1 Friday, 23 April 2004

2 [Open Session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.32 p.m.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon. Sorry about the delayed start.

7 Apparently the previous hearing ran over in time a little.

8 Ms. Mahindaratne.

9 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour. Before I start, Your

10 Honours, there are three corrections to be made to the transcript

11 material. Corrections, so may I be permitted?

12 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.

13 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Since LiveNote has not yet been updated to the

14 Word form, what I have is the LiveNote pages, not transcript page numbers.

15 I'm referring to page 38 of LiveNote, line 10. The witness indicated that

16 the position which he marked as "B" on the map came into existence in the

17 second half of December. However, it has gone down on the record as the

18 second half of November, so it should be corrected to read as "second half

19 of December."

20 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.

21 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Then the next correction is at page 50, line

22 22. I asked a question with regard to the park named Gradac, and

23 indicated it as which is below Bogisica Park, but it has -- the record has

24 gone down as Bosanka. So the word "Bosanka" to be read as Bogisica Park.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

1 MS. MAHINDARATNE: The third correction is at page 65, line 13.

2 The witness marked the Maljutka at Hotel President in Lapad in the second

3 mark with the marking letter "D," but the record does down as "B." So the

4 record to be corrected as "D."

5 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

6 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Your Honours.

7 JUDGE PARKER: May I just remind you, Mr. Negodic, of the

8 affirmation you took at the beginning, which still applies.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, of course.

10 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May I proceed, Your Honours?

11 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.

12 WITNESS: IVAN NEGODIC: [Resumed]

13 [Witness answered through interpreter]

14 Examined by Ms. Mahindaratne: [Continued]

15 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Negodic.

16 A. Good afternoon.

17 Q. At close of sessions last evening, we were discussing the

18 anti-aircraft position which is indicated to the north of the Old Town.

19 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May the witness be shown the map we were

20 discussing yesterday. Both maps, perhaps. That is, map bearing P159, and

21 the second one which he was marking.

22 Q. When I asked you, Mr. Negodic, as to if you were aware as to if

23 the anti-aircraft position indicated to the north of the Old Town was at

24 that location on 6th December 1991, you indicated a degree of uncertainty

25 and went on to say that there was an alternative position at the Gradac

1 Park for that particular weapon. And you indicated the park which is

2 depicted to the west of the Old Town, on the coastal line. Isn't that

3 correct, sir?

4 A. Yes, that is correct.

5 Q. Perhaps you could place -- I think the map which is on the ELMO is

6 the wrong map. The wrong one. It should be the other map that should be

7 on the ELMO.

8 So could you please -- yes, you're placing the pointer at the

9 position. Now, could you indicate as to of these two positions, which

10 position was considered as the basic combat position for that weapon and

11 which was considered as the reserve position?

12 A. I can't say that with certainty.

13 Q. Can you indicate as to what criteria is used to determine as to

14 which position should be used as the basic combat position and which as

15 the reserve? I'm not referring to these particular positions. Generally,

16 what is the criteria used?

17 A. At our meetings, we decided which the main axis of attack the

18 enemy would take, and that's where we set up our basic combat positions.

19 This tentative attack, should the enemy attack from another direction,

20 then there must be an alternative combat position.

21 Q. Considering the nature of the attack on 6 December, what would you

22 have considered to be the most suitable position out of these two

23 positions to place the weapon?

24 A. As far as anti-aircraft defence is concerned, I'm not a

25 professional in that sphere myself, but I think that I am sufficiently

1 trained, generally speaking, for me to conclude that a better combat

2 position would be this one here, the one I'm indicating on the map now.

3 Q. That is the position at Gradac Park?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Could you explain the reasons behind your conclusion?

6 A. In my view, air attacks that took place in November 1991, when the

7 Srdj fort was targeted, I think that a better place for targeting was from

8 that hill rather than in the depression between the houses.

9 Q. Can you explain as to what that position, the north of the Old

10 Town, looks like, and what is it? Are there houses there, structures?

11 What exactly is that place?

12 A. As far as I know, they were located at the cable-car, the lower

13 part, which goes up to Fort Srdj.

14 Q. And from there, what are the positions one could target with an

15 anti-aircraft weapon?

16 A. As I said yesterday, these two positions, the ones we're

17 discussing at the cable-car and to the east of that, was intended for

18 aircrafts alone.

19 Q. And on 6 December 1991, were there any attacks carried out by

20 aircrafts?

21 A. No.

22 Q. In that context, what would anti-aircraft weapons be used where

23 there are no aircraft attacks carried out? Do you use for alternative

24 targets?

25 A. No.

1 Q. You indicated earlier on with regard to the two previous

2 anti-aircraft positions, especially the first one we discussed about, that

3 you recall seeing that particular position firing on the 6th of December,

4 1991, because you remember seeing the third round, which was a tracer.

5 That was -- that being an aircraft -- anti-aircraft weapon --

6 A. No. What I said was that -- was this: In the Orshan area, I saw

7 a three-barrel weapon, because every fourth or fifth bullet is a tracer

8 bullet. That's what I said. The one we are talking about was Strela,

9 that position. The Strela 2-M was there, and the so-called Igla, or pin

10 weapon, and that is intended exclusively for aircrafts and was not used on

11 the 6th of December.

12 Q. So is it the position that a three-barrelled anti-aircraft weapon

13 can be used on positions other than aircrafts, on alternative targets as

14 opposed to the anti-aircraft weapon referred to as Strela?

15 A. Yes, of course. And as I've already said, this three-barrelled

16 weapon targeted the peak and surrounding areas of Srdj and Fort Srdj as

17 well.

18 Q. Can a single-barrelled or double-barrelled anti-aircraft be used

19 to target positions other than aircrafts? I'm sorry, "anti-aircraft

20 weapon," it should read.

21 A. Yes, of course. The infantry and some lighter targets. But in 99

22 per cent of the cases, it is only for the infantry.

23 Q. And your position is that a Strela -- or, I'm sorry, my

24 pronunciation might be bad, but Igla, or pin weapon, cannot be used on

25 anything, against any other target other than an aircraft?

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1 A. I can't say it cannot, but it would be too costly a device to

2 deploy for any other purposes.

3 Q. Can you give us an idea about the cost of a single projectile used

4 for a Strela or an Igla weapon?

5 A. I really don't know. I can't say. I don't know.

6 Q. Is it relatively more expensive than other forms of ammunition?

7 A. Yes, of course. Many times over.

8 Q. Now, according to what you said, the position indicated north of

9 the Old Town, if in fact it was deployed on the 6th of December, would

10 have had either a Strela or an Igla weapon.

11 A. We can't call that a position per se, as such. It's a device that

12 you place on your shoulder. It takes three minutes to put it into a small

13 vehicle and transfer it to another position if we can call it a position

14 at all.

15 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Your Honour, I have been informed that there is

16 a transcript error. May I just take a moment to find that out?

17 JUDGE PARKER: Certainly.

18 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I'm sorry, Your Honour. I will check this

19 during the break.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

21 MS. MAHINDARATNE:

22 Q. I'm sorry, Mr. Negodic, for that interruption.

23 A. That's all right.

24 Q. Now, initially when I asked you as to whether your forces had

25 anti-aircraft weapons, you indicated four weapons; a three-barrelled

1 weapon, a single- or double-barrelled weapon, a Strela, and an Igla. Now,

2 so far we have gone through this map with regard to three positions,

3 containing three of those weapons. Would you please drag your pointer

4 down to the balance position, the fourth anti-aircraft position. It's to

5 the east of the Old Town.

6 A. [Indicates]

7 Q. No, Mr. Negodic. I'm talking about the fourth position we did not

8 deal with so far. That is to the east of the Old Town. You just pointed

9 the position we've already dealt with.

10 A. [Indicates]

11 Q. Can you indicate as to what is that location known as?

12 A. We call that Ploce, or Zlatni Potok.

13 Q. And what was the weapon? Obviously it's an anti-aircraft weapon.

14 Do you know what was positioned there? Was it the Strela or the Igla?

15 Because that's --

16 A. I'm not quite sure. It could have either been -- it could have

17 been one or the other at any of these two places, either the Strela or the

18 Igla.

19 Q. So between the two positions, the position indicated north of the

20 Old Town and the east of the Old Town, it could have been either the

21 Strela or the Igla?

22 A. Yes, that's right.

23 Q. And both these weapons you indicated were generally used only

24 against aircrafts?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Do you know if the position at -- towards the east of the Old Town

2 fired on 6th of December, 1991?

3 A. No.

4 Q. When you say "no," is it the case of you don't know, or is it that

5 it did not fire?

6 A. It did not fire, no.

7 Q. Now, you indicated that the first -- at the first position, the

8 anti-aircraft weapon which was there was on a vehicle.

9 A. Yes. It was on a truck.

10 Q. The second position, was it on a vehicle?

11 A. I don't know about that second position. I don't know any of the

12 details there.

13 Q. The Strela and the Igla, how were they used? Were they mobile?

14 Were they used from vehicles, or were they fixed?

15 A. They didn't have fixed positions. They would be transported on

16 vehicles, according to need.

17 Q. Do you know if any of those -- any -- I'm sorry. Let me rephrase

18 that. Do you know the anti-aircraft weapon which was mounted on a

19 vehicle, which is the first question, was ever used within the walls of

20 the Old Town?

21 A. No, of course not.

22 Q. Was it ever present within the Old Town? And I'm giving the time

23 period 1st October 1991 to 31st December 1991.

24 A. Not a single anti-aircraft weapon of the artillery or anything

25 else entered the Old Town.

1 Q. Apart from the four positions indicated here with regard to the

2 anti-aircraft weapons' position, do you know if there were any other

3 anti-aircraft positions existing on the 6th of December, 1991 which are

4 not depicted on this map?

5 A. To the best of my knowledge, there were no other positions.

6 Q. Now, you made two amendments -- not two. You made four amendments

7 to this map. You drew squares around two positions which were not there

8 on the 6th of December, 1991, being the mortar position at the position

9 marked "B" and the ZIS cannon position at the position marked -- I beg

10 your pardon, Your Honours. I need to get the markings right. Position

11 marked "C." It was ZIS cannon.

12 A. The Montovjerna combat position, if I might be of assistance.

13 Q. Thank you, sir. And then you added two positions to the map being

14 positions that were there on the 6th of December, 1991, which are not

15 reflected in this map, being the Maljutka position at Hotel President in

16 Lapad, by the coastal line, the position marked "D"; and the position at

17 Mala Petka, which is the position marked "C."

18 A. Yes, that's right.

19 Q. Now, subject to these amendments, sir, would you say the second

20 map now reflects all mortars, artillery, and aircraft weapons which were

21 in place on the 6th of December, 1991? Subject to those four amendments.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Therefore, in reference to mortars positions and artillery

24 positions, anti-aircraft weapon positions, does this second map now

25 reflect the ground situation as at 6 December 1991?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Are there -- do you know -- I beg your pardon. Let me rephrase

3 it. Were there any positions on the 6th of December, 1991 in place which

4 are now not reflected on these two maps?

5 A. To the best of my knowledge, no.

6 Q. Is there any artillery, mortar, or anti-aircraft positions

7 indicated on these two maps, and subject to the amendments, which were not

8 there on the 6th of December, 1991? And I'm saying subject to the

9 amendments. With the exception of those two -- those positions that you

10 drew squares around which you said were not there on the 6th of December,

11 1991. With the exception of those, are there any that are indicated here

12 which were not there on the 6th of December, 1991?

13 A. That's right.

14 Q. When you say "that's right," sir, you mean the positions now

15 reflected there are all as at 6 December 1991, with the exception of those

16 which are indicated with squares?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 A. That's correct. The positions that we drew on the map, the

20 positions that we later corrected, that's the situation on the 6th of

21 December.

22 Q. Thank you, sir. I don't intend to take too much of time with

23 regard to the other markings on this second map, Mr. Negodic, but for

24 purpose of information: Would you briefly indicate as to what the orange

25 lines and the blue lines, the broken lines on the map, depict.

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1 A. These red lines are used to mark positions of some of our forces,

2 and the blue lines are used to mark enemy positions.

3 Q. When you say "positions," are you talking about infantry

4 positions?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And could you give us some idea as to about how many soldiers are

7 deployed at a given line, one of those broken lines. And I'm talking

8 about the red lines, your positions.

