course, the Chamber will hear

15 from Mr. Jordash.

16 As far as the relevance is concerned, the level of relevance

17 which was considered by Mr. Jordash to be insufficient and in that

18 respect he more or less contradicted himself that he said that under the

19 case law of Tribunal it might be relevant material, that to the extent

20 that the level of relevance is considered by the Defence to be an

21 obstacle to admission, that is denied.

22 Are matters clear for all the parties?

23 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution would tender the witness with the

24 understanding that we do have a witness on the stand that can testify to

25 the authenticity or relevance of any of these documents. So absent any

Page 5154

1 particular objections to any of these individuals, we tender them.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I take -- I take it that if the witness could

3 tell us anything -- and the Chamber is not -- of course, authenticity,

4 the Chamber can, under the rules, can require evidence of authenticity as

5 it may be clear to you now that the Chamber is not requiring that, but,

6 of course, if there's any challenge to the authenticity which goes beyond

7 what we just heard, then Mr. Jordash and Mr. Bakrac have an opportunity

8 to see whether this witness could give any evidence which should -- which

9 would shed light on the possible lack of authenticity.

10 MR. WEBER: And it's just the Prosecution's understanding there's

11 no objection from the Simatovic Defence to the admission?

12 JUDGE ORIE: No, as far as I understand there is not. Then I

13 think we are ready to proceed. Who will be the first to cross-examine

14 the witness? Will it be the Stanisic Defence?

15 Mr. Knoops, you are on your feet.

16 MR. KNOOPS: Thank you.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Sliskovic, you will now be examined by

18 Mr. Knoops. Mr. Knoops is counsel for Mr. Stanisic.

19 Please proceed, Mr. Knoops.

20 MR. KNOOPS: Thank you, Your Honour. May I please have P484 on

21 the screen. P484.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Photographs usually take a while to be uploaded, and

23 I think it was a photograph.

24 MR. KNOOPS: Yes, sure.

25 JUDGE ORIE: It's my recollection that P484 was number five out