1 Thursday, 26 February 2004
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning. If I could remind you once again of
7 the affirmation that you took, Mr. Jusic.
8 Mr. Petrovic.
9 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
10 WITNESS: DJELO JUSIC [Resumed]
11 [Witness answered through interpreter]
12 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrovic: [Continued]
13 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Jusic.
14 A. My respects to you, sir.
15 Q. You mentioned that on the 5th of December some public address
16 system had been installed on the -- at the JNA positions. Is that
18 A. Yes, it is correct.
19 Q. Tell me, was this the first time that you heard anything of this
20 kind being installed at JNA positions?
21 A. Yes. This was the first time. That was at Zarkovica hill and
23 Q. What is your conclusion? How did -- why -- on the basis of what
24 did you conclude that those people on the hill knew what was happening in
25 Dubrovnik and when it was happening?
1 A. Despite all the hardships that it had experienced, Dubrovnik tried
2 to live a normal cultural life, so that on the 5th, as I already stated in
3 my statement, organised the concert to commemorate the 200th anniversary
4 of Mozart's death, and this was aired on Radio Dubrovnik. So it was
5 nothing underground or secret that this concert was being held.
6 Q. And in your statement, you also said that on that day, they were
7 playing Serbian nationalist songs.
8 A. Yes, that is what I said.
9 Q. Do you remember exactly what songs, specifically which ones, what
10 kind of songs?
11 A. They were songs played to the -- sung to the accompaniment of the
12 gusle, and I was familiar with them. I knew them. I had even sung some
13 of them myself, but the texts were -- the lyrics were changed on that day.
14 Q. Do you remember what the lyrics were like?
15 A. I remember the lyrics of one song. It is a bit vulgar, if the
16 Trial Chamber will allow me.
17 Q. How vulgar? In what way? Do you think, do you feel that the
18 gusle instrument is the test of the cultural level and sophistication of a
20 A. I think that every nation has its own, like Dubrovnik has the
21 lijerica which is a string instrument which is typical of Dubrovnik; and
22 in Slavonia they have the tamburica and also the mandolin in Dubrovnik.
23 So every nation has the right to choose its own instruments, but I
24 personally like these songs which were sung with the gusle, which extols
25 Serbian and Montenegrin heroism and valor. It was something which I
1 liked, it was not something which I didn't like or found to be
3 Q. Let's move on to the 6th of December. The day before yesterday,
4 in response to a question by my colleague, you spoke about the fortissimo
5 of events taking place on the 6th of December, and in that context, you
6 said that on that day in regard -- or, rather, ships and aeroplanes and
7 cannon were opening fire on Dubrovnik. Am I right?
8 A. Yes, you are.
9 Q. Tell me, were you -- did you record, did you film any aircraft
10 which was operating on that day?
11 A. I know that there were aircraft flying above because I could
12 recognise them by their sound, and that even had taken place in August and
13 in September. They were flying very low behind my back towards the fort
14 up there, and I am familiar with the sound of a diving plane when it
15 dives, plunges, or when it fires a missile. I'm familiar with those
16 sounds so I could recognise them.
17 And as for the rest, I saw that.
18 Q. And did you hear on the 6th of December -- this diving of planes
19 sound and the bombing of Srdj?
20 A. Yes, I did.
21 Q. I also suppose that on that day you saw these gunboats opening
22 fire at the Old Town and the city of Dubrovnik.
23 A. Yes, several gunboats. At least four.
24 Q. Be so kind as to tell me, approximately where were -- where were
25 these four gunboats that were opening fire at Dubrovnik on the 6th of
1 Dubrovnik [as interpreted], vis-a-vis Dubrovnik, if you can describe.
2 A. Yes, of course. I believe that you are familiar with the layout.
3 They were in front of Lokrum and Kupari. For instance, along this stretch
4 one was to the right from Lokrum and another one farther down towards the
6 Q. Can you tell me as you were observing them on that day how
7 frequently that they opened fire? At what intervals did you hear the
8 gunboats, did you see the gunboats open fire?
9 A. Well, look here, it wasn't exactly such a concentration that I was
10 able to follow the numbers of the firings, but it was quite frequent, and
11 of course I had to see to it that I saved my own life. I wasn't sure
12 whether the gunboat would be opening fire in my direction or elsewhere.
13 One of them did open fire with the projectile landing under my window, and
14 all the panes collapsed. And it is really strange how much glass there
15 can be in a single apartment when it is all shattered and caves in. So I
16 was actually lashed at by these gunboats.
17 Q. When did this happen?
18 A. This happened on the 6th.
19 Q. So your flat was hit on the 6th of December?
20 A. No. A shell landed below my window, and there is still a hole in
21 the wall, and all the windows and all the glass in my apartment was
22 shattered, and it fell inside my apartment.
23 Q. Did you film this damage?
24 A. I don't think I did, because by comparison, compared to other
25 people's damage, their burnt houses and palaces, it would be quite pitiful
1 on my part to actually concern myself with just that damage which I had
2 sustained. It was impossible to get windowpanes, by the way, but I
3 managed to somehow solve this problem.
4 Q. So on the 6th of December, your flat sustained such a serious
5 damage and you did not film it by your camera -- with your camera.
6 A. Sir, I didn't say it was serious damage. It was damage which was
7 not serious in comparison to the damage sustained by other houses and
8 palaces in Dubrovnik that had been demolished and where much more precious
9 things and objects were. For me it was much more important to record the
10 other damage in the city rather than this pitiful glass in my own flat.
11 Q. What else happened in your house? Everything was turned upside
12 down, the glass was shattered. What else happened?
13 A. I have this armchair which I enjoy sitting, smoking, puffing away
14 on my pipe, thinking, so it cut through my -- the glass which fell into
15 the flat cut through the fabric on the armchair exactly where I used to
17 Q. And tell me, what did your flat look like after everything?
18 A. It was a shambles.
19 Q. And how did you feel in respect of your flat at that moment? Was
20 this the only damage that had been inflicted on your damage -- on your
22 A. Look, here, the damage which I sustained was spiritual, of an
23 inner nature. This was descending lower into the mud, if I can put it
24 that way.
25 Q. Mr. Jusic, how is it possible that today, after the two statements
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13 English transcripts.
1 that you made, after the examination-in-chief by my colleague, after my
2 own cross-examination for two days, this is the first time that you
3 mention that your own flat had been hit, that there was damage to your own
4 flat? How is this possible, Mr. Jusic?
5 MR. KAUFMAN: Your Honour, with all due respect, I believe this is
6 actually the first time that the question has been asked. So it's not the
7 subject of an attack on a previous inconsistent statement or previous
9 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Kaufman. Carry on, Mr. Petrovic.
10 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Be so kind as to give me an answer. So your life was at risk;
12 shrapnel whizzed by you, hit in the chair where you normally sat, and you
13 never mentioned that throughout all these examinations. How is that
15 A. You know what --
16 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Petrovic, that is distorting the evidence given
17 by the witness, obviously unconsciously. There was no mention of shrapnel
18 coming into the apartment, merely of glass being shattered by an
19 explosion. And if a chair was cut, on the evidence so far, it would be
20 glass, not shrapnel.
21 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour.
22 Q. Would you explain to us what was damaged and by what.
23 A. You keep saying that the shell landed in my flat, and you keep
24 seeking to trip me by your additional questions, but I will do my best not
25 to do that. What I said was that the shell landed below my apartment, not
1 in the apartment. There was an explosion. Because of the explosion, the
2 detonation, this pressure shattered all the windows, and there are still
3 many holes on the house facade caused by these lead or iron parts, and one
4 of these iron parts hit my chair and cut through it, and this was perhaps
5 red hot iron. I believe it was red hot, being able to pierce through
6 walls and through the house. So it didn't fall in my flat, in my house,
7 but under my house, below my house.
8 Q. So this red hot iron, as you put it, was a piece of that shell;
10 A. Probably.
11 Q. So if shrapnel hit your flat, your chair, and all but killed you,
12 why didn't you say so? Why didn't you tell it to the investigators? Why
13 didn't you say it to the gentleman from the OTP? Why didn't you tell it
14 to us? We've been talking about all this for three days now.
15 A. Sir, we have only just broached this subject. And as I said
16 awhile ago, this was not of the essence for me. It was -- but in
17 comparison to the other damage and the other disgrace caused by your army.
18 Q. Mr. Jusic, please be so kind as to be dignified in this court and
19 refrain from characterising my -- characterisations of the kind "my army,"
20 "your army," and the like.
21 So you did not film all of this because thought it unimportant?
22 A. Not because it was unimportant but because there were other things
23 that were much more important.
24 Q. So this hit was from the gunboat; right?
25 A. I'm no expert on weaponry. It was -- shells were flying from
1 every conceivable quarter. There was shooting from every conceivable
3 Q. And when did this happen?
4 A. I told you it was on the 6th, as for the date.
5 Q. And the hour?
6 A. I don't know. It was perhaps midday, 1.00.
7 Q. Where were you when this happened?
8 A. I was on my balcony at the time, in a corner, huddling in a corner
9 like a mouse, crouching, and filming what was actually going on in my
11 Q. So you were huddling like a mouse in this corner of your balcony
12 and filming. And where is this film, Mr. Jusic?
13 A. You saw it. This is the recording of the shooting at Dubrovnik.
14 That is the film.
15 Q. But, Mr. Jusic, we saw nothing of the kind on that footage, that
16 there was an explosion, a shrapnel passing by, getting inside, passing by
17 your head. Where can we look for it?
18 A. You didn't view it carefully, obviously. Please don't mind my
19 saying so, but you can see precisely on the footage how this grapevine
20 leaves climbing up my balcony are there. You can see how I'm thrown back
21 by the pressure of the detonation and, therefore, the whole picture
22 changes. All this was obvious.
23 Q. So this was the exact moment when the shrapnel flew into your
25 A. No, no. The shells were landing, and the nearer the shells
1 landed, the more pressure was exerted on me by the air, the detonating
2 air. Whether it was that precise moment, I'm not sure, but you can see me
3 veering at that particular moment.
4 Q. At any rate, the moment when this fracas took place, when the
5 shrapnel flew into your flat, this was filmed?
6 A. I wasn't turned towards my flat.
7 Q. But -- but your camera was on at the moment when this was
9 A. Yes, and I was recording Dubrovnik. I was filming Dubrovnik.
10 Q. So at no point you turned this camera to film what had happened in
11 the -- in your flat. Your -- the camera didn't just fall out of your
12 hand. Nothing happened. You tottered a bit but you continued filming
13 Dubrovnik; is that what happened?
14 A. Exactly.
15 Q. How far was this explosion of this shell from your flat?
16 A. About 25 metres to the right from my flat, under my balcony. It
17 hit a tall palm tree, which you can see on the footage. I filmed it
18 before but I didn't film it afterwards when just the trunk remained.
19 Q. Was it destroyed, demolished?
20 A. No, just the trunk remained of the palm tree. The crown was
21 knocked off.
22 Q. How high up is your balcony in relation to that palm tree?
23 A. They are more or less the same, but perhaps the palm tree is a bit
25 Q. So the shell hit the palm tree.
1 A. Yes, and the house that is underneath mine, and that's where a man
2 got killed.
3 Q. Then?
4 A. A man in that house underneath my window got killed by one of the
6 Q. You didn't consider that to be important enough to tell the
8 A. Honey, I'm answering your questions. You didn't ask me that. Ask
9 me, and I'll tell you everything.
10 Q. In relation to my learned friend Mr. Kaufman's question, you were
11 telling us the day before yesterday about the month of October.
12 Mr. Kaufman didn't ask you anything, and you said that in the month of
13 October, a shell from the gunboat hit the apartment of the poet Milisic
14 and he got killed by that.
15 A. That is to my left, the palm tree is to the right, and Dubrovnik
16 is in the middle.
17 Q. That's not what I'm asking you.
18 A. I'm just trying to explain the position to you.
19 Q. I'm not asking you whether it's left or right. Mr. Kaufman did
20 not ask you anything, and you told him, "I want to tell you about the poet
21 Milisic," and now you're telling us that nobody asked you about the
22 shrapnel flying around your apartment, and you're surprised and you say,
23 "Nobody asked me about this." Well, nobody asked you about Milisic either
24 and nevertheless you talked about it.
25 A. Well, listen, sir; you're somewhat younger than I am, and I
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13 English transcripts.
1 imagine that you will learn this some day. In life, there are things that
2 are important, very important, of utmost importance, and of lesser
3 importance. I talked about the most important things that were happening.
4 Q. This man who was killed by a shell that flew into your apartment
5 too, isn't that the most important? Is he as important as any other
6 person who got killed?
7 A. At that time, I didn't know his name. Later on, I learned his
8 name. Later on, I also learned that his two young children were orphaned
9 and that his wife was widowed.
10 Q. Didn't this tragedy make you feel that you should talk about that
11 too? It happened below your very own window.
12 A. Look, when these investigators came to see me and when I talked to
13 Mr. Kaufman, I was told that I would basically talk about the cultural
14 damage sustained by Dubrovnik, and that is what I chose to talk about too.
15 If you're interested in anything, please go ahead and ask me about it. I
16 am prepared to answer your questions.
17 Q. I'm asking you once again: Are you sure that this was on the 6th
18 of December? Please give me an honest answer. Are you sure?
19 A. Please don't use the word "honest." Of course I'm going to give
20 an honest answer. Perhaps I'll get confused about some dates. I don't
21 know if you were ever in a situation when there was shooting all around
22 you and when you did not know whether you would survive the next moment or
23 so. I think that this is too unfair, let's put it that way. Because
24 Dubrovnik was not attacked only on the 6th. It was also attacked in
25 November and then also a few times in 2002 [as interpreted]. So I cannot
1 give you the precise days and hours. So my answer is: I don't want to
2 lie to you, I am giving an answer, and I'm not quite -- I always tell you
3 I'm not sure about something, but this what I talked about now happened on
4 the 6th for sure.
5 Q. All right. If I were to tell you that this was perhaps in 1992,
6 when the town was also attacked, is it possible that it happened then?
7 Because there were very serious attacks that took place in May and June,
8 more serious than the ones that we're talking about now.
9 A. Why are you asking me that when you know better?
10 Q. I'm asking you whether it is possible.
11 A. It is possible, but this thing with my window happened on the 6th.
12 That's for sure.
13 Q. All right. Tell me, please, how could you tell from which
14 direction shells were coming?
15 A. I saw the gunboats. I saw them, and that can be seen on the film
16 too. So when it fires a shell, there is a lot of smoke. On the eastern
17 side, from Zarkovica and Bosanka, that is so nearby it is as if somebody
18 came right to your ear and then caused an explosion. Some shells
19 travelled quite long or, rather, I think that they came from the airport,
20 or people were saying that they were coming from the airport or Trebinje.
