101008IT

Page 6364

1 commander, Ostoja Stanisic, that he had relayed the message to Beara.

2 Stanisic then conveyed this information to the brigade.

3 Milosevic heard isolated shots and bursts of gun-fire coming from

4 the direction of the school late that afternoon. He stated that he did

5 not investigate and that he did not pass the school again that day.

6 Although he spent the night of 15 July at the battalion command,

7 Milosevic said that he did not learn that the Muslim prisoners at

8 Petkovci school had been killed until around 20 July, after he had been

9 wounded and placed in hospital.

10 That concludes my summary, Your Honours. I do have a few

11 additional questions for the witness.

12 Q. All right. Now, prior to serving as the deputy commander of the

13 6th Battalion of the Zvornik Brigade in 1995, Mr. Milosevic, did you

14 serve in any other positions as a member of the VRS?

15 A. Yes. I served in other positions in the VRS, specifically in the

16 Zvornik Brigade. In 1993, I was the assistant commander for morale. And

17 in 1994, I was the assistant commander for security in the battalion.

18 I'm not sure if it was the 3rd or the 1st Battalion of the Zvornik

19 Brigade.

20 Q. And in 1994 when you were -- first let me ask you, you said that

21 you were not sure if it was the 1st or the 3rd Battalion. Would it

22 refresh your --

23 A. I don't know exactly which battalion it was, but I was the

24 assistant commander for security in this battalion.

25 Q. Okay. I would just remind you that in your Blagojevic testimony

Page 6365

1 at page 5639, and that would be lines 20 through 23 of that transcript,

2 you indicated that you served in the 1st Battalion as the assistant

3 commander for security for about six or seven months. Does that refresh

4 your recollection?

5 A. Yes, it does refresh my recollection and it was like that.

6 Q. And you've indicated that that was within the Zvornik Brigade.

7 Did you have contacts with the chief of security for the Zvornik Brigade

8 during that period of time?

9 A. Yes. In the period while I was serving in this duty, we had

10 contacts with the chief of security of the Zvornik Brigade,

11 Mr. Drago Nikolic.

12 Q. And this is the same Drago Nikolic that you've indicated in your

13 previous testimony as the person that pointed out Beara to you near the

14 Petkovci school on 14 July 1995, that afternoon?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And at that time did you know who Beara was?

17 A. No. I didn't know who Beara was. It was the first time I saw

18 him.

19 Q. And in terms of your relationship with Nikolic, was it such that

20 it would give you cause to believe or give you pause, with a p, in

21 respect of his pointing out Beara to you?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Is there any reason that you have to believe that Mr. Nikolic

24 would have misled you as to who Beara was when you asked him?

25 A. No.

Page 6366

1 Q. I want to show you a couple of exhibits.

2 MR. VANDERPUYE: The first will be P1103.

3 Q. This is a -- it's an aerial image that you marked in your last

4 testimony.

5 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, this is just fine.

6 Q. If you could just tell us briefly what this shows and then I'll

7 show you another exhibit. You don't have to mark it, you can just tell

8 us what it's supposed to indicate.

9 A. We can see that the road from the battalion command to the

10 crossroads where I met Drago Nikolic is marked in a red line, and to the

11 left where the primary school is, it's the plateau with the primary

12 school. It's marked also in red.

13 Q. Thank you very much. I'd like to show you the next part of this

14 exhibit -- well, another exhibit.

15 MR. VANDERPUYE: It's P1104.

16 Q. And could you briefly just tell us what this is intended to show,

17 what the X is and then what the red line is?

18 A. It's the old school and the red line marks the road from the new

19 school to the battalion school, or rather, the old school where the

20 command of the 6th Battalion was accommodated.

21 Q. Thank you, Mr. Milosevic.

22 MR. VANDERPUYE: I'd like to show you P1091. I believe it's the

23 aerial image from which those two marked photos were taken -- was taken.

24 Q. If you are able to find your bearings on this, this one I'd like

25 you to mark, just to show what the other two images reflect. So if you

Page 6367

1 could just show the starting point, the meeting point, and the school on

2 this one, that would be helpful.

3 A. Do you mean the old school or the new one?

4 Q. If you can see the elementary school, if you could mark it that?

5 A. [Marks]

6 Q. Okay. And if you could mark the point, the intersection or near

7 the intersection where you met Drago Nikolic and Beara?

