Page 5391
1 THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL TRIBUNAL CASE NO. IT-94-1-T
2 FOR THE FORMER YUGOSLAVIA
3 IN THE TRIAL CHAMBER
4 Thursday, 15th August 1996
5 (10.00 a.m.)
6 (Closed session) [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Chamber]
7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann?
8 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, your Honour.
9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We continue to be in closed session, the technicians
10 tell me, yes. Mr. Niemann?
11 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, I have spoken to the witness over the course of
12 the night and I have reminded him of the contempt provisions of these
13 Rules. I must say that it is not easy to threaten a person with six
14 months imprisonment (redacted)
15 (redacted) or with a $10,000 fine when they are penniless, but the
16 witness tells me that his view of the matter is that he only has left
17 his family and he has a duty to protect them. The way he sees it,
18 that if in a struggle to protect his family the transcript of his
19 evidence before this court has to be struck out, then he believes that
20 the interests of his family come first.
21 But, having discussed it with him, he is prepared, your
22 Honour, to return to the box and to resume his testimony and to answer
23 Mr. Kay's questions. For my part, I have promised him that I will be
24 objecting to each and every question which is arguably in breach of
25 the order. With respect to that, your Honour, and in relation to the
Page 5392
1 matters raised by the Defence, it is our submission that anything that
2 we may have discovered to the Defence in no way gives them licence to
3 breach the order of the Court. That will be our position on that.
4 Finally, your Honour, the witness has asked me to ask the
5 Court for their indulgence to permit him to explain his position. He
6 has promised me that he will be short in doing so, he will be
7 respectful and polite to the Court, but he wants to explain why it is
8 that he has taken this position, but he is prepared to return to the
9 box and to answer the questions, your Honour.
10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?
11 MR. KAY: Yes. Mr. Niemann indicated these matters to me earlier and I
12 guess we see how we proceed, your Honour. I am mindful of the Court's
13 order.
14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good. Then call the witness in and we will
15 continue. He may explain. We have already advised him of the
16 possibility of his being cited for contempt, considering that
17 admonition, then he may respond if he wishes by way of an explanation,
18 a brief explanation.
19 WITNESS L, recalled.
20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Sir, you understand that you are still under the
21 oath that you gave yesterday to tell the truth, do you not?
22 THE WITNESS [In translation]: I do.
23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I understand that, from Mr. Niemann, you wish to
24 respond to the position taken by the Trial Chamber yesterday, that
25 questions that had been directed to you by Mr. Kay were in issue in
Page 5393
1 this case and that you should respond to those questions subject to
2 the possibility of being held in contempt. You may respond, if you
3 wish.
4 THE WITNESS: Yes. I apologise for yesterday's reasons which I have not
5 given to the Court the names and I apologise to the Defence. My
6 problems are such that I have lost my father. I do not, I know that
7 there is no one to protect my mother and my sisters. I have to do it
8 myself, to protect my mother and my sisters, because I lost my father
9 and because I worked at the camp, and I repent for everything that I
10 have done in that camp that I should not have done, and I admit to
11 having done it. Otherwise, I did not want to go on television or some
12 camera or to the newspapers to give any evidence against Tadic
13 involving my family.
14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. Mr. Kay, would you like to continue with
15 cross-examination?
16 MR. KAY: Thank you, your Honour.
17 Cross-examined by MR. KAY, continued.
18 Q. Witness, yesterday you told the Court that your shift duty at
19 Trnopolje camp was from 7.00 in the morning until 7.00 in the evening,
20 is that right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. What I would like you to tell me is the names of the other guards who
23 were on that shift at the same time as you, and if you could give the
24 names slowly so that we can hear them clearly?
25 A. Yes. Zoran Ergarac, Julije Cindric, Sinisa Popovic, Sasa Popovic,
Page 5394
1 Bosko Dragicevic, Zoran Karajica, Zeljko Karajica, Dragan Baltic,
2 Dusko Tadic, Milan Cavic. Those are the ones that I can remember.
3 Q. You have told us that you were at guard post 4. How many guard posts
4 were there around the camp at this time?
5 A. Four.
6 Q. Were you with another guard or other guards at guard post 4?
7 A. No.
8 Q. The other three guard posts, did they have single guards?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. The duties of the guards who were not on guard post duty were what?
11 A. As far as the guard duties are concerned, they were only that the
12 civilians would not come out of the camp and that the military and
13 other civilians, the locals, do not approach the camp and do not do to
14 the people what they should not.
15 Q. Was there a fence around the camp at this time?
16 A. There was a mesh wire and then there was barbed wire which was about
17 2 to 2.5 metres high.
18 Q. If we can look at that plan that you drew upon yesterday, D34,
19 please, and if the overhead projector could be switched on and D34
20 placed on there? What I would like you to do is to indicate with the
21 pointer where the fence that you have described extended around the
22 camp?
23 A. My guard post was here.
24 Q. Yes.
25 A. The second one was behind the school.
Page 5395
1 Q. Just keep the pointer there on the map so that we can see where the
2 second guard post was. That is your guard post. The second guard
3 post, you were just telling us, was where?
4 A. [The witness indicated].
5 Q. Yes.
6 A. The third guard post was, sorry, here where you see -- that was the
7 fence, that line. Then there was a guard post No. 1 which was near
8 the substation.
9 Q. Thank you. Was that clear to the Court, the markings?
10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Clear. Do you want him to mark on your 34?
11 MR. KAY: Your Honour, I would, if possible.
12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK.
13 MR. KAY: Thank you, witness. If you could just mark then those other
14 positions of guard posts on that plan that is on the overhead
15 projector? Take it off the overhead projector and put the plan in
16 front of you now.
17 A. [The witness indicated on the plan].
18 Q. Whilst you have the plan there in front of you, you put it back on
19 the projector, if you could just indicate with the marker where the
20 two metre, two and a half metre fence stretched around the camp?
21 A. The fence ran from the road going to the store, from my guard post up
22 to guard post No. 3, from guard post No. 3 to straight to the road
23 leading to Prijedor, to the guard post No. 2. From the guard post No.
24 2 along the road leading to Prijedor down to guard post No. 1, the
25 electric substation. Then from the substation to the entrance to the
Page 5396
1 dom and the store, that was the gate.
2 Q. If you could put the plan back in front of you now and with that red
3 biro you have on your desk, if you could just draw around the map that
4 route of the fence around the camp? Thank you.
5 A. [The witness indicated on the plan].
6 Q. Thank you, witness. If you could just put it back on the overhead
7 projector and leave it there so that we can see it? Yes. Was this
8 fence the same height all the way round the camp of two metres or two
9 and a half metres?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Was the barbed wired on the top section of the fence or the bottom
12 section?
13 A. On top of the fence.
14 Q. The wire below was what sort of wire, are you able to describe it?
15 A. It was like a mesh.
16 Q. Was your guard post inside the wire fence or on the outside of the
17 wire fence?
18 A. Inside.
19 Q. So when you were relieved from duty, that would have been one of the
20 other guards coming from within the camp, would it?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Could you tell me now the names of those guards who were on the other
23 shift that you would have taken over from at 7 o'clock in the morning?
24 A. I replaced Zoran Ergarac, Julije Cindric and Sinisa Popovic.
25 Q. I am sorry, I thought that you said they were on your shift from 7.00
Page 5397
1 in the morning to 7.00 in the evening?
2 A. They were coming, we often switched. My shift was in the morning.
3 Q. Just so that it is clear, can I go back to this? What I asked
4 originally were the names of those guards on your shift from 7.00 in
5 the morning to 7.00 in the evening. If you have taken over from Zoran
6 Ergarac, he would be on the night time shift, would he not?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Can you give me the names then of those guards who were on the night
9 time shift, the shift that you took over from?
10 A. I cannot remember exactly, who were coming, but they were coming, the
11 guards, from the environs of Omarska and Prijedor, some locals whom I
12 did not know.
13 Q. Zoran Ergarac, was he then on that night time shift rather than your
14 day time shift?
15 A. Zoran Ergarac was coming to the night shift.
16 Q. Sinisa Popovic, he was on the night shift, was he?
17 A. It depended, sometimes he would come in the morning, sometimes in the
18 night shift. I am sorry, your Honours, because they were changing,
19 they were coming in the morning and some were coming in the evening to
20 their shifts.
21 Q. Your shift had how many guards on it?
22 A. Four.
23 Q. The units who came in for that shift from 7.00 to 7.00 was just four
24 guards rather than any more than four guards?
25 A. No.
Page 5398
1 Q. So how many guards came in then on your shift?
2 A. Four.
3 Q. When you left your post at guard post 4 to go to the white house or
4 other places with Bosko Dragicevic, did you always have a relief guard
5 who took over your position at No. 4?
6 A. No, from the guard post 1 the guard is watching and he comes to the
7 gate and he watches my guard post.
8 Q. Are you able to give us the names then of who used to stand at guard
9 post 1 on your shift?
10 A. I cannot quite recall, but Sinisa Popovic was there.
11 Q. At guard post 2 on your shift, who would that have been?
12 A. It depended, Zoran Ergarac could be there or -- I am sorry, the guard
13 post 2 ----
14 Q. Guard post 3 that you have indicated, who would have been on duty
15 there on your shift?
16 A. Dragan Maric.
17 Q. You told us yesterday when you gave us names of the other guards of
18 Zoran Karajica and Milan Cavic that they were Catholics. Can you tell
19 me how you knew that?
20 A. They went to the Catholic church.
21 Q. The Catholic church where?
22 A. Towards Kozarac, and the Catholic church is on the right-hand side.
23 Q. You also told us that Dusko Tadic visited the camp in a Golf motor
24 car. What I would like you to help me with is whether you can
25 describe anything about that car, what it looked like, its condition.
Page 5399
1 Are you able to help us with that?
2 A. When he came in a car, it was -- then Dusko Tadic drove a white Golf,
3 white but a Golf.
4 Q. Can you remember whether it was a new car or an old car?
5 A. Not brand new.
6 Q. Any features about that car that you can remember?
7 A. All I remember is that it was white, that it was a white Golf and
8 that he came in it.
9 Q. You told us yesterday that the day after 26th October, which would
10 have been your first working day at the camp, you saw 10 men being led
11 out of the dom building by Bosko Dragicevic, Zoran Karajica, Milan
12 Cavic and you told us that Dusko Tadic was there as well. At this
13 time were you on your position at guard post 4?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Were you looking down then towards the dom building?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Can you tell us where you saw Dragicevic, Karajica and Cavic, where
18 they came from before they went to the dom?
19 A. They were in the office which is next to the asphalt. They were
20 there and they came out of the office and crossed the road and entered
21 the camp grounds and then went into the dom.
22 Q. The office that you describe, was that also the Red Cross building?
23 A. No.
24 Q. So this was a separate place that was known as the office, is that
25 right?
Page 5400
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Did you see them actually enter the dom building from your position
3 at guard post 4?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. To enter the dom building, you go under some arches which were at the
6 front of the building, is that right?
7 A. You mean in front of the shop?
8 Q. Yes, perhaps if you could see a photograph that we have of the front
9 of this building? I tender this now as D37, your Honour. Perhaps it
10 could be shown to Mr. Niemann as well? There is a Prosecution Exhibit
11 that I know is a head-on photograph, but I cannot remember the number.
12 JUDGE VOHRAH: Mr. Kay, are you now talking about the first occasion when
13 the detainees were taken out from the dom on 26th October?
14 MR. KAY: I am talking about the second occasion ----
15 JUDGE VOHRAH: Second occasion.
16 MR. KAY: --- your Honour, which you may recollect the witness referred to
17 as being the next day when 10 men are concerned.
18 [To the witness]: Do you recognise that photograph there as a photograph
19 of the dom building?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Thank you. Your Honour, I have tendered it. I offer that now as
22 Exhibit D37.
23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?
24 MR. NIEMANN: No objection, your Honour.
25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: D37 will be admitted.
Page 5401
1 MR. KAY [To the witness]: If you could just put it on the screen on the
2 overhead projector? This is a photograph taken from the other end of
3 the road, is it not, of the dom building?
4 A. This photograph had to be taken from the road leading to Kozarac from
5 Trnopolje, and this is the front of dom that we can see here.
6 Q. Were women and children or men held in that building or was it a mix
7 of both of them?
8 A. Only men were kept in the dom and women and children were kept in the
9 school.
10 Q. Could you see the people walk into that building from your position
11 at guard post 4?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. So, what you told the Court was that the three of them, Dragicevic,
14 Karajica and Cavic, walked into that building. Was Dusko Tadic with
15 them at that time?
16 A. Dusko Tadic arrived.
17 Q. But did he go into that building with them?
18 A. No.
19 Q. When you say he "arrived", what do you mean by that? Where did he
20 go?
21 A. Well, we say "arrived" which means that he came in that car and
22 reached his headquarters, the office.
23 Q. So he was not down at that part of the camp where the dom building
24 was, he was at his office which you have marked for us on the plan?
25 A. Yes.
Page 5402
1 Q. You told us that he eventually went to Kozarac in his Golf. So how
2 long did he stay at the camp for?
3 A. I cannot remember how long he was in the camp exactly, but then he
4 turned and went in his car towards Kozarac.
5 Q. So when Bosko Dragicevic and the others went into that building, how
6 long did they stay in the dom for?
7 A. About 15, 10, 15 minutes.
8 Q. You also told us yesterday that along with the three named, Cavic,
9 Karajica, Dragicevic, were also policemen. What were the other
10 policemen called, what were their names?
11 A. They are police, civilian police.
12 Q. Did you know any of them?
13 A. Dragicevic, Zoran Karajica, Cavic.
14 Q. But were there any other policemen there other than those three?
15 A. Yes, there were policemen who worked in the camp and I was there,
16 Zoran Karajica, Dragan Maric, Sinisa Popovic.
17 Q. I think you misunderstood me. I am talking about this occasion when
18 you describe the 10 men being taken from the dom. Other than the three
19 names that you have given, I wanted to know the names of the other
20 policemen whom you have not told us about who were also with them.
21 A. I cannot remember a policeman. I do not know. I did not really know
22 them.
23 Q. How did you know they were policemen?
24 A. Well, they used to come in police uniforms and they frequently came,
25 but I did not know their names.
Page 5403
1 Q. Were any of those with Dragicevic, Karajica and Cavic on this
2 occasion when the 10 men were taken from the dom?
3 A. Likewise, it was this police but I do not know what their names are.
4 I am sorry.
5 Q. When the group of policemen took the 10 men from the dom, can you
6 recollect where they took them to, what route they took?
7 A. They crossed the road leading to Kozarac.
8 Q. Then they went where?
9 A. Then they took them to the white house.
10 Q. So if we put that plan, D34, back on the overhead projector, could
11 you just trace with that pointer the route they would have taken to
12 get to the white house? Thank you very much, Mr. Bos.
13 A. Excuse me, your Honour, may I say something? This map here, it is an
14 excellent job, but as regards the white house, it is slightly
15 different in my time. I can draw the plan and the map and show where
16 the white house is and where they were taken. Perhaps the explanation
17 will be easier then.
18 Q. Yes, I will give you a fresh plan here which I tender as D38, your
19 Honour.
20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is that ----
21 MR. KAY: I am using again the Prosecution Exhibit.
22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I think what the witness is saying is that he cannot
23 use that plan even if it is fresh to show where the white house is.
24 That is my understanding. Are you saying, sir, that you cannot use
25 that Exhibit that is before you to point out where the white house is?
Page 5404
1 A. Yes.
2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: So a fresh one I do not think will help him.
3 MR. KAY: Yes. If I can ask the witness this question? [To the witness]:
4 I thought you indicated with an X that we see on the plan where the
5 white house was yesterday?
6 A. Well, it is here, but I could explain it more clearly and draw it
7 more clearly, because I did not draw this map.
8 Q. Is the position that you have indicated with that X the approximate
9 site of the white house?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. If that is the case, can you not then trace the route from the dom
12 that they would have led these 10 prisoners upon to take them to the
13 white house?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. That is all I am asking you to do, sir, using the plan which is a
16 fresh plan which I am asking to be put in front of you. If you could
17 just indicate, again with the use of an X, where the white house is on
18 this plan and draw the route from the dom to the white house that
19 these 10 prisoners would have walked to get to the white house, using
20 your red biro which is on the desk in front of you.