9 A. I'm not familiar with details. There was simply no time for that.

10 Q. Would you be able to give us an approximate idea, approximately

11 how many soldiers were deployed at a given position? Not every position,

12 but --

13 A. This red line here, each of these red lines may be used to mark

14 positions occupied by 1 person or by 11 persons. So that's only generally

15 speaking.

16 Q. Could you give some indication as to about how many soldiers were

17 deployed around the wider city of Dubrovnik, in the infantry positions.

18 And I'm talking about on your side.

19 A. Roughly speaking, towards the fort of Srdj, between 120 and 140

20 men. As for the infantry, I can only generalise, because there's no way I

21 can know the exact number.

22 Q. Can you give us some idea as to what those black boxes with the

23 circles there indicate? What do they depict? There is a line of black

24 boxes just in front of your confrontation line. What do they indicate?

25 A. They indicate minefields on the slopes of Srdj, just above the

1 road. The road running along the upper side of the town of Dubrovnik.

2 Q. And what was the purpose of those positions? Was it to prevent

3 the onslaught of enemy troops?

4 A. I believe it was used to prevent infantry attacks against

5 Dubrovnik.

6 Q. And could you give us a general idea as to what the rectangular

7 objects within your lines are, that is, the ones indicated with black and

8 white, as well as the black circles.

9 A. In relation to your first question, that's how we marked shelters.

10 Some sort of a field shelter. As for the black circles, the circles that

11 are drawn along the access roads, those were probably surprise mines or

12 something along these lines. If I may just add a commentary to this.

13 Q. Yes, please do so.

14 A. These questions should be addressed to a professional soldier. I

15 am no professional soldier myself. I'm just trying to help clarify the

16 situation that prevailed on the 6th of December and prior to that date.

17 Thank you very much.

18 Q. Yes. That's exactly what I was trying to do, Mr. Negodic, and we

19 will not pursue this map any further.

20 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Your Honours, I move to tender this map in

21 evidence.

22 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

23 THE REGISTRAR: This document is marked P160.

24 MS. MAHINDARATNE:

25 Q. Mr. Negodic, in the course of an operation, who decides as to

1 which of your artillery or mortar positions should fire, and at which

2 targets? Who decides that? As chief of artillery, is it your

3 responsibility?

4 A. The main order would have been given by the defence commander,

5 Nojko Marinovic. In the course of combat operations, I, Ivan Negodic,

6 would be the one to give the orders. I can add a clarification. The

7 reason that I was the one who gave the orders was because that was my

8 position. I was the commander, the chief of artillery, and an observer.

9 I was the chief of reconnaissance unit. Therefore, I had a twofold

10 capacity. Thank you.

11 Q. As such, sir, is it correct to say that you would have been thus

12 in a position to know exactly which of your positions fired at which

13 targets on 6th of December, 1991?

14 A. Yes, naturally, I would have been in a position. I had to be

15 familiar with this, because that was the only way to guide our own fire.

16 Q. And would that be the case even with regard to operations

17 conducted in -- or perhaps let me rephrase it. Your responses to JNA

18 operations conducted in October and November 1991?

19 A. I'm not sure I understand the question.

20 Q. With regard to your fire missions conducted in October, and I'm

21 referring to the time period 23rd, 24th October, and fire missions

22 conducted in November, and I'm referring to the period 8 November to 13th

23 November, would it have been during this period also you who would have

24 decided as to which Croatian positions fired at which JNA targets?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Where were you on 6 December 1991?

2 A. I was at combat position occupied by 76 millimetres ZIS cannon

3 near the bridge, on Ivo Vojnovic Street.

4 Q. You responded to one of my questions that the crew at the position

5 near the SDK building, which is the crew commanded by Primic, was at that

6 particular position on 6 December 1991. Now, how do you know this, sir?

7 A. I know because I was the one who gave the order. I'll explain, if

8 I may, why the order was given to begin with. That unit was at two

9 different combat positions. One was near the SDK building, and the other

10 was at about 120 metres to the east of the Old Town. The purpose of this

11 other position was to prevent infantry attacks from the east, which means

12 from the Dubac area. As the engineering unit had laid mines along that

13 direction and, and as there was firing from all kinds of weapons,

14 accompanied by an infantry attack and tanks, the meaning of that

15 particular combat position was lost. An order was given to evacuate the

16 people, to withdraw the people, and not to open fire from there, because

17 it was too near the Old Town.

18 Q. Did you at any stage during the 6th of December, 1991, visit the

19 position near SDK building?

20 A. Yes. At about 11.30, I was informed that we had run out of

21 ammunition. They said I should do something in order to improve the

22 situation. I got into my car and drove over to the combat positions. I

23 couldn't find the commander or the deputy commander. They had left for

24 another combat position at Lazaret, because there were four mines there

25 that they had gone there to fetch.

1 Q. At that time you visited the particular position, was the entire

2 crew there, with the exception of the commander and the deputy?

3 A. Yes. I found the entire crew there in the basement of the SDK

4 building.

5 Q. Thank you. On the 6th of December, 1991, were you in a position

6 to observe the Croat fire?

7 A. Yes, except from the mortar positions, which was at Solitudo.

8 Q. During the period 1st October 1991 to 31st December 1991, did you

9 at any stage have a mortar or an artillery piece mounted on a vehicle, a

10 truck or pick-up?

11 A. We did use a small car with a small trailer to transfer a Maljutka

12 from its initial combat position to alternative combat positions.

13 Q. Apart from using a vehicle to transport weapons, did you use any

14 of your heavy weapons on a vehicle from particular positions to fire at

15 JNA as means of provocation?

16 A. No. I have to provide two answers to this question. Such weapons

17 cannot be mounted on a vehicle, to begin with. And secondly, as for our

18 part, I guarantee there were no provocations. There is not a single

19 country on this planet where you find defenders carrying out acts of

20 provocation. It's impossible.

21 Q. Could you perhaps explain your response when you said "such

22 weapons cannot be mounted on a vehicle." Why not? Can you give the

23 reasons therefor?

24 A. The ZIS gun and the mortars require a hard surface for a platform.

25 The guns, and in the case of mortars, it needs to be something softer,

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1 like the ground, to absorb the shock of firing. So that is one reason why

2 it cannot be mounted on a truck.

3 Q. What you're saying is a truck or a vehicle would not have the

4 appropriate surface to fire a mortar from, due to the fact that it would

5 not have sufficient soft surface to absorb the recoil that you get when

6 you fire such a weapon?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. How about a recoilless cannon, for instance, which does not

9 require a soft surface? Could you not use a vehicle for such a weapon?

10 A. I've never seen anything like that so far.

11 Q. Now, you said that you used a trailer to transport the Maljutka

12 from one place to the other. At any point, was this trailer parked within

13 the Old Town with the Maljutka in it for some period of time, within the

14 period 1st October 1991 to 31st December 1991?

15 A. As I've already stated, the initial combat position for the

16 Maljutka was near the Libertas Hotel at Lapad. Its alternative combat

17 position was at the Ploce Gate, to the east of the Old Town. There was no

18 need for that Maljutka to enter the Old Town at any point in time.

19 Q. Mr. Negodic, could you please let us have an idea as to what kind

20 of -- type of weapons were available to your forces positioned at Srdj.

21 Did they have mortars, artillery, or any other type of heavy weapons?

22 A. The same applies to that as to the Old Town. The fort of Srdj was

23 built by Napoleon Bonaparte, built of stone. The same applies to mortars,

24 the same explanation that I provided in relation to trucks. The defenders

25 at Srdj were carrying small arms, personal weapons, light machine-guns,

1 and a hand-held launcher as an anti-armour weapon.

2 Q. And when you say same explanation applies, what you're indicating

3 is that the ground in the fortress was not suitable for placement of

4 mortars and artillery; is that what you meant?

5 A. Yes. The fort is built of stone, and there is no way you can

6 place a mortar there, and that is the answer.

7 Q. Could you not have placed a mortar outside the fort, fortress, on

8 softer ground?

9 A. The enemy was so close that this would have been simply suicidal.

10 Q. Mr. Negodic, who controlled the fortress at Srdj, and can you give

11 your response within the time -- relevant time frames. Now, I know at

12 some stage the Croatian forces controlled Srdj, but can you give the

13 relevant time frames.

14 A. Well, the command controlled that point of resistance. I'm

15 referring to Srdj.

16 Q. No. My question to you is: When did the Croat forces control the

17 fortress at Srdj? When did they take over that position?

18 A. Immediately in October, as early as October, they were there.

19 Q. 6 December 1991 --

20 A. Of course, in relation to your first question, when the JNA attack

21 began, when they landed at Zupa, Dubrovacka and at Kupari, using the

22 support of paramilitary units from Trebinje, our forces had withdrawn to

23 the Bosanka area and then immediately afterwards to the Srdj fortress

24 area. And they stayed there since.

25 Q. And I take it when you say "since," till 6 December 1991 and

1 afterwards? Yes or no would suffice, sir.

2 A. No. Since the 23rd of October --

3 Q. No. My --

4 A. What do you mean by the 6th? Yes. Even after the 6th of

5 December, in 1992 and 1993, they were still at Srdj.

6 Q. Thank you. And who controlled Zarkovica, and could you give in

7 the context of the relevant time frames.

8 A. Prior to the withdrawal, Zarkovica had been an abandoned lookout

9 point, Belvedere. After the Croatian forces had withdrawn in the

10 direction of Dubrovnik and the fortress of Srdj, an observation post, a

11 JNA observation post was set up there. This was an observation post and

12 three combat positions; one recoilless gun, one Maljutka, and sometimes a

13 tank also.

14 Q. And when did the JNA set up this post at Zarkovica? Can you give

15 the time frame?

16 A. The 25th of October, I believe.

17 Q. Who controlled Bosanka? Can you respond in the context of the

18 relevant time frames.

19 A. To the best of my knowledge, the 22nd and the 23rd, or between the

20 23rd and the 24th, one day it was controlled by the Croatian army, and

21 after that by the JNA and their paramilitary units.

22 Q. Do you know when the JNA took control of Bosanka? Do you remember

23 the time frame?

24 A. Twenty-four hours after Zarkovica was taken, to the best of my

25 knowledge.

1 Q. Who controlled the fortress at Strincjera, and the time frame?

2 A. The Croatian army controlled Strincjera. As I said, during the

3 withdrawal from Zarkovica and Bosanka, at the same time, there was a

4 withdrawal from Strincjera.

5 Q. And after the withdrawal, did the JNA take over the fortress at

6 Strincjera?

7 A. Yes. The 6th of December, one of the axes of attack on Srdj was

8 through Strincjera. It was a combined infantry and tank armour attack.

9 Q. Do you remember when the JNA took over Strincjera? An approximate

10 time would do, sir.

11 A. I said a while ago the 24th or the 25th. Therefore, it was at

12 about that time. When Bosanka fell, Strincjera fell too.

13 Q. Can you give us some --

14 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Petrovic.

16 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I don't understand which month we

17 are talking about.

18 MS. MAHINDARATNE: The witness made it clear earlier on it was

19 October 23rd, 24th, but I'll ask it again if it's necessary, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE PARKER: That was clear to me. I think you can take it

21 that's the date.

22 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] My apologies, Your Honour. Thank

23 you.

24 MS. MAHINDARATNE:

25 Q. Mr. Negodic, could you give us some idea as to what the -- can you

1 describe the view from Zarkovica.

2 A. From Zarkovica, you can see part of Ploce, to the east of

3 Dubrovnik, the Old Town; the Old Town; half the peninsula of Lapad, facing

4 the open sea, half the peninsula. That's as much as you can see.

5 Q. Is there a direct line of vision from Zarkovica into the entire

6 Old Town?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Mr. Negodic, now, we discussed about weapons as to the existence

9 of weapons within the Old Town. Could you tell me: Were there any

10 weapons positioned in the Old Town within the period 1st October 1991 to

11 31st December 1991?

12 A. As I've already stated, there were no artillery or anti-aircraft

13 weapons in the town itself. There may have been a hunting rifle or the

14 odd pistol.

15 Q. Were there any type of military installation in the Old Town? And

16 I'm talking about perhaps ammunition depots or command post or shelters,

17 military shelters.