21 And this is my feeling, especially in view of my musical ear.
22 Q. Let us distinguish between the two. I'm not asking you about what
23 you saw on films, video footage, and whatever. I'm asking you about what
24 you heard on that particular day. I did not ask you about what you saw on
25 videotape and then assessed it this way or that way. What was your
1 judgement then on that day? What was coming from where?
2 A. Mr. Petrovic, I am sure that I put this very precisely. I told
3 you that I saw them shooting from the gunboat. I heard this shooting from
4 Bosanka Zarkovica because it was so nearby, and then by their sound I
5 could tell that some shells were coming from afar. So I think that I've
6 been very precise.
7 Q. Can you distinguish between firing and detonation? Can you
8 distinguish between the two? Do you know what the difference is?
9 A. I said that on the first day. Firing is a single thing, and then
10 when a shell would fall, there would be 15 or 20 reverberations. You
11 couldn't tell where it was coming from; the sky, the land. That's what I
12 talked about the first day.
13 Q. And why can firing not be heard in that way too?
14 A. Well, it probably comes from a forest. It is camouflaged, so
15 there is not enough space for this sound to develop.
16 Q. Which forest? Do you know which one?
17 A. Well, Zarkovica and Bosanka are forested, and then also behind the
18 hills, too, there are forests. It's quite clear.
19 Q. Are there any forests in Lapad, Babin Kuk, Ilijina Glavica,
21 A. Bogisica Park?
22 Q. Yes.
23 A. There are pine trees, and there are Cyprus trees.
24 Q. So you heard firing and then you would hear 15 reverberations of
25 the detonation that was caused by the firing?
1 A. It's very acoustic. It's acoustics: Dom, dom, dom, dom. That's
2 it. It's as if somebody had spilled something.
3 Q. And all of it came from a single shell?
4 A. Precisely.
5 Q. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if I understand this properly, from
6 one or two shells one had the impression that this was a burst of gunfire.
7 A. No. One had the impression that it was hell, that it was inferno.
8 Q. Do you know what the sound of firing is as far as a mortar is
10 A. No idea whatsoever.
11 Q. Do you know what the sound of a howitzer firing is?
12 A. Now that you mention all these words, please don't judge me too
13 harshly, but when you say "howitzer," it sounds so serious. It must be a
14 very serious sound that comes when it's fired.
15 Q. What about a cannon?
16 A. As you put it, "top," as you said.
17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note that is the word for cannon
18 in B/C/S.
19 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. What about a recoilless gun? How does that sound?
21 A. Never saw any such thing. Never heard it. Only saw it in the
22 movies. I think there was this film made by Montenegrin television as
23 young men were firing proudly from this so-called recoilless gun.
24 Q. Did you watch any films from Dubrovnik with this kind of content,
25 describing the war in 1997 -- sorry, 1991?
1 A. What do you mean from Dubrovnik?
2 Q. HTV, for instance, Croatian television.
3 A. You know, I have to tell you one thing; the HTV cannot pride
4 itself at having been present in Dubrovnik. We did a lot more filming.
5 Q. What with Vedran Benic, a friend of yours that you mentioned
7 A. Vedran Benic used my music when he made this film about the
8 Imperijal Fortress.
9 Q. What kind of film is this about the Imperijal Fortress?
10 A. He shot a film which tells the truth about this fortress. It
11 tells its history, not only the history today.
12 Q. Have you watched this film?
13 A. No, I don't think so. I was not in Dubrovnik then. I know that
14 he wanted to have my music as a sound track because it made it more
16 Q. Did you perhaps ask him what he said about recent events - not so
17 recent any longer; 1991, 1992 - in that film?
18 A. I haven't seen it.
19 Q. Were you interested in how your music was used in that film?
20 A. Look, he's my friend, and let me draw a parallel line straight
21 away. A friend of mine from Belgrade called me about ten years ago or
22 more, and he asked me, "Can I use your song Dok Palme Njisu Grane so that
23 it could be used as part of the Partizan football team anthem?" And I
24 said, "Yes, that's fine." So it's being played and sung until the present
25 day. I like that team, the black and white team.
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13 English transcripts.
1 Q. All right. Is that the film that dates back to 1994?
2 A. Which one?
3 Q. Benic's film, the one we're talking about.
4 A. I don't know the exact year. Look, it is 2004 now.
5 Q. Is it true that on the 6th of December you recorded everything
6 that is of importance on your tape, as you put it?
7 A. I did record what was of importance to me; the palaces, the
8 festival building, old institutions, cultural institutions. I didn't --
9 Q. Please focus on my question. I'm asking you the following: Is it
10 correct that on the 6th of December you recorded everything that you
11 considered to be of importance, on the 6th of December?
12 A. Well, look, on the footage, you saw that people who were in the
13 streets, if there were any at all, they were walking right by the walls.
14 I walked right by the walls too. Even if I wanted to, I could not have
15 come closer to many of the buildings that I wanted to come close to. So
16 there was a state of alert on and it was possible for a shell to fall even
17 then. It is a personal risk I took, and that is how I displayed my love
18 for my town, and even at the risk of my own life.
19 Q. If you filmed this on the 6th of December, when was that other
20 footage shot when we can see that there were shells falling in the old
21 part of town?
22 A. On the 6th. I entered the town on the 7th, sir. I entered the
23 town on the 7th and recorded all of this. We resolved that yesterday.
24 Q. We did not resolve that. You keep telling me about all these
25 things that happened on the 7th. I'm asking you about the 6th.
1 A. On the 6th I'm on my balcony and I'm filming Dubrovnik, and we saw
2 that. First we watched the 7th, and then we watched the 6th. So I could
3 not have been in two places at the same time. On the 6th I'm filming the
4 town from the balcony, and on the 7th I'm in town.
5 Q. I'm going to ask you for the third time.
6 A. Go ahead.
7 Q. Is it correct that on the 6th of December you recorded everything
8 that was of importance on your tape?
9 A. From my balcony.
10 Q. Yes.
11 A. I filmed where the shells fell.
12 Q. Did you film everything that you considered to be of importance?
13 A. Around midday, I ran out of batteries, so then I was filming
14 until, say, midday or 1.00.
15 Q. Do you perhaps recall telling us yesterday that around 12.00 or
16 1.00 you stopped filming and then you recharged your battery so that you'd
17 have it for the next day?
18 A. No, no, no. That's not what I said. I said that sometimes I
19 would stop so that my batteries would not run out, but I said that that
20 day I filmed for as long as I could, but then I said that I raced over to
21 Revelin or some other building where there was electricity in order to
22 recharge my battery, and I went normally when there was no curfew. Of
23 course I remember what we talked about yesterday, the day before
24 yesterday. I remember that very well. And it's going to be very hard for
25 you to trip me this way, but it's your job to try to set these traps for
2 Q. Fortunately, Mr. Jusic, there is a transcript.
3 So on the 6th, when did you go to recharge that battery?
4 A. Sometime after 5.00 or 6.00, something like that. Something like
5 that. And that's when the shelling stopped too.
6 Q. Where did you recharge it? You didn't tell us.
7 A. At Fort Revelin. That is on the right-hand side as soon as you
8 enter town. They had a generator.
9 Q. Tell me, did police vehicles ever enter the Old Town of Dubrovnik?
10 A. Police vehicles? No. No. No. Definitely not, no.
11 Q. Tell me, please, in relation to Pavo Urban, what do you know about
12 this young man's death? How do you know about this? How come you know
13 about it at all?
14 A. It can be seen from the last photographs taken exactly where he
15 was. And then his mother, who is nearby on her window, and she saw her
16 child being killed. That's how I know. And I knew the young man as an
17 incredibly brave young man who went all over the place and took
18 photographs. He made some beautiful photographs.
19 Q. So his mother watched his death from her window. Where does his
20 mother live?
21 A. His mother lives somewhere, say, in Zudioska or Boskoviceva, in
22 that area. That's one or two streets in that area.
23 Q. So from Zudioska Street she saw her son being killed?
24 A. I did not say Zudioska. It's between Zudioska and Boskoviceva. I
25 cannot say exactly. I know approximately the window where these people
1 live, and I know the man who ran across the street and recovered his body
2 from Dubrovacko-Neretvljanska but it was too late.
3 Q. Do you know when the Dubrovnik Zupanija was established?
4 Briefly. If you don't know, you don't know.
5 A. I don't know exactly. Probably after the first elections because
6 that is when these Zupanija districts were established.
7 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers please slow down.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First it was in the City Hall, now
9 it is across the street from the Rector's Palace.
10 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. In the Old Town, right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Do you know who was the county governor, the head of the Zupanija
14 in this period?
15 A. I believe it was Dr. Jure Buric.
16 Q. Did Buric play any role in the Crisis Staff?
17 A. No, he didn't. He played no role. In fact, I don't know. I
18 never saw him at any specific meetings or consultations. He is a doctor.
19 He is a specialist in otorhinolaryngology - ear, nose, and throat
20 specialist - and he was elected in Dubrovnik at the legal elections.
21 Q. Is it true what you told us the other day -- excuse me. I
22 withdraw my question.
23 Tell me, awhile ago you said that everything which was important
24 on the 6th of December you filmed. Now, tell me, how much tape did you
25 use up on the 6th of December?
1 A. I told you yesterday that I used one whole tape and a part of
2 another, a VHS tape.
3 Q. So if I'm adding up numbers well, you told us you used 120 tapes.
4 A. No. I said I was using 60 tapes, 120 tapes, and I'd given up the
5 240 ones.
6 Q. Which one did you use on that day?
7 A. I believe 120.
8 Q. And the other one, what was it?
9 A. This is what I filmed a birthday, a birthday celebration with me
10 and my friends partying, and it is about ten or 15 minutes, and there was
11 some space still left on it.
12 Q. So on the 6th of December, this is how much tape you spent.
13 A. No. No. We were watching this car, and I had been using it to
14 film from November. It was not only in December.
15 Q. Let's try again. How much tape did you use on the 6th of
16 December? For how long were you filming? How long was the camera on?
17 A. You mean minutes?
18 Q. Hours, minutes, whatever.
19 A. It was on. The camera was on for two hours or two and a half
20 hours, as long as the battery -- until the battery expired. You know
21 what? From time to time I would seek shelter. I'm not that much of a
22 hero. I was not standing on my balcony all the time. I fled
24 Q. So for two hours and a half. All right. Since from the 6th of
25 December, on the tape which was shown to the Trial Chamber, you have nine
1 minutes and 25 seconds of that particular data. Tell me, where are the
2 two hours and 21 minutes of material that you filmed on the 6th of
4 A. Mr. Petrovic, you keep talking about the minutes and hours. I
5 never said that I filmed for all that time. I just said that one tape
6 lasted for 15 minutes and the other for a certain period of time which
7 doesn't add up to two hours more than that.
8 Q. But that two -- five minutes ago, but two minutes ago I asked you
9 how much did you film, for how long did you film that day, and you
10 replied, "For two and a half hours." This is page 27 -- 20, line 17.
11 A. It is one thing how much I was standing on the balcony and how
12 much I was actually filming. You asked me how long was the camera
13 continuously on. Well, I would turn the camera on and off. This is the
14 type I spent on the balcony. But I cannot say exactly I was filming for
15 an hour and fifteen minutes or so. There were interruptions. I would run
16 inside for some refreshments, for a drink, then I would return, to get
17 back to normal, that is. So it was not a continuous two and a half hours
18 filming. That is why there cannot be that much material.
19 Q. How much material did you film on the 6th of December? Let us not
20 waste our time in this manner. We are under the obligation to go through
21 this as quickly as possible. How much material in terms of time, in terms
22 of duration, did you film on the 6th of December?
23 A. I probably filled one tape, but then I edited the interruptions,
24 the pauses, so that I actually omitted the pauses in the final version.
25 Q. Tell me, where is this material which you so edited?
1 A. Yesterday I invited you to come to Dubrovnik for us to view this
2 tape together, and this invitation still stands.
3 Q. Thank you. So everything which is important is within the nine
4 minutes and 21 seconds -- 25 seconds.
5 A. Everything which is the most important.
6 Q. What falls within the category of important things?
7 A. What is important, what is the most important for a house flying
8 into the air, being blown up, to be seen. It is the most important for
9 the Festival Palace to be seen ablaze, that the St. Blaise Church has been
10 demolished, there is a hole in the Stradun, that all the gates of the town
11 have been devastated, that there is a hole in the bell tower.
12 Q. Do you perhaps need a pause, Mr. Jusic?
13 A. No, no, no, no.
14 Q. What I'm asking you is about the 6th of December. This is what I
15 keep insisting on while you're telling me --
16 MR. KAUFMAN: Your Honours --
17 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Kaufman.
18 MR. KAUFMAN: It appears that the witness is in the middle of an
19 answer, giving a detailed list of buildings that he saw in a state of
20 damage or ablaze. Mr. Petrovic is cutting him off in the middle of his
22 JUDGE PARKER: Well, if Mr. Petrovic hadn't, I would have. We're
23 finding this very difficult, Mr. Jusic. You have two relevant filming
24 days, the 6th of December and the 7th of December. On the 7th of
25 December, as I understand your evidence, you went about the Old Town and
1 identified and recorded various buildings of significance that were
2 damaged and some general other scenes. On the 6th of December, we have
3 only a few minutes of actual footage which we have seen here. What
4 Mr. Petrovic is trying to find out is what else was it that you recorded
5 on the 6th of December rather than on the 7th.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. No. This
7 is really likable, this congenial conversation where, you know, dribbling
8 like football, like soccer players. I said decidedly that I filmed over a
9 period of two and a half hours on the 6th of December and that after that
10 I just edited out the big pauses, the interruptions in the film between
11 the two shells or between my going to get a drink of water and to, you
12 know, keep body and soul together, restore myself to a normal state. That
13 was on the 6th.
14 And on the 7th I regained my composure and very calmly toured my
15 city with my camera, and that is what I show on that film, because I was
16 only interested in the devastation of the cultural facilities and
17 monuments in the city. And this is what I very precisely showed and said.
18 And whether it was a minute more, a minute less, I think is immaterial. I
19 really invited, in the best of faith, Mr. Petrovic to come to my city so
20 that we can together tour it. We can travel today, I to my city, he to
21 his and one day we can together see what happened there. This is what I
22 sought to show in this movie, the most important things. Thank you.
23 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Jusic, that brings me back to the 6th of
24 December. We have only a few minutes of footage. Is that the only
25 footage you took of shells exploding and similar things on the day?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is possible that there were some
2 things which are of a lesser importance, but that is why I'm offering this
3 possibility for us to view once again this film, everything that I have.