21 A. [The witness indicated on the plan].
22 Q. If you can indicate again with the use of a square the office?
23 A. No problem.
24 Q. If you could put that on the screen by your side? So what you have
25 indicated then is the path from the Kozarac road up to the white
Page 5405
1 house, is that right?
2 A. This is when you come out of the dom, you get to the office and it is
3 the road leading towards Kozarac. Then you pass behind the office and
4 then you follow this road and reach the white house.
5 Q. Was Dusko Tadic at the camp when those three men and the other
6 policemen went into the dom as you saw them?
7 A. No.
8 Q. When they left the dom with the 10 men, was Dusko Tadic in the camp?
9 A. No.
10 Q. When they moved from the dom and arrived at the white house, how
11 long did that take?
12 A. I cannot say exactly, but from the white house to the dom it was
13 about 350 metres.
14 Q. Were they walking at ordinary walking pace?
15 A. Normal.
16 Q. Did Dusko Tadic arrive at the camp after they had been to the white
17 house?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Did Dusko Tadic arrive at the camp before they arrived at the white
20 house?
21 A. Dusko Tadic came and then -- and then they took out 10 prisoners and
22 Dusko Tadic left off in his car. He turned and went off towards
23 Kozarac and those 10 prisoners were then taken to this white house.
24 Q. So you are saying before they went into the dom Dusko Tadic had
25 arrived at the camp?
Page 5406
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. As far as what happened in the white house on that occasion is
3 concerned, you did not hear any gun shots, is that right?
4 A. No.
5 Q. What were the ages of this group of 10 men?
6 A. I cannot remember exactly.
7 Q. Had you ever been into the dom yourself where the prisoners were
8 held?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Had you ever been into those other buildings in front of the dom
11 where there is an office and other rooms?
12 A. I was not there.
13 Q. The next matter you told us about concerned 5th November 1992, is
14 that right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. By this stage you had been working at the camp for over a week, is
17 that right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Were there any new guards that had joined your shift during that
20 time?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Were the guards on your shift the same guards at 5th November as they
23 had been in the previous week or so?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Again on this occasion you describe Dragicevic, Karajica, Cavic and
Page 5407
1 Tadic. You told us that Sinisa Popovic would cover your sentry post,
2 is that right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did that mean that he was going to stand at guard post 4?
5 A. No. He was at guard post 1.
6 Q. Did you speak to Sinisa Popovic at all before you went with Bosko
7 Dragicevic to the white house?
8 A. No, Bosko Dragicevic talked to him, not I.
9 Q. You have described over the course of the next two months your
10 involvement in a number of rapes and killings at the white house and
11 elsewhere. Did you talk about these things with the other guards who
12 were on your duty?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Presumably, when people were shot against the post at the white
15 house, those shots could be heard in other parts of the camp?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Silencers were not being used on pistols or anything like that, were
18 they?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Those other guards who were on duty with you, did they not say,
21 "Well, what was that firing about?"
22 A. Well, if they saw that prisoners were being taken, then they knew
23 that it was to kill the prisoners.
24 Q. You did not then talk with them about any of these things?
25 A. No.
Page 5408
1 Q. You have described yourself being involved and Dragan Maric. He was
2 a guard who was on that same day time shift as you, was he?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You described him being present at one of these occasions. Were any
5 of the other guards also present at other occasions? By "other guards"
6 I do not mean Karajica, Cavic, Dragicevic or Tadic. I mean any of the
7 other guards who were guards like yourself. Do you know if they were
8 also involved in the same kinds of incidents that you were?
9 A. No.
10 Q. What about Sinisa Popovic?
11 A. I cannot remember, I cannot exactly remember, but they were working
12 before me, before my time, whether they participated with those other
13 guards whom I do not know.
14 Q. Dragan Maric, to my recollection, you described as being involved on
15 one occasion. Was he involved on other occasions, do you know?
16 A. I do not know, but I know that he was -- he started working there
17 before me.
18 Q. Ergarac, do you know if he was involved in similar incidents to those
19 that you have described?
20 A. I am sorry, I cannot remember whether they did anything because they
21 never told me anything.
22 Q. No, but when you were at guard post 4 at the camp did you see others
23 of them going off with the Dragicevic group to the white house or
24 elsewhere with girls or male prisoners?
25 A. No, as far as I know, the ones that I knew, those were with
Page 5409
1 Dragicevic.
2 Q. Do you know why Dragicevic selected you to take part in killings and
3 rapes?
4 A. Maybe because he got an order from Tadic and because I was the last
5 to come to the camp.
6 Q. Anything else, anything else that was said to you or gave you any
7 better indication than that?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Because the first way you are involved is Dragicevic coming up to you
10 and saying had you ever had sex before, was that right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And telling him (sic) you could by raping a girl, is that right?
13 A. I said that I did not want to do it, that I was not going to obey the
14 order, but I was under threat that I was going to be killed, that I
15 had to do it.
16 Q. The idea from what you have told us is that these girls would be
17 impregnated by Serb men, the idea was to get them pregnant, is that
18 right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Given the conditions at this camp, were these girls in poor physical
21 condition?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. They were girls who did not receive much food?
24 A. They were bringing it from their own homes.
25 Q. Presumably, at this time, in November and December 1992, there was
Page 5410
1 not much food for these people to have other than humanitarian aid?
2 A. The humanitarian aid was not given them. What they had for food they
3 were bringing from their houses so that they kept it, so that they
4 could have something to subsist on.
5 Q. Presumably, many of them were very thin and under-nourished?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And with illnesses?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. You were involved in, first of all, an attempted rape of one girl
10 where you did not penetrate her and that was the first occasion that
11 you were involved in a sexual offence during this period, is that
12 right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Again, can you help me that after that first occasion when you are
15 asked to be involved why you were selected later on in the day to be
16 involved in a rape?
17 A. Because I did not penetrate that girl.
18 Q. These girls came from where in the camp?
19 A. I am sorry, where did they come from?
20 Q. Yes, I mean, when they were brought and taken to the white house,
21 where had they come from?
22 A. From the school.
23 Q. What route did they take to the white house?
24 A. They were crossing the road past the office and that they were coming
25 to the white house.
Page 5411
1 Q. Again, this is in daylight, is that right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. When the girls were taken from the school, the men taking them had
4 walked into the school, would that be right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Are you able to tell us how many female prisoners were in the school
7 during this period, November/December?
8 A. I could not tell exactly, but I know that there were about 1500 of
9 them detained there in the camp.
10 Q. From what you could see, was the school crowded with these prisoners?
11 A. I was not inside the school.
12 Q. From what you could see, were there any male prisoners inside the
13 school building as well?
14 A. No.
15 Q. During these rapes that took place, you said that the girls were
16 blindfolded?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Were they blindfolded when they left the school?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. When you went to the white house and saw the girls, were their
21 blindfolds still on?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Did you ever not go into the building yourself and take a girl from
24 the building?
25 A. No.
Page 5412
1 Q. Do you know why that was not the case, why the other guards, Cavic,
2 Karajica, Dragicevic, did not order you to go into the building with
3 them?
4 A. Because I did not want to go and they did not allow me to go inside.
5 Q. But what would have been the problem here? If you are threatened by
6 them to commit the rape, as you say threatened with guns, there would
7 have been no problem in them just at the end of a barrel of a gun
8 sending you into the school with them to fetch out a girl?
9 A. Because they knew that there were many prisoners who were watching
10 who was taking them out and who was doing what, and that they could
11 recognise faces.
12 Q. But you were a newcomer to this area, no one knew you, did they?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. These local Muslim people and Croat people kept in this place would
15 not have known you, they would have known the local men, Cavic,
16 Karajica, Dragicevic, Tadic?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. So if they walked into this school building and these were local
19 prisoners from Prijedor, Kozarac, the surrounding villages, all the
20 women in those rooms would have known who they were?
21 A. Well, they knew because they were from there, because they know
22 Dragicevic and Zoran Karajica and Dusko Tadic, that they lived there.
23 Q. They did not go in wearing masks covering their faces, did they?
24 A. No.
25 Q. But if you had gone in there, none of them would have known you or
Page 5413
1 any of your other friends who were refugees, like Sinisa Popovic,
2 Dragan Maric, they would not have known you, would they?
3 A. Well, they would not because they never saw me.
4 Q. Or, witness, was this the case that you and your friends who were
5 outsiders in this area were going into those rooms and taking girls
6 out for yourself?
7 A. No.
8 Q. What you are doing here is blaming others in the area, other known
9 people, Tadic, Dragicevic, Cavic?
10 A. I do not blame them. It is the truth that Dusko Tadic and Dragicevic
11 and Zoran Karajica did go into the school, were taking out girls and
12 were going into the dom and were taking out the elderly men and
13 others, were watching, and Dusko Tadic was giving orders that this had
14 to happen, that these people have to be destroyed, and like those
15 girls who were raped, I also was in fear and fear that I could have
16 been killed if I did not obey what he ordered.
17 That people -- those people are not guilty for having been
18 forced out of their house, houses, and taken into the camp, that those
19 people also want to live. I did not want to do anything against
20 anybody and just wanted to protect myself from not going to the
21 frontlines and getting killed there. Those people have done nothing
22 to me, the people who were in that camp. I came to protect them from
23 others, but Dragicevic and Dusko Tadic and Zoran Karajica forced me to
24 do what I should not have done, that I had to kill, that I had to rape
25 girls. I do not know what reasons. I also have a sister. I feel
Page 5414
1 bad. I know that I am guilty. I was a minor during that time.
2 Q. You say you volunteered to protect them. You volunteered for work at
3 that camp because you thought you would get paid 300 deutschemarks a
4 month, did you not?
5 A. That was a promise, 300 marks, that would have been the salary but
6 that salary did not happen, but it would protect me from not going to
7 the frontline, but I was not interested in the salary or in doing what
8 I should not have done.
9 Q. No one came up to and asked you if you wanted a job at a camp. It
10 was one of your friends who took you so that you could get some work?
11 A. It is not it. I came so that I would have a job, that I would not go
12 to the frontline, not to go as a minor, to work as in the camp, not to
13 touch anybody, not to hurt anybody, and I know that these people have
14 done nothing to me and I had no reason to do something against them.
15 What Dusko Tadic ordered, that these people had to be killed, that the
16 girls had to be raped, that is something else.
17 Q. That is what you are saying now, but Bosko Dragicevic did a lot of
18 ordering to you, did he not, not Dusko Tadic who is on trial here but
19 Bosko Dragicevic?
20 A. And he was ordering Bosko Dragicevic.
21 Q. How do you know that? You do not know that at all. It was Bosko
22 Dragicevic who offered you a job at this camp?
23 A. Because he asked Dusko Tadic.
24 Q. Let us go back to see how you got this job then. Was it one of your
25 friends who was already working at the camp?
Page 5415
1 A. No, but he knew them.
2 Q. Who gave you the introduction to Bosko Dragicevic to work at this
3 camp?
4 A. (redacted)
5 Q. Had you spoken to anyone else who was working at the camp before you
6 spoke to Bosko Dragicevic?
7 A. I only talked to this (redacted).
8 Q. Was he working at the camp as well?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Why did you talk to (redacted) then?
11 A. Because he knew Dragicevic and he knew Dusko Tadic.
12 Q. So (redacted) introduced you to Dusko Tadic or Bosko Dragicevic so
13 that you could get this job?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. But you knew already some of the guards who were working there, is
16 that not right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Some of them were refugees from the place that you had come from who
19 had already started work at Trnopolje?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Do you know how long they had been working at Trnopolje for?
22 A. I cannot recall but they came before me.
23 Q. You had spoken to them about their work at Trnopolje, how they were
24 spending their time?
25 A. No.
Page 5416
1 Q. So did you know what Trnopolje was?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Or had they spoken to you about Trnopolje and told you that there
4 were easy pickings, getting money off the inmates and also available
5 girls, is that what they told you?
6 A. No, as far as I know, it was only said that there were prisoners
7 there who are Muslims who are interred in the camp and that the guards
8 were needed.
9 Q. But these other people from your area who were working as guards at
10 Trnopolje, were they other young men like you?
11 A. There were some younger ones, but the most were older than I was.
12 Q. Under 25?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. As you have told us about these rapes taking place, it seems that the
15 blindfold is taken off in respect of all those girls after they have
16 been raped, is that right?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Let us just look at an example you gave us yesterday of the first
19 time you raped a girl successfully.
20 A. I am sorry, when they were taken back to the camp their blindfold was
21 taken off.
22 Q. Yes. You described yesterday that after you had raped her and you
23 started to leave, Milan Cavic also raped her. She was lifted off the
24 mattress and her blindfold removed, and that Dusko Tadic threatened
25 her saying her throat would be slit if she said what happened. You
Page 5417
1 see, when that happens, that blindfold is taken off, she sees Dusko
2 Tadic, does she not? Is that not right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Before that blindfold is taken off she has not seen Dusko Tadic at
5 all?
6 A. I am sorry, what blind -- the girls who were raped in the basement,
7 their eyes were blindfolded up going to the basement. They were
8 stripped and after the rapes the blindfold would be taken off the
9 girls so they could wipe themselves off. After the rape, she was
10 facing the wall and she dressed and then they took her out of the
11 basement and led her towards the school, to the camp.
12 Q. Let us just look then at this blindfold which is to prevent her
13 seeing probably where she is going, would you agree, or who she is
14 with, would you agree?
15 A. The girl, her blindfold would be taken off and she would be held
16 under her arms.
17 Q. Yes, and what risk would that give those people who have taken her in
18 a blindfold from the school to that building?
19 A. When she is taken out of the basement, the girl would be, taken the
20 blindfold off, but during the rape she would not know who raped her.
21 Q. Yes. As you have told us on all the occasions, as I remember it,
22 that after the rape the blindfold was removed. I think you know what I
23 am getting at, do you not, witness, that there is a risk here that she
24 is going to see those men with that blindfold off?
25 A. Yes.
Page 5418
1 Q. If she is a local girl, she is going to know Dusko Tadic, Milan
2 Cavic, Bosko Dragicevic and any of the local people, would you agree?
3 A. It depends whether she is from the part of Kozarac that she could
4 know Dusan Tadic and the others, then she could recognise his name.
5 If she does not know his name Dusko Tadic, then she can only recognise
6 him by the face of the person who did this to her.
7 Q. Let us say that she does not know him then and he is the Camp
8 Commander, as you have told us, she is going to see him around and
9 recognise him at some later stage as being down there when she was
10 raped?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Yet this blindfold is taken off?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You see, what I will put to you again is this. I suggest to you
15 that, in fact, you and your other friends were using these girls for
16 your own purposes, you were not being forced by other people. This
17 is something that you and your friends were up to down in that camp?
18 A. I worked at the camp and I know that Dusko Tadic was in the camp and
19 was the Commander of the camp, and I know that he forced me as a minor
20 to do what I should not, and that what Dusko Tadic also did, raped
21 girls and killed people and gave orders to do that.
22 Q. You described the occasion when two girls were involved and they were
23 asked to fight each other. Did you find that amusing? Were you
24 laughing at that with the other guards?
25 A. It was not amusing, because I was being forced do what I should not.
Page 5419
1 Q. So, in your statement that you gave in Sarajevo on 17th January 1995
2 that said, "We were all laughing", is that someone writing it down
3 incorrectly, not something you were actually doing?
4 A. I know that I was not laughing, that it was hard and it was terrible
5 for me do something as a minor to someone.
6 Q. You have told us about having injections.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Do you know what those injections were for?
9 A. Like drugs.
10 Q. Were you not ever told what they were for, why you were taking
11 injections?
12 A. No, I was -- I was feeling weak and sick and when I got my first
13 injection I did not know what it was and later I was feeling
14 different.
15 Q. Did you have these injections virtually every day when you worked at
16 Trnopolje?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did other guards have the same injections?
19 A. I did not see that. I cannot remember.
20 Q. It seems from what you tell us that it was the nurse who was giving
21 you the injection on most occasions, is that right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Nurse Nevenka?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Did Dr. Baja give you injections on fewer occasions?
Page 5420
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Has anyone ever given you any sort of drug test at any stage to find
3 out what you were being given?
4 A. No until -- no.
5 Q. No. Where were these injections being put in your body?
6 A. The right arm.
7 Q. In the arm?
8 A. In the vein.
9 Q. When you had these injections, what sort of effect did they have on
10 you?