8 A. [Marks]

9 Q. And if you can show where the command of the 6th Battalion is

10 situated. Maybe we'll mark these 1, 2, and 3 respectively so that it's

11 clear for the record.

12 A. [Marks]

13 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Milosevic.

14 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I'd like to tender this exhibit.

15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This aerial photograph with markings will be

16 admitted into evidence.

17 THE REGISTRAR: The red markings, Your Honours, on Exhibit P1091

18 made in red by this witness would be assigned Exhibit P01138.

19 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you. I'd like to show you 65 ter 1464,

20 which is also a map. Okay. If we can zoom in to, you see the number 6

21 in there, if you can focus in on that and you'll see a flag marked with

22 the number 6 as well. It's right in the middle of the screen, just

23 about. We can get a little bit bigger. And if you can zoom in right

24 there on the flag, that would be helpful. Okay, I think that's pretty

25 good.

Page 6368

1 Q. Mr. Milosevic, are you able to recognise the location that's

2 indicated -- well, the location, there are many, but the location where

3 you see a 6 with a flag in it?

4 A. Baljkovica, Petkovci, that's where the command of the

5 6th Battalion was.

6 MR. VANDERPUYE: I'd like to -- if we can have the flag move a

7 little towards the centre of the screen, that would be helpful. A little

8 bit down. Okay. That's just fine. Maybe we can blow it up also.

9 Great.

10 Q. I'd like you to mark this one, this map as well, but first let me

11 ask you, where the flag is depicted in this map, is that accurate as to

12 where the 6th Battalion command was actually situated?

13 A. As far as I can see, the circle, it's a populated place, and it

14 was approximately there, now whether it's exact or not, but I think it

15 is.

16 Q. All right.

17 A. Because the battalion command was here where the populated place

18 is, that is Petkovci.

19 Q. All right. That's good to know. Now, where the triangle is at

20 the base of that flag with the number 6 in it, that would be Petkovci; is

21 that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Okay. And about -- do you see the -- do you see the water to the

24 right of that flag? There's some distance away, and you can see a body

25 of water there?

Page 6369

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Okay. And can you tell us where the dam is located relative to

3 where the command of the 6th Battalion is, and if you could mark it, that

4 would be helpful, if you are able.

5 A. The dam was in the populated place called Djulici, and I suppose

6 that it is this up here, as I was living in was in Lupe for ten years and

7 from the place where I lived you could see the dam. Am I supposed to

8 mark it, but how? With an X or --

9 Q. With a B for Brana, I think. That would be fine.

10 A. [Marks]

11 Q. Can you tell us about how far the dam is from the battalion

12 command, the 6th Battalion command?

13 A. I can't say exactly, but as Djulici were 2, 2 and a half or

14 3 kilometres away and so were Lupe, that means that the dam would have to

15 be around 2 and a half to 3 kilometres from the battalion command.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I'd like it to tender this

18 exhibit as well.

19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That marked map will be received.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the markings made by this witness

21 in red on 65 ter 01464 will be assigned P01139.

22 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you.

23 Q. Mr. Milosevic, I just have a few questions more for you. As the

24 former assistant commander for security at the battalion level, who were

25 you -- to whom were you subordinated, back in 1994?

Page 6370

1 A. In 1994, well, I was subordinated to the commander of my

2 battalion and I also co-operated with Mr. Drago Nikolic who was the

3 assistant commander for security of the Zvornik Brigade.

4 Q. In terms of your relationship with the security structures of the

5 brigade, can you tell us what that was, what was your responsibility

6 toward the higher security organs?

7 A. I will tell you what I was doing at the time and how I understood

8 my duties as the assistant commander for security in the battalion, in

9 relation to the chief of security of the Zvornik Brigade Drago Nikolic.

10 It all came down to several operational tasks. Essentially that we

11 should be in contact so that we would say whether the line or the zone of

12 responsibility was secure, that was the zone and the line of our brigade

13 and our battalion. And if necessary, we would inform the command of the

14 Zvornik Brigade about intelligence, that is to say, the movements of

15 enemy forces in front of our line and our defence sector.