4 JUDGE PARKER: Well, thank you for that, but we're concerned with
5 what is here, and we're trying to understand what else you filmed on the
6 6th that is not shown on the footage that is here. At the moment from
7 you, it seems that there are passages where there was interruption and
8 in-between stuff of no significance, and perhaps you added then at the end
9 that there may be some amount of material that showed more of the attack
10 on the city. Is that about it or is there something new and different
11 that you filmed on the 6th of December?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I said very precisely that
13 there are some less important things. These things were the more
14 important for me. What I'm saying is no one forced me, no one compelled
15 me, no one paid me nor engaged me to film that. No one actually compelled
16 me to come to testify before this distinguished Chamber. This is all a
17 question of my goodwill as a man who wants to tell the truth in keeping
18 with the affirmation that I have made, that I will indeed be saying the
19 whole truth and nothing but. And if Mr. Petrovic would acknowledge that
20 I'm saying the truth and I have only filmed what I thought was the most
21 important to be presented in this court.
22 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Petrovic has a role to perform on behalf of his
23 client, and he's been trying to understand the difference between the few
24 minutes of footage that we do have and your account that you could have
25 been filming for over two hours, and that is what he is doing.
1 Now, Mr. Petrovic, I think we may have just about exhausted this
2 area. The Chamber is well aware of the differences between the footage
3 and the accounts of the amount of filming that occurred on the 6th, and
4 that's what is of significance for your purposes, I believe.
5 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
6 Q. How many shells landed, how many hits on the Old Town were there
7 on the 6th of December?
8 A. I cannot tell you the number, but at this moment in Dubrovnik, on
9 the east side at the gate to the city, you have a layout of the city, as
10 well as on the west side, and you have all these impact sites indicated by
11 black marks. I believe that they have it here in the archives. I could
12 not tell by the just sound of the shells how many thousands or hundreds of
13 them there had been, but there were very many.
14 Q. So there were many -- several hundreds or thousands?
15 A. No, not thousands but let us say, you know in all fairness, a
17 Q. So all this refers to the Old Town; right?
18 A. Yes, to the Old Town.
19 Q. And I suppose that if not all of them -- all of it, you filmed
20 most of it.
21 A. Look, when there is a house being demolished, flying into the air,
22 now as you can see on the footage very nicely, I really cannot tell
23 whether it was caused by one or two or five shells, but it was inferno.
24 Don't ask me to give you any expert answers.
25 Q. I'm not asking you for any expert opinions. I'm just asking you
1 whether you filmed most of it or all of it.
2 A. Of course I did. I had to react. I turned my camera on when I
3 saw it and I filmed it. I didn't have a, you know, a camera on a tripod.
4 I had -- I carried it on my shoulder.
5 Q. Will you be surprised, Mr. Jusic, when I tell you the following:
6 At 3.58 hours, one shot was filmed. I'm referring to the time indicated
7 on your tape. So 3:58. At 4:18, a hit south from the Stradun was -- is
8 on your film. At 4:34, you have filmed smoke billowing above Srdj. At
9 6:18, you have filmed two impacts to the south of the Stradun. At 7:25,
10 you have an impact on the music school. At 10:14, a hit in the area of
11 the music school. At 11:35, a hit in the area of the Stradun or to the
12 north of Stradun. And at 13:07, you filmed a shell falling either in the
13 general area of Stradun or to the south of Stradun.
14 Mr. Jusic, you filmed nine impacts of shells landing in the Old
16 A. And what is the question?
17 Q. Is it the case that you actually filmed the impacts of nine shells
18 landing in the Old Town?
19 A. Well, you know what? Dubrovnik is an amalgamation of beauty,
20 tradition, centuries-old culture. It is as if you had a beautiful girl
21 and just tore off a nail from her finger. It wouldn't be the same girl
22 any more. When you say -- when you refer to these nine impacts, this is
23 terrible. This is disastrous, you know, to throw nine shells on such a
24 beautiful girl and set afire nine mansions.
25 I said awhile ago that you have an indication at the entry to the
1 city of exactly how many shells had landed on the city, which is confirmed
2 by the United Nations, by UNESCO. So it is not a falsehood. And had I
3 just filmed one of them falling, that would have been sufficient. It
4 would have been a shame to throw stones at this beautiful lady let alone
5 shells. That is what I'm saying to you.
6 Q. So you filmed the nine, but nine is too much.
7 A. It is too much. It is way too much.
8 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] May I ask Ms. McCreath if she can
9 help me now. Would you kindly show the -- from the first part of the tape
10 minute 3 -- the third minute and ten seconds, that is. If it's not a
11 problem, please.
12 [Videotape played]
13 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Please stop.
14 Q. Mr. Jusic, can you see this picture in front of you?
15 A. Yes, I see the gunboat.
16 Q. Tell me, when was this filmed?
17 A. Look, here. These gunboats moved about for two or three months.
18 So this is a bit too much. You're asking me a bit too much, because they
19 were there for at least three months, you know, cruising up and down
20 and -- by Dubrovnik and opening fire.
21 Q. Did you edit this film in a chronological sequence?
22 A. No. No, no. I just provided information. I wasn't thinking like
23 a director, like a movie director. I was just -- my only consideration
24 was to show these things.
25 Q. So you don't have -- the clips are not in chronological sequence?
1 A. I didn't even think about it. I don't know whether it is in
2 chronological sequence or not. My only consideration was to show as many
3 things as possible, to show the gunboats, to show the shelling, for the
4 shells to be heard.
5 Q. So you --
6 A. You can see this gunboat just opened fire. You can see the smoke.
7 Q. Where do you see this smoke?
8 A. To the right from the captain's bridge. That is smoke.
9 Q. Maybe.
10 A. No, certainly.
11 Q. Well, there is one that is smoking, and we'll come to that
13 So from this multitude of materials that you had, you cut it out,
14 added it, edited. There is no chronology on the tape. So I can conclude
15 that what you wrote happened on the 6th, indicated as having happened on
16 the 6th, perhaps was the shelling of the Old City which took place either
17 earlier or later?
18 A. No, you cannot. That only took place on the 6th, and that is the
19 6th of December.
20 Q. How can you say now that it is only the 6th, 6th when repeatedly
21 to questions put to you by Mr. Kaufman you said that when you were filming
22 the automobile, from your balcony, flying into the air, that didn't take
23 place on the 6th.
24 A. Exactly. I remembered that that took place in November, but the
25 shelling of the city is only on the 6th.
1 Q. You don't know about this gunboat, when this was taken?
2 A. It can be before or afterwards, but I'm telling you, they were
3 there for at least three months, and they were shooting at random, not in
4 a planned fashion.
5 Q. Tell me, would you please be so kind as to explain the logic of
6 the film to me. How did you organise this? Why does the car come first
7 and then the gunboat? I mean, if it's not chronological. Did you do it
8 in the order of importance or whatever?
9 A. Sort of. I started thinking, this car was in November and then
10 comes the 6th, the attack, the shelling; and then comes the 7th when I
11 went to town. This gunboat was around Dubrovnik a month before that and a
12 month or two after that. And not only this one but four or five of them.
13 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask Ms. McCreath to
14 show us 15 minutes and 40 seconds, for instance. And then I'm going to
15 ask for the tape to be stopped at a particular point.
16 [Videotape played]
17 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Could you stop now, please.
18 Q. Mr. Jusic, you entered town; isn't that right? Now we're already
19 on the 7th of December?
20 A. Exactly.
21 Q. Are we in Stradun now?
22 A. Exactly, Stradun, the beginning, on the eastern side.
23 Q. Do we see quite a few people in Stradun on that day?
24 A. Way too many for that particular day.
25 Q. Thank you. When was this filmed, at what time?
1 A. Perhaps 7.00 in the morning.
2 Q. All right.
3 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please move on to the
4 seventeenth minute, 30 seconds, 35 seconds.
5 [Videotape played]
6 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Stop. Could you play it very
7 slowly now. Just go on slowly forward if that's no problem. Stop now,
8 please. Stop. Thank you.
9 Q. Can you see this car, Mr. Jusic?
10 A. I can.
11 Q. Do you see the blue licence plate on this car, Mr. Jusic?
12 A. I do. It's a bit dim, but I can see that it's blue, yes.
13 Q. Whose licence plate is this, Mr. Jusic?
14 A. I cannot see well because it's very dim. It's out of focus.
15 Q. Could you please be so kind as to tell the Trial Chamber who had
16 blue licence plates in the Republic of Croatia, in the SFRY at the time
17 we're discussing. Whose vehicles had blue licence plates only?
18 A. As far as I can remember, I think it was the police.
19 Q. Just a bit further. Can you see this blue vehicle?
20 A. Yes, yes.
21 Q. Whose vehicles were blue, Mr. Jusic?
22 A. Well, my last car, the one before last, was blue, and now I have a
23 red car.
24 Q. Mr. Jusic, no doubt you're a very witty man.
25 A. Well, you're asking me.
1 Q. I'm asking you. This blue vehicle with blue licence plates, who
2 does it belong to?
3 A. Well, look, there were different licence plates in Dubrovnik at
4 the time. There were international licence plates. I can't tell you
5 whose it is. I can't see very well. It is true that it is blue, yes, but
6 I also see that there are white seats, and I never saw the police with
7 white seats in their cars.
8 Q. Mr. Jusic, a blue vehicle with blue M licence plates, is that a
9 police car? Yes or no. Just give me a brief answer.
10 A. I don't know.
11 Q. Oh, you don't know.
12 A. I don't see why it would N. What do you mean N?
13 Q. I mean M, meaning the police on blue licence plates. That's the
14 only such thing that existed in the Republic of Croatia and the SFRY, the
15 one and only.
16 A. Well, ours were called police with a P, Policija, not M, Milicija.
17 Q. All right, Mr. Jusic. In 1991, the police in Croatia was called
18 Milicija with an M, like everywhere else in the former Yugoslavia, but
19 let's not go into all that now.
20 Tell me, where was this filmed, in front of the municipality?
21 A. I got out of the municipality. I was filming until about 1 --
22 until about 9.00 and then I went to the municipality to recharge my
23 battery because they have a generator too. And now we'll see what the
24 time is because I happened to film that as well.
25 Q. Was this vehicle filmed in front of the municipality next to the
1 Rector's Palace opposite St. Blaise Church?
2 A. Yes, yes, that's for sure.
3 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please move a bit forward,
4 17:56 or, rather, 17:50. Could you please play the tape now.
5 [Videotape played]
6 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Stop. Stop. Just a bit further.
7 Thank you. Can we see the whole clip, please. Just a bit further. Yes,
8 thank you.
9 Q. Where are those people, Mr. Jusic?
10 A. Good question. Good question. I wanted to ask you that. Again
11 the siren went off around 10.00. So this is a state of alert, and people
12 have fled to shelters.
13 Q. Are you sure that you did not change the sequence here either?
14 A. No. Can I suggest that within the next half minute I know I'm
15 going to ask a passerby what day is it today, as if I knew you'd be asking
16 me this some day.
17 Q. I remember that. It is fifteen to twelve.
18 A. Twenty to twelve. Twenty minutes before midday.
19 Q. All right. Could you tell me, please --
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 JUDGE PARKER: If we could intrude, Mr. Petrovic.
22 Mr. Jusic, there appears to be a lengthy shadow across the street
23 thrown by a building. Can you -- would you agree that the sunrises at
24 about 7.00 in the morning at that time of the year in Dubrovnik?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I beg your pardon. What we see now
1 is twenty minutes to twelve, so you can see the shadow of the sun. This
2 is not 7.00 in the morning. This is twenty to twelve, this particular
4 JUDGE PARKER: And what time would you say the sunrises at that
5 time in Dubrovnik?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think around 6.30 or 7.00,
7 something like that.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Do you see anything unusual about the extent of
9 shadow that's cast, or is that what you would expect near midday?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This shadow that can be seen here is
11 the street, the street that is intersected by the sun. And then as the
12 sun goes further, it includes other streets. So that's why this looks
13 this way. But if you allow me, this street is otherwise as smooth as a
14 mirror, and I see how it is riddled with shrapnel bullets, hits.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Petrovic. We interrupted.
16 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Q. Mr. Jusic, how many buildings exactly burned on the 6th of
18 December, as you had put it? What is the actual number?
19 A. Let's start with the festival building. That's one. And then
20 this other building before the festival building. That is another palace,
21 so that's number two. And then the house where Ivo Grbic, the well-known
22 artist, lives, that's number 3. Then the house next door is number 4.
23 And then that palace is number 5. And then two palaces vis-a-vis the
24 Orthodox church. That's 7, right. Then near the Sorkocevic building,
25 that's 8. I filmed that. And I'm not including those holes. I'm talking
1 about houses that were burned to the ground.
2 Q. Mr. Jusic, on your footage, six can be seen. Out of them, two
3 buildings that you refer to can be seen only partially.
4 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Ms. McCreath, can we see minutes
5 26, please, 32 -- 26 minutes 20 seconds, approximately.
6 [Videotape played]
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the building --
8 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Please let me put the questions.
10 [Videotape played]
11 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Stop now, please, just now.
12 Q. This is Grbic's house, the house of the painter Grbic; is that
14 A. That's right.
15 Q. Is it correct that this is the shop of the Belgrade ready-made
16 clothing factory on the ground floor of his house? Is that right?
17 A. I can agree with that, yes. Grbic lived upstairs.
18 Q. Yes. Thank you.
19 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Could we move a bit further on,
20 minute number 28.
21 [Videotape played]
22 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Stop now, please.
23 Q. How come this sign, this lamp, was intact? What's it made of?
24 A. Mr. Petrovic, please don't mind my saying so, but this is a crazy
25 question. I mean, come on. How can you say that? Something just happens
1 to remain intact. I mean, it's just by accident. How did I manage to
2 survive? By chance.
3 Your Honour, please. Please be so kind as to -- don't allow him
4 to put this kind of questions to me. They are not fair. They are not
5 proper, after all.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Jusic, I can well understand that you feel very
7 deeply some of these things, but a question like that can be shortly and
8 simply answered, "By chance," and that's all you need to say.
9 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Could you please play a bit
11 [Videotape played]
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is what it looked like. This
13 is it.
14 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Stop now.
15 Q. Is a shop of the Titograd ready-made clothing factory housed in
16 this building?
17 A. I don't know. I see it says Titex Boutique. Well, obviously a
18 shell fell straight on the house, and obviously these two lamps that are
19 outside were protected by the walls. And it is really sensational that
20 they remained intact. Obviously the shell fell on the house, not next to
21 the house.
22 Now that I'm composed, I can explain that.
23 Q. My question to you was: Is this the -- the store that belonged to
24 the Titograd ready-made clothing factory?