11 A. I felt strong. I had no fear. I had no stage fright.
12 Q. Did you not talk about it with your other friends at the camp, as to
13 the fact that you were getting injections every day?
14 A. No, every day when I was coming to work I was getting those
15 injections.
16 Q. Did you get them at the start of your shift or at a stage during your
17 shift?
18 A. It depended when the doctor came.
19 Q. What, you would be called away from guard post 4, would you, down to
20 the ambulanta to be told that your treatment was waiting for you, or
21 would they just go up and give you your injection at guard post 4?
22 A. No, I needed those injections. When I received the first one, I
23 continued to receive them and I felt that these injections I needed
24 and the doctor would come into the office.
25 Q. So you were hooked after the first injection, were you?
Page 5421
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What I suggest to you is this, again that you have made this up as
3 part of your excuse for what you were doing?
4 A. Not true.
5 Q. You have used age, you are also using drugs as an excuse?
6 A. Not true. I was receiving drugs and a psychiatrist in the
7 Netherlands had checked that, that I was getting drugs.
8 Q. It sounds like a redaction, but it is also a convenient moment, your
9 Honour, for a break.
10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Perhaps we can handle the redaction when the
11 transcript is released, but we will keep that in mind. We will stand
12 in recess for 20 minutes.
13 (11.30 a.m.)
14 (Short Adjournment)
15 (11.50 a.m.)
16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?
17 MR. KAY: Thank you, your Honour. Witness, I would like you to look at
18 this photograph here which I tender as D39, and if you could show it
19 to Mr. Niemann? Do you recognise that photograph, witness, as being
20 taken from the approximate position of guard post 3 that you have
21 identified on the plan for us?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Thank you. Your Honour, I now offer that to the Court as D39.
24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?
25 MR. NIEMANN: No objection.
Page 5422
1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 39 will be admitted.
2 MR. KAY: So the Court can see it, can you put it on the overhead
3 projector? You have referred to there being four guard posts. Were
4 there tents in the camp in November and December when you were working
5 there?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Were all the people then held within the buildings of the camp?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. During the daytime were the prisoners allowed out of those buildings
10 and allowed within the camp grounds that you have marked on our plan?
11 A. They only came out to bring some water because they had none in the
12 camp.
13 Q. But were they allowed to sit on the steps of the school for instance,
14 to -----
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. --- sit outside?
17 A. Outside they were on the stairs, they came out and got water from
18 other houses.
19 Q. When you refer to the "other houses", do you mean the houses that
20 were outside the camp in Trnopolje?
21 A. Across the road.
22 Q. I would like you to look at this photograph as well which I tender as
23 D40. If you could show it to Mr. Niemann after it has been marked?
24 Do you identify that as being a photograph taken in the road that
25 leads to the railway station and showing the electrical substation
Page 5423
1 which is the area that guard post 1 was positioned?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Thank you. If that could be put on the monitor so that the Court
4 could see it? The electrical substation is the building in the
5 furthest section of the camp that we see in that photograph, the
6 tower, is that right?
7 A. This is the substation.
8 Q. Thank you very much indeed. Again, at guard post 1 there, was there
9 only one guard standing in that position?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Thank you. I have tendered that as D40. I now offer it to the Court
12 as D40, your Honour.
13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?
14 MR. NIEMANN: No objection, your Honours.
15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Defence 40 will be admitted.
16 MR. KAY: That photograph is taken about halfway along the camp perimeter,
17 perhaps even just in front of the dom building. Would you recognise
18 that, the position of where that photograph has been taken?
19 A. This is the photograph which could have been taken from the road.
20 Q. Yes.
21 A. So that it showed the substation and this large shed.
22 Q. Yes.
23 A. And dom is not far from there.
24 Q. That is right. I would like to ask you some questions now about your
25 routine at position 4 as a guard. Other than these incidents that you
Page 5424
1 have told us about being involved in killings and rapes, did you just
2 remain at guard post 4 or did you walk around the camp at all during
3 your duties?
4 A. We moved around about -- to about midway between guard posts.
5 Q. Was that just marching along the fence or did you move into the camp
6 nearer to the buildings and see what was happening?
7 A. We would walk near the buildings.
8 Q. Were you ever on duty at night time?
9 A. No.
10 Q. When you walked around the camp in that manner, did you see any other
11 guards other than those positioned at, say, position 1 and guard post
12 3, who were perhaps working at the camp?
13 A. No.
14 Q. For instance, were there any guards near the school or near the
15 ambulanta or the store?
16 A. Guard posts, there were only four standing aside and those four
17 guards moved in the direction of one another, close to about halfway.
18 Q. You had a rifle, did you, that was part of your duty to carry when
19 you were on duty?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Did that rifle remain with you? Did you take it home when you had
22 finished your duty?
23 A. No.
24 Q. What happened to that rifle when you finished your duty?
25 A. At the end of my shift I would turn it over to the guard who came to
Page 5425
1 replace me.
2 Q. Who would that guard generally be who received your rifle?
3 A. When I also took over that rifle and the one that I turned it over to
4 was Zoran Ergarac, Sinisa Popovic.
5 Q. Did you have any days off at all from your duty or did you have to
6 work seven days of each week?
7 A. We worked nonstop around the clock and we worked for seven days.
8 Q. Because you referred to asking for a day off from Bosko Dragicevic
9 when you gave evidence yesterday. Do you remember?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did you take that day off?
12 A. No.
13 Q. It seemed that he was not refusing you your day off, is that right?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Did you come into work the next day?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did you ask him if you could have a day off on the day after that?
18 A. No.
19 Q. When you were working here at the camp during October/November and
20 December, did any of the people leave the camp?
21 A. Excuse me, the prisoners?
22 Q. Yes.
23 A. No.
24 Q. Were any of the prisoners taken away from the camp in buses?
25 A. I cannot remember, it did not happen.
Page 5426
1 Q. You have told us about receiving these injections during the time
2 that you were on duty. Did you receive those injections in the
3 ambulanta or in the camp office?
4 A. Outside the camp, in the office.
5 Q. So, did Dr. Baja and nurse Nevenka work from the office or from the
6 ambulanta inside the camp?
7 A. They were in the office.
8 Q. Did you ever see them working from the ambulanta?
9 A. No.
10 Q. On your duty, did you ever have any breaks for lunch or for coffee?
11 Did you ever have any meal breaks?
12 A. We had our lunches at our guard posts.
13 Q. How were you fed there? Where did the food come from?
14 A. We brought it from home.
15 Q. You told us that you were not paid any money, in fact, for working at
16 Trnopolje, so how were you surviving? What did you do for money to
17 buy food?
18 A. We had our food which we brought ourselves from home.
19 Q. So where did your food come from home?
20 A. Well, we were receiving the first aid from the Red Cross and we had
21 our food which we had brought along.
22 Q. By that you mean from the place where you came from before you
23 arrived in opstina Prijedor?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. For a number of these rapes and killings that you took part in from
Page 5427
1 6th November until 25th November, you told the Court that Dusko Tadic
2 was not present, save for the two girls who were concerned with 7th
3 November, is that right?
4 A. Tadic was -- raped two girls. He was there, and after that in
5 December he raped within the perimeter of the camp when six girls were
6 raped.
7 Q. But it is right to say that you have told us that he was not there at
8 the time of killings and rapes that took place involving you, and you
9 gave us the dates of 9th or 10th November, 15th November, 18th
10 November, that he was not present when those took place?
11 A. No.
12 Q. You have told us of being involved in the removal of bodies from the
13 area of Trnopolje camp and that they being taken to places (redacted)
14 (redacted). That is right, is it not, you have been involved in
15 that, you told us, on a number of occasions?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. I would like you to look at a map now, (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted) Can you see those things?
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 5428
1 A. I do.
2 Q. Yes, and you can see (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 A. I do.
5 Q. Yes. You told us that on 5th November you were involved in a killing
6 in Trnopolje camp?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You have told us that you went to a dump site and these bodies were
9 placed there. What I would like you to do is, if you can using this
10 map, indicate for us on the overhead projector where that dump site
11 would have been where you say those bodies were placed. So, if you
12 could put the map on the overhead projector? Are you able to identify
13 where that dump site for those bodies would have been? Perhaps take
14 the projector off a bit, or move the plan up more so that the bottom
15 is further up. Thank you. Are you able to do that?
16 There is (redacted)
17 (redacted) Are you able to indicate to us -- (redacted)
18 (redacted) -- where the dump site would have been, what
19 route you took?
20 A. (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 Q. Yes.
24 A. (redacted)
25 Q. Are you able to remember the route that you took (redacted)
Page 5429
1 on this occasion when you were involved in the killing of these people
2 on 5th November?
3 A. It was also on the 10th. Excuse me, you think this place which was
4 like a dump site, the earth mover was?
5 Q. I am asking you where you took the three bodies on 5th November which
6 you described as going to a dump site, (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 Q. Yes.
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 Q. Can you identify rather more particularly where it was that you
15 described going to where there was a dump site (redacted)
16 (redacted)?
17 A. Excuse me, where they were digging, where 10 people were killed (redacted)
18 (redacted) -- perhaps that is what you have in mind?
19 Q. I am asking you about the place you said was a dump site and you
20 described there being skulls, if you can point to us the places, it
21 does not matter on which occasion, where you went where the bodies
22 were buried.
23 A. Excuse me, I do not know, according to this map (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 5430
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted) we reached the dump site.
6 Q. Right. If you can just keep your pointer there, where it would be?
7 (redacted)
8 A. Which was?
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted) where the earth mover was.
17 Q. Did you go to any other site where bodies were also buried and, if
18 so, can you indicate those on the map?
19 A. Yes. This is here, (redacted)
20 Q. Yes.
21 A. --- (redacted). This
22 is where people were buried. (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted) and that is where these people were buried, those 10 people who
25 had been killed.
Page 5431
1 Q. Any other sites that you can indicate to us?
2 A. One of the sites is (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 Q. Thank you. When you went to those sites can you remember the names
10 of the guards that you were with?
11 A. There were Zoran Karajica, Cavic, Baltic, Dragicevic and Dusko Tadic.
12 Q. Any other guards that you can name who were with you?
13 A. There was Dragan Maric who also knew about this dump site. I am
14 sorry.
15 MR. KAY: Your Honour, that is all I ask.
16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: One matter, Mr. Kay, you had tendered Defence
17 Exhibits 33, 34 and 36 and they have not been admitted. Do you wish to
18 offer them into evidence at this time?
19 MR. KAY: If I could just remind myself?
20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I will go through my notes, but I think the
21 Registrar ----
22 MR. BOS: 38.
23 MR. KAY: Yes, your Honour. I tendered all of them and offer all of them
24 to the Court.
25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Do you have them listed, Mr. Bos, as to what they
Page 5432
1 were? 33 was identified as the English statement of the witness.
2 MR. KAY: Yes, and he did not adopt it. I cannot offer that actually,
3 your Honour. I do not offer that.
4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK, then that will not be offered.
5 MR. KAY: Yes.
6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 34?
7 MR. KAY: Is a map, the plan, yes.
8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That was the one that was modified by the witness?
9 MR. KAY: Yes, I offer that.
10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 34 -- any objection, Mr. Niemann?
11 MR. NIEMANN: No, your Honour.
12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 34 will be admitted. 36?
13 MR. KAY: Is a photograph, I offer that.
14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes, that is the photograph.
15 MR. NIEMANN: No objection.
16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: No objection. 36 will be admitted. 38 is also a
17 modification of the plan by the witness.
18 MR. KAY: Yes, I offer that, your Honour.
19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection to 38, Mr. Niemann?
20 MR. NIEMANN: No objection.
21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 38 then will be admitted. Mr. Niemann, is there any
22 redirect?
23 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour.
24 Re-examined by MR. NIEMANN
25 Q. Witness, you were asked some questions about descriptions you had
Page 5433
1 given of Dusko Tadic and especially with respect to the colour of his
2 hair. I ask you to look at this statement of 17th January 1995 which
3 is in your own language and a part of the statement where it is marked
4 with a yellow marker. Can you read it to yourself and then read the
5 section where you have described the colour of the hair of Dusko
6 Tadic? Perhaps this might be shown to the Defence?
7 Witness, if you just look -- I am not tendering this, I do not
8 want to give it a number -- at that section which is marked with the
9 yellow marker and read it, firstly, to yourself? Can you just read
10 out that portion where you describe the colour of the hair of Dusko
11 Tadic, where there is a yellow sticker on the statement? Perhaps
12 before you do that, does your signature appear at the bottom of the
13 statement?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Do you recognise that as a statement that you gave at Sarajevo?
16 A. I recognise it.
17 Q. Could you just read out that part where the hair colour is described,
18 please? Take your time.
19 A. I am sorry, should I look at all of it or should I describe him or
20 just the colour of his hair?
21 Q. Just read out the section which makes reference to Dusko Tadic and
22 then lead on to the colour of his hair, the whole sentence. Can you
23 read it?
24 A. "Dusko Tadic, around 40 years of age, born in Kozarac, married, wife"
25 -- here it says "Branka". That is a bit of a problem because I do not
Page 5434
1 know what his wife's name is.
2 Q. Keep reading on.
3 A. " ... left Kozarac at the end of 1992, has thick dark hair with some
4 grey, combed upwards and black eyebrows" ----
5 Q. Thank you.
6 A. --- "with some receding hair".
7 Q. Might that be returned, please? Witness, you were asked some
8 questions about the girls being blindfolded and then the blindfolds
9 being taken off. You also gave in your evidence-in-chief evidence
10 about the girls being warned not to tell anybody about what had
11 happened?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Were they given this warning before their blindfolds were taken off
14 or after?
15 A. After.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 MR. NIEMANN: No further questions.
18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?
19 MR. KAY: Yes, your Honour, please.
20 Further cross-examined by MR. KAY
21 Q. Might I have that statement, please, that Mr. Niemann just used?
22 MR. NIEMANN: If it is going to be tendered, your Honour, I have a
23 redacted version for that purpose.
24 MR. KAY: I will not tender it. We do not have that version of the
25 statement.
Page 5435
1 Q. Witness, could you look at this statement and look at page 2 and read
2 out the second to last sentence on page 2 where that mark is with the
3 sticky? So if you turn over the page to page 2, the second to last
4 sentence of that paragraph which gives a description, does it not, of
5 Dusko Tadic? Does it say: "Dusko Tadic was sitting at a table"?
6 A. When we were receiving the aid from the International Red Cross"?
7 Q. Could you just read out that sentence? Does it say: "Dusko Tadic
8 was sitting at a table. I noticed he was thick set, clean shaven and
9 had short grey-ish hair"?
10 A. It was not grey.
11 Q. Does the statement say it?
12 A. Maybe they typed it wrong.
13 Q. Does the statement say it?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Thank you. Can I have that statement back as well, please? Do you
16 remember a list of names at the back of this statement of people who
17 worked at Trnopolje?
18 A. I remember.
19 Q. Sasa Popovic, is that right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Zoran Ergarac?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Julije Cindric?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Dusko Pilipovic?
Page 5436
1 A. I am sorry, Filipovic or Pilipovic?
2 Q. Pilipovic, Filipovic, which one would sound right to you?
3 A. Pilipovic.
4 Q. Did he work at Trnopolje?
5 A. I cannot say but I know him.
6 Q. Were you listing him as working in Trnopolje, 25 years old?
7 A. He is an acquaintance.
8 Q. In the 5th Kozarac Brigade?
9 A. I am sorry, I am sorry, that one -- they are known to me, but I -- I
10 did not see them and I did not know they worked at the camp, but those
11 were the ones who were the refugees from my side and maybe they were
12 part of the 5th Kozarac Brigade who were at Brcko.
13 Q. Did you say in the statement that you met him at the camp? If you
14 want to see the words, have a look at this page here, that you met him
15 at the camp.
16 A. I remember.
17 Q. Just read the passage about Pilipovic.
18 A. "Dusko Pilipovic, 25 years old, born in Bosanski Bojna, resident of
19 Kozarac, worked as a farmer on his father's farm before the war".
20 Describe him?
21 Q. No. Do you just say that you met him at the camp in this statement
22 and that he was in the 5th Kozarac Brigade in Brcko since the summer
23 of 1993?
24 A. I do not remember. I do not remember that he was at the camp, but I
25 know that he was in the 5th Kozarac Brigade.