18 A. No. No depots, no military facilities at all.

19 Q. How about troop movement? Was there any type of troop movement,

20 noticeable troop movement within the Old Town, or concentration of

21 soldiers within the Old Town at any given time within the period 1st

22 October 1991 to 31st December 1991?

23 A. The inhabitants of Dubrovnik were well aware of the fact that

24 soldiers were banned from grouping even near let alone inside the Old

25 Town. That means there was no movement of troops inside the Old Town

1 whatsoever.

2 Q. You said that soldiers were banned from grouping even near the Old

3 Town. Could you in that context say as to what orders had you and your

4 sector perhaps received prohibiting the placing of weapons in the Old Town

5 or congregating near the Old Town?

6 A. As for manpower, you referred to troops. Of course, a gun is

7 operated by soldiers; however, this particular army had not been set up

8 properly by that time. 95 per cent of those soldiers were still wearing

9 civilian clothes. Secondly, as for the artillery, it wasn't only banned

10 for security reasons.

11 Rather, and this will require a lengthy explanation, there are

12 three basic reasons for that. As I've already said, there is no way you

13 could possibly mount a mortar on a truck or Napoleon's Srdj fortress, or a

14 ZIS gun inside the Old Town, because the entire Old Town is made of stone.

15 Secondly, the streets in the Old Town are very narrow, and had it

16 even been possible to place something there, it would have caused more

17 damage to the surrounding houses than to the enemy.

18 Thirdly, you could only point the guns at the sky if you decided

19 to fire from Dubrovnik. There is no way to target anything else but

20 perhaps the sky. There is no way you can place a gun there. There is no

21 way to introduce a gun or a mortar into the Old Town, especially we were

22 banned, as I said, for security reasons to use any weapons from inside, in

23 order to avoid the Old Town being targeted. Thank you very much.

24 Q. Sir, were you aware of the protected status of the Old Town, the

25 UNESCO status of the Old Town?

1 A. Of course I was aware of that, as were the European monitors, who,

2 from the Argentina Hotel were able to see the whole of the Old Town before

3 them, and on several occasions they went out with professionals from the

4 Institute for the Protection of Cultural Monuments and made up 40 or 45

5 reports relating to the damages done to buildings of great historical

6 importance. Now, we really did sincerely hope that not a single mine or

7 shell would target the Old Town, because we thought that the other side

8 too would value its worth. However, that was not the case.

9 Q. Sir, previously you said that 95 per cent of those soldiers were

10 still wearing civilian clothes. Did that mean that they had the freedom

11 to roam around in the Old Town with their weapons, or -- I did not get

12 your response too clearly. Could you elaborate?

13 A. It was difficult for us to even come by the weapons and ammunition

14 that we ultimately got. That was our priority. But we weren't given

15 personal weapons and uniforms along with that. That was left for a later

16 stage, better times.

17 Q. Notwithstanding if you had uniforms or not, were the personnel

18 attached to your forces banned from congregating or moving around within

19 the Old Town, by your command?

20 A. Each and every commander had received orders from the commander of

21 the town's defence to convey down the line to their subordinates to obey

22 that, and that was done, and it was controlled. We did not wish to give

23 reason, whatever -- any reason at all for shells to target the Old Town at

24 all.

25 Q. Mr. Negodic, can you please indicate what the effect is when you

1 fire a mortar or an artillery from -- on a hard surface. Can you please

2 give us some idea as to what the effect is. What happens to the weapon,

3 or what happens to those who operate the weapon?

4 A. I might run the risk of making a caricature, but it would be a

5 salto mortale, a death leap from the operator of such an artillery piece,

6 and they might be killed as well.

7 Q. That is, if I could please -- correct me if I'm wrong -- what you

8 mean is when you fire a mortar or an artillery piece on a hard surface,

9 because there is no soft surface to absorb the recoil, the gun jumps up,

10 isn't that what happens, and injures the operator?

11 A. Well, yes, of course. But I've already said that. And that was

12 true for Srdj and for the town and for the truck. And let me add once

13 more that in the Old Town, between the houses, among the houses, there was

14 more damage done from the explosion, the detonation, rather than from an

15 enemy shell. So it spreads upwards and sideways, so that the damage would

16 be greater after several shells or mines were targeted rather than an

17 enemy mortar that might hit the roof of a house, for example.

18 Q. Sir, you just said that: "And let me add once more that in the

19 Old Town, between the houses, among the houses, there was more damage done

20 from the explosion, the detonation rather than from an enemy shell." Did

21 you mean to say there was or that there would be if a mortar or an

22 artillery piece was fired from within the Old Town? Is that what you

23 meant? There was or there would be?

24 A. There would be. There would be greater damage had that occurred.

25 A detonation would cause greater damage than an enemy mine. That's what I

1 said. I did not say that there was, but that there would be greater

2 damage. In response to your question had we possibly brought in a mortar

3 into the Old Town, I explained to you and gave the explanation that that

4 would have no effect, and even if we were able to mount them on some sand

5 bags, that the damage done would be greater.

6 Q. And the entire surface of the ground of -- within the Old Town, is

7 it made of rock, hard surface?

8 A. Yes, of course. One wouldn't want to change the aspects of the

9 Old Town, and we were criticised for not having enough greenery, but we

10 want to preserve it the way it always was, in its original state. Thank

11 you.

12 Q. Now, in the context of the topography around the Old Town and the

13 height of the structures within the Old Town, was it possible to fire out

14 from within the Old Town with heavy weapons without taking the risk of the

15 projectiles impacting on its own structures?

16 JUDGE PARKER: I thought that had been adequately answered

17 earlier, Ms. Mahindaratne.

18 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I'm sorry, Your Honour. I was under the

19 impression he was addressing the hard surface aspect, but if Your Honour

20 feels there's been adequate --

21 JUDGE PARKER: I think some time ago the witness gave three

22 reasons.

23 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Very good, Your Honour. I will withdraw that

24 question. Thank you.

25 Q. Now, Mr. Negodic, did you personally visit the Old Town during the

1 period 1st October 1991 to 31st December 1991?

2 A. Yes. I went in the evening on the 6th of December, with some

3 soldiers, to help put out the fires, because several houses were burning.

4 I went in with a squad when there was the cease-fire.

5 Q. At any stage during the period 1st October 1991 to 31st December

6 1991, were there any mortars or artillery pieces positioned or firing from

7 the top of the fortresses of the Old Town? And when I say "fortresses,"

8 I'm referring to the four turrets around the walls.

9 A. Of course not. Only perhaps the gentleman on the other side

10 perhaps might think that the 200- or 300-year-old cannons up there might

11 have fired. Does that satisfy you as an answer?

12 Q. And are you referring, when you say the 200- or 300-year-old

13 cannons, that is the antique cannons which are part of the Old Town

14 fortresses?

15 A. Yes. So from a point at a greater altitude, they are visible.

16 But of course those cannons haven't fired for the past two or three

17 hundred years.

18 Q. And how about the walls around the Old Town? Were they ever used

19 to position weapons on or fire out from with either sniper rifles or

20 machine-guns or heavy weapons?

21 A. No.

22 Q. During the period October to December 1991, was there a presence

23 of international observers in the region?

24 A. Yes. And as I've already said, they were accommodated at the

25 Argentina Hotel and we went to tour the Old Town several times because the

1 Old Town wasn't only shelled on the 6th of December; it was shelled in

2 November as well. So that they would go out to assess the situation every

3 other day. From the hotel looking towards the Old Town, they looked at

4 the Maljutka firings in the Zarkovica area and in the eastern part of the

5 Old Town. So they recorded that.

6 Q. Mr. Negodic, in the course of your testimony, you referred to JNA

7 attacks carried out in October -- I'm sorry -- on 23rd and 24th of

8 October, 1991. Are those dates correct or could you indicate as to when

9 the October attacks commenced?

10 A. Do you mean the artillery portion or the infantry?

11 Q. I mean the entire JNA attack, whether it be artillery or infantry.

12 I'm referring to October 1991. I'm not referring to December 1991.

13 A. As far as I remember, the attack and the landing that took place

14 at Dubrovacka, Zupa and Kupari, there was a naval landing on the 23rd and

15 24th, between the 23rd and 24th.

16 Q. Thank you, Mr. Negodic.

17 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Your Honour, I note the time. This is a

18 convenient point to -- if -- I'm told -- unless Your Honours wish us to go

19 on.

20 JUDGE PARKER: We can break now, but before we do:

21 Mr. Negodic, can you give the Chamber an indication of the total

22 numbers of the defending force that you had in the Dubrovnik area at the

23 6th of December in 1991?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would say it might have been 400,

25 450, outside limit, including the logistics. I can't give you a precise

1 answer, but that is my assessment.

2 JUDGE PARKER: And how many of those were your artillery men?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] About 70.

4 JUDGE PARKER: And do I understand from your evidence that most of

5 these had been recruited from the ordinary inhabitants of the area?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

7 JUDGE PARKER: And very few of them were in uniform?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Was the position very different at the beginning of

10 October?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12 JUDGE PARKER: Can you give an indication of the size of your

13 defending force then?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 250, let's say.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Where did the extra numbers come from between the

16 beginning of October and the 6th of December?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were all refugees from the

18 Konavle area, Zupa, and the coastal belt, and they were put up in the

19 hotels and churches and in the basement of the hospital as well. Their

20 entire families were there and they placed themselves at our disposal.

21 JUDGE PARKER: Did reinforcements come in from outside the area

22 between beginning of October and the 6th of December?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To the best of my knowledge, no.

24 No. The Old Town, no.

25 JUDGE PARKER: I wasn't limiting that to the Old Town. I'm

1 speaking of the defending forces in the area of Dubrovnik, that is, the

2 greater Dubrovnik.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I had in mind the

4 greater Dubrovnik area.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

6 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Your Honour, before we break, in relation to

7 Your Honour's line of questions, may I be permitted just one question

8 before we break?

9 JUDGE PARKER: You certainly may, or you can take it up

10 afterwards. I just couldn't contain myself any longer.

11 MS. MAHINDARATNE:

12 Q. To a question from the Bench, you indicated that the strength of

13 your -- of the Dubrovnik defence was approximately 450 persons. Now, did

14 this include the Dubrovnik -- members of the Dubrovnik police?

15 A. No.

16 Q. So in addition to the 450 persons in the region, there were also

17 members of the Dubrovnik police?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Would you be able to give an approximate figure of how many

20 members were there?

21 A. No.

22 Q. You would not know?

23 A. I don't know.

24 Q. Thank you, Mr. Negodic.

25 MS. MAHINDARATNE: That's a convenient time, Your Honour.

1 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. We will have a break now.

2 --- Recess taken at 3.51 p.m.

3 --- On resuming at 4.18 p.m.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Ms. Mahindaratne.

5 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Q. Mr. Negodic, just before the questions from the Bench, you stated

7 that you remembered the naval landing taking place on 23rd, 24th of

8 October. Up until then, who controlled the seas around Dubrovnik?

9 A. No interpretation.

10 Q. I'm sorry?

11 A. I'm not getting the interpretation.

12 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Apparently there's no interpretation, Your

13 Honour. Perhaps ...

14 Q. Can you hear me, Mr. Negodic, in a language you understand?

15 A. Yes, I can.

16 Q. Let me repeat my question to you. You stated that you remember

17 the naval landing taking place on 23rd, 24th October 1991. Up until then,

18 who controlled the seas around Dubrovnik?

19 A. The seas around Dubrovnik were controlled by the Yugoslav navy.

20 Q. Could you then indicate what you meant by "the landing" on 23rd,

21 24th. Landing where?

22 A. In the area of Dubrovacka, Zupa, Kupari, and the former holiday

23 home or centre there.

24 Q. In the course of this particular attack, were your positions fired

25 at by land forces of the JNA?

1 A. The day before the landing there was artillery preparation, as we

2 called it. We received knowledge of that in Dubrovacka Rijeka, and at

3 Brgat two and a half thousand different types of shells and mines fell.

4 Q. And when you say the day before that, which date are you

5 indicating; 22nd of October or 23rd October, 1991?

6 A. I've already said that I'm not quite sure whether it was the 23rd

7 or the 24th. If it was the 23rd, then one day before that. If it was the

8 24th, then the day before would have been the 23rd, and in my language we

9 refer to that as artillery preparation before combined attack with the

10 landing that is launched.

11 Q. And could you indicate from which positions, which JNA positions

12 did they fire? To which of the positions?

13 A. It fired at the area, the general area. There was no specific

14 target, just the general area, the area it has to cross en route to the

15 town of Dubrovnik.