16 What I can say is that we spent most time by co-operating with

17 the military police of all the security structures at the brigade level

18 because very often it happens to us when there was rotation of troops at

19 the line, that the line was not filled, and then company commanders

20 requested that the soldiers be transported to our lines and we requested

21 the brigade command and the military police, which was controlled by the

22 security, to bring in these men and transport them to the lines so that

23 the line would be secure.

24 Q. Did you in your capacity as assistant commander for security at

25 the battalion level receive orders from your commander, that is the

Page 6371

1 battalion commander?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And did you receive orders from Drago Nikolic as your superior

4 along the security chain of communication?

5 A. Well, Mr. Drago Nikolic, as far as security is concerned and as

6 far as I can remember, and this was a peaceful time where there weren't

7 many combat operations, from time to time as required we would report, I

8 can't tell you the exact number, how many times, but we would report and

9 Drago Nikolic as the assistant commander for security would issue certain

10 guide-lines and instructions and as to how we were to work.

11 For the most part it had to do with potential movements of Muslim

12 forces in front of our lines where our battalion covered and they would

13 indicate this to us so we would be prepared so that we wouldn't be caught

14 by surprise by the enemy. So for the most part that is what it boiled

15 down to. And there was also certain co-ordination with the military

16 police in terms of securing the defence line, mainly to do with

17 reinforcements and bringing in fresh men to fill in the gaps.

18 Q. Was it part of your responsibility as the assistant commander for

19 security at the battalion level, was it part of your responsibility to

20 undertake certain measures to detect and arrest perpetrators in respect

21 of criminal acts within the area of responsibility or within the area

22 of -- rather, within the area of responsibility for the security organs

23 generally and for the battalion particularly?

24 A. I wouldn't know anything about that.

25 Q. Were you at any time involved in either gathering information or

Page 6372

1 undertaking any criminal proceedings against perpetrators of criminal

2 acts during the time that you were assistant commander for security at

3 the battalion level?

4 A. Well, all I can say is that there was an incident sometime in

5 1994, I believe in spring-time, but I'm not sure, and this was while I

6 was the assistant commander for security, where one of our companies

7 captured a member of the Muslim Army who was drunk and he just happened

8 to run into our lines. He was held at the battalion. He was questioned

9 briefly. We asked him what his name was and what unit he belonged to,

10 and we informed of this the brigade command and asked them to send

11 military -- the military police to take over the prisoner and escort him

12 to the brigade. That's how it happened.

13 The military police did come. They took in Muslim to the

14 brigade, and as far as I know, this same person was later on exchanged

15 and returned to his territory.

16 Q. And would the questioning of a prisoner such as this one that

17 you've described, would that be within the remit of your responsibilities

18 as a security officer at the battalion level?

19 A. Well, as I've already said, as I said that I was a member of the

20 Army of Republika Srpska and that I was where I was, but I wasn't very

21 familiar with the exact duties of either the assistant commander of the

22 battalion or the battalion because I never went to any military school,

23 so I just felt that it was my duty to inform the brigade if someone was

24 captured so that they could jot down the information.

25 But as for the questioning itself and how that should be done, I

Page 6373

1 did not go into that. There was no need for that and there were other

2 people who did that.

3 Q. You know based upon your experience having been an assistant

4 commander for security at the battalion level, do you know if it is

5 within the responsibilities of a security officer such as yourself to

6 question prisoners, whether it is within the responsibilities of that

7 position to undertake measures to detect and arrest perpetrators of

8 criminal acts, and whether it is within the responsibilities for that

9 position to gather information about those criminal acts that can be used

10 for conducting criminal proceedings? Is that your understanding of what

11 your responsibilities, among other things, would entail?

12 A. I've already said that, in my view, and as far as I knew about

13 the army and the command system in the army, I know that it was my duty

14 as a security officer in the battalion to gather information on any

15 movements of Muslims out in front of our defence line, to make sure that

16 the line is secure and fully manned and to contact the brigade with any

17 issues that -- with the military police. But as far as the criminal

18 offences were concerned, I did not -- I was not aware that it was my

19 duty, nor did I read any regulations to that effect so I couldn't really

20 answer that question very accurately.

21 Q. All right. Well, thank you very much for that candid response.

22 MR. VANDERPUYE: That concludes my direct examination,

23 Mr. President.

24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much, Mr. Vanderpuye.

