1 Tuesday, 5 November 2002

2 [Status Conference]

3 [Open session]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 3:01 p.m.

6 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Microphone not activated]

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour. Microphone

8 please. Microphone.

9 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Before beginning the hearing, I

10 should like to say good afternoon to everyone here present, and I would

11 like to ask Madam Registrar to call the case, please.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-96-23/2-PT, the Prosecutor versus

13 Radovan Stankovic.

14 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, madam.

15 For the transcript, can we have the appearances, please. First

16 for the Prosecution.

17 MR. RYNEVELD: Good afternoon, Your Honour. If it please the

18 Court, Dirk Ryneveld, appearing today with my co-counsel, Daryl Mundis.

19 And the Prosecution is prepared to proceed today.

20 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

21 And for the Defence?

22 MR. RADOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my name is Milenko

23 Radovic, attorney from Foca Srbinje, appearing on behalf of the accused

24 Radovan Stankovic.

25 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] I am Judge Amin El Mahdi,

1 Pre-Trial Judge for this case. I should like to refer to two orders: The

2 first, whereby the President of the Tribunal has attributed this case to

3 the first Trial Chamber; and the second order designating me by the

4 Chamber as the Pre-Trial Judge.

5 I should now like to address Mr. Stankovic. Mr. Stankovic, can

6 you hear me in a language you understand?

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.

8 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Do not hesitate to tell me if

9 there should be any problem regarding sound or any other problem or if you

10 wish to intervene, please do not hesitate to let me know.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

12 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13 As you know, we are today having a hearing in accordance with Rule

14 65 bis of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence. I know that there has been

15 a request by the Defence in connection with the form of the indictment. A

16 decision will probably be rendered in the next few days, but we would like

17 to make progress without waiting for that ruling, because that would be in

18 the interest of justice and above all in the interest of Mr. Stankovic

19 himself. And I wish to say that as Pre-Trial Judge, it is my duty in the

20 first place to make sure that the procedure is observed fully and that all

21 matters which might arise can be addressed fairly.

22 With your permission, I should like to address myself to the

23 Prosecution. Where do we stand with respect to the disclosure in

24 application of Rule 65?

25 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, Your Honour. I can indicate to the Court that

1 under Rule 66(A)(i) the supporting materials, of course, which had to be

2 disclosed, those have in fact been disclosed to the accused. My

3 understanding is that although on the 12th of July, I believe, that was

4 the Initial Appearance, the accused appeared with different counsel. It

5 became clear that he chose a different counsel, and the Prosecution was in

6 correspondence with Mr. Radovic and due to Mr. Radovic's request, the

7 supporting materials were actually provided to him after the 11th of

8 August. Rather than send them to him through the normal mail, he wanted

9 to come and pick them up. But it was at his request and I believe he

10 acknowledges that he has received timely receipt of the supporting

11 materials, although technically speaking it was 30 -- it was beyond 30

12 days, we were prepared to give it, but we wanted to comply with Defence

13 counsel's request.

14 With respect to the additional matters under 66(A)(ii), I can tell

15 the Court that we have been streamlining this case. We have had to redact

16 many of the materials that have been -- documents, et cetera, and

17 statement which is were used in the trial of Kunarac et al. And we are

18 almost at a position to be able to provide the Defence with additional

19 material in full compliance with Rule 66(A)(ii), so we're well on the way

20 to being able to fulfil our Rule 66(A)(ii) disclosure obligations.

21 I can also tell the Court that we've invited the Defence counsel

22 to a meeting in our office immediately after this Status Conference in

23 order to see how it is that we could perhaps efficiently speed up the

24 process and collaboratively work out the pre-trial phase of this case.

25 We are, of course, constantly aware of our Rule 68 obligations,

1 and we are going to be disclosing any Rule 68 material that comes to our

2 attention, as is our obligation.

3 Those are my general comments, Your Honour, but we are fairly

4 confident that this case can be streamlined. And I've asked Mr. Mundis,

5 actually, to address you later with some particular matters. But since

6 Your Honour has raised the issue of the challenge to the form of the

7 indictment, and the fact that the Court is contemplating ruling on that

8 matter in the next few days, I thought it only prudent to advise the Court

9 that since Mr. Mundis and I have been assigned to this case, we have been

10 looking at ways of streamlining the case, reducing the total number of

11 witnesses, and we can also say that we have been reviewing the indictment

12 itself, and it is possible that the Prosecution will actually be making an

13 application to amend the indictment, to streamline it even further;

14 however, we also anticipate that there could be three additional counts:

15 Of rape, enslavement, and outrages upon personal indignity arising out of

16 incidents concerning an individual by the pseudonym of DB in the period

17 following her detention a the Karaman's house.