16 JUDGE PARKER: There seems to be a problem with the flow of

17 interpretation, I'm told. I don't know where that is happening.

18 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I think that's probably what my learned friend

19 just indicated to me from --

20 THE INTERPRETER: Can you hear the English booth? Can you hear

21 the English channel?

22 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I tried to tell you that there was

23 no transcript. What was being said wasn't being recorded on the LiveNote.

24 And that's being going on, Your Honour, now, for several minutes.

25 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I'm sorry. I didn't notice this, Your Honour.

1 JUDGE PARKER: Well, it's gone wrong with me. I cannot get the

2 English language channel at all. I can't even get my equipment to move

3 off Channel 0 now.

4 THE INTERPRETER: Can you hear the English interpretation?

5 MR. WEINER: I think the transcript is being updated right now.

6 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I'm not Mr. Weiner.

7 JUDGE PARKER: You've misled us altogether. We thought it had to

8 be Mr. Weiner. I gather we simply must wait a little time.

9 I still cannot change my -- we're getting business now. Yes.

10 Hopefully we will all be able to hear in a language of our choice. Thank

11 you. And transcript is flowing. If you could carry on.

12 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Q. Mr. Negodic, I'm going to repeat one of those questions again

14 because it's possible that it has not been recorded. Could you indicate

15 as to which JNA positions fired at which Croat positions in the -- during

16 the course of the attack on 23rd, 24th October 1991.

17 A. As I have already stated, this was repeated on the old town, the

18 positions of the artillery were not fired at, but the whole region was

19 fired at during this artillery preparation. So the entire area was

20 targeted; Dubrovacka, Zupa, Kupari, Dubac and Brgat, that whole general

21 area, and that was customary. After that, we saw the landing and the

22 takeover of the territory and the shelling, as I have already said, when

23 about two and a half thousand shells and mines fell on the town. Then the

24 landing took place. Our forces withdrew to Brgat and then to Bosanka and

25 then to Srdj and the general Dubrovnik greater area.

1 Q. When you say so many shells fell on the town, what you mean is the

2 wider area of the Dubrovnik municipality?

3 A. Yes. I mean greater Dubrovnik, that is to say, the broad area

4 around Dubrovnik, and then I gave you the names of the exact positions:

5 Brgat, Bosanka, Dubac, and the broader region around the Dubrovacka-Zupa

6 area.

7 Q. And you went on to say your forces withdrew to Brgat and then to

8 Bosanka and then to Srdj. So I take it then during this attack at this

9 particular stage your forces had control over Bosanka and the other two

10 places that you indicated.

11 A. Yes. Under control, but there were no inhabitants or any army,

12 any soldiers, because there was no purpose for them being there.

13 Q. Can you indicate as to from which JNA positions the fire came?

14 Just a general idea would suffice. Because you indicated the Croat

15 positions to which the fire came into, but I'm now asking what JNA

16 positions fired.

17 A. They opened fire from the Konavle region, with far-reaching

18 artillery pieces, long-range artillery pieces, and from Herzegovina, the

19 mortars and Howitzers were used.

20 Q. In the course of this attack, of course you already indicated and

21 I'm going to ask you again: Was the Old Town shelled?

22 A. No, not at the beginning. No.

23 Q. Was it shelled at any stage during the course of the attack?

24 A. When they took over Zarkovica, that's when two mortar mines or

25 shells fell within the walls of the Old Town. Those were the first.

1 Q. And when did they take Zarkovica?

2 A. On the 25th, roughly. I can't be exact. Because it's been 13

3 years since then. So even if I were a computer, I couldn't keep track of

4 it all. Thank you.

5 Q. I appreciate that, Mr. Negodic [Realtime transcript read in error

6 "Negotic"]. How did you learn of the shelling of the Old Town during this

7 period? Did you observe it or who informed you that the Old Town was

8 shelled during the October attack?

9 A. I apologise, but could you please repeat your question? Before

10 that, may I ask Their Honours to put my surname right. My name is

11 Negodic, with a "D" and not Negotic with a "T." Thank you.

12 N-E-G-O-D-I-C. Thank you. And could you please repeat the question.

13 JUDGE PARKER: And before we do, just to reassure you,

14 Mr. Negodic, if you notice where that misspelling occurs, there is a

15 little arrow head after it. That is showing that they realise that

16 something has to be corrected there, and they were aware of it before you

17 mentioned it. We know who you are. I hope you're not troubled by that.

18 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I will repeat my question.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. I wasn't aware of that.

20 Thank you, Your Honour.

21 MS. MAHINDARATNE:

22 Q. My question to you was, Mr. Negodic: How did you learn that the

23 Old Town was shelled during the October attack? Did you observe it

24 yourself or how were you informed of this? As in, were there protests

25 that you're aware of? How did you learn of it?

1 A. No, I didn't see it myself. The command of the town was informed.

2 And it was recorded by the European observers, and the people from the

3 Institute for the Protection of Cultural Monuments. They took note of the

4 exact locations where they fell. That was true for that day and all the

5 other dates afterwards, subsequent to that.

6 Q. During the course of the October attack, were those positions that

7 we looked at on your map, on those two maps, which were in close proximity

8 to the Old Town but outside the Old Town, were those positions active or

9 were they deployed? And I'm referring to the positions at Lazareti.

10 A. Not in October. They weren't active in the month of October.

11 Q. How about the position just north of the Old Town, the

12 anti-aircraft weapon? Was that position deployed?

13 A. No, as far as I know. It is an anti-aircraft device, and there

14 was no need to resort to it, to use it, because there were no airborne

15 attacks.

16 Q. And the positions at Bogisica Park, was that position deployed?

17 A. It was active for one day in November 1991.

18 Q. The position at Gradac Park, was that active?

19 A. No. No.

20 Q. Did your forces respond to the JNA attack?

21 A. The attack was still being launched against Zarkovica at that

22 time. Our forces responded only when the shells started falling on the

23 town. There were just some skirmishes with light machine-guns and the

24 like, rifles, et cetera.

25 Q. And if -- when your forces did respond, from which positions did

1 they respond, and to which JNA positions? Just a general idea would

2 suffice. We don't have to go into details.

3 A. Referring to control of Zarkovica, during the morning, our units

4 remained at Bosanka. Following the shelling of the village of Bosanka,

5 from a number of different directions they withdrew to the fortress of

6 Srdj. If you looked at the map, you could see that the area just

7 underneath Srdj was mined where the road is. One section was not mined,

8 there was no minefield, and in one of the sections and that was left open

9 so that the men could retreat towards the town of Dubrovnik itself through

10 that area.

11 Q. Going into the operations in November, do you remember when the

12 November JNA operations commenced?

13 A. On the 3rd of November. The 3rd of November, that's when the

14 operations commenced, and the end came with the cease-fire that was signed

15 on the 8th of November. In the meantime, there were several rounds of

16 talks. A team of negotiators from the town of Dubrovnik, the ECMM, they

17 both went to the Boka military naval sector to negotiate. On behalf of

18 the Boka military naval sector there was Sofronije Jeremic. He made an

19 announcement offering --

20 Q. Mr. Negodic, I'm sorry to interrupt you. But my question to you

21 is with regard to the time frame of the operations. Do you recall a JNA

22 operation being carried out in the period 8th November to 13th November?

23 A. Yes. The shelling of the entire area of the town of Dubrovnik.

24 Q. That is the attack I'm talking about. When did that attack

25 commence? I mentioned the date 8th November. Is that correct?

1 A. Until the 8th of November. The attack -- or rather, the shelling

2 of the general town area lasted from the 3rd until the 8th of November.

3 Q. I just asked you a question as to whether you remember. My

4 question was: Do you recall a JNA operation being carried out in the

5 period 8th November to 13th November? Were there any operations between

6 this period, 8 November to 13th November?

7 A. Well, all right. Perhaps we've been talking at cross-purposes.

8 You are entirely right. It's been so many years. The 8th, the 13th, I'm

9 getting all these dates confused, I'm afraid. You are entirely right,

10 however, and thank you for pointing that out to me.

11 Not from the 3rd to the 8th, but rather from the 8th to the 13th.

12 I apologise, and thank you for setting the record straight there.

13 Q. That's all right, Mr. Negodic. Could you just indicate as to when

14 exactly that operation commenced. I'm not asking for the time, but the

15 date. Is the 8th November the correct date?

16 A. Yes.

17 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe this is an

18 exaggeration. I believe this is further than anyone should be allowed to

19 go. We have tried to be very patient and we've tried not to intervene,

20 but my learned friend and colleague is obviously leading the witness. We

21 just let it be on one or two occasions, but we think she is now

22 overstepping the mark, and could the Trial Chamber please step in in order

23 to prevent this from continuing.

24 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Your Honour, I withdraw the question.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

1 MS. MAHINDARATNE:

2 Q. Could you describe the operation as you remember it. What Croat

3 positions were attacked from which JNA positions?

4 A. As I said a while ago, no specific combat positions in the

5 Dubrovnik area were being targeted. Rather, there was continuous

6 targeting of the entire town area; hotels, churches, hospitals, and so on

7 and so forth, including the Old Town itself.

8 Q. And who initiated this attack? Was it either of your units or

9 individual members fired to provoke the JNA units, or did your forces

10 initiate the attack, or was it initiated by the JNA?

11 A. The attack was initiated by the JNA, just like they had started

12 the attack in the area of Konavle, Zupa, Brgat, Zarkovica, and on from

13 there. So that's my answer to your question.

14 Q. When this attack was going on, at least in the course of this

15 attack at some stage did your forces at this stage have control of

16 Bosanka?

17 A. On the 6th of December, no.

18 Q. Mr. Negodic, I'm talking about November. I'm talking about the

19 operations which went on in November. I'm asking you: During this

20 period, did your forces have control of Bosanka?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Now, you indicated that on the 23rd, 24th, your forces had control

23 of Bosanka. When did your forces lose control of Bosanka? Would you be

24 able to remember? Was it in the course of this particular attack or a

25 previous attack or subsequent attack?

1 A. As far as I know, it was just after the 25th of October, because

2 by the 25th of October, we no longer held Bosanka under our control.

3 Q. In the course of the November attack, did your forces respond?

4 A. Yes. In the area of Bosanka, in the Zarkovica area, in the Dubac

5 area, which is the eastern approach to Dubrovnik, and the north-west

6 approach, Sustjepan.

7 Q. And from which Croat positions was fire sent out from? Where did

8 you fire? Can you identify the Croat positions which were active during

9 this particular operation?

10 A. 16 shells from the Lazareti area to the eastern approach to the

11 Old Town from Dubac, an infantry attack. From the Solitudo camp, camping

12 site, to the --

13 Q. I'm sorry to interrupt you, but you said 16 shells from the

14 Lazareti area to the eastern approach to the Old Town from Dubac. Could

15 you be a little bit more specific. It isn't clear as to are you saying

16 that your position at Lazareti fired 16 shells; and if so, to where? Can

17 we clarify that first, please.

18 A. The infantry attack begins in this section of the town, from the

19 direction of Dubac. This is the old approach route that is no longer fit

20 for traffic. This position was used for that purpose. Therefore, the

21 infantry headed that way, taking the old road from Dubac towards the

22 town. 16 shells were fired on those men.

23 Q. So the infantry you're referring to is the JNA infantry?

24 A. Of course.

25 Q. And then what other Croat positions fired, and to where?

1 A. The 120- and 82-millimetre mortars from the combat positions to

2 the north-western approach, the village of Sustjepan, and the slopes of

3 the hill that lies between Bosanka and Zarkovica.

4 Q. And what are the positions, Croat positions fired, or was it only

5 these two, or were there other positions?

6 A. Not at that time.

7 Q. In the course of this attack, was the Old Town shelled?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did you personally observe this shelling of the Old Town?

10 A. You could see them firing and there was confirmation from the

11 other side. This was something we couldn't see from our positions at

12 Lapad. So what I have in mind is the eastern section of the town. From

13 there, you can see clearly the places where the shells were landing,

14 especially the ECMM, who were monitoring the trajectories of Maljutka

15 projectiles on the front end of the Old Town and the harbour, where some

16 ships were on fire.

17 Q. And did you have confirmation later on that the Old Town was in

18 fact shelled during the course of this attack?

19 A. Yes. We received a confirmation in writing that 45 places of

20 worship were either destroyed or damaged, half destroyed. These documents

21 are still in the archive and I believe the ECMM probably still have the

22 recordings and the related documents, because they carried an on-site

23 investigation straight afterwards.