Page 5437
1 Q. Dragan Ceran, was he at the camp?
2 A. I only knew him like this.
3 Q. Milorad Oljaca, was he at the camp?
4 A. Yes. I know the name because they were from my region and that some
5 of them went to school with me.
6 Q. Rade Ceran, was he at the camp?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Dragan Maric, was he at the camp?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Slobodan Mitrovic was he at the camp?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Sinisa Popovic?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Zoran Babic?
15 A. I am sorry ----
16 Q. Was he at the camp?
17 A. --- I know all these names, but I cannot recall whether they all
18 worked at the camp.
19 Q. Here it is in your own language.
20 A. I am sorry, your Honours, I was only asked whether I knew people,
21 whom I knew and where I knew them from.
22 Q. In this statement here in your own language you will see the
23 paragraph beginning "Zoran Babic", does it not say that you met him at
24 the camp?
25 A. Sinisa Popovic.
Page 5438
1 Q. And Zoran Babic?
2 A. I cannot remember.
3 Q. Does it say: "Son of Djuro, about 20 years old"?
4 MR. NIEMANN: I will object to any further reading of that statement, your
5 Honour.
6 MR. KAY: OK. But does it say in the last sentence, if you look at the
7 last -- I accept that, your Honour -- sentence: "I met him at the
8 camp"? You can see it in your own language there?
9 A. No, it does not say that I met him at the camp. Maybe it says that I
10 found him in the camp.
11 Q. Thank you. Pero Zoric, does the last sentence say that you met him
12 at the camp?
13 A. Pero Zoric was with me in Kalinovik and he was in the first motorized
14 guard Brigade.
15 Q. Does it not say ----
16 A. I know that it says that I found him in Trnopolje camp.
17 Q. Does it not say: "I met him at Trnopolje camp" in your own language,
18 this statement that you signed?
19 A. That was a mistake for Pero Zoric. He was in the Kalinovik Brigade.
20 Q. Can you explain why you said you met him at Trnopolje camp?
21 A. Maybe they typed it wrong.
22 Q. I see. Pero Repac, can you see the paragraph dealing with him? It
23 is the last sentence I am interested in. Can you see it in your own
24 language on that page signed by you, that you met him at Trnopolje
25 camp?
Page 5439
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Is that true?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Nevenko Dosen?
5 A. "Dosen".
6 Q. Did you meet him at the camp?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Mladen Stevic, did you meet him at the camp?
9 A. No, that one was in the 5th Kozarac Brigade.
10 Q. Milan Ergarac, did you meet him in the camp?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Zoran Karajica you have told us about. Zeljko Karajica you have told
13 us about. Bosko Dragicevic you have told us about. Milan Oljaca, did
14 you meet him in the camp?
15 A. That man was in the 5th Kozara Brigade.
16 Q. Can you see in this statement that you said that you met him at the
17 camp? Have a look. It is in your own language. I have actually got
18 it here.
19 A. I do not have it here.
20 Q. You see the paragraph of Milan Oljaca in your own language?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Do you see the last sentence, that you met him at the camp?
23 A. Early '93.
24 Q. You were not working at the camp then in 1993?
25 A. Here it says I found him in 1993, in the early 1993, in the camp.
Page 5440
1 Q. (redacted)?
2 A. (redacted).
3 Q. Did you meet him at the camp?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Dusko Selak?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Did you meet him at the camp?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Miodrag Trivun, did you meet him at the camp? Trivun Miodrag? If
10 you would like to look at this? Did you meet him at the camp?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Does the last sentence say you did?
13 A. It says that mid February of '93 was drafted into 5th Kozarac Brigade
14 of Prijedor and the frontline and then -- I am sorry, it is where it
15 says the camp, that is maybe they added while typing.
16 Q. It does say, does it not, that you met him at the camp?
17 A. "I found him in the camp", yes, it says.
18 Q. Have you been making up people that you have met at this camp?
19 A. No, these people, these are the people whom I knew, and I am sorry if
20 they added things while typing that they were in the camp, but those
21 people were in the 5th Kozara Brigade on the frontline. I knew all
22 these people.
23 Q. Who would have been making up things in your statement whilst typing?
24 A. Maybe they changed while they were typing, the Bosnian side, maybe
25 they said that they were in the camp rather than in the 5th Kozara
Page 5441
1 Brigade.
2 Q. Were you being told to provide names of people in the camp?
3 A. Whom I knew?
4 Q. Yes. Were you being told to give any names?
5 A. They said to give the names of people whom I knew and where I knew
6 them from.
7 Q. The next name, Stojan Draskovic, did you meet him in the camp?
8 A. I knew him. It says that I met him at the camp.
9 Q. Yes, had you met him at the camp?
10 A. No, with these -- if I met them in the camp, I only knew them.
11 Q. But how does it come to be in this statement that you were saying
12 that you met this person at the camp when you are telling us you did
13 not?
14 A. I am sorry, maybe they -- they made a mistake in typing on the
15 Bosnian side.
16 Q. The next name, (redacted)?
17 A. I know him. He did not work at the camp. He was with me in the
18 International Red Cross where it was distributed. I knew him, I know
19 him very well. He also knows Dusko Tadic. He was not at the camp.
20 Q. Just look at what you have signed to here. It says, does it not, in
21 the last sentence that you met him at the camp?
22 A. "I found him at the camp".
23 Q. Doing what at the camp?
24 A. I did not find him at the camp and nor was he at the camp, this man,
25 but he was where the aid of the International Red Cross was
Page 5442
1 distributed, where he introduced me to Bosko Dragicevic and Dusko
2 Tadic.
3 Q. You had this statement read back to you, did you not, by the
4 authorities in Sarajevo and you signed each and every page?
5 A. I signed the pages that, where I gave the names of people that I
6 knew.
7 Q. Just have a look at the pages. Every single page of that document
8 from page 1 contains your signature at the bottom.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. This was an interview conducted in your own language?
11 A. It was typed in my own language and then they were typing it.
12 Q. Yes, and you were just making up names of people whom you had seen at
13 Trnopolje, were you not? You have put down people here saying they
14 were at Trnopolje who were not there at all?
15 A. I know the people who were not in the Trnopolje camp, and people who
16 -- I also know the people who worked at the Trnopolje camp.
17 Q. Here you are saying now that you did not find these people at the
18 camp or you did not meet them at the camp, and you have given all
19 their names?
20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, I do not want to cut you have off, but you
21 have asked and it has been answered several times.
22 MR. KAY: I am conscious of that.
23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: The witness says, at least, that he was asked to
24 give the names of people he knows.
25 MR. KAY: Yes.
Page 5443
1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: He gave them. On the statement, for some of them,
2 it says they were found in the camp and he disputes that.
3 MR. KAY: Yes.
4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I understand your point, but I think you need to
5 move on to another area.
6 MR. KAY: I am much obliged. [To the witness]: Let us look at that name
7 after (redacted), is it Miroslav Beronja? Do you say you met him
8 at the camp?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Did you meet him at the camp? Did you meet Miroslav Beronja at the
11 camp?
12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You need to answer. Did you meet him at the camp?
13 THE WITNESS: I only know him, no.
14 MR. KAY: So, what has happened here in this statement? Has someone made
15 it up for you saying that you met him there?
16 A. I tell you, maybe the Bosnian side typed it wrongly. I apologise. I
17 know people who were not there. I know that they are the refugees
18 from my region whom I know, who are in the 5th Kozara Brigade, and
19 some were in the camp as I gave that earlier who was in the camp
20 working.
21 Q. Well, the next name, Predrag Vajgic, did you meet him in the camp?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Right. Well, perhaps you would like to look at the second to last
24 sentence. Does it say: "I heard from Zoran Ergarac and Sinisa Popovic
25 that Vajgic committed many rapes and murders. He used to arrive at
Page 5444
1 the camp drunk, take people out to rape them and kill them in the
2 white house. I met him at the camp"? Can you see those sentences
3 dealing with Zoran Ergarac?
4 A. "Zoran Popovic, Sinisa Popovic, I heard that Vajgic had committed a
5 large number of murders and rapes, that he used to come to the camp at
6 night and drank."
7 Q. And the rest.
8 A. "He took out women and girls so as to rape them and kill them in the
9 white house. He is at present at Brcko frontline. I found him in the
10 camp.” After midnight that Predrag Vajgic,
11 I do not know whether he came to the camp at night time. I did not
12 work then nor do I know that he did all this.
13 Q. Well, did you just say that you found him in the camp at night time?
14 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, I object to that. He did not say that at all.
15 MR. KAY: Quite right.
16 THE WITNESS: Excuse me, I did not work nights.
17 MR. KAY: You found him at the camp ----
18 THE WITNESS: Excuse me, this Vajgic I know him, but I did not find him at
19 night in the camp because I did not work nights.
20 MR. KAY: Does the last sentence of that statement about Vajgic say that
21 you met him at the camp?
22 A. It does.
23 Q. You have said in this statement that you did discuss with Zoran and
24 Popovic then what this man was doing?
25 A. Popovic?
Page 5445
1 Q. Did you find him at the camp, Vajgic?
2 A. Predrag Vajgic?
3 Q. Yes.
4 A. That one was not in the camp.
5 Q. Did you hear from Ergarac and Popovic that he had committed many
6 rapes and murders?
7 A. They talked about that man, but I do not know whether he did that and
8 whether that was true. I did not see him with my own eyes.
9 Q. Did they talk about him committing murders and rapes?
10 A. They talked about it.
11 Q. Yes. I thought you did not discuss with Ergarac and the other guards
12 you knew what had been happening?
13 A. In my time.
14 Q. If you go on, Ranko Mitrovic who is on this page. (Handed) Ranko
15 Mitrovic, did you meet him at the camp?
16 A. Excuse me, your Honour, I know it says that all of them were in the
17 camp, but they are men of the 5th Kozara Brigade who went to the
18 front. Perhaps this was in typing that the Bosnian side put it
19 wrongly and perhaps they added they were at the camp. I only know
20 these people.
21 Q. Well, this list gives Bosko Dragicevic, Milan Cavic, they were not
22 all at the front with the 5th Kozara Brigade, were they?
23 A. They were not. They were in the camp.
24 Q. Zeljko Karajica was not in the 5th Kozara Brigade or Zoran Karajica?
25 A. They were in the camp. They were not in the 5th Kozara Brigade.
Page 5446
1 They were not on the frontline. They were in the camp who committed
2 and performed murders and rapes.
3 Q. In fact this document, which is in your own language, says before
4 this list that: "Among the policemen and guards who were there at the
5 time I know the following ... " If you go back to the beginning of the
6 list, if you look at page 23 here. (Handed). I have put a sticker at
7 the start of the sentence. What does that sentence say?
8 A. It says: "Apart from me, there were about 20 guards working at the
9 Trnopolje camp, 15 military police."
10 Q. What does the rest of the paragraph say?
11 A. That: "The others were civilian policemen who came from the village
12 of Petrov Gaj and Omarska."
13 Q. And the next sentence?
14 A. "These civilian police used to come to the camp at night together
15 with guards, with guard, and a smaller number of military police and
16 among the guards" [INTERPRETER: We are very sorry, but those cases are
17 all wrong. It is simply incomprehensible].
18 Q. I think it is not being read properly by you, Witness. Are you
19 changing the language in the statement in any way?
20 A. "Among the guards there were also military police. I know the
21 following ... "
22 Q. Then you go on to give the list, do you not, of names?
23 A. They were taking the names of people I knew and people who worked in
24 the camp.
25 Q. Right. So that it is clearly put I will say this to you. Have you
Page 5447
1 just given those names of people that you have made up allegations
2 about them in Trnopolje camp?
3 A. People I do know and some who worked in the camp and people who were
4 on the positions of the 5th Kozara Brigade, this is what the Bosnian
5 side requested, what people I knew and what people worked at the camp.
6 Q. On the next page do you say, "Sasa Popovic committed a number of
7 murders and rapes before I arrived at the camp"? Do you see the
8 paragraph beginning, "Sasa Popovic", the last sentence? "Dragan Maric
9 told me that Sasa Popovic had committed a number of murders and rapes
10 before I had arrived at the camp"?
11 A. Because he worked at the camp.
12 Q. Was that true, that Dragan Maric told you that?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Zoran Ergarac, did you say you heard from Sinisa Popovic that Ergarac
15 committed a number of rapes and murders in Trnopolje camp before I
16 arrived"?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Was that true?
19 A. I do not know.
20 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, I object. Could we be told what is true,
21 whether the rapes were committed or whether the question was asked?
22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I will overrule your objection. Was it true?
23 MR. KAY: Was it true?
24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: If you had objected, Mr. Niemann, that this whole
25 line of testimony was beyond redirect we would have recessed 25
Page 5448
1 minutes ago, because you only asked him in the statement what was the
2 colour of his hair. Go ahead, Mr. Kay.
3 MR. KAY: Was it true?
4 A. Yes.
5 MR. KAY: Your Honour that is all I ask. May I say I had not seen this
6 document before, we do not have it, which is why it came in.
7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. Well, it was clearly beyond redirect but that
8 is OK. We have very liberal rules. Mr. Niemann, is there any
9 re-redirect?
10 MR. NIEMANN: No, your Honour, but I ask that the statement be returned.
11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. I just have one question while the statement is
12 being returned. Mr. Usher, would you get the statement so we can just
13 move along.
14 Examined by the Court.
15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Sir, you worked in a guard post, as I understand it,
16 is that correct, while you were at Trnopolje?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. There were four guard posts as you have described them, is that
19 correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. You worked from 7, was it 7 a.m. to 7 p.m.?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. So would there have been another shift coming behind you to work from
24 7 p.m. to 7 a.m. in the guard post?
25 A. Yes.
Page 5449
1 Q. Were there other guards at the camp, though, who did not work in
2 guard posts?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Were there any other guards who just guarded the prisoners?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Because otherwise there would only be eight guards at Trnopolje camp,
7 and certainly there were more than eight guards, were there not?
8 A. There were more, but I did not know them.
9 Q. These other guards who you did not know, they were performing other
10 duties, I gather, other than assigned to a guard post?
11 A. No.
12 Q. What were they doing or do you not know?
13 A. I do not know what they did.
14 Q. So, you did not have any meetings with the other guards, any kind of
15 regular meetings with guards, who did not work in guard posts?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Who would you take your orders from on a daily basis?
18 A. To commit murders and rape?
19 Q. No, to perform your duties in the guard post? Did you have ----
20 A. Bosko Dragicevic.
21 Q. That is the person whom you testified got you the job, is that
22 correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You have testified that you believe Mr. Tadic was the Commander of
25 Trnopolje camp. Why do you believe that?
Page 5450
1 A. He was the Commander because he issued orders to kill the people and
2 to rape girls.
3 Q. But he never gave you any orders on a daily basis, did he, tell you
4 which guard post to go to, that kind of thing, did he?
5 A. Yes, Bosko Dragicevic was his deputy. Tadic was only asked whether
6 something could be done to an inmate or a girl and that that people
7 were not to be let free.
8 Q. That is why you believe that he was Bosko's superior?
9 A. Yes.
10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann, do you have additional questions?
11 MR. NIEMANN: No, your Honour.
12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, do you have additional questions?
13 MR. KAY: No, your Honour.
14 JUDGE STEPHEN: Just arising out of what you have been saying, Zoran
15 Karajica and Cavic, they were not one of the eight guards, were they,
16 in the guard post?
17 A. No, they would come to the camp. With Bosko Dragicevic they came and
18 did those things, committed those killings and rapes and be present.
19 Q. They were not working full time in the camp then?
20 A. No.
21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann, do you have additional questions?
22 MR. NIEMANN: No, your Honour.
23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?
24 MR. KAY: No, thank you, your Honour.
25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Regarding the transcript for L, since this is in
Page 5451
1 closed session, we have asked as our usual procedure that the
2 transcripts be reviewed and any corrections you may have you get those
3 to us as quickly as possible. If you can get the corrections to us by
4 Friday at 5 p.m. -- I understand you are leaving, Mr. Wladimiroff --
5 that would be helpful, and then they can be gotten to the Witnesses
6 Unit for their review before we release the transcript.
7 Is there any objection to this witness being permanently
8 excused?
9 MR. KAY: Your Honour, I would like to keep him still under command of the
10 Court, so to speak, not to release him.
11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann?