25 A. I just see the words Boutique Titex. I don't know who it belongs
2 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have minute 29 now.
3 [Videotape played]
4 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Stop now, please. Stop.
5 Q. So this is another one of the houses that were burned.
6 A. It's a palace.
7 Q. It's a palace. Can you see in the lower left-hand corner this
9 A. I do.
10 Q. It is the Kluz logo, again a Belgrade manufacturer.
11 A. Can we see it a bit better? Can it be focused? Perhaps it's
12 Kluc. It's not that I'm trying to deny what you're saying, but it may be
13 Kluc, not necessarily Kluz.
14 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Ms. McCreath, can we focus this a
15 bit? Can we zoom in?
16 [Videotape played]
17 THE WITNESS: Stop. [Interpretation] What did you say that was
18 written here?
19 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. I said Kluz.
21 A. It is not a Z at the end. I couldn't decipher that. What about
22 this dot on the Z if it is a Z?
23 Q. There are ways of checking this.
24 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Could we see minute 30 now, please.
25 [Videotape played]
1 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] So these are three buildings.
2 Could you please stop the tape now.
3 Q. There's a fourth brigade that burned down. It's the one opposite
4 the Serbian Orthodox Church.
5 A. Exactly.
6 Q. Isn't that a bit strange that out of the six buildings that burned
7 down, four, or at least three, were Serb buildings?
8 A. Sir --
9 MR. KAUFMAN: Your Honours, I wonder if that question is not
10 requesting speculation from the witness. I would object on those grounds.
11 JUDGE PARKER: Do you have an answer to the question, Mr. Jusic?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do. I do, and I'd be glad to give
13 this answer.
14 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, these were buildings
16 from the former Yugoslavia. Secondly, they're on the ground floor, but
17 then upstairs there were Croats who were living there. It was Croat
18 citizens that were hit. And this says even more about the attackers.
19 They just wanted to devastate Dubrovnik indiscriminately, and they
20 succeeded at that point in time. They did not discriminate between faiths
21 or ethnic groups.
22 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Petrovic, we're just about right on time.
23 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, deeply aware of what
24 you said to me yesterday, I nevertheless have to say that I faced
25 considerable problems in terms of obtaining answers to the questions I
1 put, so I do apologise, and could I please have another 15 minutes after
2 this break?
3 JUDGE PARKER: We'll make it ten minutes, Mr. Petrovic.
4 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE PARKER: And this is the time when we need to break. We
6 will have the normal break now.
7 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.
8 --- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Petrovic.
10 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
11 Q. Mr. Jusic, how many hits to the pavement of the Stradun did you
13 A. I don't think I exactly filmed the pavement of the street, but I
14 did see that it was riddled, and there were some parts of it that were
15 devastated, slabs.
16 Q. You filmed two, one before the -- in front of the Festival Palace,
17 the other in Palmoticeva Street.
18 A. There were many more, in fact.
19 Q. How many hits did you film or how many hits were there around the
20 Orlando's column?
21 A. I concretely filmed two holes, a large hole, a smaller one, and
22 one was on the Church of the Saint -- of St. Blaise.
23 Q. I'm asking you about the pavement.
24 A. All right, the pavement. I filmed two holes in front of St.
25 Blaise's Church, near Orlando's pillar or column.
1 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Can I ask Mrs. McCreath for us to
2 go to the thirty-fifth minute.
3 Q. Just before we do that, can you tell me, you filmed also the
4 damage to the Franciscan cloister; right?
5 A. Right.
6 Q. If I'm not wrong, you also filmed the damage sustained in the
7 refectory of the cloister.
8 A. Right.
9 Q. I believe somebody was explaining to you which way the shell
10 landed and how it entered the room.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Can you remember what it exploded?
13 A. The person who is doing the explaining is the superior of the
14 monastery, the guardian. His name is Mato Polonio.
15 Q. Yes, all right. What did he tell you? Where did it explode?
16 A. He showed me with his hand where it had come in through the window
17 and it could have only come from Bosanka or Zarkovica, this projectile.
18 Q. My question is, did he describe to you where it had exploded
19 inside the room or --
20 A. He didn't say.
21 Q. And what do you think, in view of the damage?
22 A. I believe that it exploded up on the window.
23 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Can you now let us see the 35th
24 minute, 12th second. The 35th minute.
25 [Videotape played]
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is the superior --
2 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Please wait until I put the question to you.
4 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Can you go back a bit, please.
5 [Videotape played]
6 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Please stop here.
7 Q. Please explain how come that everything else -- everything
8 remained in its proper place in this room when the explosion took place so
9 near? You can see the pitcher with water, you can see the chair. How was
10 it possible?
11 A. I told you that it exploded up on the window, not inside. Had it
12 exploded inside, the damage would have been far greater. Fortunately, it
14 Q. How far is this window from this pitcher of water, for instance?
15 A. Some five metres up.
16 Q. Nothing happened to the pitcher from an explosion which was five
17 metres away?
18 A. Honey, it did not explode inside. It exploded five metres away on
19 the window and these are pieces of the window. So this window was above
20 the superior, where he was showing to me the place, not above the pitcher.
21 Q. Fair enough.
22 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise for going back a bit,
23 but could we go back a bit to the -- to 24 minutes and 30 seconds, please.
24 A bit more, please. Yes, that's right.
25 [Videotape played]
1 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Stop here, please.
2 Q. So this motorbiker who was driving down the Stradun out of spite,
3 as you put it, what does this car mean? What is that? Who is that, if
4 you know?
5 A. This was -- this was total anarchy or, rather, people were driving
6 around out of protest. I don't know what exactly it means.
7 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Can we go back a bit, please.
8 [Videotape played]
9 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] The end of the 24th minute, please.
10 Go back a bit. Towards the facade. Yes. Now -- stop now, please. And a
11 few frames back again, please.
12 [Videotape played]
13 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Stop now.
14 Q. Where does this bell tower face?
15 A. We wanted precisely --
16 Q. I'm interested in the -- in the cardinal points, the left side,
17 the insulated side.
18 A. The flag faces the east, and to the left is the west. Up there is
19 the north.
20 Q. All right. Now you've been telling us persistently for three days
21 that the shells had been coming from the direction of the east. Now,
22 where do you see on the east side of the cupola this damage that you say
23 came from the east?
24 A. Sir, I remember vividly. I'm sure it was a shell from the Bosanka
25 or Zarkovica. This is precisely the stretch towards Zarkovica, and you
1 can see this hole. That is exactly what I said.
2 Q. You said it was all from the east side.
3 A. Yes, it is from the east side. This is still the east side, isn't
5 Q. So you are certain that the east side of this building is damaged?
6 A. I drew on the map where Zarkovica is, but I can perhaps say that
7 it was north-east, but it was from Zarkovica that the projectile came.
8 Q. All right.
9 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Shall we now go, please, to 40.
10 Your Honour, I'm compelled to give up a large number of my
11 questions but that will be the subject of our written submissions when the
12 time comes.
13 So let us go to the 43rd minute, 33rd second. Run the tape,
15 [Videotape played]
16 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] A bit forward, please. Yes, this
17 is it. Thank you. Stop please. A couple of seconds back, please.
18 Q. Do you see this gunboat, Mr. Jusic?
19 A. Yes, I see that it had just fired its projectile, and this is the
20 smoke which shows that.
21 Q. This is the very end of your tape.
22 A. I don't know whether that's the end of my tape, but this is the
23 gunboat which had just opened fire.
24 Q. This is the 43rd minute of the 44 that your tape has.
25 A. Yes. And what do you need from me?
1 Q. I need you to tell me when you filmed this.
2 A. This gunboat.
3 Q. Yes.
4 A. I don't know the exact hour but the fact is it is opening fire at
5 Dubrovnik. This is the most important thing for me, that it is opening
6 fire at Dubrovnik, and at me, of course.
7 Q. It is important that it is opening fire at you and at Dubrovnik
8 and the date is not important, in your opinion?
9 A. It is not at all important. Maybe it is now important for you at
10 this point, but at that time, it was -- the only thing for me was to save
11 my life.
12 Q. And obviously the dates were not important.
13 A. Of course. I did not prepare myself in terms of remembering the
14 dates. What I concentrated on were the events and my concentration wasn't
15 perhaps all that good.
16 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] And now the last frame, the 44th
17 minute, please. Let the tape run, please, until the end.
18 [Videotape played]
19 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Please stop now. Can we go
20 backwards a bit. Stop at this point.
21 Q. Where was this filmed, Mr. Jusic?
22 A. I don't know. This is my balcony. This is my table, and this is
23 my pear brandy.
24 Q. Was this filmed after this hit in your apartment and this mess
25 that it caused?
1 A. I'm not sure.
2 Q. When was this filmed?
3 A. I told you that I used a portion of the tape to film my birthday
4 party, and perhaps this remained from that occasion. This was not during
5 the war. This was not during the shooting. I lived alone, and as I do
6 today, and I can see here there are a couple of glasses, perhaps two
8 Q. Mr. Jusic, the frame --
9 A. The frame --
10 Q. Mr. Jusic, the frame showing the gunboat is uninterrupted until
11 this particular frame.
12 A. Yes, you are right, but I told you a minute ago that these
13 gunboats were in the area of Dubrovnik about three or four months and kept
14 opening fire. So it was perhaps one sunny day that I put the table and
15 the glasses outside on my balcony.
16 Q. So it could have been after a couple of months?
17 A. It could have been after a couple of months.
18 Q. And my last question: How come this is shown on this tape if, as
19 you told us yesterday, Mr. Jusic, you edited everything that we are
20 viewing here a couple of days after the events, in the cellar of the
21 Libertas Hotel?
22 A. This is not what I told you. What I said was that after these
23 - how shall I put it? - the interrogators, the representatives of this
24 distinguished Tribunal came to me, I told them that I was so patriotic as
25 to have a film and to have this footage. They were surprised, and they
1 told me that -- that I should give them this movie, and I had it edited in
2 the TV studio.
3 Q. So you edited the film, as you say now, after the visit of the
4 investigators of the International Tribunal.
5 A. That is correct. And when I went to the television, they took
6 from it the frames showing these direct hits.
7 Q. And you gave the edited material to the investigators of the
8 International Tribunal which you edited according to your selection of
9 material criterion for the material to be seen here today the way we have
10 viewed it?
11 A. I shall define it in a different way. What I gave them was the
12 things which were the most important for me, because I'm not a film
13 director, as I say.
14 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. That
15 completes my cross-examination.
16 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. Mr. Petrovic, you in fact had over your full
17 quarter of an hour. Just understand, we're not unsympathetic to your
19 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. The
20 Defence deeply appreciates your attitude towards us. Thank you.
21 JUDGE PARKER: May we thank Ms. McCreath for what she was able to
22 do then.
23 Now Mr. Kaufman.
24 MR. KAUFMAN: Yes, Your Honour.
25 Re-examined by Mr. Kaufman:
1 Q. Mr. Jusic, just a few more questions by way of re-examination and
2 then you'll be free to go.
3 Now, I'd like to clarify the last matter we raised first of all,
4 about the editing, because I'm still not sure it's clear in all our minds
5 the process of editing that took place with respect to the exhibit that is
6 now currently before the Trial Chamber. That is, the video we've been
7 watching and you've been questioned so much about.
8 You talk about a final process of editing that took place after
9 you received a visit from the Office of the Prosecutor and you had your
10 statement taken from you. Can you explain to us exactly where that
11 editing took place, and when, if you remember.
12 A. Mr. Kaufman, a very serious term is being used here, one that I do
13 not deserve. I'm a composer. I'm not a film director. I did not edit
14 this film, because film editing is a highly responsible job, and this is
15 done by expert individuals.
16 I edited this. There is a video rental store in Dubrovnik that
17 rents videos, that copies videos. It is near the Libertas Hotel. I don't
18 know the exact address. There was a young man there, and he played the
19 tape for me, and I said, "Cut this, keep this," and so on. So I was not
20 there at an editing table, and please try to avoid this particular term
21 "editing," because I'm not a professional. I just wanted to show the
22 suffering of my town. I wanted to show how I could have fallen casualty,
23 my children, my friends.
24 Q. Mr. Jusic, of course I appreciate that, but when I use the word in
25 English, it does not have any particular professional meaning to it.
1 Please understand that.
2 When's your birthday? Perhaps that might assist us. You say that
3 the bottle of brandy was part of your birthday celebrations. When was
4 your birthday that year? On what date? Every year. Sounds like one of
5 those things you always hear about lawyers. When does your birthday fall?
6 A. I'm an Aquarius -- I was born on the 26th of January. I'm not
7 going to tell you what year. It's the 26th of January.
8 Q. So those glasses and bottle of brandy would belong to the 26th of
9 January, would they?
10 A. [In English] Brandy, yes.
11 Q. Now, you also talked about the presence of gunboats around
12 Dubrovnik for a number of months. And I believe it's page 11, line 21 of
13 today's transcript, a wrong date might have been conveyed. The date that
14 was registered was 2002. Now, can you tell us whether those gunboats were
15 around Dubrovnik?
16 A. There were gunboats around Dubrovnik already in the summer of
17 1991. It must have been from August onwards, but they started shooting
18 only later. They positioned themselves there then, and later on they were
19 on the move and they started shooting. This same clip and this gunboat is
20 something that I also took as a way in which they wished me a happy
21 birthday, 26th of January.
22 Q. So would it be 2002 or 1992? Just to clarify the mistake that
23 fell in the transcript, page 11, line 21.
24 A. It could only have been 1992.
25 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, let us move back, and we will go in
1 chronological order by way of clarifying some of the matters that were
2 raised in cross-examination.
3 For the benefit of the Trial Chamber and Mr. Petrovic, this matter
4 was raised at page 87, line 2 of yesterday's transcript.
5 You talked about in response to a question from Mr. Petrovic,
6 Dr. Lang sending out a SOS, and you said that it was at 6.00. Was that
7 6.00 in the morning or 6.00 in the evening?
8 A. In the evening.
9 Q. Thank you, sir. Throughout the film we see you proceeding down
10 the Stradun. As you're proceeding down the Stradun, where is your back
11 facing when you're filming?
12 A. The east.
13 Q. So when you filmed the Maljutka with the threads hanging out
14 lodged in the wall, walking down the Stradun, your back would have still
15 been facing east?
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. Thank you. This morning in response to a question of Mr. Petrovic
18 concerning the music that was coming from Zarkovica when you were
19 conducting Mozart, you said that you heard lyrics and that those lyrics
20 were vulgar. Mr. Petrovic asked you to tell us what those vulgar lyrics
21 were, and I don't believe we got a response, mainly perhaps out of -- for
22 the reason that you felt embarrassed to say those things to the Court.