24 Q. With what weapons was the Old Town shelled? Would you be able to

25 indicate whether they were mortar shelling or artillery, Maljutka,

1 cannons, so on and so forth?

2 A. The general area of Dubrovnik town was shelled.

3 Q. No -- Old Town. With what weapons was the Old Town shelled?

4 Would you know?

5 A. The Old Town, the Old Town was shelled. 82- and 100-millimetre

6 mortars were used. 122-millimetre Howitzers, sporadic tank fire from the

7 Zarkovica area, and continually, the recoilless guns and the Maljutkas.

8 Q. Were there any civilian casualties in the course of this attack on

9 the side of the -- on the territory controlled by the Croatian forces?

10 A. No. Just the wounded. There were civilian casualties in the

11 period between the 8th and 13th November. Again, there were 10 or 11

12 civilian casualties, and about 80 wounded. Some were seriously wounded

13 and some were lightly wounded.

14 Q. Did your forces suffer any losses?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Mr. Negodic, in both the two incidents that I referred to, that

17 is, the October attack and the November attack, was there any form of

18 outgoing fire from the Old Town?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Now, you indicated with regard to the November attack that the

21 position at Lazareti was active. Apart from that, were there any

22 positions around Old Town, those positions you identified earlier on as

23 being in close proximity to the Old Town, active during the attack of

24 November?

25 A. No other active positions. There was no firing from any of the

1 positions at that time.

2 Q. What about the anti-aircraft weapons' position just to the north

3 of the Old Town or its alternate position at the Gradac Park? Were those

4 positions deployed or active during the course of the November attack?

5 A. No.

6 Q. You said that one day in November, your -- mortar position in

7 Bogisica Park was active. Was it during the course of the attack between

8 the period 8th November to 13th November that Bogisica Park was used by

9 your forces?

10 A. I can't specify the date, but it was in the period between the 8th

11 and 13th. I can't give you the exact date, though.

12 Q. And from that position, do you know - and I'm referring to

13 Bogisica Park - which JNA position was targeted?

14 A. The positions at Zarkovica and at Bosanka.

15 [Prosecution counsel confer]

16 MS. MAHINDARATNE:

17 Q. Mr. Negodic, now, you indicated that the Bogisica Park position

18 was used during the November attack. The anti-aircraft weapon's position

19 which we saw on the map which reflected positions as at 6 December 1991,

20 was that position deployed in November? Was a weapon in that location in

21 November 1991? I'm not asking whether it fired, but was that position

22 there? The weapon, was it there?

23 A. I think so, yes.

24 Q. And --

25 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I beg your pardon, Your Honour.

1 [Prosecution counsel confer]

2 MS. MAHINDARATNE:

3 Q. Now, in the course of the attack, the two attacks in October and

4 November, did any units or soldiers belonging to your forces fire, either

5 intentionally or erroneously, at the Old Town?

6 A. No, of course not.

7 Q. In the course of the conflict, have you ever experienced a

8 situation where a Croat shell had erroneously impacted on the Old Town?

9 For example, just a hypothetical situation, if I may illustrate: A shell

10 fired from Bogisica to Zarkovica, falling short on the Old Town. Have you

11 ever experienced that type of situation?

12 A. No. The Old Town was not in the line of firing from the combat

13 position at Bogisica Park. By your leave: The naked eye can monitor the

14 falling of each single shell from that combat position.

15 Q. In November, when the position at Bogisica Park was used, which

16 JNA targets or which JNA positions were targeted from there?

17 A. As I said a while ago, there is no specific firing by the JNA or

18 the paramilitary units on any targets or any positions of the Croatian

19 army in the broader Dubrovnik area.

20 Q. Mr. Negodic --

21 A. Throughout --

22 Q. -- my question to you was: From Bogisica Park, which JNA position

23 was targeted on that particular day when the position was active?

24 A. Well, I believe I've already said: From the combat position at

25 Bogisica Park, the area between Zarkovica and Bosanka was targeted.

1 Q. And what was position between the area between Zarkovica and

2 Bosanka? Were there JNA positions between this area?

3 A. Between Zarkovica and Bosanka, there is a road that was being used

4 on a daily basis for supplies. JNA weapons were being supplied down that

5 road.

6 Q. Mr. Negodic, I'm moving on to the incident of the 6th December

7 attack. Do you remember at what time the attack on 6 December commenced?

8 An approximate time would do if you don't remember the exact time.

9 A. I can't be very specific about the time, but it was in the early

10 morning. Daybreak, thereabouts; 7.00.

11 Q. What positions were -- what Croatian positions were attacked

12 first, and from where?

13 A. I repeat: There was no attack against the firing positions of any

14 kind; no infantry attack, no artillery attack, by the JNA or the

15 paramilitary units. The broader town area is what was being targeted.

16 Q. Was Srdj targeted in the course of this attack?

17 A. Yes, of course.

18 Q. And you said in addition to that, the broader area of the

19 Dubrovnik municipality was also targeted.

20 A. Yes, that's precisely what I said.

21 Q. You already indicated in relation to the map the Croatian

22 positions which fired on that day in response and the JNA targets, so I

23 won't go into that. But in the course of this -- in the course of this

24 attack, was the Old Town shelled?

25 A. Yes. Throughout the day.

1 Q. Where were -- I'm sorry. I withdraw that. Can you indicate as to

2 with what weaponry the attack was conducted by the JNA? And in your

3 response, could you also include as to with what weapons the Old Town was

4 shelled.

5 A. The broader town area was shelled using 82- and 120-millimetre

6 mortars, 122-millimetre Howitzers, multiple rocket launcher, 122

7 millimetres again, 130-millimetre guns, a recoilless gun, a Maljutka, and

8 a tank. That applies to the entire town area. The Old Town,

9 specifically, was shelled by 82- and 120-millimetre Maljutka recoilless

10 gun, sporadically from the Zarkovica firing position in the direction of

11 Bosanka, a tank, and one section of the Old Town was shelled by a

12 122-millimetre Howitzer. That's facing the sea.

13 Q. In the course of this --

14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for counsel.

15 MS. MAHINDARATNE:

16 Q. In the course of this attack, were any of your positions hit by

17 the JNA projectiles? Did they manage to hit your positions?

18 A. Yes. Some of our men were wounded, but none were killed. The

19 positions -- the position at which I was, which was also an observation

20 post, in order to confirm what I've said over and over, that the broader

21 area was being targeted, regardless of specific targets, surrounding my

22 combat position in a radius of 500 metres, not a single shell landed

23 throughout the day. Thank you.

24 Q. Sir, with regard to my question about the weapons with which you

25 targeted the Old Town [sic], your response is: It was shelled by 82- and

1 122-millimetre --

2 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I beg your pardon.

3 [Prosecution counsel confer]

4 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Your Honour, there's a transcript error. The

5 question has been taken down as: With regard to my question about the

6 weapons with which you targeted the Old Town. The question should be with

7 which the Old Town was targeted.

8 JUDGE PARKER: And is there something wrongly recorded in the

9 answer?

10 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No, Your Honour. It's a question that has been

11 recorded incorrectly.

12 JUDGE PARKER: If you would hear me. I'm going on from that to

13 another problem. There's mention of 82- and 122-millimetre Maljutka

14 recoilless gun, as though that's one type of weapon. That's a confusing

15 of armaments.

16 MS. MAHINDARATNE: That's what I was getting at, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE PARKER: That's in the answer.

18 MS. MAHINDARATNE: That was going to be my question as to --

19 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

20 MS. MAHINDARATNE:

21 Q. Your response with regard to 82- and 122-millimetre Maljutka,

22 could you be more specific? What did you mean by 82 millimetre, 122

23 Maljutka? Can you be more specific, please.

24 A. Thank you. If the error was mine, I'll try to correct it now. An

25 82-millimetre mortar, 120-millimetre mortar, a Maljutka, a recoilless gun,

1 a tank, and a Howitzer.

2 Q. And are these the weapons with which the Old Town was attacked?

3 Is that what you're saying, sir?

4 A. These are weapons that were used to attack the Old Town.

5 Q. When you say "Old Town," you mean the Old Town or also the wider

6 area of -- no. I withdraw that. I'm sorry.

7 Could you be -- could you describe the attack on Srdj, please.

8 Was there an infantry attack in addition to firing with heavy weapons?

9 A. Yes. There was a combined attack, an infantry and tank attack

10 from two directions. One combined attack came from the direction of

11 Bosanka Srdj, and the other from the direction of Strincjera Srdj.

12 Q. Thank you. During the course of this attack, was there any firing

13 out of the Old Town or military activity within the Old Town?

14 A. As I have already stated, there was no military unit at all in the

15 Old Town, within the ramparts of the Old Town, none at all.

16 Q. Did you personally observe the shelling of the Old Town on 6

17 December 1991?

18 A. You can see just the Maljutka shell from -- going towards the Old

19 Town, the trajectory, from Zarkovica. You can hear the sound and you can

20 see smoke and fire, nothing else, no other specific details with respect

21 to the 6th of December, from my part and from where I was.

22 Q. Could you describe the shelling of the Old Town. Was it a

23 continuous shelling, a sustained continuous shelling, or sporadic?

24 A. It was continuous, and through our listening-in devices, our

25 intercepts, there were two orders given, issued by the JNA. One order was

1 when the soldier asked his captain: Captain, where am I to target? And I

2 apologise to the Court in advance, because I have to say quite literally

3 and translate quite literally what the captain answered the soldier. He

4 said: You motherfucker. Everything is a target within the Old Town and

5 its walls.

6 So that is one instance and proof that no military targets were

7 being targeted but that the overall territory of the town of Dubrovnik was

8 being targeted. Thank you.

9 Q. And, sir, where did you listen to this conversation? Did you

10 personally listen to this intercepted conversation?

11 A. Yes, and it was in the immediate vicinity of my combat position,

12 in the house that we called Solidarnost, Solidarity House. That's where

13 we tapped in.

14 Q. So in that place, the house that you just mentioned, there was an

15 intercepting device established for your forces?

16 A. Yes. It is a civilian house. A radio ham was the proprietor of

17 the house, and during the 6th of December, he had quite a lot of contacts

18 with his colleagues from Bosnia-Herzegovina and Serbia, other radio hams

19 over there. I'm sorry. I meant Montenegro and Serbia. I apologise.

20 Q. Apart from this particular intercepted message, were there any

21 other intercepted conversations that you could recall?

22 A. Well, I know of just one other instance. I wasn't there the whole

23 time, there were probably more. But I know of just one other, and that

24 was -- they said: And now the Libertas Hotel. That was the only concrete

25 order of something being targeted. It wasn't a combat position this time

1 either. It was a hotel with 700 refugees there. And you could follow all

2 that. And then we saw what Zarkovica was used for, as an observation

3 post, which was to guide JNA fire and the fire of the paramilitaries to

4 correct their fire, and that was the first time that this was done at the

5 Libertas Hotel, which was in front of my combat position, some 600 to 700

6 metres away. When the first shells start falling on the school, the Lero

7 Hotel, he would correct them and revert them back to the sports hall, and

8 he would withdraw 300 to 400 metres and then target the Libertas Hotel and

9 set fire to it.

10 So that was the only concrete operation from the Zarkovica

11 observation post. That was its principal object. So it wasn't at my

12 combat position, which was 700 metres from the Libertas Hotel, and which

13 can be seen. After 170 shells had been shot, just as I can see their

14 observation post directly, so also from that observation post they can see

15 me and my combat position. They can see it just like you can see it in

16 the palm of your hand, with binoculars. And in a radius of 500 metres

17 throughout that day, not a single shell fell near my combat position,

18 which was yet further proof that it wasn't a military target that was

19 being shot but the overall greater Dubrovnik area with all the attendant

20 destruction that that involved.

21 Q. Now, sir, you just testified -- you just stated that you observed

22 firing from a JNA position being corrected and then being directed to the

23 intended target. That's what you just -- to wrap up what you just said.

24 A. Yes, that's right.

25 Q. Were there any JNA naval forces involved in this attack?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did you observe it or were you informed of it?

3 A. Informed, because from my combat position, I can't see the sea.

4 So I was sent a report from the other positions so that the combat

5 position, the President Hotel, and the Maljutka combat position, that they

6 must be withdrawn to the hotel, because there was no appropriate shelter.