12 MR. NIEMANN: I have no objection, your Honour.
13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Sir, you are free to leave. You are still under the
14 control of this Tribunal, in that you may be recalled as a witness.
15 So you should make yourself available.
16 We will stand in recess for an hour and a half for lunch.
17 (1.24 p.m.)
18 (Luncheon Adjournment)
19
20 (2.55 p.m.) PRIVATE
21 (Open session)
22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We are now in open session continuing. Mr. Niemann,
23 would you call your next witness or is it Mr. Tieger?
24 MR. TIEGER: Yes, your Honour. Thank you. The next witness will be very
25 brief and will be in English. The next witness is Grant McIntosh
Page 5452
1 junior.
2 MR. GRANT THOMAS McINTOSH JUNIOR, called.
3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Sir, would you please take the oath that has been
4 handed to you?
5 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare I will speak the truth, the whole truth
6 and nothing but the truth.
7 (The witness was sworn)
8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Fine. Thank you. You may be seated.
9 Examined by MR. TIEGER
10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger?
11 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, your Honour. Can you state your full name,
12 please?
13 A. Grant Thomas McIntosh, junior.
14 Q. Mr. McIntosh, you are presently an investigator for the Office of the
15 Prosecutor of the International Criminal Tribunal?
16 A. That is correct, sir.
17 Q. How long have you worked in that position?
18 A. I am seconded from my government to the Tribunal. I have been here
19 since June 1994.
20 Q. Have you previously worked as a criminal investigator?
21 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. For how many years?
23 A. The 28th of this month, I will be starting my 19th year.
24 Q. With what agency were you previously working?
25 A. The United States Naval, Criminal Investigative Service.
Page 5453
1 Q. In that capacity, were you a sworn law enforcement officer?
2 A. Yes, sir, a civilian special agent.
3 Q. Mr. McIntosh, did you recently complete an investigative mission to
4 Bosnia and elsewhere?
5 A. Yes, sir, I did.
6 Q. What were the dates of that mission?
7 A. 4th August through 11th August.
8 Q. During the course of that mission were you in opstina Prijedor?
9 A. Yes, I was.
10 Q. While in Prijedor, did you visit and photograph part of the site
11 which was the former detention camp at Trnopolje?
12 A. Yes, sir, I did.
13 Q. Specifically, did you photograph the area of the dom or hall in a
14 building housing a store and a medical facility?
15 A. Yes, sir, I did.
16 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, may I have this photograph marked as Exhibit 315
17 for identification, please? Mr. McIntosh, do you recognise this
18 photo?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What it depicts?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. What is that?
23 A. That is a photograph of a part of the structure of the dom that
24 housed the store and the medical facilities.
25 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I would tender this photograph for admission and
Page 5454
1 ask that it be placed on the overhead projector.
2 MR. KAY: No, objection your Honour.
3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 315 will be admitted.
4 MR. TIEGER: First of all, Mr. McIntosh, how do you know that there was a
5 store and a medical facility there?
6 A. Upon arrival at the front of the building on the street side, which
7 is located right here, there was a store that was opening and
8 functioning as a store at that time.
9 Q. How were you able to determine there was a medical facility of some
10 sort in that area?
11 A. By looking through this middle window, I could see that there was
12 some sort of a medical office with medical supplies.
13 Q. You took this picture from the parking lot of the dom?
14 A. That is correct, sir.
15 Q. From what part of the parking lot, where would you be?
16 A. Approximately in front of the main entrances to the dom with the
17 large hall area.
18 Q. What date was this photograph taken?
19 A. On 9 August at about 4.30 in the afternoon.
20 Q. This photograph, as we are looking at this photograph, we are looking
21 in what direction?
22 A. Towards the town of Kozarac.
23 Q. Would your back at the time this photograph was taken, therefore, be
24 to the Trnopolje railroad station?
25 A. That is correct, sir.
Page 5455
1 Q. Did you also take photographs from the position of the two windows to
2 the left side of the building?
3 A. That is correct, sir.
4 Q. Do those photographs also depict this parking lot?
5 A. Yes, sir, they do.
6 Q. Are there landmarks or identifying features in this photograph,
7 Exhibit 315, which would help us identify portions of the parking lot
8 in the other photograph?
9 A. Yes, sir, there are several marks, what I would call divots in the
10 asphalt parking lot, one here, one here, and there is like an oil mark
11 here. There is also a basketball backboard that is depicted in the
12 photograph.
13 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, may I have this composite photograph, montage
14 photograph, marked as Exhibit 316 for identification? Mr. McIntosh, do
15 you recognise this montage of photographs?
16 A. Yes, sir, it is a bracketed photograph, a series of three
17 photographs that are put together.
18 Q. Do they depict the area of the dom parking lot and the surrounding
19 area, including a portion of the hall building itself?
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 MR. TIEGER: I tender 316 for admission, your Honour.
22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?
23 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.
24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 316 will be admitted.
25 MR. TIEGER: May that be placed on the overhead projector as well? First
Page 5456
1 of all, Mr. McIntosh, can you point out, identify, those points of
2 reference or identifying features in the parking lot which you
3 indicated earlier?
4 A. Yes, sir. The first one would be this divot here in the asphalt
5 parking lot that I mentioned. This would be the second one. This
6 would be the oil that is on the ground and here is the basketball hoop
7 with backboard.
8 Q. How was this photograph or bracketed photographs taken? Where were
9 you standing?
10 A. I went to the first window that was shown on the first photograph to
11 the left and put my back to the window as if I was, like, looking out
12 the window, and would take a series of photographs starting from the
13 left to the right with my shoulder, bracket the photograph, second
14 photograph to third photograph.
15 Q. Were you able to get inside the building?
16 A. No, sir, we were not.
17 Q. Can you point out for us the dom or hall building?
18 A. That would be -- the entrance to the dom hall building would be here,
19 sir.
20 Q. OK. Your Honour, may I have this next series of bracketed
21 photographs marked as 317 for identification? Mr. McIntosh, do you
22 recognise these photographs, Exhibit 317, as being a set of four
23 bracketed photographs that you took with your back to the second
24 window?
25 A. Yes, sir. I recognise them and I believe actually there are five.
Page 5457
1 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I would tender 317 for admission.
2 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.
3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 317 will be admitted.
4 MR. TIEGER: Once again, Mr. McIntosh, can you point out the points of
5 reference in the parking lot which indicate where we are relative to
6 the picture that shows the medical supply and store building?
7 A. Again, the first two in would be the divot in the asphalt here, No.
8 1, No. 2 would be here, the oil spot, and again the basketball
9 backboard.
10 Q. If I could have 315 placed briefly on the Elmo? Just to clarify,
11 sir, 317, the series of five photographs, was taken with your back to
12 which window? Can you point it out?
13 A. The centre window here, sir.
14 Q. The previous series of bracketed photographers was taken from where?
15 A. This window here, sir.
16 Q. Could we have 317 back on the Elmo? I am sorry. Mr. McIntosh, during
17 your approximately 20 years of investigative experience, have you had
18 many occasions to take photographs of various scenes?
19 A. Yes, sir, I have.
20 Q. Although the camera, obviously, captures the details of objects seen,
21 does it sometimes fail to accurately reflect the dimensions and
22 distances as perceived by the human eye?
23 A. Yes, sir.
24 Q. In your experience, what kind of effect can be seen?
25 A. The type and size of the lenses that you might utilise, maybe the
Page 5458
1 angles from which a photograph is shot, can make the image or the
2 objects in a photograph appear either closer or further away than what
3 they actually are.
4 Q. Did that effect occur here?
5 A. Yes, sir, it did.
6 Q. In what way?
7 A. The objects, everything here, appears to be further in distance then
8 when you are actually standing there.
9 Q. You were at the scene, at this area, last week, is that right?
10 A. That is correct, sir.
11 Q. Can you estimate for us the distance from the wall at which you were
12 standing, the window at which you were standing, to the end of the
13 parking lot?
14 A. I would estimate approximately 60 feet or so which I understand is
15 about 18.5 metres.
16 Q. In terms of this courtroom, what would a rough approximation be, if
17 you can make it, of the distance of that parking lot?
18 A. Probably from inside this doorway over here to my right to probably
19 inside the other doorway over here to my left. Approximately the same,
20 maybe a little bit further.
21 Q. If one were to be at approximately the area of the entrance to the
22 dom and then move perhaps three or four metres in the direction of the
23 corner of the parking lot seen at the left of the picture,
24 approximately how far would that be from the hall at which you were
25 standing where the window was?
Page 5459
1 A. I would have to say approximately 45, 40 to 45 feet.
2 Q. Mr. McIntosh, during your time in Prijedor did you also visit the
3 Omarska mine, the former site of the camp?
4 A. Yes, sir, I did.
5 Q. Did you take photographs there?
6 A. Yes, sir, I did.
7 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, may I have these two photographs marked as
8 Exhibits 318A and B?
9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: May I ask one question, Mr. McIntosh, to understand
10 your testimony? Regarding then Exhibit 317, if one were to move how
11 many feet from the front of the dom over to the left towards the
12 basketball court, and then how many feet would it then be from the
13 wall of the medical centre to that place? Tell me that again, please?
14 A. If I understand the original question, if you -- approximately nine
15 feet or so from where the start of the dom, at the entrance to the
16 dom, out into the parking lot towards ----
17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I am sorry, you say nine feet what?
18 A. If one was to move approximately nine feet or so, nine to 10 feet,
19 from the entrance towards this far corner, it is what -- and then I
20 would say it was approximately 40 to 45 feet, without knowing exactly
21 where someone was standing.
22 Q. Then 40 to 45 feet from where?
23 A. From the wall, ma'am.
24 Q. From the wall of the medical centre?
25 A. Right where I am standing taking the photograph.
Page 5460
1 Q. That is where you were. You were taking the photograph from the wall
2 of the medical centre, were you not?
3 A. Yes, ma'am.
4 Q. So if you move nine feet or so from the entrance of the dom going
5 towards the basketball, you then become 40 to 45 feet from the wall?
6 I do not understand how that is possible. Maybe I am missing ----
7 MR. TIEGER: If I could really clarify that, your Honour?
8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: --- because I thought it was 60 feet normally from
9 the wall to the entrance to the dom.
10 MR. TIEGER: To the end of the parking lot, I think the question was.
11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Tell me again because I do not have the dimensions
12 correctly. Speak more loudly for me. I guess, we have been in closed
13 session and I think maybe I am used to it being closer.
14 MR. TIEGER: I apologise for the confusion, your Honour. First of all,
15 Mr. McIntosh, understanding that these are approximations, standing
16 from the wall of the medical facility to the end of the parking lot,
17 is that a distance that you approximated as about 60 feet?
18 A. I would say approximately 60 feet, sir.
19 Q. Then the second question was -- we can also see the entrance to the
20 dom in this picture?
21 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. Then again the question was, if one were to move approximately three
23 to four metres, and again roughly approximating the distance, in the
24 direction of the corner of the parking lot, as you pointed out before,
25 then you would estimate that distance, based on your presence there
Page 5461
1 last week, as being approximately 40 to 45 feet?
2 A. That is correct, sir, recognising that the parking lot went a little
3 bit further beyond than the doors, about 15 feet.
4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Where is the entrance to the parking lot?
5 A. The entrance would be right through here, ma'am, right through here.
6 But the parking lot would extend to the other side of these columns.
7 Q. I see.
8 MR. TIEGER: Mr. McIntosh, do you have those photographs from Omarska?
9 A. Yes, sir.
10 Q. Can you tell us what 318A and B depict?
11 A. The photographs were taken outside of the large hangar, demper garage
12 area, at the entrance to the garage doors.
13 Q. These are the series of large garage doors on the other side of the
14 entrance to the hangar building?
15 A. That is correct, sir.
16 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I would tender 318A and B for admission.
17 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.
18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 318A and B will be admitted.
19 MR. TIEGER: If B may be placed by its side? Mr. McIntosh, does the
20 grate shown in 318A extend for the full length of that side of the
21 hangar building, as far as you recall?
22 A. As far as I could see, yes, sir.
23 Q. 318B just shows a close up of that grate?
24 A. Yes, sir, the photograph downward.
25 Q. Incidentally, Mr. McIntosh, when you visited the Omarska camp, before
Page 5462
1 you visited the Omarska camp, had you seen photographs and videos of
2 camp?
3 A. Yes, sir, I had.
4 Q. When you actually visited the camp, did you notice anything about the
5 distorting effect you spoke of earlier?
6 A. The first thing, I was really surprised to see that the white house
7 was as close to the back of the demper garage area as it actually was.
8 From the photographs that I had seen before, I had always envisioned
9 it to be much further away.
10 Q. Was there any other portion of the camp which struck you in the same
11 way?
12 A. The pista between the cafeteria of the building and the demper
13 building, to me, in photographs it looked much larger than when I was
14 standing there and observing it.
15 Q. If we could return just a moment to 316, please? Just to clarify,
16 Mr. McIntosh, we see the columns that indicate from where we see the
17 portion of the entry area to the dom, is that right?
18 A. Yes, sir, right here.
19 Q. The parking lot extends a little bit further than the entrance?
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. Then when you add the nine or so feet, I guess nine to 12 feet,
22 whatever, would be, in the question I asked you, you would estimate
23 the distance then would be approximately 45 feet from the wall of the
24 medical building?
25 A. Coming out from the doors to the distance that you asked, I would say
Page 5463
1 then about 40 to 45 feet, depending upon where the individual or the
2 person would be standing.
3 Q. That is all I have, your Honour. Thank you.
4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?
5 Cross-examined by MR. KAY
6 MR. KAY: Just to assist me, did you use a 35 millimetre lens on your
7 camera?
8 A. Yes, sir, I did -- excuse me, a 35 millimetre camera. It was a 35 to
9 80 zoom lens.
10 Q. Did you use the zoom lens on any of these photographs you have shown
11 us of the parking lot (as it has been described) in front of the dom
12 building at Trnopolje?
13 A. Yes, sir, but I could not tell you the exact -- what exactly it was,
14 what measurement it would have been, from the 50 -- between the 35 to
15 80. I was just framing the picture.
16 Q. I understand. So you moved it up from 35 millimetres to somewhere in
17 between 35 to 80?
18 A. It was somewhere in between, sir.
19 Q. Thank you very much. In relation to these distances from the wall of
20 the ambulanta building, did you measure those?
21 A. No, sir, I did not.
22 Q. So these are sites that you are giving by eye and judgment?
23 A. In this particular case, I did not measure because I was not tasked
24 to, sir. I was just tasked to take a photograph.
25 Q. I understand.
Page 5464
1 MR. KAY: Thank you. No further questions.
2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger?
3 MR. TIEGER: Nothing further.
4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection to this witness being -- you have a
5 question?
6 Examined by the Court
7 JUDGE STEPHEN: Witness, you have talked about distortion that photography
8 can produce. Would you have a look at the model in front of you of
9 Omarska? Perhaps you can stand up?
10 A. Yes, sir.
11 Q. Have a good look at it. Does it accurately represent, for instance,
12 the position of the white house and also the size of the pista?
13 A. I would say that it accurately represents that. Again, it just
14 appears to me that the white house seems a little further back.
15 Q. Does that mean that you think it does accurately represent?
16 A. Yes, sir, it does accurately represent. I am trying to look over it.
17 JUDGE STEPHEN: Thank you.
18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger?
19 MR. TIEGER: No, your Honour, nothing further.
20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?
21 MR. KAY: No, thank you, your Honour.
22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to Mr. McIntosh being
23 permanently excused?
24 MR. KAY: No, there is not, your Honour.
25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Sir, you are permanently excused. You are free to
Page 5465
1 leave. Thank you very much for coming.
2 (The witness withdrew)
3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Miss Hollis?
4 MISS HOLLIS: Thank you. The Prosecution calls Mr. Robert Reid.
5 MR. ROBERT REID, called.
6 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole
7 truth and nothing but the truth.
8 (The witness was sworn)
9 Examined by MISS HOLLIS
10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you, sir. You may be seated.
11 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
12 MISS HOLLIS: Would you please state your full name?
13 A. My full name is Robert William Reid, spelt R-E-I-D.
14 Q. What is your current position?
15 A. I am an investigative team leader at the Office of the Prosecutor,
16 the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia.