23 Before I ask you exactly what was said, what was the nature of
24 those vulgarities?
25 A. Mr. Kaufman, I have to correct you. Mr. Petrovic said that there
1 was no need for me to provide the text. If you insist, I can tell you,
2 but it's very -- I mean, it is not at the level of this institution. I
3 can write it out for you and hand it over to you and to Mr. Petrovic. I
4 cannot utter those words.
5 Q. Can you maybe assist us as to the nature of them, the vulgarities,
6 without giving us the exact words that were said by the -- that were being
7 broadcast over these big loudspeakers without embarrassing yourself and
8 going into details?
9 A. Well, if you will understand what I'm saying, I remembered one
10 verse: "Who does not like a Montenegrin ... his father," if you can catch
11 my drift.
12 Q. Well, I don't wish to press you on that point. Maybe we better
13 move on in any event.
14 Would you like to write it out, Mr. Jusic, so we can give it to
15 the Trial Chamber?
16 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Kaufman, what is the point of that, really?
17 MR. KAUFMAN: Your Honour, what I'm seeking to find out is whether
18 it was an insult directed at Dubrovnik or just a general insult.
19 JUDGE PARKER: On the example given --
20 MR. KAUFMAN: It's not clear to me, Your Honour. Maybe I'm just
22 JUDGE PARKER: I think you're searching too hard on a very, very
23 minor issue.
24 MR. KAUFMAN: I shall continue then, Your Honour.
25 Q. Now, you talked about seeing a cannon on Montenegrin TV. Can I
1 show you a photograph, please. If you'd like to look at the monitor in
2 front of you.
3 Sir, what television station is that?
4 A. This is TV Montenegro. This is the hill of Zarkovica, and
5 Dubrovnik is down there. Srdj is on the right-hand side. You can see the
6 fort and then you can see the Elafiti islands.
7 Q. Now, do you see a cannon there?
8 A. It's an unusual cannon, and if the picture could be moved a bit
9 further up, we would see all of Stradun and all the bell towers that we
10 were discussing this morning. They would all have been hit. So they were
11 probably targeted from this cannon. Also, the Franciscan bell tower and
12 also the one that tells the time.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 MR. KAUFMAN: Your Honours, I wish to tender that photograph.
15 Because the matter only arose in cross-examination, we're currently having
16 copies of that photograph produced for the benefit of the Trial Chamber.
17 I believe Mr. Petrovic has an objection. So maybe I'll sit down
18 whilst Mr. Petrovic makes his objection.
19 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Petrovic.
20 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. First of all, it
21 says here TV Montenegro. That is what it says here, but obviously this TV
22 programme was not made by TV Montenegro because you see in the background
23 there is something written in Cyrillic, whereas TV Crna Gora, TV
24 Montenegro, is written in the Latin alphabet. So that is one thing.
25 And the second thing is the following: We would have to know when
1 this footage was made or, rather, when this picture was made. Was it in
2 1992 or 1995? We cannot tell by this photograph. Therefore, this
3 photograph does not meet the criteria of being admitted into evidence.
4 Thank you, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Kaufman, do you have anything in respect of its
6 relevance to the 6th of December to submit?
7 MR. KAUFMAN: Your Honour, it's by way of re-examination in
8 response to the matter that was raised about seeing a cannon on
9 television. I wished Mr. Jusic to tell us if this was the sort of thing
10 he'd seen on television. It was an answer given in cross-examination as a
11 result of a question asked by Mr. Petrovic. That's the reason why I'm
12 asking if he recognises the matter.
13 As far as the dating of the photograph is concerned, I'm informed
14 that this is -- forms part of the video that was submitted by Mr. Grbic,
15 which is now a full exhibit before the Trial Chamber. So in essence the
16 matter is already before the Trial Chamber as a tendered exhibit and
17 accepted exhibit.
18 JUDGE PARKER: I see movement to my right. Mr. Petrovic.
19 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Yes, very briefly. If
20 it is so, there is no reason for me not to believe my learned friend, but
21 then there is another question that arises that will lead me to ask you
22 for permission to put some questions. This is an 82-millimetre cannon.
23 Is it possible that Mr. Jusic, at a distance of -- a distance of one or
24 two kilometres can see what Mr. Kaufman insinuated just now? So by your
25 leave, I would then put a question in relation to that.
1 MR. KAUFMAN: Your Honour, I --
2 JUDGE PARKER: I think Mr. Kaufman has been misunderstood by you,
3 Mr. Petrovic. He was saying merely that this was seen by the witness on
4 television, not seen from the city.
5 MR. KAUFMAN: If that is so, Your Honour, then there is no problem
6 whatsoever. I do apologise for not having been focused, probably, at that
8 JUDGE PARKER: This photograph will be received in evidence on the
9 basis indicated by Mr. Kaufman in his submission a moment ago.
10 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P83.
11 JUDGE PARKER: Copies will be provided in due course, of course,
12 Mr. Kaufman.
13 MR. KAUFMAN: Of course, Your Honours.
14 Q. Sir, does the name Glavac Tasovac mean anything to you?
15 A. Tasovac?
16 Q. If I may spell it, it's T-A-S-O-V-A-C.
17 A. Tasovac. A well-known photographer. An elderly gentleman. His
18 last name is Tasovac but I don't know anything more than that.
19 Q. You were asked some questions about Mr. Pavo Urban's death.
20 Perhaps you might have known about him in reference to Mr. Pavo Urban. If
21 you do, say yes, if you don't, say no.
22 A. I don't know. I don't know.
23 Q. Okay. Sir, you were asked about the fact that you had filmed for
24 approximately, or were filming for approximately two hours on the 6th of
25 December yet only a number of minutes appear on the footage that we have
1 in front of us. Do you remember that? And you said and you gave a
2 metaphor or an analogy and said it was -- what you had filmed was like
3 ripping the nail off the finger of a beautiful woman. Sir, that ripping
4 off the nail, was that the sum total of what you saw on that day, or was
5 there more that wasn't captured in the two hours that you were filming?
6 A. A lot more happened that I did not capture in those two hours.
7 Q. Sir, when you were referring to the nail, we weren't really
8 referring to the legs and arms, we were referring to the burnt down
9 palaces; is that correct?
10 A. Well, you see, I used this metaphor, and I believe that a house or
11 a nail is just as valuable as a life, almost.
12 Q. Mr. Jusic, I'd like to clarify a question that was put to you by
13 Their Honours with respect to the shadows that fell on the Stradun. Now,
14 I'm not sure whether we had a complete answer to that question, so maybe I
15 misunderstood you as well, but I'd like to show you that section of the
16 film again and have you comment on it and tell us whether that shadow that
17 you see in the video, it starts at approximately 18 minutes, is the type
18 of shadow that you would expect for that time of year, namely the 7th of
19 December in the early hours of the morning -- sorry, at the time His
20 Honour put to you, which was at twenty to twelve. If we see the whole
21 section, we will see the point where you also film the clock. We can see
22 the shadows before the clock and after the clock. So these are the
23 shadows before the clock.
24 MR. KAUFMAN: I do apologise. It appears we're not broadcasting
25 this. If we could go back, perhaps.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here it is.
2 [Videotape played]
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You can stop at this point. It can
4 be seen here that the sun is in the centre, the zenith, and then this here
5 shows that the sun goes through another one of the streets. And then if
6 we go further on, this light will come from the other streets. This is
7 midday, and since it is wintertime, the sun is a bit to the south.
8 MR. KAUFMAN:
9 Q. Well, if you just wait there, Mr. Jusic, you will see what happens
10 in a minute, because we get an opportunity to see the shadows once again
11 after you film the time.
12 MR. KAUFMAN: Please, Ms. McCreath, if you could continue the
14 [Videotape played]
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here it is. This is Nova Street.
16 This is exactly what I said.
17 MR. KAUFMAN: If you could stop there, please, Ms. McCreath.
18 Q. Now, what is the time that is registered there on the clock?
19 A. 11.40.
20 Q. And the clock was working on that day, was it?
21 A. This is the mechanism. I don't think that the bell tower up there
22 was working, but it is separate. This is a mechanism with Roman numerals.
23 MR. KAUFMAN: Maybe we could just continue slightly a bit further
24 so we can see some shadows afterwards.
25 [Videotape played]
1 MR. KAUFMAN: Yes. Thank you. I wonder if that clarifies the
2 issue for the Court.
3 JUDGE PARKER: It does, but it raises a question whether the light
4 and shadows shown much earlier in the film when first entering the city
5 are then consistent with what was said to be the time then. There seems
6 some inconsistency between the two, the nature of the light and shadows on
7 those two separate occasions.
8 MR. KAUFMAN: Would Your Honours care for me to explore the issue
9 with the witness? I'm quite able to do that.
10 JUDGE PARKER: Entirely up to you, Mr. Kaufman.
11 MR. KAUFMAN:
12 Q. I would like to ask you, Mr. Jusic, at what time you entered the
13 town on that day, the Old Town, on the 7th of December.
14 A. Around 7.00, perhaps a bit before that.
15 Q. And you were filming for how long before your battery ran out?
16 A. About an hour and a half or two, approximately. But not
17 continuously. You should be clear on that point. I carried my camera
18 around. I filmed. I would turn it on, I would turn it off, but there are
19 not two hours at a stretch.
20 Q. So we're talking about an entry around about 7.00, and we have you
21 here filming at 12.00, twenty to twelve or thereabouts. Can you estimate
22 how many times you might have turned the camera on and off during that
23 period and for what period you might have turned the camera off? If it's
24 difficult for you to remember, say, "It's difficult for me to remember."
25 A. Could you please rewind the tape so that we can see when I'm
1 entering town and when I'm approaching the main street, Stradun?
2 Q. Yes, that's possible. It can be found at approximately 13:30
4 [Videotape played]
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A bit forward, please.
6 MR. KAUFMAN: Okay. Now we actually do see a bit of sunlight here,
7 so perhaps we could stop here, Ms. McCreath. Thank you.
8 Q. You see the sunlight falling there. Are you aware, through your
9 familiarity with the Old Town, at what time of day the sun falls on that
10 part -- the sun's rays fall on that part?
11 A. Between 6.30 and 7.00. You can see that the sun is coming from
12 the east, and the upper parts are lit. So you can basically see this
14 Q. And that's the pattern of sun rays falling that you would expect
15 to see at that time of day, is it, sir, at that month of the year?
16 A. Yes. Yes.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Kaufman, the point of concern was the scene
19 shown when first entering the Stradun when there was comment on the large
20 number of people that were present.
21 MR. KAUFMAN: I believe Mr. Petrovic could remind me as to the
22 exact time. I believe it's somewhere around the 14 minute mark.
23 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please, Your Honour.
24 Fifteen minutes, 30 seconds, approximately.
25 [Videotape played]
1 MR. KAUFMAN: Okay. If you could stop, please.
2 Q. Now, please, sir, take a look at the tower at the bottom, first of
3 all, before we talk about shadows. Do you see the Red Cross flag on the
4 tower there?
5 A. I can't see it any longer.
6 Q. Now, what -- you also talked about an air raid siren going on. Do
7 you remember at what time the air raid siren went on that day? The 7th of
8 December. This is the day you said there was an air raid siren.
9 A. The siren was on the previous day, around 6.00. And then it was
10 on until about 9.00 in the morning. That's why these people are here.
11 They were people trying to extinguish the fires. Then around 9.00 again
12 the siren went off, and then again we can see that these people can no
13 longer be seen in the remaining footage.
14 Q. So would this be -- before we talk about the shadows, would this
15 be before the siren went off again or after the siren went off again?
16 Just so it's clear for the transcript.
17 A. This is just before the siren went off. But I would like to draw
18 your attention to another thing. You can see the sun from the east, the
19 first sun rays in the morning, on the bell tower.
20 Q. Well, that's what I was going to come to now, sir, because we're
21 talking from your last answer, without, of course, leading you on the
22 matter, I understand this is -- would have to be before 9.00. So looking
23 at the sun rays as they fall on the buildings going down the Stradun,
24 would that be the type of sun ray pattern you would expect to find, being
25 a resident of Dubrovnik and familiar with the Old Town, in the month of
1 December before 9.00 in the morning?
2 A. These are the morning hours in Dubrovnik, the time that we're
3 talking about.
4 Q. Now, sir, are you aware of stopping your camera at a time after
5 9.00 in the morning and then turning it on later? Does that jog your
7 A. Could you play this a bit more.
8 [Videotape played]
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. At this point I stopped
10 filming, the next second or so.
11 This was the -- this is when I took the battery here to the right,
12 to our city hall, to recharge it. And this is already midday when I set
14 MR. KAUFMAN:
15 Q. So we have a gap, if this is already midday, as you say in your
16 last answer, from -- of approximately three hours. Am I correct? If the
17 first image was --
18 A. Yes, correct. From 9.00 to twenty to twelve. Approximately from
20 Q. Now, sir, is it yourself that this is the same day? Just so it's
21 clear for the Court and for all concerned, and for Mr. Petrovic
23 A. Absolutely, without any dilemma whatsoever.
24 Q. Sir, do you have an explanation? If you know, just say, "I know";
25 if you don't, just say, "I don't know," why the Red Cross flag was --
1 seems to be shown on the same building where it isn't shown early in the
3 A. It was probably hit by something.
4 Q. Well, we'll leave it at that. Now --
5 JUDGE PARKER: Before you move on, Mr. Kaufman, while the --
6 Mr. Jusic's mind is on these matters, the earlier filming, as you first
7 came into Stradun, you've indicated just then it was before, perhaps,
8 9.00. I think earlier you said you went into the city to film at around
9 7.00 in the morning. Are you able to say what time it was?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Maybe I didn't quite articulate it
11 properly. I shall repeat. I set out going into the city before 7.00 and
12 then started filming around 9.00, and then I went to recharge the battery.
13 JUDGE PARKER: So the first filming was not at 7.00 but around
14 9.00. Is that what you're now saying?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no. The first filming was
16 around 7.00. This is when the sun rises in Dubrovnik. The sun rises
17 between 6.30 and 7.00. So actually it was at 7.00 or before 7.00.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
19 MR. KAUFMAN:
20 Q. Last question, and this is on a totally different matter entirely.
21 You were shown the refectory of the Franciscan Monastery. You were asked
22 how you could explain that the pitcher of water was intact. Do you know
23 when the pitcher of water was placed there?
24 A. No, I don't.
25 Q. Mr. Jusic, I thank you very much for your coming.
1 MR. KAUFMAN: I wonder if the Trial Chamber has any further
2 questions of this witness that I haven't covered.
3 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Kaufman.