7 There was just a makeshift shelter, a natural one. And I did not want my

8 men to be jeopardised for just one Maljutka being fired at just one of the

9 vessels. Thank you.

10 Q. So what you indicate is the information that you received about

11 JNA naval forces firing is on the western end of Dubrovnik, that is, on

12 the area between Lapad and Kolocep island?

13 A. I couldn't see them, but I could hear them, because it's a very

14 specific sound, the sound of a cannon, and it can be differentiated

15 from --

16 Q. [Previous translation continues]...

17 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Would my friend allow the witness

18 to answer her question, please. Thank you, Your Honour.

19 MS. MAHINDARATNE:

20 Q. My question was a different -- this is not the answer to my

21 question, Your Honour. That's why I interrupted.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Perhaps you could continue with your answer,

23 Mr. Negodic. You were describing the different sound of naval weaponry.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, precisely. And let me give you

25 an example. Bofors has a specific sound, or rather, rate of fire,

1 especially when we can all feel that this is coming from the sea. So

2 these were Bofors, and there was nobody else that could have done that

3 firing but from the ship. And this fire came at the first points in town.

4 For example, the Belvedere Hotel, right on the edge, and it ended up

5 across Pile way, which means the western entrance to the Old Town, as well

6 as Boninovo, the promenade and the cemetery. And there would be no

7 purpose in targeting Lapad, because there are very high cliffs there,

8 precipitous cliffs. It was only the Hotel Palace area that becomes

9 interesting when you have a series of hotels where the refugees were

10 accommodated, according to the capacities of each of these hotels. So

11 that's where they emptied their cannons and fired their guns, and above

12 Gruz in the village of Nuncijata. So in each of these attacks by the

13 ships, or rather, their return, all the ammunition from the vessels would

14 be fired at and used up targeting the Belvedere Hotel. And after that,

15 they would go back to base in the Bay of Kotor. Thank you.

16 MS. MAHINDARATNE:

17 Q. On the issue of the Kolocep island, you indicated when we

18 discussed the maps that in the second map, the anti-aircraft weapon

19 indicated in the previous map at Hotel President in Lapad had been moved

20 to Kolocep island in 1992. I think you mentioned something to that

21 effect. And that that is why in the second map the weapon was not

22 indicated. Now, could you --

23 A. May I be allowed --

24 Q. May I finish my question to you, sir. My question was: When was

25 the anti-aircraft weapon moved to the Kolocep island?

1 A. I didn't want this to go down in the record. You mentioned

2 Maljutka as being an anti-aircraft weapon, whereas Maljutka is an

3 anti-armour weapon. So I don't want that to be entered into the record in

4 that way.

5 Q. I'm sorry. I have not used the word Maljutka, I have just said --

6 I beg your pardon. The record should read not anti-aircraft weapon, but

7 Maljutka. You're right, sir. My question would be: When was the

8 Maljutka that was at Hotel President in Lapad moved to Kolocep island?

9 A. Every day, there were two ships coming from the Bay of Kotor to

10 make up a logistics support, logistic reinforcement, for the forces and

11 they would go to the Bay of Zaton and the Bay of Slano, on the coast. As

12 soon as we erected the Maljutka at that position -- now, who reported this

13 and why, I can't tell you. I don't know. But on that same morning, the

14 ships of the navy, the Yugoslav navy, approached the island of Kolocep.

15 Q. Mr. Negodic, may I just interrupt you, sir. My question to you

16 was: When was this weapon moved to Kolocep? Are you in a position to

17 give me a time frame? That's all.

18 A. Well, that was the second half of December, roughly.

19 Q. Thank you. And were there Croat weapons positioned in the island

20 of Kolocep as at 6 December 1991?

21 A. Sidearms, the sidearms that were carried by the inhabitants from

22 the island of Kolocep, that is true for Sipan, Lopud and Mljet, their

23 personal weapons. And we transported this materiel to the islands. And

24 the alternative place for the recoilless gun was used so that we could

25 come by ships in that channel, so that they cannot escape the range, which

1 we didn't have with either of these two weapons if we just target from one

2 side.

3 Q. Mr. Negodic, could you just indicate, as at 6 December 1991 were

4 there heavy weapons on this island? A yes or no answer would suffice.

5 A. If you're thinking of Maljutka, yes. No, on the 6th of December,

6 nothing. On the 6th of December there was no heavy weaponry on any of the

7 islands.

8 Q. Thank you. During the course of the 6th of December attack, what

9 was the situation with your ammunition supply? Did you have adequate

10 supply or were you in shortage?

11 A. We procured our ammunition via the islands. Ammunition was

12 brought in via the islands, the island of Mljet, Lopud, Sipan, Lopud,

13 Kolocep, and the Lapad beach, and it was brought in with speedboats.

14 Q. On 6 December was there delivery of ammunition? I'm asking about

15 the date 6 December 1991. Did you have delivery of ammunition on 6

16 December?

17 A. No.

18 Q. As such, what was the situation with regard to -- in terms of

19 limitation of the supply of ammunition to you, since there was no

20 delivery? Was there a limitation or did you have an adequate supply?

21 That's what my question is.

22 A. We weren't able to have continuous delivery throughout all that

23 time, and we of course didn't have an adequate supply. So the question

24 was how long we had to make do with the supplies we had.

25 Q. Mr. Negodic, on 6 December 1991, at any stage, either in early

1 morning or perhaps around midnight on 5th December 1991, did any of your

2 units or any individual members initiate an attack by firing at Zarkovica?

3 Or did they fire to provoke an attack from the JNA? I'm talking about 6

4 December 1991. What I'm asking is: Prior to the JNA attack, did your

5 forces either fire by way of provocation or did they initiate an attack?

6 And I'm asking you with regard to towards midnight on 5th December 1991 or

7 the early hours of 6 December.

8 A. No.

9 Q. Was there any such firing from Srdj towards Zarkovica around that

10 time frame, that is, midnight of 5th December or early hours of 6

11 December, prior to the JNA attack?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Can you think of any military advantage that could accrue to the

14 Croat forces to initiate an attack either from or within or outside the

15 Old Town from the wider area of the Dubrovnik region, any military

16 advantage that would accrue to the Croat forces to initiate an attack?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Did you visit the Old Town after the 6th December attack? I think

19 you previously said that in fact on the 6 December itself you did visit

20 the Old Town and put out fires.

21 A. Yes, that's right. In the evening hours.

22 Q. What did you observe? Did you -- can you give us some idea as to

23 what the damage was like? Did you observe substantial damage, or what was

24 it like?

25 A. What I was able to observe myself was the Stradun, the main

1 street, and two side streets parallel, running parallel to the Stradun, I

2 saw five or six houses burning. However, at night, you couldn't see that

3 any more. You could just see the light given off by the fire itself.

4 Q. Did you visit the Old Town during day time after this attack, in

5 the immediate aftermath of the attack?

6 A. No.

7 Q. So it was only that one visit in the night of the 6th December

8 that you had?

9 A. Yes, that's right.

10 Q. Did you observe any spent ammunition, any unexploded shells in the

11 Old Town when you visited on 6th?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Mr. Negodic -- yes, go ahead, please.

14 A. No, I did not see that. Now, whether the European observers did

15 the next day -- yes, the European observers saw that the next day and they

16 recorded it. Thank you.

17 JUDGE PARKER: Is that a convenient time, do you think?

18 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE PARKER: We'll have a break.

20 --- Recess taken at 5.29 p.m.

21 --- On resuming at 6.03 p.m.

22 JUDGE PARKER: I'm sorry at the delayed start. Apparently we've

23 been overworking the machinery and it's breaking down. I hope that

24 doesn't spread to counsel.

25 Yes, Ms. Mahindaratne.

1 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Q. Mr. Negodic, did the Dubrovnik defence force have naval forces?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Going back to the attack of the 6th December 1991, on 6 December

5 1991, what was the likelihood that the Croat shell may have erroneously

6 fallen into the Old Town, either by falling short --

7 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Your Honour, I notice the transcript is not

8 being taken down.

9 JUDGE PARKER: I'm sorry. It can't happen. We're running without

10 running transcript, LiveNote. There will be a record produced, we hope,

11 on Monday.

12 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Very well, Your Honour.

13 Q. Mr. Negodic, let me repeat my question to you. On 6 December

14 1991, what was the likelihood that a Croat shell, projectile, fired from

15 one of your positions, either an artillery or a mortar position or the

16 Dubrovnik defence force or an anti-aircraft weapons position, could have

17 fallen within the walls of the Old Town erroneously?

18 A. There could not have been an error like that. As I said a while

19 ago, the shells would simply not be flying over the Old Town at all, not

20 with regard to positions that were actually targeted on the 6th of

21 December.

22 Q. What was the possibility that any of the projectiles from your

23 weapons aimed at Srdj? You said you were firing at Srdj against the JNA

24 attack on Srdj. What was the possibility that one of those projectiles

25 could have fallen into the Old Town erroneously? Was there a

1 possibility?

2 A. No possibility at all for anything like that to happen, because

3 the trajectory for Srdj would not have been over Dubrovnik but rather

4 towards the land behind it.

5 Q. When you say "over Dubrovnik," did you intend to say over the Old

6 Town?

7 A. In the direction of the Old Town and also the broader Dubrovnik

8 area. Everything is directed towards the territory behind Dubrovnik. The

9 Old Town and there is Srdj behind it in terms of targeting.

10 Q. How about those positions that fired at Zarkovica? Would the

11 projectiles have not gone over the Old Town?

12 A. If I understand you correctly, the missiles being fired from

13 Zarkovica, is that what you have in mind?

14 Q. No. I'm talking about from Croatian positions, the missiles fired

15 towards Zarkovica. Could those projectiles have fallen into the Old Town

16 erroneously?

17 A. No.

18 Q. What was the likelihood that any of your units or individuals

19 could have fired into the Old Town intentionally?

20 A. There is no likelihood at all of that happening. I don't know

21 what possible reason a Croatian soldier could have had to target his own

22 Old Town.

23 Q. Did you order any of your units to fire at the Old Town? And bear

24 with me for asking you that question.

25 A. No.

1 Q. How is it that, notwithstanding the military superiority of the

2 JNA which you spoke of, in terms of weaponry, personnel, and ammunition,

3 the Dubrovnik defence forces succeeded in holding them back from entering

4 the wider city of Dubrovnik?

5 A. That's a difficult question. I will do my best to answer it,

6 nevertheless. The town of Dubrovnik itself, and the same applies to the

7 Old Town, in 90 per cent of the cases, is built in stone, so that hostile

8 missiles of any kind would not have the same effect on that stone as it

9 would have on brick, for example. Probably one of the reasons is the

10 absence of motive on the part of some groups that had no motive to attack

11 the town of Dubrovnik. I'll provide one example: The Cetinje area, the

12 Republic of Montenegro. They were not in favour of this war, of this

13 aggression, of this destruction but this was amply made up for by people

14 from the area of Niksic and Bijelo Polje, for example.

15 According to some calculations -- I'm not exactly qualified to

16 speak about this, but I was present when experts carried out an

17 assessment. In order to enter the town of Dubrovnik, if there was street

18 fighting, if it came to street fighting, the aggressor would suffer at

19 least 4.000 to 5.000 casualties. I hope this is a sufficient answer for

20 you.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 A. [In English] Thank you.

23 Q. In relation to the 6 December 1991 attack, did you see evidence to

24 indicate that the attack on Srdj, the wider area of Dubrovnik, and the Old

25 Town was preplanned?

1 A. [Interpretation] Yes. Everything points to that conclusion.

2 Q. And can you articulate as to what "everything" is; what are those

3 factors?

4 A. Well, between the 8th and 13th of November, we suffered systematic

5 shelling of the town, regardless of specific targets. And then also the

6 6th of December, plus the evidence that I spoke about in terms of

7 intercepts pointing to the fact that the Old Town itself was being

8 targeted. This indicates that this was no war between two military

9 forces, but rather that the objective was to carry out acts of systematic

10 destruction, so that it would be easier later on to enter the town itself.

11 Q. So my question was: What were the factors which indicated that it

12 was preplanned, not as to whether the targets they fired at were

13 deliberately targeted, but what were the factors which indicated there was

14 a plan, that it was preplanned? Are you in a position to speak about it?