17 Q. How long have you held this position?
18 A. Since 6th June 1994.
19 Q. What are your duties in that position?
20 A. My principal duties are to lead direct and co-ordinate all
21 investigations which are allocated to the team by the chief of
22 investigations.
23 Q. For what organisation did you work before taking your current
24 position?
25 A. I was with the New South Wales police service in Australia and I am
Page 5466
1 currently on leave without pay.
2 Q. How long did you work for that organisation?
3 A. In December of this year it will be 21 years.
4 Q. What types of investigative work have you been involved in in the
5 past?
6 A. Since about 1978, I have been involved in criminal investigation and
7 that covers the whole sphere of criminal investigation from murder,
8 sexual assaults down to simple stealings.
9 Q. What prior experience have you had with war crimes investigations?
10 A. In July of 1987, I was seconded from the New South Wales police to
11 the Federal Attorney General's office where I was attached to the
12 special investigations unit which was investigating allegations that
13 persons had entered Australia at the conclusion of World War II, who
14 had committed serious crimes during the conflict of World War II in
15 the period 1941 to 1945. I remained in that position until 1991 when I
16 returned back to the New South Wales police. There was a period,
17 however, between 1991 and 1992 where I worked at the committal
18 proceedings and trial of a person who had been charged.
19 Q. Mr. Reid, what duties have you performed in relation to the Office of
20 the Prosecutor investigation of the accused in this case, Dusko Tadic?
21 A. I have been the lead investigator in relation to the investigation of
22 the accused. In addition to that, I am the investigator in relation
23 to the investigations relating to opstina Prijedor and Bosanska
24 Krajina, the area of Bosanska Krajina in the former Yugoslavia.
25 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, Mr. Reid has asked to be able to use a short
Page 5467
1 aide memoire during his testimony. I have provided that to the
2 Defence and asked them if they have any objection to that. I would
3 ask that he be allowed to use the aide memoire.
4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: No objection, Mr. Wladimiroff?
5 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No, your Honour.
6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You may use it, Mr. Reid.
7 THE WITNESS: Thank you, your Honour.
8 MISS HOLLIS: Mr. Reid, in your capacity as lead investigator for this
9 case, were you the team leader of a mission that went to opstina
10 Prijedor in February/March 1996?
11 A. Yes, I was.
12 Q. Were other OTP personnel part of that mission as well as other
13 investigative personnel?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Did personnel from the team visit various locations in opstina
16 Prijedor, including the sites of the former detention camps at
17 Omarska, Keraterm and Trnopolje?
18 A. Yes, we did.
19 Q. During that mission did the team photograph and video tape various
20 locations in opstina Prijedor, including the former detention camps?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Did the team also seize evidence from various locations in opstina
23 Prijedor, including from the former detention camps?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Mr. Reid, I would first like to ask you some questions about evidence
Page 5468
1 that has already been admitted in this case. At my request, did you
2 review Prosecution Exhibits 232, 239A and B, 240, 248, 250A, 251, 256,
3 257, 258, 259, 260, 261, 262, 263, 266, 267, 270, 272A and B, 273A,
4 279, 312 and 314 which were photographs of various locations at the
5 former Omarska camp?
6 A. Yes, I did.
7 Q. When were those photographs taken?
8 A. They were taken on the mission to opstina Prijedor between 19th
9 February and 4th March 1996.
10 Q. At my request, did you review Prosecution Exhibit 229 which is a
11 video of various locations at the former Omarska camp?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. When was that video taken?
14 A. That was taken on the mission again between 19th February and 4th
15 March 1996.
16 Q. At my request, did you review Prosecution Exhibit 130A, floor plans
17 of the large hangar building at Ormaska camp?
18 A. Yes, I did.
19 Q. Who prepared that Exhibit?
20 A. That Exhibit was prepared by Miss Kate Pearce, the analyst on the
21 team.
22 Q. From what source or sources was that Exhibit prepared?
23 A. They were taken from a set of plans that were seized at the former
24 Omarska mine.
25 Q. These were seized during your team's mission to opstina Prijedor?
Page 5469
1 A. Yes, between 19th February and 4th March 1996.
2 Q. While you were at the Ormaska camp, did you enter the buildings
3 there?
4 A. Yes, I did.
5 Q. In this large hangar building on the model before you, were you able
6 to determine how well sound carries in that building?
7 A. Yes. Sound travelled quite easily within that large hangar building.
8 In fact, we carried out a number of tests while we were in there,
9 where I went to particular rooms and areas of that large hangar
10 building and another member of the team simulated the calling of
11 names. The room, one particular room that I went to was room 15 which
12 was on the first level. I also did it from the internal stairway. I
13 also did it from a room which has been called the electrical workshop
14 which is on the ground floor. The noise travelled quite easily and I
15 could hear quite distinctly what was being said.
16 In addition to that, while I was working in the area upstairs
17 I could often hear people talking, laughing. I could hear noises and
18 doors closing.
19 Q. While you were at the camp, did you take measurements at various
20 locations in the camp?
21 A. Yes, I took two particular sets of measurements. I measured the pista
22 area, or what has been referred to as the pista area, which is the
23 area between the large hangar building and the administration
24 building, and I took a measurement from the corner of the hangar
25 building closest to the pista across to the front door of the white
Page 5470
1 house.
2 Q. The measurements that you took on the pista, what were the
3 measurements?
4 A. From the wall of the administration building -- perhaps I can
5 indicate where I took it?
6 Q. If you would, please?
7 A. From approximately this point here on the model across to this wall
8 of the large hangar building was 32 metres and 37 centimetres.
9 Q. While you were at the camp, were there concrete flower pots of a sort
10 in that pista area?
11 A. There were. There was a set of concrete flower boxes which ran along
12 the pista in this direction and ran along in this direction. I
13 measured between those two points and the distance was 28 metres and
14 78 centimetres.
15 Q. So you measured from the inside of the flower pots on one side to the
16 inside of the pots across the pista?
17 A. That is correct.
18 Q. What other measurements did you take?
19 A. Yes, I took one other measurement. Perhaps I could walk around to
20 indicate that? I took a measurement from this corner across to the
21 front door of the white house, and that distance was 37 centimetres --
22 36 metres, I am sorry, and 75 centimetres.
23 Q. You pointed, I believe, to the corner of the hangar building that is
24 closest to the
25 restaurant?
Page 5471
1 A. Yes, that is correct, across to the front door of the white house.
2 Q. Mr. Reid, if you could come around again, please? You have mentioned
3 some room numbers, and if you could show us what room numbers you are
4 talking about?
5 A. Yes, if I can remove the .....
6 Q. Please. First of all, Mr. Reid, you mentioned a room 15. Was that a
7 room number that was marked on the door?
8 A. Yes, in the camp there were two room 15s. Room 15, if I can
9 distinguish as B14, and there was also another room 15 which was
10 marked in texta colour on the door which was B7, which also
11 incorporated B8, B23 and B7 and a corridor B7 as well. That was marked
12 in texta colour, and that room was at the top of the external
13 staircase. Stencilled on that door in white was the room 7.
14 The room that I did the test in relation to the noise within
15 the hangar was at B14 -- if I can just take the top here off -- the
16 internal stairwell which is marked A15 on this model and the room, the
17 electrical workshop, which is marked A17 on this model.
18 Q. Thank you Mr. Reid. At my request, did you also review Prosecution
19 Exhibits 201, 227 and 228 which are photographs of various locations
20 at the former Keraterm detention camp?
21 A. Yes, I did.
22 Q. When were those photographs taken?
23 A. They were taken on the mission to Prijedor between 19th February and
24 4th March 1996.
25 Q. At my request, did you review Prosecution Exhibits 204, 205, 277A,
Page 5472
1 301, 302, 303, 304, 308 and 310 which are photographs of various
2 locations at Trnopolje?
3 A. Yes, I did.
4 Q. When were those photographs taken?
5 A. They were taken on the mission as well between 19th February and 4th
6 March 1996.
7 Q. At my request, did you review Prosecution Exhibits 203, 296 and 307
8 which are video tapes of various locations at Trnopolje?
9 A. Yes, I did.
10 Q. When were those video tapes taken?
11 A. They were again taken between 19th February and 4th March 1996 on the
12 mission to Prijedor.
13 Q. While you were at Trnopolje or while you were in opstina Prijedor,
14 did you measure the distance from Kozarac to the entry of what was the
15 former Trnopolje detention camp?
16 A. Yes, I did.
17 Q. What was that distance?
18 A. The distance from the main Prijedor/Banja Luka highway to the
19 entrance of what was in the summer of 1992 the entrance to the
20 Trnopolje camp was 5.2 kilometres.
21 Q. If we could have Prosecution Exhibit 280, please, provided to the
22 witness? Mr. Reid, if you could take a moment to orient yourself on
23 that plan and then if it could be placed on the overhead projector?
24 A. Yes. The road that I took the measurement from is this road
25 Prijedor/Banja Luka which is depicted in the red colour, along here,
Page 5473
1 Kozarusa, and then down and I came along this yellow road leading
2 from Kozarac, down to approximately this area here where the entrance
3 to the camp is. That is the Trnopolje/Kozarac road. That was 5.2
4 kilometre distance.
5 Q. So the 5.2 kilometres was from the intersection of the Prijedor/Banja
6 Luka road following this yellow route down to the entry to the camp?
7 A. That is correct.
8 Q. At my request, did you also review Prosecution Exhibits 197, 198,
9 199, 200, 202, 204, 205, 210, 212, 222A, B and C, 224, 237A, 299 and
10 300 which are photographs of various locations in the town of Kozarac?
11 A. Yes, I did.
12 Q. When were those photographs taken?
13 A. They were taken on the mission to opstina Prijedor between 19th
14 February and 4th March 1996.
15 Q. At my request, did you review Prosecution Exhibits 107 and 195, video
16 tapes of various locations in the town of Kozarac?
17 A. Yes, I did.
18 Q. When were those video tapes taken?
19 A. Again on the mission to opstina Prijedor, between 19th February and
20 4th March 1996.
21 Q. At my request, did you review Prosecution Exhibit 238A and B,
22 photographs of Benkovac?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. When were those photographs taken?
25 A. Between 19th February and 4th March 1996 on the mission to opstina
Page 5474
1 Prijedor.
2 Q. At my request, did you also review Prosecution Exhibit 284A through E
3 which are photographs of a location in the village of Sivci?
4 A. Yes, I did.
5 Q. When were those photographers taken?
6 A. Again they were taken on the mission to opstina Prijedor between 19th
7 February and 4th March 1996.
8 Q. At my request, did you also review Prosecution Exhibit 283, a video
9 tape of various locations at the village of Sivci?
10 A. Yes, I did.
11 Q. When was that video tape taken?
12 A. They were taken between 19th -- it was taken between 19th February
13 and 4th March 1996.
14 Q. At my request, did you review the photographs contained on
15 Prosecution Exhibit 287 as well as Prosecution Exhibits 288, 289, 290,
16 291, 293 and 295 which are photographs of various location in the
17 hamlet of Jaskici?
18 A. Yes, I did.
19 Q. When were those photographs taken?
20 A. Between 19th February and 4th March 1996.
21 Q. Were those taken by members of your team during your mission into the
22 opstina Prijedor?
23 A. Yes, they were.
24 Q. In regard to seized documents, I would like you to review the
25 following documents. If this document could be marked the next
Page 5475
1 Prosecution Exhibit which will be 319A and B? If I could have copies,
2 please? The original will be in the Serbo-Croatian language and B
3 will be an English translation.
4 If that could be provided to the witness, please? Mr. Reid,
5 what is that document?
6 A. This is a document that was seized in the Omarska iron ore mine
7 between 19th February and 4th March, and it is entitled "A break-down
8 of diesel consumption from 23 May 1992 until 20 October 1992".
9 Q. If you could put the English translation on the overhead projector,
10 please? What organisations does this document show as receiving fuel
11 from the Omarska mine during the period in question?
12 A. There are a number of organisations that are receiving diesel fuel
13 but, in particular, the Territorial Defence in Omarska, the JNA, the
14 police and the municipal Crisis Staff.
15 Q. On the document in the Serbo-Croatian is that how the JNA is
16 annotated as "JNA"?
17 A. Yes, it is.
18 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, I would offer Prosecution Exhibit 319A and B.
19 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.
20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 319A and B will be admitted.
21 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, this next Exhibit is a composite Exhibit which
22 will be 320A through L.
23 JUDGE STEPHEN: Before you leave this 319B, can the witness explain what
24 the matter is in the bottom half, I suppose, of the plan, the KSs and
25 what follows below them?
Page 5476
1 A. The KS, I take to mean Krizni Stab which is Crisis Staff. As to the
2 figures below that and the reason for it being there, I am unable to
3 explain, your Honour.
4 MISS HOLLIS: Mr. Reid, what are these documents?
5 A. These are documents that were seized again at the Omarska iron ore
6 mine between 19th February and 4th March 1996, and they are reports on
7 the quantity of fuel received by individual vehicles.
8 Q. If you would start with A, please, and tell us the dates on each of
9 those documents?
10 A. Yes, the date on document A is 2nd June 1992. Document B is 4th June
11 1992. Document C is 6th June 1992. Document D is 7th June 1992.
12 Document E is 9th June 1992. Document F is 10th June 1992. Document
13 G is 11th June 1992. Document H is 12th June 1992. Document I is
14 15th June 1992. Document J is 16th June 1992. Document K is 18th
15 July 1992. Document L, it is 19 and 20 July 1992.
16 Q. 19 and 20 July?
17 A. I am sorry?
18 Q. 19 and 20 July?
19 A. Yes, that is correct.
20 Q. Each of those documents, A through L, is there a Serbo-Croatian and
21 then an English translation for each of those?
22 A. That is correct.
23 Q. Is there one vehicle that appears on all of those reports?
24 A. Yes, there is.
25 Q. What vehicle is that?
Page 5477
1 A. It is a TAM truck registered No. PD54546.
2 Q. Do those documents also appear to list the driver or the person who
3 is putting fuel into those documents (sic) ----
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. --- or into those vehicles?
6 A. Those vehicles, yes.
7 Q. Do the reports show tanks receiving fuel at Ormaska camp?
8 A. Yes, they do.
9 MISS HOLLIS: I would tender Prosecution Exhibit 320A through L.
10 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.
11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 320A through L will be admitted.
12 MISS HOLLIS: While you were on your mission in opstina Prijedor, did you
13 also request materials and documents from the Chief of Police of
14 opstina Prijedor?
15 A. Yes, I did.
16 Q. Was this request pursuant to an order from a Judge of this Tribunal?
17 A. Yes, it was.
18 Q. Did the Chief of Police give you any of the requested materials or
19 documents?
20 A. No, he did not.
21 Q. Did the chief of Police allow any team members to review the
22 materials or documents?
23 A. No, he did not.
24 Q. What was the name of the Chief of Police with whom you were dealing?
25 A. Simo Drljaca.
Page 5478
1 Q. As part of your duties in relation to this case, were you provided
2 with documents sent to the Office of the Prosecutor by Germany
3 authorities?
4 A. Yes, I was.
5 Q. What documents did you receive?
6 A. On 29th December 1994 I received 10 volumes of folders, and they
7 contained the, if you like, German investigation in relation to the
8 accused. On 26th January 1995, I received volumes 11 through to 14 of
9 what I referred to as "seized" documents which were documents taken
10 from the home of the accused on the day of his arrest in Munich.
11 Q. You indicated that you received binders 1 through 10. Did you
12 receive a record of interview of the accused that was done by German
13 authorities?
14 A. Yes, I did. That was contained within volume 5.
15 Q. At the time that the Office of the Prosecutor received these
16 materials, how were they provided to the Office of the Prosecutor?
17 A. They were provided through the Embassy of the Federal Republic of
18 Germany here in The Hague.
19 Q. Once the Office of the Prosecutor received the seized documents, what
20 was done with those documents?
21 A. The documents or the binders 11 through to 14 were registered in the
22 normal fashion. They were photocopied and the originals of the seized
23 documents were placed in the vault.
24 Q. The German record of interview that you received, was it the original
25 record ----
Page 5479
1 A. No.
2 Q. --- of interview?
3 A. No, it is a copy of the record of interview.
4 Q. If I could have this Exhibit marked as Prosecution Exhibit 321A and
5 B, 321A being the German version and 321B being the English
6 translation. What is this document?