25 Mr. Tolimir, please start your cross-examination.

Page 6374

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. May

2 there be peace unto this house and may God's will be done in these

3 proceedings. And may the outcome be as God wishes and not as I wish,

4 including today. I wish Mr. Milosevic a pleasant stay in The Hague and I

5 wish to greet him.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, General.

7 Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:

8 Q. [Interpretation] I will have a few questions for you about some

9 matters that you testified earlier on because all of those transcripts

10 were also admitted as evidence in these proceedings. And I would

11 appreciate your patience, listen carefully to my questions, and please do

12 try to make a brief pause after my question so that the interpreters can

13 follow.

14 A. Very well.

15 Q. Thank you. Now, in the Popovic transcript on page 1329, lines 3,

16 4 and 5, you said the following, and I will quote because neither you nor

17 I can speak any English:

18 "Before the war broke out in the former Yugoslavia" --

19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And for the record, this is P1102.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Transcript page 13298.

21 Lines 4 and 5. Thank you.

22 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

23 Q. "Before the war broke out in the former Yugoslavia, I did not

24 have a job. I was in Kladanj waiting to be employed at the bureau for

25 employment."

Page 6375

1 My question for you is this: How old were you before the war?

2 Thank you.

3 A. Before the war I was 27 years old.

4 Q. Thank you. Could you tell us, please, based on what

5 Mr. Vanderpuye read, your resume, you said that you were born in Kladanj.

6 Were your parents too born in Kladanj? In other words, do you hail from

7 that area?

8 A. Well, I was born in Lupoglav village, and it was in Kladanj

9 municipality, and that's where I was born, my parents were born, as well

10 as our forbearers.

11 Q. Thank you. In other words, the Lupoglav village is your ancient

12 home, as we would put it in our language?

13 A. Yes, that's correct.

14 Q. Thank you. In the Popovic transcript you said that your mother

15 remained in Lupoglav for awhile, and you also said:

16 "Not only my mother," and I quote, "some 50 people or so stayed

17 in the village and they were all arrested and taken to a camp in Stupari,

18 in Kladanj municipality, where they were held until July 1993 when they

19 were exchanged under the auspices of the Red Cross. This exchange was in

20 Bijeljina."

21 My question is this: How long was your mother held in detention,

22 because it doesn't say so here? Thank you.

23 A. In late May and early June 1992, and at this time I worked in

24 Sekovici already, some inhabitants of my village, Lupoglav, had already

25 been evacuated to Sekovici, and a larger number of them, including my

Page 6376

1 mother, her brothers and other relations, remained in the village and

2 were captured by the Muslim forces, which at the time was the Kladanj

3 Territorial Defence. And from the village they were taken by force to

4 Stupari to a camp which was housed across -- in a building across from

5 the school, and they were held there until July 1993, I believe, when

6 they were exchanged through the mediation of the International Red Cross

7 and the exchange took place in Bijeljina.

8 Q. Thank you. My apologies, I really wanted to ask you when they

9 were captured, if you can recall, whether it was the same month or the

10 same year? Thank you.

11 A. They were captured in 1992 in early June.

12 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us what happened with their property?

13 Did anyone stay back? Did any inhabitants of Serb ethnicities remain in

14 the village?

15 A. As far as the property is concerned in my village, Lupoglav, all

16 of the properties were then devastated. They were looted and burnt down.

17 In other words, nothing was left of the village. It was razed.

18 Q. Thank you. Did any of those individuals whose properties had

19 been burnt down, did any of them take part in any combat operations or

20 were they another category?

21 A. Well, all these were unarmed civilians and elderly people, so

22 that not one of them ever took part in any combat operations nor were

23 there any combat operations in May and June 1992 at the time when they

24 were captured and taken to the Stupari camp.

25 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us please, other than your village, were

Page 6377

1 there any other villages and places in Kladanj municipality that you know

2 of where people had been -- people of Serb ethnicities had been removed

3 in a similar manner? Thank you.

4 A. Well, in view of the fact that I spent my entire life there, my

5 career, I worked there, I knew most of the people there, and I believe

6 and I think that all of the villages in Kladanj municipality, and I'm

7 talking about June 1992, all these villages were torched and all the

8 people who stayed behind, who hadn't been evacuated earlier on, were

9 captured and taken to Stupari. So that camp was a detention camp not

10 only for this village but also from some other villages.