15 If not, please indicate so.

16 A. Well, I can't be sure whether the enemy had a plan or not. A

17 while ago, when you asked me in relation to the period between the 8th and

18 13th, I forgot to mention that two planes, two times a plane was used to

19 carry out shelling. It was not a plane taking off, but rather, once Srdj

20 was targeted and the TV tower was half demolished. Those pilots on that

21 plane must have been given orders to do that. They certainly didn't do

22 that of their own accord. What I'm trying to say is: If there are acts

23 of systematic destruction in the close town area, using artillery of

24 different kinds, why do you think they should have a special plan to

25 target Dubrovnik at all?

1 Q. You mentioned two aircrafts attacking Srdj. Do you know from

2 where the aircrafts arrived? If you don't know, please indicate so.

3 A. The planes came in flying low from the sea. Anti-aircraft defence

4 had no time to react. They flew up swiftly towards the hill of Srdj. The

5 altitude is about 430 meters for the TV tower. They fired at the tower

6 and they flew off. There was no time to do anything else --

7 MS. MAHINDARATNE: [Previous translation continues]...

8 THE INTERPRETER: Can you hear me now?

9 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I beg your pardon. I just lost the

10 interpretation.

11 Q. Could you repeat what you just stated, Mr. Negodic? I'm sorry. I

12 lost you on that last response.

13 A. Very well. The planes came in from the sea, flying low. The

14 anti-aircraft defence had no time to react to their arrival. If you look

15 at the slopes of Srdj, they looped sharply upwards, as high as the tower,

16 at an altitude of 430 meters. They shelled the tower and then flew on

17 towards Bosnia and Herzegovina, rather, Montenegro, and they never showed

18 up again. Thank you.

19 Q. Mr. Negodic, can you give us some idea as to what the civilian

20 casualties were from the 6 December attack? And I'm referring to civilian

21 casualties.

22 A. You mean the Old Town or the broader town area?

23 Q. First give us an idea as to the entire area, the broad area, and

24 then concentrate on the Old Town.

25 A. About 12 people were killed, between 70 and 80 people were

1 wounded, some seriously and some slightly. To the best of my information,

2 on the 6th of December, I have information about two people being killed

3 and dozens of people being wounded, seriously or slightly, depending.

4 That applies to the Old Town area.

5 Q. So the previous figures you gave was with regard to the wider

6 area, and then you said two people being killed and a dozen being injured

7 in the Old Town. That's what you said?

8 A. That's right.

9 Q. Did your forces suffer any losses from the 6 December attack?

10 A. Some of my men were wounded. None of my men were killed.

11 Q. When and how did the 6 December attack end? First of all, could

12 you give us an idea as to around when the attack ended?

13 A. At nightfall. It's December we're talking about, nightfall comes

14 early, but I can't be specific to the minute. As darkness began to fall,

15 that's when.

16 Q. And how did it end? Did it come to a sudden standstill or did it

17 just cease bit by bit?

18 A. It came to an abrupt halt. An order was probably issued. I can't

19 quite put my finger on it, whether everyone stopped at the same time,

20 because it was always the case that the JNA followed an order, but the

21 paramilitary units did not necessarily follow the order.

22 [Prosecution counsel confer]

23 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Your Honour, that concludes examination-in-chief.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much.

25 Mr. Rodic, is it?

1 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Cross-examined by Mr. Rodic:

3 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Negodic, good afternoon. My name is Goran

4 Rodic. I will ask you questions on behalf of the Defence, questions in

5 relation to the examination-in-chief.

6 First of all, I would like to ask you whether you feel well, in

7 view of the health problems that you've had. Are you able to talk to me

8 now?

9 A. Good afternoon to you too. I believe we can proceed. My health

10 is not ideal, but we are running out of time; therefore, I believe we

11 should proceed.

12 Q. Can you please tell me about your educational background.

13 A. I'm an electro-technician.

14 Q. I assume you completed your secondary education in a school, as an

15 electric technician.

16 A. Yes, sir.

17 Q. Can you tell me when exactly you served in the JNA? If you could

18 give me the exact year when you started.

19 A. Specifically, I think it was in the month of September 1969, and I

20 remained with the JNA until the month of April 1971, give or take a month

21 or two.

22 Q. How long did your training take at the reserve officers' school in

23 Zadar?

24 A. Eight months, following which I was sent to Pozarevac and Trupa

25 [phoen]. When I greeted the soldiers on my way out, there was an alarm.

1 We tried to gather as many soldiers as we could. There were problems with

2 Bulgaria, so we had to remain for another 20 days.

3 Q. Since we speak the same language, sir, we understand each other.

4 If you could just, please, pause briefly after my question, several

5 seconds, for the question to be interpreted. And insofar as you can, keep

6 your answers brief.

7 A. Very well.

8 Q. Back at the reserve officers' school in Zadar, did you study

9 mortars?

10 A. Yes, the 120-millimetre one, and the 82-millimetre one only in

11 theory, not in practice.

12 Q. Is it true that mortars can be defined as an infantry weapon and

13 do not belong to artillery?

14 A. Yes. The 82-millimetre one is an infantry weapon. As a cannon

15 operator, I joined a unit where the basic, fundamental weapon that I used

16 was an 82-millimetre mortar, and I spent my entire military service

17 manning and operating that particular weapon.

18 Q. During the examination-in-chief, you said that you had been

19 involved in securing weapons and training, supplying weapons and

20 training. When you said "supplying weapons," did you mean procuring

21 weapons?

22 A. Maybe that was misunderstood. It was not about procurement and

23 supply, it was merely the distribution of the weapons obtained, and

24 assigning particular officers to particular weapons and positions.

25 Q. When you talk about assigning officers or assigning weapons, does

1 that also apply to the positions of those respective weapons?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What exactly was your involvement with training?

4 A. The files were extracted from a computer at the Territorial

5 Defence staff and the training was conducted on the basis of that. All

6 the officers, junior or senior officers who had been trained for

7 artillery, those were the people who bore the brunt of training others to

8 use those weapons.

9 Q. How and when - this means how and when you conducted training -

10 how and when did you train people to use artillery?

11 A. That was at the combat position itself.

12 Q. Was that at one of the combat positions inside the area, in the

13 town of Dubrovnik?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. This training, was it carried out at combat positions with weapons

16 in the town of Dubrovnik, the combat positions that you indicated on the

17 maps during the examination-in-chief?

18 A. Yes. And prior to that, in the area between Zarkovica and Brgat,

19 while we still had control over the territory.

20 Q. This training in the area of Zarkovica and Brgat could only have

21 been performed before the 24th or 25th of October, couldn't it?

22 A. Yes, that's correct.

23 Q. Can you tell me when you started training your men to use

24 artillery weapons?

25 A. As soon as the first mortars came in. I can't remember the

1 specific date.

2 Q. Roughly speaking. You don't have to remember the exact day, but

3 what month was it?

4 A. Maybe the second half or the end of September.

5 Q. Did you receive from Zagreb your official appointment as chief of

6 artillery pursuant to a request by Nojko Marinovic in P158, an OTP

7 exhibit?

8 A. As far as I remember, it came in from Zagreb merely as a

9 confirmation of my previous appointment, the appointment that I held in

10 the former Yugoslavia, in the area of Dubrovnik municipality. Therefore,

11 my previous assignment and my previous involvement was confirmed by Zagreb

12 and sent back to the commander of the defence forces of Dubrovnik.

13 Q. Prior to September 1991, was there any such position as chief of

14 artillery within the command of the town's defence?

15 A. All the positions, that assigned to myself and those assigned to

16 others who were part of the command, were merely transferred, in a manner

17 of speaking, from what was -- from the system that was used in the former

18 Yugoslavia, because that's what we did when we established this new state

19 of Croatia.

20 Q. The colonel, or rather, then-Lieutenant Colonel Marinovic, or

21 Colonel Mimica, were their assignments also confirmed by those orders from

22 Zagreb in compliance with the previous preparations of the Dubrovnik

23 defence?

24 A. I can't say that with certainty. I only know about volunteers.

25 As for those military officials, those four specifically, I simply don't

1 know. I've never had an occasion to inspect their files.

2 Q. Can you tell me about any other volunteers, volunteers like

3 yourself, their official positions and their names?

4 A. Well, yes. For example, Miso Kraljic, Jurica Caric.

5 Q. And their respective positions?

6 A. Chief of the anti-aircraft defence -- I find it very difficult to

7 remember exactly now. This trial is likely to continue on Monday.

8 Therefore, I'll try to write it down on a piece and paper and, if

9 necessary, I'll provide all their names and respective positions.

10 Q. If I understand you correctly, in late August you got involved in

11 the preparations for the defence of Dubrovnik. Were you then already

12 assigned to your position as chief of artillery; and if so, by whom?

13 A. No, there was nothing in writing, no official appointment. As I

14 told you a while ago, sir, the command, in a manner of speaking, that was

15 there, the people who were assigned, were the same as in the former

16 Yugoslavia in relation to the town area. There was nothing in writing, no

17 official documents, and this was not ratified by Zagreb. This occurred in

18 late November or in December possibly.

19 Q. Very well. Thank you. Also during the examination-in-chief, you

20 said, when asked by my learned colleague about the level of training of

21 the men in the artillery, the people who were subordinated to you, that

22 that level was average, or a medium level. Now, that level of training,

23 was it conditioned by the problems you had with mobilisation and the lack

24 of the necessary VES for the artillery?

25 A. The major problem was that we didn't have a full complement of men

1 for the individual units. We did have sufficient specialties and the

2 chiefs of platoons and batteries, however. The chargers were trained at

3 the combat positions themselves very often.

4 Q. I think you said that a member of the -- members of the Croatian

5 National Guards Corps were not in the artillery. Is that right?

6 A. That's right. They weren't.

7 Q. Now, what about the units of the Croatian National Guards Corps,

8 the ZNG? Did they have those artillery pieces, such as mortars, for

9 example?

10 A. No, they did not. They were deployed in the infantry units, and

11 this was established under the command of what was then Metkovic. And

12 they were also deployed into the 1st and 2nd Infantry Battalion for the

13 town of Dubrovnik. And they had sidearms and, as far as I know, they had

14 a light machine-gun as well.

15 Q. Tell me, please: When did the preparations begin for the defence

16 of Dubrovnik?

17 A. On the 28th of August, 1991. That was when the initiative came

18 from, as I've already stated, all the chiefs and commanders who were in

19 the area of Dubrovnik and who were registered in the National Defence

20 Staff, and they were involved with administrative problems, as I said.

21 They had to deal with the paperwork.

22 Q. May I jog your memory here now with regard to the preparation of

23 the defence? Was it initiated by the police department of Dubrovnik, led

24 by Djuro Korda and the staff of the Territorial Defence, led by Zeljko

25 Pavlovic, for example, and especially with the Secretary for National

1 Defence at that time, who was Miljenko Bratos?

2 A. That was the initiative. He was our chief, Zeljko Pavlovic, and

3 we cooperated closely. As to the other two men you mentioned, I don't

4 think there was much benefit to be gained from them.

5 Q. The defence preparations in the south of Croatia, did they start

6 already in March 1991?

7 A. No.

8 Q. In June 1991, was the 11th Independent Battalion established, the

9 commander being Mato Ledinic?

10 A. I don't know that. All I do know is that in the month of June,

11 from the Konavle area, there were duty shifts without any weapons. Their

12 task was reconnaissance and monitoring of the border belt between Konavle

13 and Montenegro.

14 Q. All right. I'll come to that in due course. I'll ask you about

15 that a little later on. But tell me, please: At the end of June 1991,

16 was the reserve company established of the ZNG in Konavle, with the

17 commander, Marko Resetar, which organised the defence along the borderline

18 above the village of Dubravka?

19 A. No. That was not the Croatian National Guards Corps.

20 Q. I mean a reserve company of the ZNG.

21 A. I don't know how you call it, sir, but what I know was that they

22 were civilians from the Cavtat and Konavle area. They weren't a reserve

23 or whatever you called it, a reserve formation. I never heard that group

24 being called a reserve group or company of the Croatian National Guards

25 Corps. They were farmers in the area, or caterers, or things like that.

1 Q. Yes, but they were men, were they not, military-able men;

2 reservists, in fact?

3 A. Sir, every healthy member, person in the former Yugoslavia,

4 regardless of occupational military specialties, was a reservist of the

5 former state of Yugoslavia.

6 Q. In July 1991, did you organise a defence in Konavle in the

7 direction of Grab, where the guarders of the ZNG took control of the area

8 and control of the roads?