7 A. Yes, the first document that I am looking at, 321A, is the German
8 record of interview in the German language that was conducted between
9 German authorities and the accused on 11th, 12th and 13th October 1994
10 in Munich.
11 Q. As you look at that Exhibit, is there a gap in the page numbering in
12 that Exhibit?
13 A. Yes, there is. The page numbering commences (and I am speaking about
14 the paginated numbers in the top right hand corner) at 3 and it goes
15 through to the number 12, I think it is, it is number 12, and then it
16 begins again at paginated page 30.
17 The reason for this was that at the conclusion of the first
18 day of the interview, 11th October 1994, an annexure was placed at the
19 back of that day's interview which became paginated pages in these
20 volumes, 13 to 29. The next day's interview, 12th October, commences
21 at paginated page 30 and goes through to the conclusion of the
22 interview at page 51.
23 MISS HOLLIS: I would offer Prosecution Exhibit 321A and B.
24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?
25 MR. KAY: Your Honour, there is no objection. We just need to check the
Page 5480
1 translation from the German and if we could hold that as a proviso?
2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Subject to that opportunity, Exhibit 321A and B will
3 be admitted.
4 MR. KAY: Thank you.
5 MISS HOLLIS: If I could have this, please, marked Prosecution Exhibit
6 322A and B? Mr. Reid, if you will look at this document and on A
7 there are numbers 13 through 22?
8 A. Yes, this is the document that was inserted as an annexure at the end
9 of the first day when Mr. Tadic was interviewed in Munich, and it is a
10 letter addressed to the Consulate of the Federal Republic of
11 Yugoslavia in Munich. From 23, paginated page 23, to paginated page
12 29 was the German translation of this document.
13 MISS HOLLIS: The Prosecution offers Exhibit 322A and B.
14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?
15 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.
16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 322A and B will be admitted.
17 MISS HOLLIS: If we could have this Exhibit marked as Prosecution Exhibit
18 323A and B? This has a Dutch or, excuse me, a German stamp of
19 1.12.24, for the Defence's assistance.
20 Mr. Reid, what is this document?
21 A. This is a blank form from Republika Srpska, Prijedor municipality,
22 Municipal Secretariat for Town Planning, Housing and Public Utility
23 Services and Property Law, and it is a blank form of a decision. But
24 there is nothing filled in in the areas where there should be.
25 Q. We received this Exhibit from whom?
Page 5481
1 A. This was received from the German authorities on 26th January 1995.
2 Q. From where was this Exhibit obtained?
3 A. This document was taken from the home of the accused when it was
4 searched on his arrest in Munich on 12th February 1994.
5 MISS HOLLIS: The Prosecution offers Exhibit 323A and B.
6 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.
7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 323A and B will be admitted.
8 MISS HOLLIS: If this Exhibit could please be marked Prosecution Exhibit
9 324? For the Defence's purposes, this is 1.12.47. Mr. Reid, what is
10 this document?
11 A. This is again a document that was found at the home of the accused on
12 the day that he was arrested in Munich. It is a piece of blank paper
13 and it is a round seal with the inscription "Republika Srpska, local
14 commune, Srpski, Kozarac, Prijedor municipality".
15 Q. From whom did we receive this Exhibit?
16 A. From the German authorities on 26th January 1995.
17 Q. Where did they obtain this Exhibit?
18 A. At the home of the accused on the day of his arrest when the house
19 was searched.
20 MISS HOLLIS: We offer Prosecution Exhibit 324.
21 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.
22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 324 will be admitted.
23 MISS HOLLIS: If this could be marked as Prosecution Exhibit 325 for
24 identification? This is 1.12.34. Mr. Reid, what are these documents?
25 A. This is a document, a number of pieces of paper, with the heading
Page 5482
1 "Serb Democratic Party", underneath that "Prijedor", underneath that
2 "No." On the bottom right-hand corner is the seal of the Serb
3 Democratic Party.
4 Q. Does that Exhibit include an English translation?
5 A. Yes, it does.
6 Q. From whom did we receive that Exhibit?
7 A. The German authorities on 26th January 1995.
8 Q. Where did they obtain that Exhibit?
9 A. At the home of the accused on the day of his arrest.
10 MISS HOLLIS: I tender Prosecution Exhibit 325 for identification.
11 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.
12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 325 will be admitted.
13 MISS HOLLIS: If this could be marked Prosecution Exhibit 326 for
14 identification? This is 1.12.68. [To the witness]: What is this
15 Exhibit?
16 A. This is a number of blank pieces of paper and in the bottom
17 right-hand corner of each of these pieces of paper is the round seal
18 "Republika Srpska, Local Commune, Srpski, Kozarac, Prijedor
19 municipality". On a number of these pages there is also what appears
20 to be an initial within that seal.
21 Q. From whom was this Exhibit received by the Office of the Prosecutor?
22 A. We received this from the German authorities on 26th January 1995.
23 Q. From where did they obtain the Exhibit?
24 A. From the home of the accused on the day of his arrest in Munich.
25 MISS HOLLIS: I offer Prosecution Exhibit 326 for identification.
Page 5483
1 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.
2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 326 will be admitted.
3 MISS HOLLIS: If this could be marked Prosecution Exhibit 327 for
4 identification? This is 1.12.69. [To the witness]: What is this
5 Exhibit?
6 A. This is a document which is Municipal Secretariat for Town Planning,
7 Public Utilities, Property Law, Prijedor. It is a certificate and
8 again it is blank where there should be words or figures filled in.
9 Q. From whom did the Office of the Prosecutor receive this Exhibit?
10 A. I am sorry, just before I answer that, there is also a seal in the
11 right-hand corner. We received that from the German authorities on
12 26th January 1995.
13 Q. Where did they obtain that?
14 A. From the home of the accused on the day of his arrest in Munich on
15 12th February 1994.
16 MISS HOLLIS: I offer Prosecution Exhibit 327 for identification.
17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?
18 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.
19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 327 will be admitted.
20 MISS HOLLIS: May I ask that this Exhibit be marked Prosecution Exhibit
21 328 for identification? [To the witness]: What is this Exhibit?
22 A. This Exhibit is a sheet of paper, top left-hand corner "Republika
23 Srpska, Prijedor municipality, Local Commune, Serbian Kozarac", under
24 that is the word "Number" with a space, under that is the "Date" with
25 a space, and it is a certificate and in the bottom right-hand corner
Page 5484
1 is a seal "Republika Srpska, local commune, Serbian Kozarac, Prijedor
2 municipality".
3 Q. Is there an English translation for this document as well?
4 A. Yes, there is.
5 MISS HOLLIS: I would offer Prosecution Exhibit 328 for identification.
6 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.
7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is that one document or is there an A or B?
8 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, I just had it as Prosecution Exhibit 328.
9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That is fine. 328 will be admitted.
10 MISS HOLLIS: If I could have this Exhibit marked, please, Prosecution
11 Exhibit 329A and B for identification, B being the English
12 translation? This is document 1.7.2.
13 [To the witness]: What is this Exhibit?
14 A. This document is the employment book of the accused Dusko Tadic.
15 Q. Does that employment book indicate that it is a duplicate book?
16 A. Yes. In the English translation the word "duplicate" is there, but
17 on the first page you can see quite clearly at the top of the page
18 "duplicate".
19 Q. In that book that you have before you, 329A, is the word "duplicate"
20 written in ink on that book?
21 A. Yes, it is in blue ink.
22 Q. According to that book, by whom was the accused employed in October
23 1992?
24 A. October of?
25 Q. 1992.
Page 5485
1 A. By the Republika Srpska, municipality Prijedor, Local Commune, Srpski
2 Kozarac.
3 Q. From whom did the Office of the Prosecutor receive that Exhibit?
4 A. From the German authorities.
5 Q. Where did they obtain that Exhibit?
6 A. From the home of the accused on the day of his arrest in Munich on
7 12th February 1994.
8 MISS HOLLIS: I tender Prosecution Exhibit 329A and B.
9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?
10 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.
11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 329A and B will be admitted.
12 MISS HOLLIS: If this could be marked Prosecution Exhibit 330A and B, B
13 being the English translation? This is document 1.12.73. Mr. Reid,
14 what is this document?
15 A. This document is dated 30th December 1980 and it is the registration
16 of a karate club in Kozarac by the name of "Borac", B-O-R-A-C.
17 Q. From whom did the Prosecution receive this document?
18 A. From the German authorities.
19 Q. Where did they obtain the document?
20 A. At the home of the accused on the day of his arrest on 12th February
21 1994.
22 MISS HOLLIS: I offer Prosecution Exhibit 330A and B.
23 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.
24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 330A and B will be admitted.
25 MISS HOLLIS: If this document, this Exhibit, could be marked Prosecution
Page 5486
1 Exhibit 331A and B? [To the witness]: What is that document?
2 A. Yes, this document is a confirmation that Dusko Tadic is a coach in
3 the karate club, Borac, in Kozarac and the confirmation is issued on
4 his request for enrollment to the senior coaching school in Zagreb.
5 It is dated 15th March 1981.
6 Q. From whom did the Prosecution receive that document?
7 A. From the German authorities on 26th January 1995.
8 Q. Where did they obtain that document?
9 A. From the home of the accused on the day of his arrest in Munich.
10 MISS HOLLIS: I tender Prosecution Exhibit 331A and B.
11 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.
12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 331A and B will be admitted.
13 MISS HOLLIS: If I could have this Exhibit marked Prosecution Exhibit 332A
14 and B? This is document 1.12.71. [To the witness]: What is that
15 document?
16 A. This is a certificate which is issued by the Serbian Republic of
17 Bosnia and Herzegovina, Ministry of the Interior, Security Services
18 Centre, Banja Luka, Public Security Station, Prijedor, and it is
19 signed by Simo Drljaca.
20 Q. Does the date appear on that document?
21 A. Yes, it is June 1992. The first numeral is 1, but one digit is
22 illegible to give the full date.
23 Q. From whom did the Office of the Prosecutor receive that document?
24 A. From the German authorities.
25 Q. Where did they obtain that document?
Page 5487
1 A. From the home of the accused on the day of his arrest in Munich.
2 MISS HOLLIS: I offer Prosecution Exhibit 332A and B.
3 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.
4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 332A and B will be admitted.
5 MISS HOLLIS: If this can be marked Prosecution Exhibit 333A and B? This
6 is document 1.12.67. [To the witness]: What is this document?
7 A. This is a document relating to the decision on the constitution of
8 the Kozarac branch of the SDS and it is dated 15th August 1992, and it
9 is signed by the acting President, Goran Borovnica.
10 Q. Does that document basically set out the framework of the organs of
11 the SDS as it operates in Kozarac?
12 A. Yes, it does.
13 MISS HOLLIS: I would offer Prosecution Exhibit 333A and B.
14 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.
15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 333A and B will be admitted.
16 MISS HOLLIS: If this could be marked Prosecution Exhibit 334A and B.
17 Pertaining to Prosecution Exhibit 333, Mr. Reid, from whom did we
18 receive that document?
19 A. Yes, we received 333A and B from the German authorities.
20 Q. Where did they obtain the document?
21 A. From the home of the accused on the day of his arrest in Munich.
22 Q. 334A and B for identification is 1.12.65. What is this document, Mr.
23 Reid?
24 A. This document is a decision on the resumption of work of the Kozarac
25 Local Commune. It is dated 22 August 1992, and it is signed by the
Page 5488
1 Chairman of the Citizens' Assembly, Bosko Dragicevic.
2 Q. Is B an English translation of that?
3 A. Yes, that is correct.
4 Q. In this document, according to the document, what two organs does it
5 indicate as the working organs of the commune?
6 A. The Citizens' and Working People's Assembly, and the local board of
7 the Kozarac SDS.
8 Q. We received that document from whom?
9 A. From the German authorities.
10 Q. Where did they obtain the document?
11 A. From the home of the accused on the day of his arrest.
12 MISS HOLLIS: I tender Prosecution Exhibit 334A and B.
13 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.
14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 334A and B will be admitted.
15 MISS HOLLIS: If this could be marked as Prosecution Exhibit 335A and B?
16 This is document 1.12.64. What is this document?
17 A. This document is a decision on the relocation of residents of the
18 Local Commune, it is dated 31 August 1992, and it is signed by the
19 President of the local board of the SDS Kozarac, Dusko Tadic.
20 Q. The Prosecution received that document from whom?
21 A. From the German authorities.
22 Q. Where did they obtain the document?
23 A. From the home of the accused on the day of his arrest.
24 Q. Part B of that is an English translation?
25 A. That is correct.
Page 5489
1 MISS HOLLIS: I offer Prosecution Exhibit 335A and B.
2 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.
3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 335A and B will be admitted.
4 MISS HOLLIS: If this could be marked Prosecution Exhibit 336A and B.
5 This is document 1.12.32. What is this document?
6 A. This is a decision that was taken at the meeting of the local board
7 of the Kozarac SDS appointing Dusko (Ostoja) Tadic as the Party
8 representative for the Kozarac area.
9 Q. What is the date of that document?
10 A. 21 March 1993.
11 Q. From whom did the Prosecution receive that document?
12 A. From the German authorities.
13 Q. Where did they obtain the document?
14 A. From the home of the accused on the day of his arrest in Munich.
15 MISS HOLLIS: I offer Prosecution Exhibit 336A and B for identification.
16 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.
17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 336 will be admitted.
18 MISS HOLLIS: If this could be marked Prosecution Exhibit 337A and B.
19 This is document 1.12.60. What is this document?
20 A. This is a document which was sent to the SDS Municipal Committee in
21 Prijedor and its suggestions re. the names -- the change of names of
22 institutions, streets and squares in the area of the Serb Kozarac
23 Local Commune. It is dated 21 March 1993.
24 Q. It is sent from whom?
25 A. From the Republika Srspka, Prijedor municipality, Local Commune, Serb
Page 5490
1 Kozarac.
2 Q. From whom did the Prosecution receive this document?
3 A. From the German authorities.
4 Q. Where did they obtain the document?
5 A. From the home of the accused on the day of his arrest in Munich.
6 Q. Is part B of that Exhibit the English translation?
7 A. Yes, it is.
8 MISS HOLLIS: I offer Prosecution Exhibit 337A and B.
9 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.
10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 337A and B will be admitted.
11 MISS HOLLIS: If this could be marked Prosecution Exhibit 338A and B.
12 This is 1.12.23. Mr. Reid, what is this document?
13 A. This is a document sent by Dusko Tadic, son of Ostoja, Kozarac, to
14 the Municipal Secretariat for City Planning, Housing, Utilities and
15 Real Estate in Prijedor, and the subject is the change of location of
16 business premises. It is dated Prijedor, 5.8.1992, and it is signed
17 "Dusko Tadic".
18 Q. From whom did the Prosecution receive this exhibit?
19 A. From the German authorities.
20 Q. Where did they obtain the Exhibit?
21 A. From the home of the accused on the day of his arrest.
22 MISS HOLLIS: I offer Prosecution Exhibit 338 A and B.
23 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.
24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 338A and B will be admitted.
25 MISS HOLLIS: If this could be marked Prosecution Exhibit 339A and B?
Page 5491
1 This is document 1.12.41. Part B of that Exhibit is the English
2 translation. What is this document?
3 A. This is a document which lists seven business premises with their
4 address, the previous owner and the floor space. It is date 29th
5 December 1992, Prijedor. It appears to be a surveyor's report as it
6 is an on site investigation conducted by a surveyor, but the name is
7 unclear.
8 Q. Are one of the premises listed there the Okej cafe?
9 A. Yes, No. 2, there is the Okej cafe bar at Ulica Edvarda Kardelja
10 Street, previously owned by Sead Dracic, floor space approximately 50
11 square metres.
12 Q. Where did the Prosecution obtain this document?
13 A. From the German authorities.
14 Q. Where did they obtain it?
15 A. From the home of the accused on the day of his arrest.
16 MISS HOLLIS: I tender Prosecution Exhibit 339A and B.
17 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.
18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 339A and B will be admitted.
19 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, do you intend to take a break or do you want to
20 continue through?
21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: No, we will take a recess. I was just looking. We
22 started at 10 to 3. We will stand in recess for 20 minutes.
23 (4.30 p.m.)
24 (Short Adjournment)
25 (4.50 p.m.)
Page 5492
1 MISS HOLLIS: If I could please have this document marked as Prosecution
2 Exhibit 340A and B for identification? This is document 1.12.14. B
3 is the English translation. Mr. Reid, what is that document?