11 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch the names.

12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Would you please repeat the names of these

13 villages. The interpreters didn't catch the names.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said my village Lupoglav,

15 Matijevici, Olovci, Brdijeli, Obrcevac, Vranovici, Mladovo, Pelemisi, I'm

16 not sure about Pelemisi, the entire area, but part of it, and other Serb

17 villages which were connected with Olovo which I was not aware of at the

18 time.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Mr. President, again we

20 see that not all of the villages were recorded in the transcript and I

21 would ask the witness to repeat the names again and just tell us whether

22 they had the same fate as Lupoglav, whether they were looted, torched and

23 so on, and the people taken away.

24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, the system with recording is the

25 following. If you seen the signs between Olovci and Vranovici, that

Page 6378

1 means it will be checked later and compared with the tape. You can be

2 sure that will be corrected and added, so there is no need to repeat it

3 again. But if the interpreters tell us that they didn't catch it, they

4 couldn't translate it and therefore I asked for repetition.

5 Please carry on.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

7 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

8 Q. So, Witness, would you just answer my new question, in other

9 words, were these villages too devastated, as you said, and how? Thank

10 you.

11 A. As far as I know, all of these villages, all the villages that

12 were inhabited by Serbs were torched and demolished.

13 Q. Thank you. On page 1329 -- 13299 of the transcript, in the

14 Popovic transcript, you talked about your promotion while you were with

15 the Army of Republika Srpska. You spoke about this in lines 5 through 8.

16 I won't reiterate any of what you said there, but could you just tell us

17 here whether you have ever completed any kind of military school? Thank

18 you.

19 A. General, in the Republika Srpska army I was on various functions.

20 As I said, I was assistant commander for security and then for morale,

21 and then in the end I was the deputy commander of the 6th Battalion. My

22 rank was that of corporal and I was conferred this rank when I was in the

23 Yugoslav Army still and I did not -- I did not get promoted at all.

24 Q. Well, the reason I put this question to you was to show that when

25 you did not answer some of the Prosecutor's questions, it was not because

Page 6379

1 you weren't willing to but because you didn't have the appropriate

2 background.

3 A. Well, yes, I did not -- I was not trained as an officer and I was

4 not very familiar with what which functions entailed. I did the best I

5 knew how.

6 Q. Thank you. Did you actually complete the course as assistant

7 commander for security? Did you complete the course for that position?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Thank you. Did you complete the course for assistant commander

10 for morale? Thank you.

11 A. No.

12 Q. The position of assistant commander, does that mean that the

13 person in charge is the commander whereas you were just his assistant at

14 the battalion level, yes or no?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. My apologies. Within the scope of the duties that you carried

17 out and that you took over from the person who was there before you, did

18 you just carry out those duties for the period that you were appointed to

19 that position, say six months, and then you were transferred to something

20 else, you would do something else?

21 A. Well, I didn't go through any kind of training. We just carried

22 out the take-over and we would be assigned to various duties within the

23 battalion.

24 Q. Thank you. Did your battalion commander know what the tasks and

25 duties of the position for which you were the assistant were?

Page 6380

1 A. Well, I assume so.

2 Q. Does that mean that you could not lie to him or deceive him as to

3 what it was that you were doing or were suppose today do because he knew

4 very well what your duties as assistant commander for security entailed?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Please tell us now whether at any point in time you were taken to

7 task because of the work that you did in the course of your duties, or

8 were you ever commended for your work, and were these commendations

9 relayed to you directly or via the brigade commander and whether they

10 were done in public in front of all the other members of the brigade?

11 A. Well, I've already said that, as far as I can recall, I never

12 received any commendations either at the brigade command or elsewhere. I

13 did my job to the best of my abilities, but I was never commended for my

14 work, nor was I ever promoted.

15 Q. Thank you. Please tell the Trial Chamber whether all assistant

16 commanders in the battalion such as yours have to carry out the tasks as

17 set forth by the commander?