18 So that is by way of, shall we say, an indication to the Court

19 that that is what we are anticipating. And Mr. Mundis, I believe, will be

20 addressing the topic later in the Status Conference if the Court would

21 like to hear us on it.

22 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. But I would

23 like to make sure of one thing, however, and that is the following:

24 You're saying that you're thinking of modifying yourself the indictment.

25 I think that you responded to the request of the Defence, to the motion of

1 the Defence, and I do not recollect that I read or that the Chamber was

2 seized of your position, so this is an absolutely new position.

3 MR. RYNEVELD: Absolutely -- yes, absolutely correct, Your Honour.

4 I became involved in this file after the filing of the response to which

5 you refer. I might say that of course we cannot do this without leave of

6 the Court, and this is the first opportunity that we have had in order to

7 address the Court with respect to the potential that we may be seeking

8 leave of this Court. And I thought it was only prudent to advise the

9 Court of our contemplation of seeking leave to amend the indictment prior

10 to the Court ruling necessarily on the form of the motion as it presently

11 exists.

12 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] May I seek a point of

13 clarification. If I understand you correctly, you said that you have been

14 in contact with the Defence counsel. Did you raise this issue among

15 others, this issue of amendment to the indictment?

16 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honour, that -- I can say -- what I've told

17 the Court is that we have today invited Defence counsel to meet with us

18 after the Status Conference. The only thing that Defence counsel knew is

19 that we were inviting him to a meeting. One of the topics was going to be

20 our proposed amendment to the indictment and other matters. So this has

21 not been discussed with Defence counsel. He knew nothing about the

22 meeting until moments prior to our 3:00 Status Conference. This is all

23 very recent development.

24 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you for those

25 clarifications.

1 Can I now ask Defence counsel -- excuse me. Mr. Stankovic, did

2 you want to say something?

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please. I have to

4 say at my Initial Appearance I was allotted -- designated an attorney. It

5 wasn't somebody I had chosen of my own free will.

6 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] If I understand well, now the

7 counsel that you have is a counsel of your choice, isn't it? The Defence

8 counsel here present is a person of your choice?

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, this one. But the one at the

10 Initial Appearance was officially designated. He wasn't my attorney. At

11 my Initial Appearance, I didn't even ask for an attorney. I rejected the

12 possibility of having one. So I'd like that to be quite clear. I

13 wouldn't like to give the impression that I had one attorney at the

14 Initial Appearance and then I decided to change him.

15 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Please

16 don't speak so quickly because the interpreters have a hard time following

17 you.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am sorry. I speak rather fast.

19 It's part of my nature.

20 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Never mind. In any case, I can

21 assure you that the Initial Appearance was before another Chamber, another

22 Pre-Trial Judge, and today we are beginning, if I may put it that way,

23 from scratch, from the beginning.

24 So could I now ask the Defence counsel to address us, if he has

25 anything to say, with regard to the disclosure of documents, witnesses,

1 and so on.

2 MR. RADOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, what my learned friend

3 opposite has said is quite right, that the Defence on the 26th of August

4 at my own request received the indictment and the statements of 13

5 witnesses with the pseudonyms which were disclosed in accordance with Rule

6 66(A)(i). The Defence has up to now managed to study closely the amended

7 indictment and the witness statements served on it. We have also been

8 able to review a certain amount of documents linked to the issue of rape

9 as processed by this Tribunal so far, as well as the appropriate

10 literature, and we are continuing our efforts along those lines.

11 The Defence, as you are aware, filed a motion against the

12 indictment, and the Defence has also received the response of the

13 Prosecution to this motion and submits that at this point in time there is

14 no need for any position to be taken with respect to the allegations of

15 the Prosecution.

16 The Defence expects further disclosure of documents or any

17 information to the effect that there is no more material to be disclosed

18 by the Prosecution, upon which the Defence, after having received all the

19 material pursuant to Rules 66(A)(ii), will be able to assess the time it

20 will need for preparations for trial.

21 I wish to point out that I have been appointed as Defence counsel

22 for the accused Stankovic for a fixed term. And for the Defence to be

23 able to continue its work in preparation of the case, it would be

24 necessary for a decision to be taken on my designation for an unlimited

25 term, in view of the fact that we have provided to the Registry all the

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1 necessary documentation for such a decision to be taken. The Defence will

2 naturally pay attention to its obligations as emanating from Rule 67, of

3 course, depending on the steps taken by the Prosecution.

4 The Defence expects the Prosecution to act in accordance with Rule

5 68 and to provide us as soon as possible with all exculpatory material in

6 its possession so that this, too, might be of assistance to us in

7 preparing our case.

8 The Defence will certainly do its best not to delay the

9 proceedings unnecessarily and will do everything in its power to prepare

10 the case for a fair and expeditious trial. Though this case in terms of

11 its complexity has been ranked as at the highest level, from the

12 standpoint of the Defence it is rather a complicated case and will

13 certainly require some time for the Defence to collect Defence evidence,

14 especially with regard to the identification and location of potential

15 witnesses.