4 Mr. Jusic, I'm pleased to be able to tell you your time here is at
5 an end. May we thank you for your coming and the time you've spent here
6 and your assistance, and you are now free to return to Dubrovnik.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With your permission, Your Honour,
8 just a couple of words. May I?
9 JUDGE PARKER: Please.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm deeply honoured to have been
11 acquainted with this august company. I am deeply privileged to have come
12 here to present the truth. I'm grateful to the colleagues who conducted
13 this discussion with dignity, and I have to say to Mr. Strugar that none
14 of this should have happened. We could have lived in peace as good
15 neighbours, and it is indeed a pity that what happened did happen.
16 I thank you, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Jusic.
18 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
19 [The witness withdrew]
20 JUDGE PARKER: Now do I turn to -- Ms. Somers. There are three
21 wise heads there. I didn't know to which to turn.
22 MS. SOMERS: Thank you, Your Honour. We are prepared to present
23 the next witness, Mr. Vlasica, if the Chamber would permit us to go
24 directly in. As -- with respect to the submissions on the documentation
25 that came up in exhibit last week, I would indicate to the Chamber that in
1 order to clarify some of the points that were brought to my attention of
2 being of concern, we are endeavouring to contact the institute to see if
3 it could be clarified further from persons from the institute. There will
4 be additional evidence led that will cover damage unless -- if the Chamber
5 is minded to permit the evidence to come in before any further legal
6 submissions need to be heard, I only suggest that perhaps it might be
7 helpful. It is entirely within, obviously, the Chamber's discretion, but
8 we will move with more evidence.
9 JUDGE PARKER: I think it would be more practical and perhaps in
10 the end speedier if we deferred then the question of the admissibility of
11 that document until we see what is the totality of the evidence. I think
12 that would suit your position, wouldn't it, Mr. Petrovic?
13 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that is neutral
14 vis-a-vis our position. However, there is another circumstance which has
15 to be taken into consideration. If some new material is going to appear,
16 and of course in all these matters we are talking about hundreds of pages,
17 Your Honour, I am afraid that we shall perhaps not be able of efficiently
18 and quickly operating with hundreds or thousands of pages which will be
19 produced in the middle of this trial in an exercise which is by its very
20 nature formidable. So I just wish to point out the skepticism and
21 apprehension on the part of the Defence to the effect that we'll be able
22 to competently render our opinions and judgements in relation to this new
23 material. Thank you, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Well, thank you for that, Mr. Petrovic. I can say
25 these things: From what I understand, what is foreshadowed is the calling
1 of one or more of the people actually involved in the preparation of the
2 report as to damage. You've already dealt with two witnesses of that
3 nature. If it should be that the Prosecution does suggest more evidence
4 of that type, it will be possible then to assess whether the task of
5 absorbing it would be within your capacity without some adjournment or
6 whether some adjournment will be necessary.
7 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
8 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, thank you very much. I just want to
9 make it clear that if one of these individuals is available, and I'm
10 hopeful, that there should exist statements from one or both of those
11 persons, and the time frame, I believe, would be fairly quick.
12 And further, it's not because we feel there is any change in
13 admissibility, per se, but we would like at least to have the benefit.
14 Our position, of course, is that it is admissible, but, rather, we want to
15 make sure the Chamber has as good a record as possible, and we appreciate
16 the deferral. Thank you.
17 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, the issue then of the legal admissibility will
18 be deferred, and you now offer us a new witness.
19 MS. SOMERS: We'll try very hard.
20 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, by your leave, a
21 clarification which I believe is appropriate. Of course, without any
22 pretensions on the part of the Defence to judge what the Prosecution
23 wishes to present before this Trial Chamber and in what way, Your Honour,
24 at this point the legal situation is such that the admission of this
25 Exhibit P51 was requested through the witness Colin Kaiser. I would
1 therefore be grateful if Madam Somers would withdraw that motion and then
2 proceed in whatever way she feels is expedient. So we have this request
3 by Mr. Kaiser. So this should be an exhibit in connection with the
4 testimony given here by Mr. Kaiser. Thank you.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Well, thank you for that, Mr. Petrovic, but I
6 really don't think it's necessary to pin the exhibit down at the moment to
7 a particular witness. We already have more than one witness speaking to
8 its content, and it is possible now that we will have one or more further
9 witnesses. I think we'll wait until we see what the body of evidence
10 about the document is, and then we will hear both Prosecution and Defence
11 as to whether it should properly be admitted.
12 MS. SOMERS: Thank you.
13 JUDGE PARKER: I continue to look at the three wise heads
14 wondering which it is that I'm to here next.
15 Mr. Weiner.
16 MR. KAUFMAN: Your Honours, whilst the witness is being brought in
17 perhaps --
18 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Kaufman.
19 MR. KAUFMAN: -- I'd like to tender the exhibit that was presented
20 in re-examination, P83. That's just for purposes of the record.
21 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much.
22 [The witness entered court]
23 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Would you be kind enough to take the affirmation
1 from the card that is to be handed to you now.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
3 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
4 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. If you'd be seated.
5 WITNESS: IVO VLASICA
6 [Witness answered through interpreter]
7 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Weiner.
8 MR. WEINER: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Examined by Mr. Weiner:
10 Q. Good morning, sir.
11 A. Good morning.
12 Q. Would you state your name, please.
13 A. Ivo Vlasica.
14 Q. Can you tell us, how old are you?
15 A. I'm 46 years old.
16 Q. Where do you live?
17 A. In Dubrovnik.
18 Q. Within the Old Town?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Where?
21 A. At Mokosica, which is a suburb of Dubrovnik. The address is
22 Izmedju Dolaca number 18.
23 Q. Are you married, sir?
24 A. Yes, I am.
25 Q. Do you have any children?
1 A. I have two children.
2 Q. How were you employed, or what do you do for work?
3 A. I'm a shopkeeper. I own a store, a shop.
4 Q. And where is this store?
5 A. It is at Mlini.
6 Q. And is that within the Dubrovnik municipality?
7 A. That is the Zupa Dubrovacka. This is another municipality.
8 Q. Are you also a pensioner, sir?
9 A. No, I'm not.
10 Q. Do you receive any pension from the Croatian government as a
11 result of injuries you suffered?
12 A. No, I don't.
13 Q. Now, sir, did you ever serve in the Yugoslav People's Army?
14 A. Yes, I did.
15 Q. When did you serve full time?
16 A. From 1978 to 1979.
17 Q. And what type of unit were you in?
18 A. Sabotage Reconnaissance Unit.
19 Q. And did you have any special training in that unit?
20 A. Yes, I did.
21 Q. And how long of a training course did you have to take?
22 A. Seven months.
23 Q. Now, what was your rank when you left the full-time military in
25 A. A squad leader.
1 Q. And after you left, did you become a reservist?
2 A. Yes, I did.
3 Q. And what year were you in the reserves?
4 A. From 1980 to 1989.
5 Q. Now, when you completed your military service in 1989, what if any
6 rank did you hold?
7 A. I was a reserve Second Lieutenant.
8 Q. Have you ever been a member of any political party?
9 A. Yes, of the League of Communists.
10 Q. How long were you a member of the League of Communists?
11 A. Ten years.
12 Q. And when did you leave?
13 A. In 1990.
14 Q. Did you ever join any other political party after being a member
15 of the communists?
16 A. No. No.
17 Q. Now, sir, after you completed your military service, did you
18 attend any additional schooling?
19 A. Yes. I attended a school in order to obtain additional training
20 for my work.
21 Q. Thank you. Now, after you completed your school, what did you do
22 for work?
23 A. I was the foreman. I -- I ran a store.
24 Q. And what was the name of this store?
25 A. It was the work organisation called Dubrovkinja.
1 Q. Where was it located, your store?
2 A. It was in the Old Town.
3 Q. On what street?
4 A. Ulica Od Puca, the Od Puca Street.
5 Q. Now, you said it was part of a work organisation. What do you
6 mean by that? When you say "Dubrovkinja," do you mean it's part of a
7 chain or a franchise; what do you mean?
8 A. Well, it was one of a chain of stores, in fact.
9 Q. And what type of stores? What did you sell?
10 A. Foodstuffs, bread, milk.
11 Q. Now, I want to take you -- or let's move to October 1, 1991. Can
12 you tell us where you were at about 6.00 in the morning.
13 A. At 6.00 in the morning, I was going to work, and I was near the
14 fire brigade above the Old Town. I was in my car, going to work.
15 Q. And did something happen? Did you observe something at that
17 A. I could see to my left that shelling had started someplace from
18 the Srdj slope.
19 Q. What did you do?
20 A. I went to the parking lot at Buza, and I left my car there, and I
21 rushed into town.
22 Q. Did the shelling continue?
23 A. The shelling continued, as far as I was able to hear, because I
24 was already at Uzine by that time.
25 Q. And what is Uzine?
1 A. The walls are around Dubrovnik, so the fortress.
2 Q. Now, did you go to -- let's take it a step back. Did you go to
3 your store first?
4 A. Yes, I did.
5 Q. How long did you stay -- how long did you stay at your store?
6 A. For eight hours.
7 Q. And did you go to a shelter that date?
8 A. Yes, I did.
9 Q. And where was the shelter, inside or outside of the Old Town?
10 A. Inside the Old Town.
11 Q. Which shelter did you go to?
12 A. I went to the shelter at the aquarium in the St. John Fort.
13 Q. Thank you. Now, sir, let's discuss the situation in Dubrovnik,
14 especially the Old Town, in October, November, early December 1991. What
15 was the status of the power or electricity?
16 A. It was bad.
17 Q. What do you mean by "it was bad"? Was it functional? Was it --
18 A. No, it wasn't.
19 Q. Why? What happened?
20 A. As there had been shelling by the JNA at Komolac, the electricity
21 went down in the Old City automatically.
22 Q. Did the lack of power affect the water supply?
23 A. Yes, it did.
24 Q. And could you explain that, please.
25 A. As the electricity is the only thing which propelled the
1 generators, the turbines in Komolac, this automatically means that the
2 water supply was cut off.
3 Q. Were you aware of any blockade around the city of Dubrovnik at
4 that time?
5 A. Yes, I was.
6 Q. Who was blockading the city?
7 A. The Yugoslav People's Army was with its ships from the sea.
8 Q. What about on the land?
9 A. On the land, their forces were advancing towards Dubrovnik.
10 Q. Now, the blockade, did that affect the ability to import food into
11 the Old Town of Dubrovnik?
12 A. Yes, it did. Yes.
13 Q. Now, were there refugees in the Dubrovnik area?
14 A. Many. Many. Plenty of them.
15 Q. Where were they coming from?
16 A. From Konavle, from Zupa, from Osojnik, from all the surrounding
17 places around the town of Dubrovnik.
18 Q. With the many refugees and the blockade -- with the many refugees
19 and the blockade, was there sufficient food in Dubrovnik?
20 A. No, there wasn't.
21 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, do we need a break at this time or ...
22 JUDGE PARKER: I think we can carry on, Mr. Weiner.
23 MR. WEINER: Thank you.
24 Q. Sir, in your last -- in your last answer, you indicated there
25 wasn't sufficient food in the Old Town. Were all the grocery stores in
1 the Old Town still operational?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Was your store open for business?
4 A. Yes, it was.
5 Q. And were there any private stores, smaller private stores open for
7 A. There was one in the Old Town.
8 Q. What happened to the stores?
9 A. The others were closed because the people were afraid that they
10 would get killed when they came to work.
11 Q. Did they have product to sell?
12 A. There were goods inside the stores, and we transferred them from
13 store to store.
14 Q. How did your store, Dubrovkinja, remain open?
15 A. Because I, as a young man, had my car, and I volunteered, in fact,
16 to work there. I was able to come quite quickly to town from Lapad, and
17 perhaps I was not as afraid as the other people were.
18 Q. And did they have food to sell?
19 A. In the shops you mean?
20 Q. Yes, in your shop.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Was there sufficient bread in the Old Town?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And how -- why was it that there was sufficient bread in the Old
25 Town during this period?
1 A. Because the Orlando bakery worked during the night, and then
2 during the night we would get the bread that they had baked. It was
3 transported to the Old Town by trucks while it was still dark so that the
4 JNA would not discover the trucks and not shoot at them.
5 Q. Now, sir, did you become a member of the Civil Defence?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. In what month?
8 A. October.
9 Q. And what is the Civil Defence?
10 A. The Civil Defence is a way of helping civilians in terms of food,
11 medicine, accommodation, shelter, et cetera.
12 Q. Was it associated in any manner with the military?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Did Civil Defence members wear uniforms?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Carry guns?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Was your store associated with the Civil Defence?
19 A. I was within Dubrovkinja, and that was the store that was supposed
20 to be involved in supplying the town with proper supplies.
21 Q. What hours were you opened for business to supply the town?
22 A. From 6.00 a.m. until 8.00.
23 Q. And when you say "8.00," do you mean 8.00 in the morning or 8.00
24 at night?
25 A. 8.00 in the morning. If it were in the evening, I would have said
1 2000 hours.
2 Q. Okay. Why was the store only open for two hours?
3 A. In terms of safety measures, we were supposed to distribute the
4 food we had as soon as possible so that we could go back to the shelters,
5 because we never knew whether there would be shelling and when it would be
6 take place. At first we were sure that there would be no shelling of the
7 Old Town, but what happened, happened.
8 Q. All right. Let's continue in October. Were any efforts made to
9 protect any of the culturally important buildings in the Old Town?
10 A. Yes. Yes. Civilians, people from work organisations who were
11 within the big construction company and so on, we took construction
12 material, wooden boards, and we protected cultural monuments, because we
13 had received information that there might be an attack on the Old Town
15 Q. And could you give us an example of some of the buildings or
16 objects that were protected?
17 A. Viewed from St. Blaise, Orlando's pillar, the Gundulic monument,
18 then the palaces, then the facades of all churches, because facades are
19 very important, and the reliefs there. So everything that had to do with
20 old monuments, and the two fountains as well.
21 Q. Now, were there any large flags flying over the Old Town?
22 A. Yes, the UNICEF flag and the Red Cross flag.
23 Q. Do you mean UNICEF or UNESCO?
24 A. UNESCO, UNESCO.
25 Q. And where was the Old Town -- I'm sorry. Where were the flags
1 flying? Let's start off with the UNESCO flags. Where were they flying?
2 A. The UNESCO flag was on Fort Minceta, on St. John's Fort. Yes,
3 those two forts, yes.
4 Q. And what about the Red Cross flags?
5 A. On Fort Revelin and St. John's Fort.
6 Q. And how were Fort Revelin and St. John's Fort being used?
7 A. They were used as shelters for civilians from the Old Town.
8 Q. In October of 1991, was the Old Town shelled?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Let's move on to November. Where were you working in November of
12 A. Also at the shop.
13 Q. And were you still just working in the mornings?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And what about your wife and children? Did something happen to
16 them in November?