18 A. Well, as I've already are said, I was the assistant commander for

19 security. I was one of the assistants as a morale person, and of course

20 I obeyed the orders issued by my commander. That was crucial. And as

21 for the rules and the structure of the chain of command, I really didn't

22 learn -- I didn't read anything about it, so I don't really know much

23 about it.

24 Q. Well, tell me, please, can a subordinate change orders issued by

25 his commander? In other words -- or to put it more clearly, did the

Page 6381

1 commander issue orders that had to be followed?

2 A. Yes. General, my apologies, but could you please repeat your

3 question?

4 Q. Thank you. Did commanders issue written or oral orders for

5 combat operations and activities related to that? Thank you.

6 A. I don't really remember.

7 Q. Thank you. Were you carrying out your duties at the location

8 which were pointed out by the Prosecutor a little earlier?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. The battalion forces, were they deployed there pursuant to an

11 order or were they there just on their own decision? Thank you.

12 A. Well, I will repeat again. As far as the command structure is

13 concerned, I wouldn't really go into that much, but I assumed that they

14 were deployed there pursuant to an order and that it was known where a

15 battalion or a company was that was part of that battalion.

16 Q. Thank you. As an assistant commander, were you allowed to alter

17 any orders issued by the commander? Were you allowed to say, Well, we

18 want -- we will not defend that feature or that hill but some other?

19 Were there such instances where a subordinate commander would take his

20 own or make his own -- issue his own commands?

21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.

22 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. I don't mean to

23 interrupt the cross-examination, but the question seems a bit confusing

24 because not clear as to what period of time we are talking about. If we

25 are talking about 1995, then the record is clear that the position of

Page 6382

1 this witness at that time was the deputy commander of the 6th Battalion.

2 And it's unclear whether we are talking about his position as a deputy

3 commander or as an assistant commander, which are completely different,

4 completely different functions. And I'm sure Mr. Tolimir wants to make

5 that point as well, but I think it's important to be clear for the

6 record.

7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.

8 Mr. Tolimir, that will be helpful indeed if you could make clear

9 if your specific question is related to 1995 or another period of time.

10 Please go ahead.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

13 Q. I asked about 1995 and I mentioned the place where the Prosecutor

14 showed the flag and I asked you whether you were there. But let me ask

15 you again, while you were in the 6th Battalion, could you ever change the

16 position of the battalion commander about positioning the defence forces

17 or any other decision in the zone where combat activities were being

18 carried out? Thank you.

19 A. As my duty in the battalion was assistant commander, that is to

20 say, deputy commander of the battalion, I could not change anything that

21 the commander had ordered. I had to obey the commander just like anyone

22 else within the battalion command, of course.

23 Q. Thank you. Could you change the commander's decision relating to

24 security? When he would say, Well, the security will have to do this and

25 that, could you change this decision or did you have to obey the order?

Page 6383

1 What I have in mind is the period while you were the assistant for

2 security in the battalion, those six months.

3 A. I think that as the assistant commander for security I was not

4 supposed to change any decisions. We just obeyed our commander.

5 Q. Thank you. Did the commander issue all security tasks to you as

6 you were the one who had to carry out these decisions and implement them

7 in the field? Did he regulate that by written orders or by something

8 that he would convey to you orally? Thank you.

9 A. I already said earlier and let me repeat now, as assistant

10 commanders for security within the battalion, we had some contacts with

11 the assistant commander for security in the brigade in the sense that we

12 would have possible briefings, and it all came down to determining

13 whether the line was secure. In other words, whether any movements had

14 been noticed or any attempts to break through the forward defence line of

15 the battalion, and what I already said, we co-operated with the military

16 police in the sense of filling up positions along the line so as to make

17 sure that it would be secure.

18 So we obeyed the commander, but we also had some contacts with

19 the security commander of the brigade, specifically in connection with

20 the issues that I just mentioned.

21 Q. You probably meant the assistant commander for security because

22 there's no commander for security?

23 A. Yes, yes, I meant the assistant commander for security in the

24 brigade.

25 Q. Thank you. Could he issue orders to you, I mean the assistant

Page 6384

1 commander for security in the brigade, orders that would be contrary to

2 the orders and tasks that had been issued to the battalion and that were

3 supposed to be implemented in the field? Thank you.