16 And finally I should just like to point out that the Defence will

17 within the deadlines fixed seek to fulfil all its obligations that Your

18 Honour, as the Pre-Trial Judge, will assign on the Defence and especially

19 its obligations emanating from paragraph G of Rule 65(F) and 73 ter.

20 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. If I have

21 understood you correctly, you have raised two questions: The first has to

22 do with your final appointment as Defence counsel. Have you taken the

23 necessary steps with the Registry to that end?

24 MR. RADOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, yes. And as I just

25 pointed out, I have filed all the necessary documents for my appointment,

1 as well as documents regarding the material position of my client.

2 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And when was that? How long ago

3 was that when you filed your request and the necessary documents?

4 MR. RADOVIC: [Interpretation] I filed all those documents to the

5 Registry on the 27th of August. However, one document linked to the

6 property of my client, and before coming to The Hague I spoke to the

7 financial inspector, Mr. Jovanovic, and my secretary yesterday forwarded

8 that document as well, so that having mailed that document, the Defence

9 has completed all the documents required for my appointment as permanent

10 Defence counsel for Mr. Stankovic.

11 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So you're saying that only

12 recently you provided the document that was missing. Was that two days

13 ago? A week ago? When was that?

14 MR. RADOVIC: [Interpretation] All the documents regarding me,

15 myself, were filed on the 27th of August.

16 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] No, no. I'm talking about the

17 necessary document requested by the Registry concerning the financial

18 status of Mr. Stankovic, if I understand you correctly. When did you

19 submit that document?

20 MR. RADOVIC: [Interpretation] All the documents regarding Radovan

21 Stankovic, the accused, were filed by me on the 27th of August, 2002,

22 except for one document, which was required of me by the financial

23 inspector and it has to do with the financial status of the accused and

24 regarding his ownership of a vehicle.

25 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Well, it's precisely in

1 connection with that document that I'm asking you. When did you submit

2 that particular document?

3 MR. RADOVIC: [Interpretation] That document was faxed yesterday,

4 according to what my secretary tells me. It was sent by fax to the

5 Registry yesterday.

6 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

7 I believe that Mr. Mundis wanted to raise a few issues.

8 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Your Honour. I briefly rise to my feet

9 simply to give the Trial Chamber through Your Honour as the Pre-Trial

10 Judge a brief overview as to where the Prosecution or the approach the

11 Prosecution seeks to take with respect to this case. I think that's

12 helpful for planning purposes and will certainly benefit the Chamber as it

13 attempts to deal with the pre-trial matters concerning this case.

14 As Mr. Ryneveld has indicated, we will be meeting later this

15 afternoon with Defence counsel Mr. Radovic. Among the issues that we

16 anticipate will be raised during the course of that meeting would be

17 potential grounds of agreement between the parties so that we can begin

18 that process of attempting to narrow the issues which the Trial Chamber

19 will be faced with.

20 Perhaps in addition to any agreed-upon facts or in the event those

21 discussions are not successful, the Prosecution will very shortly be

22 filing a request pursuant to Rule 94(B), requesting the Trial Chamber to

23 take judicial notice of certain adjudicated facts which were the result of

24 the Kunarac trial and appeal. Given that the Kunarac case and the current

25 case are closely linked, Your Honour, we will be filing a motion

1 requesting for the Chamber to take judicial notice of certain adjudicated

2 facts as established through the Appeals Chamber in the previous related

3 case.

4 In addition -- and of course also dependent upon any agreed upon

5 facts which the parties are able to reach -- the Prosecution anticipates

6 relying upon Rule 92 bis (D), whereby we will request the Trial Chamber to

7 accept or to admit into evidence certain transcript evidence from the

8 witnesses who testified in the Kunarac et al case.

9 Once the Trial Chamber has addressed these two motions, which

10 again we anticipate filing shortly, and of course having due regard for

11 any agreed-upon facts which the parties may or may not be able to reach,

12 the Prosecution would then be in a position to file its 65 ter documents

13 to include pre-trial brief, witness list, and exhibit lists.