4 A. This is a decision of the Republika Srpska, Prijedor Municipality
5 Executive Committee, dated 22 January 1993, authorising three persons
6 the leasing of premises for a one year period.
7 Q. Does Mr. Tadic's name appear on that listing?
8 A. Yes, at No. 2 is the name Dusko Tadic, Cafe Okej in Ulica, E.
9 Kardelja Street, 50 square metres, previously owned by Sead Dracic.
10 It is signed by the President of the Executive Council, Dr. Milan
11 Kovacevic.
12 MISS HOLLIS: I offer Prosecution Exhibit 340A and B for identification.
13 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.
14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 340A and B will be admitted.
15 MISS HOLLIS: If this document could be marked Exhibit 341A and B, B is
16 the English translation. What is this document?
17 A. This is a document on agreement on lease of business premises entered
18 into in Prijedor on 26th January 1993 between Prijedor Public Utility
19 Service, represented by the Director, and Tadic (Ostoja) Dusko from
20 Prijedor, Pecani B2/6, lessee.
21 Q. What are the premises that are being leased?
22 A. The premises are in Prijedor, Edvarda Kardelja Street, consisting of
23 50 square metres, consisting of one room.
24 Q. Does the agreement indicate the rent amount per square metre for
25 those premises?
Page 5493
1 A. Yes, it does. It is 20 Deutsche Marks per square metre.
2 Q. Mr. Reid, both Prosecution Exhibit 340 and 341 for identification,
3 from whom did the Prosecution receive those documents?
4 A. From the German authorities.
5 Q. Where did they obtain the documents?
6 A. From the home of the accused on the day of his arrest.
7 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, I tender Prosecution Exhibit 341A and B.
8 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.
9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 341A and B will be admitted.
10 MISS HOLLIS: If this could be marked Prosecution Exhibit 342A and B, B is
11 the English translation. What is this document?
12 A. This is a document that is dated 8 April 1993. It is an annex to the
13 tenancy agreement, and the tenant is Talundzic, Hasan, and the address
14 is Dure Pucara, B2, Pecani, Lamela II.
15 Q. From whom did the Prosecution obtain this document?
16 A. From the German authorities.
17 Q. Where did the German authorities obtain this document?
18 A. From the home of the accused on the day of his arrest.
19 MISS HOLLIS: I tender Prosecution Exhibit 342 for identification.
20 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.
21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 342A and B will be admitted.
22 MISS HOLLIS: If this could be marked Prosecution Exhibit 343 for
23 identification, A and B, B is the English translation. This is
24 document No. 1.12.13.
25 What is this document?
Page 5494
1 A. This is a decision which is dated 1 June 1993. It is issued by
2 Republika Srpska, Prijedor municipality, Municipal Secretariat for
3 Town Planning, Housing and Utility Services and Property Law Prijedor
4 and, in short, it is an eviction notice.
5 Q. To whom?
6 A. To the accused Dusan Tadic.
7 Q. To be evicted from what premises?
8 A. From the Pecani estate, B2, apartment building 2, entrance 4 --
9 sorry, third floor.
10 Q. From whom did the Prosecution obtain this document?
11 A. From the German authorities.
12 Q. Where did they obtain the document?
13 A. From the home of the accused on the day of his arrest.
14 Q. I offer Prosecution Exhibit 343A and B.
15 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.
16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 343A and B will be admitted.
17 MISS HOLLIS: If this document could be marked Prosecution Exhibit 344A
18 and B for identification? B will be the English translation. What is
19 this document?
20 A. This is a document that is dated 8.8.1993 entitled "My Work Report
21 in 1990-1993".
22 Q. From whom is this or by whom is this document written or prepared?
23 A. By the accused.
24 Q. From who did the Prosecution receive this document?
25 A. From the German authorities.
Page 5495
1 Q. Where did the German authorities obtain this document?
2 A. At the home of the accused on the day of his arrest.
3 Q. I would offer Prosecution Exhibit 344A and B for identification.
4 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.
5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 344A and B will be admitted.
6 MISS HOLLIS: Mr. Reid, at my request did you review Defence Exhibit 8
7 which is the military record book of the accused?
8 A. Yes, I did.
9 Q. From whom did the Prosecution receive that military record book?
10 A. From the German authorities.
11 Q. Where did they obtain that book?
12 A. From the home of the accused on the day of his arrest.
13 Q. Your Honour, at the time the record book was offered into evidence
14 and admitted we did not have a complete translation of all of the
15 portions of the book. The Prosecution has now prepared such a
16 complete translation and I have it here available to assist the Court,
17 if you wish it.
18 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.
19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: So we will have 345 and then 340A and B?
20 MISS HOLLIS: If you want to make it a separate Exhibit or if it would
21 assist you as part of the Defence Exhibit, however you want to handle
22 it.
23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You can make it Exhibit ----
24 MISS HOLLIS: Defence D8.
25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I recall that the Defence offered it to Colonel ----
Page 5496
1 MR. KAY: Yes, we did.
2 MISS HOLLIS: This is simply to assist the Court.
3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Good. Thank you.
4 MISS HOLLIS: Do you wish me to mark it as a separate Exhibit?
5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: However you wish.
6 MISS HOLLIS: Right, your Honour.
7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You are doing well with this stack here! Just keep
8 going.
9 MISS HOLLIS: If the Defence has no objection, perhaps we can make it
10 Defence Exhibit 8A so that we keep it together.
11 MR. WLADIMIROFF: A good idea. We tender that!
12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: It will be a joint Exhibit -- well, it will be 8A,
13 is that it, Defence 8A?
14 MISS HOLLIS: Yes, your Honour. We have one to be marked as 8A and we
15 have three copies. We have previously provided the Defence with a
16 copy.
17 Mr. Reid, at my request did you also review the following
18 Exhibits: Prosecution Exhibit 146, Prosecution Exhibit 147, 148, 149,
19 150, 151, 152, 153, 154, 155, and 156?
20 A. Yes, I did.
21 Q. From whom did the Prosecution receive those Exhibits?
22 A. From the German authorities.
23 Q. Where did the German authorities obtain those Exhibits?
24 A. At the home of the accused on the day of his arrest.
25 Q. Mr. Reid, in the course of your investigation into the events that
Page 5497
1 occurred in opstina Prijedor, did you determine that the word "pista"
2 was often used as a reference for a concrete area?
3 A. Yes, that is correct. In fact, some witnesses who were detained in
4 Keraterm camp referred to a concrete area within that camp as a
5 "pista" as well.
6 Q. Mr. Reid, you had mentioned earlier that when you were at the former
7 Omarska detention centre you went into the buildings there including
8 the large hangar. When you were in the large hangar did you see any
9 types of hooks or pulleys hanging from the ceiling of that building?
10 A. Yes, I did.
11 Q. If I could have these two photographs marked as Prosecution Exhibits
12 345 and 346, and if a copy could be given to the Defence. There are
13 three additional copies. It does not matter which is which.
14 Sir, do you recognise what is depicted on those photographs?
15 A. Yes, this is within the large hangar building, the ground floor
16 workshop area. In Exhibit 345 in the top centre is the type of pulley
17 that I have described, that is being described, and in Exhibit 346 in
18 the top centre is a similar pulley.
19 Q. If these could be put on the overhead projector, please.
20 A. 345.
21 Q. Could you point to the pulley that you were talking about?
22 A. Yes, this is the pulley here.
23 Q. That pulley, where does it descend from?
24 A. I am not sure if it descends completely from the roof or from a bar
25 or from a rafter, iron girder from the ceiling.
Page 5498
1 Q. Was this photograph taken during the mission, the OTP mission to
2 opstina Prijedor in the spring of this year?
3 A. Yes, it was.
4 Q. If you could put Prosecution Exhibit 346 on the overhead. If you
5 could point to the ----
6 A. The pulley is this area here [The witness indicated].
7 Q. Again where does that descend from?
8 A. From the ceiling or an iron girder.
9 Q. These are two of the pulley-type structures you found in that
10 building?
11 A. Yes, that is correct.
12 Q. I offer Prosecution Exhibits 345 and 346 for identification.
13 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.
14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 345 and 346 will be admitted.
15 MISS HOLLIS: Mr. Reid, I have asked you questions about documents that
16 were seized from various locations in opstina Prijedor, including the
17 former detention camps. Were all of these documents seized pursuant
18 to the Court order that you took with you on this mission?
19 A. Yes, they were.
20 MISS HOLLIS: No further questions of this witness, your Honour.
21 MR. KAY: I have no cross-examination, your Honour.
22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to Mr. Reid being permanently
23 excused?
24 MR. KAY: Yes, your Honour -- no, your Honour. I had in mind he would be
25 around.
Page 5499
1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I know what you mean. Mr. Reid, you are ----
2 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, we do request he be subject to recall.
3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Reid, you are excused. However, you should
4 continue to make yourself available for you may be recalled.
5 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honour.
6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you for coming.
7 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
8 (The witness withdrew)
9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann?
10 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honours, that is the evidence of the Prosecution.
11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay or Mr. Wladimiroff?
12 MR. KAY: Your Honour, the Defence, as you know, will be filing a motion
13 which the Court will receive on Wednesday of next week concerning
14 submissions of no case to answer in relation to certain of the
15 charges. The Court is to go into recess now until 10th September, as
16 we understand it, and the Defence are to visit the area that we are
17 concerned with in this court next week. We will be returning in
18 various stages after that visit.
19 The Defence case, as we see it, will probably be opening then
20 on 10th September after the Court has made observations or rulings in
21 relation to the submissions. We will be inviting the Court to receive
22 oral argument, such as the Court requires it, in relation to those
23 motions of no case.
24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. You then expect you will be filing the
25 written motion to dismiss some or all of the counts by August 21st, is
Page 5500
1 that Wednesday of next week?
2 MR. KAY: Yes, your Honour.
3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: The Prosecution then will have 14 days to respond to
4 that motion. Then we would like to hear oral arguments on the motion
5 on September 10th at 10 a.m. That was the date we were to return from
6 the three-week recess that has been requested.
7 MR. KAY: Yes.
8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Fine. That resolves that matter. A few other
9 matters we would like to discuss. Yesterday afternoon we discussed
10 the Defence's motion for protective measures, and heard argument in
11 closed session. We expect that we will issue the decision with
12 respect to that motion by tomorrow at 5 p.m., so that you will have
13 that to take with you.
14 Earlier I mentioned that the parties should endeavour to
15 submit their comments on the transcript of witness L by 5 p.m.
16 tomorrow. Once again, if we have the comments from the parties by 5
17 p.m. tomorrow, then the Witness Unit will be able fully to look at it
18 and the transcript, perhaps, will be released then by Tuesday of next
19 week.
20 Mr. Wladimiroff, you agreed that you will notify the Trial
21 Chamber by August 28th regarding the two-week period that you would
22 need for video conferencing.
23 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Yes, I will, your Honour.
24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I think that is all that we have regarding
25 preliminary matters. The Trial Chamber wants the parties to know that
Page 5501
1 we will be available, the Judges will be available during this recess
2 here in The Hague. Should you need to communicate with the Trial
3 Chamber, contact the Registry and the Registry will be in touch with
4 us.
5 Are there other matters we need to consider at this time, Mr.
6 Niemann?
7 MR. NIEMANN: There is one matter I wish to enquire of the Defence through
8 your Honours, and that is whether the Defence will be providing the
9 Prosecution and the Court, or the Prosecution, with a prior list of
10 witnesses indicating the intended order of witnesses as they propose
11 to call them.
12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?
13 MR. KAY: We had not intended doing that. We have supplied the names of
14 the alibi witnesses and expert witnesses that we intended to call. We
15 had not intended to supply a list of names of all our witnesses. It
16 does not seem to be something within the Rules.
17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann, are you referring to the expert
18 witnesses and the alibi witnesses? Are you asking for an order, an
19 order in which the Defence would call the witnesses, or are you asking
20 for a list of all of the witnesses?
21 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, what we are asking is whether or not a list of
22 the witnesses that the Defence intend to call, whether or not they
23 will be supplied in advance of them calling the witnesses. So, yes, I
24 am referring to all of the witnesses, but whether we will be provided
25 with that.
Page 5502
1 If I might just go on, your Honour, it does touch upon
2 important matters because we have issues such as video conferencing.
3 We do not know when those witnesses will be called. We have been
4 given no indication for it. Particularly with respect to the
5 placement of expert witnesses, we do not know where they are going to
6 be placed. In our submission, it would considerably assist the smooth
7 running of the proceedings if we were to be provided with these in
8 advance of them being called.
9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?
10 MR. KAY: Yes, we will be as helpful as possible. May I say we do not
11 know our own order yet because we do not know when the video link is
12 going to be in operation. We are hopeful that the live witnesses can
13 be dealt with first, but they are still ongoing discussions between
14 the Defence and Witness Unit as to how precisely that is to take
15 place, whether the witnesses are to be brought over in dribs and
16 drabs, batches or as a job lot. So we do not know our order yet, but
17 we will certainly advise the Prosecution when we are to call our
18 expert witnesses, because they will obviously want to have their own
19 experts present and available to listen to the testimony.
20 We are still working on this, your Honour, and we are unable
21 to provide them any indication at this stage, not least because we do
22 not yet know when the availability of certain witnesses is going to be
23 possible.
24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That is why I was trying to ask the Prosecution
25 whether he was focusing on expert witnesses or alibi witnesses or both
Page 5503
1 of them, plus all of the other witnesses. It seems to me that he is
2 requesting a list of the order for all witnesses. With respect to the
3 alibi and the expert witnesses, it seems to me you can give, certainly
4 as to expert witnesses, the order in which you intend to call them.
5 As to the alibi witnesses, you should be able to give them an order at
6 some point. The question is when. When you return back from visiting
7 the Former Yugoslavia it seems to me you will then be in a good
8 position to know what your order will be.
9 As far as the video conferencing is concerned, I thought you
10 had indicated that you would be calling your live witnesses first when
11 we returned in September?
12 MR. KAY: Yes.
13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: The persons, that is, who will come to The Hague.
14 Are you in a position at this time to give the order of those
15 witnesses and then perhaps in the next week or two weeks you will know
16 better about the remaining alibi witnesses?
17 MR. KAY: We will certainly know better after our visit that is pending.
18 The only reason why I hesitate over the video conferencing is I know
19 the Court advised us it was only for a two-week period. It is going a
20 fixed two-week period.
21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes.
22 MR. KAY: That may fall into the middle of live witness time.
23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Why do you not provide the list to the Prosecutor of
24 the order of the expert witnesses and alibi witnesses whom you intend
25 to call. As the Prosecution has changed their order, you may change
Page 5504
1 your order.
2 MR. KAY: Yes.
3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We have received five, six different Prosecution
4 lists, and they have worked with you and changed the order. So we are
5 certainly willing to handle your list in the same manner.
6 MR. KAY: I am obliged.
7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: So if you can provide them with an order, a list of
8 expert witnesses and alibi witnesses and the order in which you intend
9 to call them as best you can estimate at this time, understanding that
10 there will be a change, by the Friday before -- when would you want
11 them Mr. Niemann?
12 MR. NIEMANN: The Friday before the commencement of the case.
13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: The Friday then before we commence. That would then
14 be September 6th.
15 MR. KAY: Yes.
16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Also by then we will be in touch, the Registry will
17 be in touch with you and I am sure we will have the video
18 conferencing, still keeping our fingers crossed that we will have that
19 in place. I am sure that by the Friday before we will have
20 established the two-week period. Things should be working pretty
21 smoothly by then. But then I am optimistic by nature!
22 MR. KAY: I think one has to be given the problems we have faced over the
23 last few months. We are aiming to start with policy witnesses, your
24 Honour, and I am sure that will assist the Prosecution rather in the
25 same way that they did.
Page 5505
1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Are these expert witnesses?
2 MR. KAY: Yes.
3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good. So then you will provide them with that
4 list by the Friday before, but just of expert and alibi witnesses. We
5 will consider a request that you may wish to make for all witnesses at
6 a later time.
7 Are there other matters that we need to consider at this time?
8 MR. KAY: Nothing, your Honour.
9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good. Then we will adjourn until Tuesday,
10 September 10th at 10 a.m.
11 (5.20 p.m.)
12 (The court adjourned until Tuesday, 10th September 1996).
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