4 A. I can only speak for myself. We did not have any specific orders

5 that we would receive from the assistant commander of the Zvornik

6 Brigade. The meetings came down to the security of the line and in any

7 case, it's probable, although I cannot confirm this, that the assistant

8 commander had some contacts with battalion commanders. In any case, as

9 the deputy commander of the battalion, I had to obey the orders of the

10 battalion commander. And let me repeat once again, we did have some

11 contacts with the assistant commander from the brigade for security, and

12 that was Mr. Drago Nikolic in this case, because during these seven or

13 eight months I held this position -- but fortunately it was more or less

14 a peaceful period so there wasn't much need for any additional orders or

15 whatever else.

16 Q. Thank you. I asked you this and I made an error in my question

17 on purpose, but you answered as it was. I asked you whether this

18 assistant commander could issue any orders, but an assistant cannot issue

19 orders because it's logical that the commander should issue them, your

20 commander should issue orders to you just as you said, and his commander

21 would issue orders to him on the basis of his proposal.

22 Did you possibly have the chance --

23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.

24 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. I think everybody

25 knows what my objection will be, which is the lead-in to the question. I

Page 6385

1 just want to clarify once again whether or not this is a position that

2 the Defence is taking for the purposes of representing the Defence

3 position in the case because I know that at the beginning of the case,

4 Mr. Tolimir was advised with respect to statements of fact that he may

5 make as an accused in this case, and I see that in this particular

6 instance he has made certain representations concerning the manner in

7 which orders are conveyed either by assistant commanders or commanders,

8 not in the context of a question but separate and apart from any

9 question. And I want to be sure of two things. One is that he is aware

10 of his right with respect to making factual representations as an accused

11 in this case. And two, whether or not it is his position or whether or

12 not he is representing the Defence position in making these kinds of

13 representations for the record.

14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think everybody who's listening realised that

15 the last question was not a question but a statement. That is absolutely

16 true, and we have had some instances of a similar kind in the past. You

17 should be very careful with that, Mr. Tolimir, and you should put

18 questions to the witness and not make any statements. Please carry on.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I just

20 explained to the witness why I asked him an erroneous question because

21 Mr. Vanderpuye asked him the question and he answered the way he did.

22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, I understand you. You would always

23 like to explain why you put the question, but in the proper examination

24 it is never necessary to give a reason for certain kind of a question.

25 This is up to you. Nobody wants to know that. You should make your

Page 6386

1 cross-examination. There is no need for any reasoning. Please go ahead.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

3 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Mr. Milosevic, please tell the Trial Chamber whether you could

5 give any tasks to those who were not members of your battalion but were

6 members of the army? Thank you.

7 A. General, I was the deputy commander of the 6th Battalion. I

8 never issued any orders or gave any tasks.

9 Q. Thank you. Please tell us did you ever carry out a task or an

10 order that was contrary to how you understood morality or immorality or

11 whether something was right or wrong or how much you knew about the

12 customs and laws that were in force at the period?

13 A. General, can you please repeat the question, it was a longish

14 one.

15 Q. All right. I'll shorten it. Did you ever carry out an order

16 which you believed was not right?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Were you ever issued such an order by your battalion commander or

19 the brigade commander? Thank you.

20 A. As far as I know it wasn't.

21 Q. Who could give orders to you in this chain of command? Thank

22 you.

23 A. As I already said, I was the deputy battalion commander and I

24 only obeyed the orders of my battalion commander.

25 Q. Thank you. We'll move to a different group of questions now

Page 6387

1 because you stated clearly what you could and should be doing during

2 these six months.

3 On page 13307 of the transcript in the Popovic case, lines 24 and

4 25, and 13308, lines 1 to 8, you stated the following, I will quote:

5 "In the morning on the 15th of July, early in the morning, my

6 commander, Ostoja Stanisic, sent me once again to the defence sector of

7 the 4th Company in our battalion because we had received information that

8 during the night, or in the late -- in the early evening, that two of the

9 trenches had been abandoned or, rather, that they had been hit by a

10 hand-held launcher and the troops had withdrawn to the left and to the

11 right of this trench and thus left an empty space in our line. So on the

12 orders of my commander, I went there" -- my commander, I'm sorry, I

13 didn't say the word "my commander." "I went there with two or three

14 soldiers to see what had happened and what needed to be done in order to

15 re-establish the line so that we wouldn't have any breaches in the line."