17 A. My wife worked at Lapad, at Cokolino, which was also within
18 Dubrovkinja, until the 5th of November when a large-scale attack took
19 place against Lapad. I was afraid for her and for my children, so on the
20 morning of the 7th, I sent them out of Dubrovnik by ship, because the
21 Yugoslav army was only allowing women and children to leave town.
22 Q. And did you remain in the municipality of Dubrovnik after they
23 left on the 7th?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Where were you living at the time?
1 A. At Babin Kuk.
2 Q. And what type of house was it that you were living in?
3 A. I lived as a sub-lessee at the apartment of the Karaman family.
4 Q. How many people were living in the house?
5 A. In that house was our landlady, her daughter-in-law, and 22 other
6 people, including us.
7 Q. Had those other 22 always lived there?
8 A. No.
9 Q. And where were they from?
10 A. From Zupa and Konavle.
11 Q. Were there any refugees living in the Old Town?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Had they moved into hotels within the Old Town or were they living
14 with friends or relatives?
15 A. With friends and relatives, in their houses.
16 Q. Now, in November, where were the JNA forces located?
17 A. In November, the JNA forces were on the slopes of the hill of Srdj
18 at Komolac and Mokosica, and the entire area in the direction of Split,
19 all the way up to Slano, I think. That is to say that we were totally
21 Q. Did you ever observe any forces on Zarkovica?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And what did you observe on Zarkovica in November of 1991?
24 A. Since we had no water and since we had to operate the way we did
25 at the store, we had to bring water from the sea in order to use it in the
1 store when we went to the toilet. So then I went carrying jerry cans in
2 order to bring seawater and then I saw trucks and men at Zarkovica
3 belonging to the JNA. That can be seen quite well from there.
4 JUDGE PARKER: Is that a convenient time, Mr. Weiner?
5 MR. WEINER: Fine. That's fine.
6 JUDGE PARKER: We'll have, then, a break for 20 minutes.
7 --- Recess taken at 12.25 p.m.
8 --- On resuming at 12.49 p.m.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Weiner.
10 MR. WEINER: Thank you.
11 Q. Now, sir, just before the break, you mentioned that you had seen
12 trucks and vehicles on Zarkovica.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Okay. Or you observed forces. Did you observe anything other
15 than forces on Zarkovica?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Now, were you able to observe anything on Strincera?
18 A. On Strincera I noticed a Yugoslav tank.
19 Q. And were you able to hear any sort of singing or songs from
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And what were you able to hear?
23 A. I heard their own authentic music.
24 Q. And when you say "authentic music," are you talking about
25 nationalistic songs?
1 A. Not at that moment, although I know that they sang that, too,
2 because I heard about it from other people.
3 Q. And when did you hear the nationalistic songs?
4 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, please. The witness, in
5 response to my learned colleague's question, gave two answers; that he
6 heard authentic songs. That is one answer. My colleague Mr. Weiner then
7 asked him whether they were nationalist songs, and the witness decidedly
8 said that he did not hear any nationalist songs, but he said that he heard
9 that other people were talking about that. Now my colleague Mr. Weiner
10 asked him, "When did you hear nationalist songs?" So he is putting words
11 into his mouth. He did not say that. He had not said that.
12 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, if you look at line 13 of the
13 transcript, he said not at that moment. So my response is I was going to
14 ask him -- or I did ask him when did he hear it if he didn't hear it at
15 that moment.
16 JUDGE PARKER: I think there's some validity in what Mr. Rodic is
17 saying, Mr. Weiner, nevertheless.
18 MR. WEINER:
19 Q. When did you hear any type of songs, sir, coming from the
21 A. I myself did not hear that, but I heard from my friends that they
22 heard that when they went to Porporela.
23 Q. All right. Now, was the city shelled in November of 1991?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And was it heavier? Was the shelling heavier than in October of
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And what were the dates that the city was shelled, if you can
5 A. Since the total blockade came into place between the 7th and 12th
6 of November, during those three or four days there was an incredible
7 amount of shelling of the Old Town itself and the town beyond that.
8 Q. Was there any shelling in Old Town's harbour?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And what, if anything, happened to the boats in that harbour?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. My question is what happened to the boats?
13 A. The small passenger boats that transported people to the islet of
14 Lokrum were destroyed then, and also an old boat. I can't remember its
15 exact name now. It had been hit, too, and it sank. I don't know exactly
16 how many, but a great many fishermens' boats belonging to civilians were
17 sunk and hit.
18 Q. What happened to your car in November 1991?
19 A. During the shelling of Babin Kuk, because the Yugoslav army
20 constantly targeted the area of the hotels at Babin Kuk where civilians
21 were, so they targeted them all the time, and during this shooting, as
22 this shooting was going on, shells were falling on Babin Kuk where I
23 lived, and that's when my -- that's when my car was hit.
24 Q. Now, after your car was hit in November or -- or first let's step
25 back. Was it destroyed?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And after your car was destroyed, did you continue to go to work
3 in the Old Town?
4 A. Yes. In the early morning hours, while it was still dark, I went
5 on foot from Babin Kuk to the Old Town.
6 Q. Let us move to December, December 6th. What did you do that
8 A. On the morning of the 6th, early in the morning, I came to the
9 store because that morning I was supposed to distribute a large amount of
10 bread. I had set out from Babin Kuk from 5.00 in the morning, so at 6.00
11 I had arrived in Boninovo. Then I saw on my left-hand side the hill of
12 Srdj, and I saw that large-scale shelling had started and a great deal of
13 shooting. I expected something big to happen, but I thought I will go on
14 because I was supposed to distribute bread that morning.
15 I passed by the hospital. I entered the Old Town and came to the
16 store. I prepared a cup of coffee, and I turned on the radio. The
17 morning news on the radio were a bit late, and they said that a
18 large-scale attack was expected on Dubrovnik and that big JNA forces were
19 on their way. I did not know exactly whether the Old Town would be
20 attacked, so then I stayed on in the store.
21 When the first shell fell - this was sometime between 6.30 and
22 7.00 - I thought to myself, "Ivo, this is no good." At that moment, the
23 late Skocko passed by in a type of vehicle that was used in the Old Town
24 for transporting food supplies. It actually -- it is actually a
25 battery-operated vehicle, and it is used for delivering supplies. As he
1 was transferring bread to his shop, Kate Buric, an employee of mine, came
2 to me and said, "Boss, I don't know whether we'll be getting any bread
3 this morning. I would like to go and get some bread from Skocko." I
4 said, "Kate, go but come back soon and then we'll see what we'll do."
5 She went there and came back, and at that moment, perhaps a few
6 minutes later, I felt as if a truck was coming, and I said, "Kate, the
7 bread is coming." I went out to the doorstep of the store and I stepped
8 outside with my right foot. I looked in the direction of the Rector's
9 Palace. On my left-hand side I realised it was not our truck, rather, at
10 that moment, somebody had taken Skocko's truck towards Gospa.
11 At that moment I felt the detonation of a shell, and I received an
12 exit/entry wound on my right foot. I turned around and I said, "Kate,
13 I've been wounded." I walked back two steps and I lay on the floor. The
14 exit/entry wound was on my right side, and I did not know at that point
15 whether it was an exit wound as well, because being so afraid as to what
16 would happen to me, I just saw the entry wound. I lay on the floor, and
17 she tried to stop the bleeding because a lot of blood was coming out of
18 the wound.
19 After awhile, we noticed that blood was curdling in my trousers.
20 Then we realised that the exit wound was even bigger than the entry wound.
21 She called the doctor who was at St. John's Fort and at Revelin. I don't
22 know exactly which doctor she received this information from, that, of
23 course, she should not put anything on the wound and that if she had
24 anything, she should try to bandage the wound and stop the bleeding.
25 Since the shelling of the Old Town itself was incredibly intense,
1 an ambulance could not come. Nobody could enter town due to fear and, of
2 course, because of the shelling itself. So I lay there for two hours,
4 Q. Okay. Just stop there for a second. You said at first you were
5 shot in the foot. Where were you shot, sir? You said the right foot.
6 Were you shot in the foot?
7 A. Not in the foot but in the right upper leg, between the knee and
8 this part here.
9 Q. All right. We'll get to that shortly. So in the right upper leg.
10 Do you mean the thigh?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, you said after you laid down, you said
13 Kate tried to stop the bleeding. What did she do the first time when she
14 tried to stop the bleeding?
15 A. Yes. As I was wearing jeans and had a jeans jacket and I also had
16 jeans on my legs, she used my belt, tightening it just below the thigh in
17 order to staunch the bleeding.
18 Q. Did that work?
19 A. Actually, no, it didn't, because the entry wound was quite large.
20 She was not successful, but the bleeding was less profuse.
21 Q. Now, you said that she then called a doctor who said try anything
22 to -- find something to use as a bandage. What -- what did she wind up
24 A. As I was quite frightened seeing that the situation was like that,
25 that I was bleeding and my blood pressure was automatically dropping, and
1 of course in addition to that I was afraid of a shell landing directly on
2 us because there is nothing -- there was nothing above me, there was no
3 concrete slab, there was nothing which was made of solid material but
4 something which was made of wattle, I believe. It was lightweight
5 material which was above us. So I was afraid that a shell might land
6 directly on me. So in this situation she, too, was afraid and feared for
7 her life, so she called the doctor, asking him what we were to do.
8 Q. And after the doctor told her use anything you can to bandage it,
9 what did she use? What did she do to bandage your leg? Tell us how she
10 did it.
11 A. In our shop we didn't have anything but two or three crates of
12 lemon, and we had some tampons, ladies' tampons, so this is what she used
13 at that particular moment. She used Kotex, the pads, and she tore my
14 shirt and wrapped my wound with it, and that helped as much as it could.
15 Q. How did you feel at that time?
16 A. Very, very bad.
17 Q. Was she able to give you anything? Was there any coffee? Was
18 there anything she could give you at the time?
19 A. As I said, there was nothing in the shop apart from lemon. She
20 squeezed some lemon juice, and as the doctor said, don't let him fall
21 asleep, because if he does, he will die on you.
22 Q. Now, you said you were there for some hours because you couldn't
23 get an ambulance. Did the shelling continue during that morning?
24 A. Yes, it did.
25 Q. And how extensive or heavy or light was the shelling?
1 A. It was very extensive.
2 Q. And were you able to get an ambulance?
3 A. No. No, we weren't. Actually, sometime around 9.30 - I cannot
4 recall the exact time - of course given the situation I was in at that
5 particular moment, I don't see how anyone could remember the exact time.
6 Anyway, she got in touch with the people in the office at Dubrovkinja and
7 fortunately, the telephone lines were functional. So she told them down
8 there, "Ivo has been wounded. What are we to do? He can die." So
9 between those -- of these people, I did not know exactly this person, but
10 later I found out who was the person who had saved my life. So Mr. Mario
11 Mrkusic, who was one of these people, took his yellow Golf car and was
12 courageous enough and responsible enough to take this yellow Golf of his
13 and set out from the old barracks, which is at Lapad, and came and fetched
14 me, and I was already at the end of my strength. So he took me and Kate,
15 and then we took the Od Puca Street directly to the Pile Gate.
16 As we were going through the Od Puca Street, I noticed a fire, a
17 blaze to my left, meaning that I saw houses that were burning, houses
18 which were opposite the Orthodox church. There was an incredible amount
19 of material on the street so that he had to dodge the rubble, the bricks,
20 all the debris on the floor, on the pavement, rather. And I remember only
21 that we arrived eventually at Pile, the Pile Gate.
22 The Hotel Imperijal was also on fire. It was ablaze, and that's
23 all I remember. I don't recall anything else because at that moment I
24 fainted, and I only came to at the hospital. And the hospital is in the
25 new part of Lapad, and this is a new hospital, by the way, because the
1 orthopaedic ward and the surgical ward, all these medical - how shall I
2 put it? - the medical and surgical ward had already been transferred to
3 this new hospital and were there.
4 Q. All right. Let's just step back. Now, you said one of the people
5 or one of those persons was this gentleman who came over and helped you,
6 Mr. Mrkusic. Was he an employee of Dubrovkinja?
7 A. Yes. Yes.
8 Q. And was he an employee at the administrative officers where Kate
10 A. Yes, he was.
11 Q. Now, you said you saw some damage as you were leaving. You
12 indicated three buildings opposite the Orthodox church.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And was there any other damage that you saw before you left
15 through the Pile Gate?
16 A. I saw the Onofrio fountain. It had been hit. And also in Siroka
17 Street I noticed a house on fire. Basically, I noticed a lot, but believe
18 me, at that particular moment, with my life endangered, I was not paying
19 so much attention to what was going on outside.
20 Q. Okay. Now, sir --
21 MR. WEINER: With the Court's permission, could he please stand?
22 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. Yes, that may be done.
23 MR. WEINER:
24 Q. Mr. Vlasica, could you please stand up for a moment and step to
25 the side so the Court could see. Could you step to the side. To the
1 right -- or left side. Thank you.
2 Could you please first show the Court how you were standing in
3 that entryway. You said you were standing partially out the entryway of
4 your store when you got hit.
5 A. This is the door, this is the street, so I went out in this
6 fashion and looked downwards. At that moment, a shell landed to my right,
7 and I was hit here.
8 Q. Okay.
9 MR. WEINER: First, may the record reflect that the witness is
10 standing at an angle, with his right foot out front at kind of a 45-degree
12 Q. Could you now show once again on your leg where the entry wound
13 was, please. Show the Court.
14 A. Here.
15 MR. WEINER: May the record reflect that the witness is pointing
16 to his right leg, approximately ten to 15 centimetres below the hip. By
17 the pocket, the right side pocket.
18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Mr. Weiner.
19 MR. WEINER: Sorry. By the right side pocket.
20 JUDGE PARKER: And on the outer aspect of the leg.
21 MR. WEINER: Yes, on the outer side of the leg.
22 Q. Now, could you please turn and show the Court where the exit wound
23 was, if you could, as best you could.
24 A. [Indicates]?
25 MR. WEINER: May the record reflect, Your Honour, that he is
1 pointing to the inner thigh, the upper part of it, approximately 20
2 centimetres above the knee. Thank you.
3 Q. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. You can sit down
4 again. Thank you.
5 MR. WEINER: Could the witness please be shown Exhibit 13.
6 Actually, could we show him this copy of Exhibit 13 in case he'd like to
7 mark. Thank you.
8 Q. Sir, do you recognise that map in front of you?
9 A. Yes, I do.
10 Q. And is that the Old Town?
11 A. Yes, it is.
12 Q. Could you please put an X where you worked, using one of the pens
13 or pencils, to show the Court where you worked.