9 A. I'm not aware of that.

10 Q. Can you tell me, please: The command of the defence of Dubrovnik

11 was made up of Nojko Marinovic as the commander; is that right? And was

12 his deputy Lieutenant Colonel Mirko Katanic?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Colonel Milivoj Mimica, was he the assistant commander?

15 A. He was present. He was there. But I don't know what position he

16 held at that time.

17 Q. What about Major Zeljko Pavlovic? Was he the chief of staff?

18 A. Yes, he was.

19 Q. And Zeljko Pavlovic, was he the first commander of the 116th

20 Brigade of the ZNG?

21 A. For the Dubrovnik area, yes, that's right. For the Dubrovnik

22 area.

23 Q. And after him, Colonel Ivan Varenina, was he the second commander

24 of the 116th Brigade of the ZNGs?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. What about Captain First Class Miho Kraljic? Was he the chief of

2 anti-air defence?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And Captain First Class Antun Karaman, was he the chief of

5 engineers?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Tell me now, please: At the beginning of July 1991, in the Vila

8 Rasica, was that where the -- was that where there were 134 guardsmen of

9 which one had arrived from Zagreb and was already taking part in the

10 operations in Zagreb, Pakrac, and Plitvice Lakes?

11 A. I don't know the exact number, but as to their presence in the

12 area and in the Rasica recreation centre, yes.

13 Q. What about the training of the guardsmen? Did it take place at

14 the beach in front of the Splendid Hotel in Lapad?

15 A. I don't know about that.

16 Q. Tell me, please: Do you know the area of the football stadium at

17 Lapad?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. So around that football stadium, are there any residential

20 buildings?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. If I were to give you some photographs to look at, would you be

23 able to recognise the Lapad football stadium?

24 A. Yes.

25 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] I should like to ask the usher's

1 assistance, please, now.

2 Your Honour, the photographs aren't of very good quality because

3 they were photocopied, but I think that they are discernible, and I'm

4 going to show the witness these photographs.

5 Q. Would you please take a look at the first photograph.

6 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] And may we have it placed on the

7 overhead projector as well, please.

8 Q. It says the members of the guards undergoing training on the

9 stadium Lapad.

10 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Your Honour, this photograph indicates a date,

11 and there is no -- nothing to verify as to when this was taken. Of

12 course, there is a year indicated at the bottom of the photograph. I

13 don't know how this particular photograph would be relevant in relation to

14 this particular witness.

15 JUDGE PARKER: You're sounding exactly like Mr. Rodic or

16 Mr. Petrovic this afternoon.

17 Would you please carry on, Mr. Rodic, and if at the end of it

18 we've got some confirmation about the date, fine; if not, you could have a

19 little problem.

20 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Q. Mr. Negodic, can you see this first photograph?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And the playground at Lapad is mentioned, is that right, in 1991?

24 And is that the playing field on Lapad?

25 A. It's not a very good photograph. The second copy is a better one.

1 Q. And what about on the other one, then?

2 A. On the other one, yes, the one you can see two buildings on.

3 Q. Are they the two residential blocks near the playing field?

4 A. It could be the playing field or stadium at Lapad, judging by the

5 general appearance of the two buildings.

6 Q. Tell me, please: These two photographs -- or rather, on this

7 second photograph, we have a signature from the playing field at Lapad,

8 and if you -- would you look at the left-hand residential building,

9 please.

10 A. You mean the one I'm looking at now, with the two buildings?

11 Q. Where it says "the ZNG platoon, summer 1991," you've seen that one

12 already. Now take a look at the other one, with the members of the guard

13 in the summer of 1991. And at the end of the column, you see a

14 residential block; is that right?

15 A. Yes. It is the same building. And in that sense -- or rather, it

16 can be a follow-on from the first photograph.

17 Q. So that is the general location?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Would you now take a look at another photograph, photograph number

20 3. It's an even poorer copy, I'm afraid. Is this the Belvedere? Can you

21 recognise it?

22 A. Looking in the background -- or rather, the Srdj, the peaks of

23 Mount Srdj and the contours of the town. Then I would say yes, it does

24 seem to correspond to that.

25 Q. Now tell me, please: On these photographs, and since this is the

1 best one, that says "platoon ZNG, summer 1991," could you tell us how

2 these men are dressed? What are they wearing?

3 A. I think this is a camouflage uniform.

4 Q. For example, the first soldier in the column, does he have any

5 insignia on his left sleeve?

6 A. If we look at the second and third, there is a difference.

7 Q. Did you know that there was ZNG guardsmen there in the summer of

8 1991, as we said, in the Vila Rasica, for example; they were stationed

9 there and in other locations as well?

10 A. Sir, that was a very early period. At that time, I was working 16

11 kilometers away from Dubrovnik, towards the airport, in the PLAT Hotel,

12 and I spent very little time in Lapad, because it was high season, and I

13 had a lot of work to do.

14 Q. All right. Thank you. Now tell me something else. Looking at

15 this photograph once again, the ZNG platoon, the summer of 1991, this

16 playing field on Lapad and the surrounding parts, has it undergone any

17 changes in relation to 1991? Does it look different?

18 A. No. As far as the buildings are concerned, I don't think so.

19 Q. So that means that until August, up until August and the end of

20 August, because of your work at the PLAT Hotel, you weren't able to be

21 included in the preparations for the defence of Dubrovnik to any great

22 measure?

23 A. We met on the 28th, at the initiative of Zeljko Pavlovic.

24 Q. And tell me, please: Are these the type of military uniforms that

25 a certain number of members of the Croatian army wore, those that were at

1 the positions for Dubrovnik's defence?

2 A. As I've already told you, sir, as far as the artillery is

3 concerned in 1991, you can count the number of uniforms we had on the

4 fingers of one hand. I had one myself. Actually, I was alone. I was the

5 only one to have a JNA uniform, right up to the 6th of December; and after

6 that, I didn't have a camouflage uniform at all.

7 Q. I'm asking you all this for us to clarify any things that were

8 left unclear. When you were asked by the Trial Chamber whether these

9 soldiers had uniforms, your answer was that 95 per cent of them did not.

10 Now, when you said that, did you mean the members of the artillery or did

11 you mean the overall members and soldiers of the Croatian defence forces

12 in Dubrovnik?

13 A. I meant the forces in Dubrovnik. And, as I've already said, of

14 that number of the ZNG, they were deployed along the 1st and 2nd Infantry

15 Battalion. So I assume that the soldiers who did have uniforms were

16 precisely those same men who were in the infantry battalion.

17 Q. Tell me, sir: Were there any members of the HOS among the defence

18 forces of Dubrovnik?

19 A. HOS members, there were some, at Srdj, a squad, to the best of my

20 knowledge. I was never in touch with them, and I do not know how they

21 came to be there.

22 Q. Do you know where they had come from, how they arrived in

23 Dubrovnik?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Were they locals?

1 A. No. Those were not locals from Dubrovnik area.

2 Q. Were there any other units, or rather, men, who were no locals but

3 who came along and got involved in the units?

4 A. Not as far as I know.

5 Q. As far as discipline was concerned, these HOS members, were they

6 any different from anyone else, all the remaining Croatian forces in

7 Dubrovnik?

8 A. I can't answer that question. To the best of my knowledge, they

9 were at the fortress of Srdj. They were not deployed anywhere even near

10 my units, which would then allow me to judge their discipline.

11 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would like to

12 move these photographs into evidence, and may they please be assigned a

13 number.

14 JUDGE PARKER: The problem, Mr. Rodic, is that, which was raised

15 by Ms. Mahindaratne, the witness has not been able to confirm that these

16 men were in training in the summer of 1991. He has been able to indicate

17 that he thinks that these -- two of these photographs were taken on the

18 sports oval at Lapad and that one appears to have been taken at the

19 Belvedere, but we have no evidence as to when they were taken.

20 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as far as the Defence is

21 concerned, what is relevant is to identify this location, and the witness

22 has recognised it, has in fact identified both of these locations. We can

23 leave aside the date, if the witness knows nothing about the date. This

24 is only a caption in relation to the date. What the Defence wants to know

25 about, and what really matters to us, is the location, and it has been

1 identified by the witness. If need be, we can correct the dates on these

2 photographs.

3 JUDGE PARKER: What is the relevance of the location?

4 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] The location and the military, where

5 they were, on account of certain positions, certain operations, that sort

6 of thing.

7 JUDGE PARKER: You see, it might be very interesting to have

8 photographs of a squad of soldiers in training from 1995, but it would

9 have nothing to do with this case. I'm trying to see whether this can be

10 shown or whether you are able to assure us that it will be shown to have a

11 relevance to our case, which is concerned with December 1991.

12 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we received these

13 photographs during our investigation in the field. The Defence will try

14 to do our best to confirm the dates on these photographs. But if they

15 could just, please, be marked for identification now, and then in due

16 course, I'm sure we will be able to verify the dates on these photographs.

17 JUDGE PARKER: The three photographs will be marked for

18 identification at the present time, Mr. Rodic.

19 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Your Honour, since it's for identification, I

20 will not place an objection.

21 JUDGE PARKER: I've been working on your objection, as you might

22 have noticed.

23 THE REGISTRAR: The photo that has 1991 is marked for

24 identification D72.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Could I point out that two photographs have that.

1 THE REGISTRAR: Okay. The photo with all the gentlemen standing

2 in one line.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Showing two large blocks of building in the

4 background.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you. That will be marked

6 for identification D72.

7 The next picture, with soldiers marching in line, will be marked

8 D73, and marked for identification.

9 And the last photo will be marked D74.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

11 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12 Q. Mr. Negodic, part of the National Guards Corps, even before

13 October 1991, did they take up positions in the village of Cepikuce in

14 Grudina [phoen]?

15 A. Not that I'm aware of.

16 Q. What about the coal factory, the Nikola Masanovic coal factory?

17 Throughout 1991, they were speedily producing a home-made anti-infantry

18 mine, often referred to as a hog.

19 A. Yes. We used to refer to it as a TV set.

20 Q. TV set.

21 A. Yes, as far as I remember. Not that I know much about these

22 things, but by all accounts, when someone said "a TV set," it was a mine;

23 perhaps not a surprise mine, but it is one kind of a mine.

24 Q. Upon his arrival in Dubrovnik, Lieutenant Colonel Nojko Marinovic,

25 when he came from the JNA barracks at Korcula, between the 25th and 26th

1 of September, did he bring to Dubrovnik six military trucks carrying four

2 85-millimetre guns, two Z 76-millimetre guns, two Maljutkas, one set of

3 sighting equipment for the guns, 50 rifles, and some ammunition?

4 A. It's been a long time since, and the question is long as well. As

5 for the first part of your question --

6 Q. Trucks with four 82-millimetre guns.

7 A. There were two 82-millimetre guns, in actual fact.

8 Q. Two ZIS 76-millimetre guns?

9 A. That's correct.

10 Q. Two Maljutkas?

11 A. I only had one myself.

12 Q. One set of sighting equipment for the guns?

13 A. Probably.

14 Q. 50 Mauzer rifles?

15 A. I don't know about that.

16 Q. Tell me: When you say two 82-millimetre guns, is it that you are

17 only aware of as many as two of those, or perhaps two other guns had been

18 captured or went missing at one point?

19 A. The case is I'm only aware of those two.

20 Q. When the landing at Kupari took place in October 1991, were any of

21 your weapons captured by the JNA in that operation?

22 A. A ZIS gun was left behind, but this one did not belong to any of

23 the Dubrovnik units. This ZIS gun arrived with a crew from Metkovic and

24 Ploce, and it was positioned in the general Kupari area, but I can't give

25 you the exact position, nor do I know which unit it belonged to, or

1 rather, what the name of that unit was. I merely heard that there was one

2 gun that had been left behind at Kupari, and I think it was a

3 76-millimetre ZIS.

4 Q. You don't know which unit that was, do you?

5 JUDGE PARKER: I'm sorry, but in view of the time, we must finish,

6 to ensure that your client can get back this evening. We will adjourn now

7 for the weekend. I understand we're to sit in the afternoon on Monday,

8 whereas it will be in the morning after that for the remainder of the

9 week. I think there's been a late change in that. So it will be 2.15 on

10 Monday.

11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.02 p.m.,

12 to be reconvened on Monday, the 26th of April, 2004,

13 at 2.15 p.m.

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