14 At this time -- and again, assuming the Prosecution has some

15 success with respect to the motions which I've just described for you --

16 the Prosecution anticipates calling between 12 and 18 witnesses in its

17 case in chief. Again, assuming that we're able to rely upon judicial

18 notice of adjudicated facts and transcripts pursuant to Rule 92 bis (D),

19 the Prosecution expects its case in chief to last between two to four

20 weeks, in total. Assuming the Defence is allocated approximately this

21 same period of time, the Prosecution, Your Honour, anticipates this entire

22 case to last between six and eight weeks. We would expect, given the time

23 frame for the filing of the various document which is I've indicated, an

24 opportunity for the Defence to respond, and at least with respect to Rule

25 92 bis (D), which anticipates the parties being heard, as well as 94(B),

1 which similarly anticipates the parties being heard, the Prosecution would

2 anticipate that by spring of next year this case would be ready to go to

3 trial via a rather streamlined process again, assuming that the

4 Prosecution is successful with respect to its submissions under the two

5 Rules that I previously mentioned. So the Prosecution's position, Your

6 Honour, is that this is a relatively short case, that pending resolution

7 of pre-trial issues which the Prosecution will be filing shortly, this

8 case will be ready to go in the springtime and will be a very streamlined

9 case by the standards of the International Tribunal.

10 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Mundis.

11 I should like to take advantage of this opportunity to invite you

12 to cooperate with our extraordinary legal officers who have just joined

13 the Tribunal. And I appreciate his professional qualities, as well as his

14 personal ones, his character, and I should like to call upon both parties

15 to cooperate with him. I'm talking about Mr. Harhoff, the senior legal

16 officer, and that the conduct of this case and these proceedings, the

17 pre-trial proceedings, in fact, I invite you to cooperate with him. And

18 as far as I understand, there's a meeting today that has been scheduled.

19 So I should like to invite the parties to attend the meeting, to get

20 together perhaps somewhere where Mr. Harhoff will designate, in his

21 offices or wherever. But that doesn't matter. It's the substance that

22 counts. And I do hope that the parties will be fully aware of the fact

23 that everybody wishes to see justice done, justice with a capital "J,"

24 which means that this calls for all of you to pull your efforts and see

25 that we have justice and that justice is not only done but seen to be

1 done. Justice must be seen to be done.

2 Having said that, I should like to ask Mr. Stankovic if he has any

3 observations to make, any comments perhaps at this point in time. Would

4 you like to say anything, Mr. Stankovic? And you can feel free to say

5 what you would like.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I would like to ask that my

7 case --

8 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Slowly, please, Mr. Stankovic, to

9 facilitate the work of the interpreters.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I should like to have my case set

11 aside from the other accused, severed. I don't want it to be linked to

12 Kunarac, Kovac, and the other people, because the time period encompassed

13 by the indictment --

14 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Could you please speak slowly for

15 the interpreters, Mr. Stankovic.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I will, Your Honour.

17 So this period of time for which you charge me in the indictment,

18 I should like to say that I never even knew those people, so I didn't know

19 Kunarac or Kovac or the others, the rest of them. And from all this, I

20 can draw one conclusion on the basis of what the Prosecutor said as

21 well --

22 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Mr. Stankovic, this isn't the

23 proper time to bring up the substance of the case. What I'm asking you

24 now regards procedure. We're going to have ample opportunity to hear you

25 at length. You'll have all the time you need to express yourself or

1 through the intermediary of your Defence counsel. But what I would like

2 to hear from you now is your health. How is your health? Is it -- are

3 you in good health? Do you have any complaints?

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Relatively good. Relatively good.

5 I say "relatively" because who can say that he is fine when he's in

6 prison.

7 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Detention isn't prison.

8 Detention is detention, and there's a difference. Until proven guilty, so

9 we can't call this "prison" yet.

10 MR. RYNEVELD: Excuse me, Your Honour. If you're now embarking on

11 those questions -- is it your intention to do this open session or in

12 closed session this part of the proceedings? I've seen it done in both.

13 I just wonder if Your Honour wants to deal with the accused's concerns, if

14 any, if --

15 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] If you wish to deal with any

16 questions with respect to protected persons or persons who enjoy

17 protective measures, we can, of course, go into private session or closed

18 session.

19 Madam Registrar, which is it, private or closed? Is it the same

20 thing?

21 THE REGISTRAR: Private. Private session.

22 JUDGE EL MAHDI: Yes, partially? You asked for partially?

23 MR. RYNEVELD: No, Your Honour. It's just that I don't know what

24 Your Honour's preference would be. But in some other cases I have seen

25 the questions about the accused, concerns about prison or anything --

1 issues involving his health done in private session. I just didn't know

2 whether we were going to be doing that in private session or open

3 session. It matters not to the Prosecution.

4 JUDGE EL MAHDI: No, no, it's open session. I can assure you.

5 [Interpretation] And I think that it is important for everybody, not only

6 those of us in this courtroom but elsewhere - I see that there are people

7 in the public gallery - but if you wish to go into private session for

8 anything --

9 MR. RYNEVELD: No, thank you, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you too.

11 I think that that concludes our task for today. If nobody has

12 anything to add --

13 Defence counsel, would you like to add anything?

14 MR. RADOVIC: [Interpretation] Not for now, thank you, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you too.

16 On that point I declare the meeting closed.

17 --- Whereupon the Status Conference adjourned

18 at 3:38 p.m.

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