14 A. [Marks]
15 Q. Now, could you just point to the Court -- could you show them the
16 area where you saw Tonci Skocko pass on that kind of trolley, that little
17 truck or however you want to describe it.
18 A. Taking the Od Puca Street towards my shop, which is here in -- I
19 believe that the name of the street is Uska Street. I'm not sure.
20 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, may the record reflect that the witness,
21 using the pointer, pointed down Od Puca Street from the beginning with
22 Lucarica Street, pointing towards the intersection of Od Puca Street and
23 Uska Street.
24 Q. Just a couple questions about Mr. Skocko. You said the late
25 Skocko. Which Skocko are you referring to? Do you know the man's first
2 A. Skocko Junior, the son, Tonci.
3 Q. And when you saw Tonci Skocko drive by in that small truck with
4 bread on it, can you tell us, do you recall how he was dressed?
5 A. He was wearing civilian clothes.
6 Q. Was he in a uniform of some kind, whether a work uniform or a
7 military uniform?
8 A. No, he wasn't.
9 Q. Did he have a gun or a weapon? Did you see a gun or a weapon on
11 A. No, I didn't.
12 Q. Do you know what he did for work, Tonci Skocko?
13 A. He helped his father in his father's shop, being his son of
14 course, and that was a family business.
15 Q. And his father's shop, was that one of the private grocery stores?
16 A. Yes, it was. Yes. It had a wide assortment of goods. There were
17 fruits, there were vegetables, all sorts of foodstuffs, detergents,
18 beverages; sort of a supermarket store.
19 Q. All right. Now, sir, looking at the map, could you please show us
20 the route that you drove to leave the Old Town and go towards the
22 A. So from the spot of wounding, taking the Od Puca Street, so from
23 the place where I was wounded, through the Od Puca Street, up to the exit
24 towards the Pile Gate.
25 Q. And as you were leaving, you said that you saw some houses that
1 were on fire. Can you give us an idea of the area where the houses were,
2 approximate area?
3 A. Well, as for the exact location, yes, it's here. Number 21. I
4 believe this is where the Orthodox church should be on this map. And
5 opposite from number 21, towards me, was the place where these houses were
6 on fire. And there was the barbershop of Jako, a well-known barber,
7 there. And here also was a shop, the Yugoslav shop, which also burnt
8 down. So it is in this row here of houses opposite from the Orthodox
10 Q. Now, sir, could you also show us the area that you said that you
11 saw rubble -- or, no, you said that you saw material on the street and
12 that they had to dodge that to get you out of there.
13 A. Mr. Mrkusic, who was driving me, he had to evade the fragments and
14 stone pieces and shards and the pieces of the building material that had
15 fallen on the street. So this entire street -- in this entire street that
16 we took, everything was on the pavement.
17 Q. And when you say the entire street, are you referring to Od Puca
19 A. Yes, I am.
20 Q. Okay. Thank you. And one last thing on that map. Could you
21 please show us the -- you said the fountain was damaged. Where was that?
22 A. Here.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 MR. WEINER: May the record reflect that the witness is pointing
25 to number 5 on the map. Thank you.
1 Thank you, Madam Usher.
2 Q. Now, you say you fainted. When did you awaken or regain
3 consciousness? Where were you?
4 A. I was on a table in the hospital. They were going to X-ray my leg
5 because they wanted to determine whether the bone was fractured. And as
6 they were ripping off the clothes off me, I regained consciousness at that
7 particular moment, and the only thing I did was to ask the person who was
8 attending to me whether my bone was damaged, and he said, "No, Ivo, it
9 isn't." And believe me, I was relieved.
10 Q. Now, how long did you remain in the hospital?
11 A. I remained there from the 6th to the 21st.
12 Q. And during that time, did you receive any blood?
13 A. Yes, I did.
14 Q. Had you lost much blood from the wound?
15 A. Believe me, I don't know how much blood I had lost, but I did
16 bleed profusely. And to illustrate this, as I said at the beginning,
17 there was a blood clot, and that meant that a lot of blood had actually
18 left my body. Not being a doctor, I don't know exactly how much.
19 Q. Now, sir, when you got to the hospital on that day, did they
20 stitch or suture the wound immediately? Did they stitch it?
21 A. No, they didn't. There was a big gap, and the entry wound was
22 quite large, and as this was caused by shrapnel, of course it had to be
23 cleaned to avoid the wound from being contaminated and infected, because
24 that could mean that my leg would have to go off.
25 Q. Did they eventually stitch the wound?
1 A. Yes, they did. They did. I don't know when exactly, how much
2 time had passed, but they did suture the wound.
3 Q. Who stitched the wound, a doctor or a nurse or -- who stitched it?
4 A. While they were stitching the wound, they moved me from the
5 cellar, from the basement to the suture room and the room in which they
6 perform surgery, and it was Dr. Dalmatin who did the stitching with the
7 aid of two nurses, two anaesthesiologists.
8 Q. Now, when they stitched your wound, did you they use any
10 A. Since the wound was not that large, it was -- no, they didn't use
11 any anaesthesia on me.
12 Q. Why wasn't anaesthesia used? Was there a large amount of
13 anaesthesia in the hospital?
14 A. Well, from what I heard from the nurses, they didn't have
15 anaesthetics in abundant supply there so that, in minor cases, this was
16 the procedure applied.
17 Q. Can you tell us what the nurses did to enable the doctor to stitch
18 or suture your leg?
19 A. One of the nurses held me -- held my chest and the other held my
20 legs, held down my legs.
21 Q. And how did she hold down your hands? Did any of them get on top
22 of you?
23 A. She lay on me. She had to in order to actually hold me down in
24 the bed.
25 Q. And did they put anything in your mouth?
1 A. Yes, some gauze in order for me not to bite my tongue or do any
2 harm to my teeth.
3 Q. And as these two nurses held you down, did the doctor stitch your
5 A. It wasn't the proper suturing procedure. It wasn't a regular
6 suture. On the upper side there were three, and on the lower side there
7 were four, and there was an interval in the centre because the wound
8 promised to heal very quickly. So they just wanted to put together the
9 upper and lower parts of it.
10 I can show you. I can show you how actually the actual suturing
11 was done. It is still obvious.
12 Q. Now, were you in pain during this suturing or during this
13 stitching? Did it hurt?
14 A. Of course it hurt.
15 Q. Now, you were in the hospital for approximately 15 days, a little
16 over two weeks.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And after you left the hospital, did you have to return for
19 out-patient treatment?
20 A. Yes. I would come every day to the hospital for dressing, for my
21 wound to be dressed.
22 Q. And when you say your wound had to be dressed, what did they do?
23 A. First they would clean the wound and then they would apply a new
24 bandage. As I couldn't remain in hospital nor were there any beds in fact
25 in the hospital at the time because of the large number of wounded and
1 there were wounded people all over the hospital, it was only natural that
2 we with minor wounds would be discharged. So we went home, but we did
3 return repeatedly in order to be examined for any contamination or sepsis
4 and, God forbid, gangrene.
5 Q. Now, sir, when you say you were in a room, you were in a room with
6 other patients during the 15 days you were in hospital?
7 A. Yes, I was.
8 Q. And I know in your statement you mention that you became friends
9 with another patient called Zika. Is that the proper pronunciation of his
11 A. Yes, this Zika I can say was one of the most courageous people up
12 on the hill of Srdj. When the forces of the Yugoslav People's Army came
13 quite close, practically at the very entrance to the fort, a shell landed
14 near him, and I don't know exactly from which side, he didn't tell me
15 that, actually it was a hand grenade and wounded him, and he was dead, 80
16 per cent dead. I mean, with the help of Sveto Antunovic who carried him
17 down - and he is of a slender build, this Zika - so this person carried
18 him down to the coastal road below the Srdj, and from there they took him
19 to the hospital, and he told me how bloody it had been up there. And he
20 also told me, "Believe me, if we were not that courageous, they would have
21 killed us all."
22 Q. This person Zika who was with you in the hospital who you
23 described as courageous, what was the nature and extent of his injuries?
24 A. He had very many wounds. As I said in my statement, literally
25 speaking, he was 80 per cent dead. He couldn't pass stool, he couldn't
1 have any normal functions. Everything, all of these functions were
2 actually led outside his body through a portion of his stomach.
3 Q. So when you talk about your injuries being not as serious, you're
4 comparing that to his or other people in that category, aren't you?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. After you got out of the hospital after 15 days, you testified
7 that you went for out-patient treatment. How long -- how long did the
8 pain last in your leg?
9 A. I felt this pain in my leg for a good 40 days, until it had more
10 or less wholly healed and I could be able to walk. I had to walk, in
11 fact, because I had no one to escort me, I had no car, so I had to
12 exercise my muscle which had been pierced. But still today I feel the
13 pain, especially when there are weather changes. Of course I can feel my
14 leg reacting to them.
15 Q. So -- so over 13 years later, you still feel pain in that leg,
17 A. Yes, of course, even today. And even today, a partly damaged part
18 can be seen which covers a large surface.
19 Q. Sir, I'd like to show you a document from the hospital to look at,
21 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, or Your Honours, this witness, when he
22 arrived, brought this document, and we're having it interpreted at this
23 time. So -- and we've given it to the interpreters. If you'd like to
24 have them read it, or I could have this witness read it.
25 All right. Why don't we start off.
1 JUDGE PARKER: What is the second page?
2 MR. WEINER: They did get it yesterday. Much faster than I
4 Q. Now, sir, do you recognise that document?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And how do you recognise it?
7 A. I got this document from the hospital before I came here.
8 Q. And what is that document and what does it concern?
9 A. This is my discharge sheet from the hospital confirming that I had
10 been wounded and that I was in hospital between the 6th and the 21st of
12 Q. And do you recognise the names of the persons who signed it?
13 A. Yes. This is currently the director of the hospital in Dubrovnik,
14 and Dr. Jaksa Segedin, yes.
15 Q. Thank you. And could you read it, the B/C/S version, into the
16 record, please, sir.
17 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there is no need for us
18 to waste time, because we have got the document both in B/C/S and in
19 English. So I believe it is superfluous for it to be read out. The
20 witness explained what it was.
21 JUDGE PARKER: As most times, Mr. Rodic, I do agree with you.
22 MR. WEINER: That's fine, Your Honour. I'll offer it at this time
24 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Your Honour, may I address
1 If this document is being admitted into evidence as a Prosecution
2 Exhibit, the Defence kindly asks that it only be marked for identification
3 now because we received the document only yesterday. So then after
4 cross-examination a final decision can be made on this. Thank you.
5 JUDGE PARKER: From -- from the translation, Mr. Weiner, it seems
6 to be describing an injury to the other leg than the one identified by the
8 MR. WEINER: Yes, I know, but it's on their left and his right.
9 Looking at him it's on the left, and -- if you look at a person it's their
10 left and on that person itself it's his right. What angle or --
11 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
12 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Have you any problem with the document as it is one
14 that hasn't been considered by the Defence being simply marked for the
15 moment until they've had a chance to consider it?
16 MR. WEINER: That's fair. That's fair, Your Honour.
17 THE REGISTRAR: MFI P84.
18 MR. WEINER:
19 Q. Now, sir, after you got out of the hospital and completed your
20 out-patient treatment, did you ever return to the Old Town?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And when was that, sir?
23 A. In February 1992.
24 Q. And when you returned, did you walk through the Old Town?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And what areas of the Old Town did you walk through? Could you
2 show them on the map, please.
3 A. Across Stradun, along Lucarica Street, then Gunduliceva Polja,
4 then my street, Od Puca, where I worked.
5 Q. And what did you notice? Let's start off on Stradun that you just
6 showed us where you walked. What did you notice on the Stradun?
7 A. A great deal of destruction.
8 Q. If we look at destruction at a range from shrapnel damaging a
9 facade to total destruction of a building, totally destroying a building,
10 how many buildings in the Stradun received some sort of damage?
11 A. I don't know if there was one that had not been damaged.
12 Basically every one of them had been hit.
13 Q. And did this condition or level of damage to all the buildings on
14 the Stradun, did this exist prior to December 6, 1991? Was it in that
15 condition prior to December 6th?
16 A. No. No. No.
17 Q. Now, you said you walked along Od Puca Street, your street where
18 your store was. What did you observe along Od Puca Street?
19 A. Since two months had gone by since I had last been in town, of
20 course it was cleaned so that the town could function properly. All the
21 debris that had fallen on the streets had been cleared and the damage was
22 due to the shelling. However, the town of Dubrovnik was gravely wounded.
23 One could see what had burned down and also one could see a great deal of
25 Q. Let's talk about Od Puca Street. Could you describe, as best that
1 you can recall, the damage that you saw in February 1992 on Street Od Puca
2 after you returned?
3 A. How can I put this to you? When you imagine the house that was on
4 my left-hand side, it was intact before and now you can see that it had
5 burned completely, from top to bottom. Only the outside walls were left.
6 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.
7 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Rodic.
8 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] I do apologise for interrupting my
9 learned friend once again, but I believe that this is relevant in view of
10 the period of the indictment. That should be borne in mind when speaking
11 of the damage. The question of the damage that could be seen in February
12 1992, specifically this is a point in time which is three months after
13 what had occurred on the 6th of December. What happened in the meantime
14 is not clear. What does the witness know about these three months during
15 which he was absent from the Old Town? Could he have known what the
16 damage was before the 5th, 6th, 7th, or 15th of January? That remains
18 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Rodic.
19 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 JUDGE PARKER: We're well conscious of that issue.
21 Yes, Mr. Weiner. Carry on.
22 MR. WEINER: Thank you.
23 Q. Sir, what other damage did you notice on Od Puca Street? You
24 mentioned the building to the left of you. What other damage?
25 A. The entire street, all the shop windows were broken. Basically
1 nothing was functional. Everything was in wooden boards. If anything did
2 work - I cannot say whether anything was working at the time; all the shop
3 windows were sealed off with wooden boards. There was an incredible
4 amount of destruction. The shells or anything else that had fallen, any
5 other kind of ordnance, had done a lot of damage. There was nothing left.
6 Everything was broken; the doors, the windows. Then the statute of
7 St. Joseph, it was hit. Then a shell had fallen on the Church of St.
8 Joseph. This was done systematically. The intention was to raze the Old
9 Town, to destroy it.
10 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, I think this is an appropriate time to
11 break for the day.
12 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. We will resume tomorrow.
13 Mr. Vlasica, I must ask you to return to continue with your
14 evidence tomorrow. Thank you.
15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,
16 to be reconvened on Friday, the 27th day of
17 February, 2004, at 9.00 a.m.