16 Thank you. Did I quote correctly what you said about what was

17 happening at the time and does that correspond to your description?

18 A. Yes, it happened that way.

19 Q. For the record, just tell us which troops withdrew to the left or

20 the right of the trenches which were now empty? Just so that it would be

21 clear for the record, it's not clear whether these were our troops or

22 troops of another army and so on?

23 A. Two trenches that were part of the 4th Company of the

24 6th Battalion, these were the trenches. The 4th Company of the

25 6th Battalion of the Zvornik Brigade, two of these trenches had been

Page 6388

1 abandoned because in the late evening, the two trenches had been hit from

2 hand-held launchers and these troops had moved to adjacent trenches. And

3 this part of the line had become empty and was not secured anymore. This

4 is why I went up there so that we would try to cover that so that we

5 wouldn't have any problems and have enemy soldiers move through the gap,

6 come to us from behind and wreak havoc among our troops the next day.

7 Q. Please tell us, who was it that broke through these two trenches?

8 Thank you.

9 A. The shells were fired from Muslim positions from a hand-held

10 launcher of the Muslim Army.

11 Q. Thank you. Was it from the forward line or from the depth of the

12 territory? Could you estimate that at the site when you were assessing

13 the situation? What did the soldiers tell you where did the fire come

14 from, because a hand-held launcher is used in close combat?

15 A. Yes, yes, as it was a hand-held launcher, it was close contact.

16 It means that they were close to the positions of our defence line.

17 Q. Thank you. Just to answer my question completely, did they come

18 over from the front or did they come from the depth of the territory,

19 these shells that were fired against your positions?

20 A. From the front line.

21 Q. Thank you. Can you remember the date on which this happened?

22 Thank you.

23 A. It was during the late hours on the 14th of July, 1995.

24 Q. Thank you. And you went there, as we know, on the 15th of July;

25 is that so?

Page 6389

1 A. Yes, on the 15th of July early in the morning I went to the line.

2 Q. Can you now please tell us what were the combat activities on the

3 15th of July in the zone or defence sector of your battalion? Thank you.

4 A. On that day, the 15th of July, as far as I remember, there was

5 some fire against our positions from the Muslim forces from the sector of

6 Nezuk and Zaseok. And as for our line, I have to say that at the time

7 our line was weakened in terms of troops. We did not have a sufficient

8 number of men to have the line stable, secure, and solid because many of

9 the soldiers had been in the field and had not returned to the battalion

10 yet at the time.

11 Q. Thank you. How did you resolve this issue and how did you

12 implement the order that your commander issued to you once the line had

13 been broken through and once the VRS soldiers had abandoned their

14 positions on the line?

15 A. As far as I remember, some of the troops were sent from the rear

16 of the battalion in order to temporarily fill in this gap.

17 Q. Thank you. Was there any combat going on on the 15th, 16th and

18 17th of July, and if so, can you please describe what sort of combat it

19 was?

20 A. On the 15th of July, 1995, in the evening, as far as I can

21 remember, the commander received an order -- the commander,

22 Ostoja Stanisic received the order from the brigade that we should take

23 over the forward command post of the battalion. While we were carrying

24 out preparations and mobilising the troops, the few of them who were

25 available from the battalion, to take control of the forward command

Page 6390

1 post, two or three soldiers and a commander, perhaps a platoon commander,

2 from the 4th Company arrived in the meantime and they requested that one

3 of the command members should come over to the company which was up in

4 Parlog where there was fierce fighting on the following day, that he

5 should be in the company of the soldiers from this company because there

6 was fear among the troops and our presence was supposed to provide calm

7 and a certain sense of security among the troops.

8 Around 1.00 or 2.00 in the morning, we came to the forward

9 command post of Petrovo Strana, it was the 6th Infantry Battalion, our

10 battalion from Petkovci, the commander and myself and some members of the

11 command itself, I cannot remember all the people who were there at the

12 moment. The commander Ostoja Stanisic remained at the forward command

13 post and he sent me to the left wing, that is to say, to the 4th Company

14 positions, together with the commander or two or three soldiers from this

15 company so that I would link up the line and remain with them and provide

16 a sense of security, because we expected fierce fighting to begin in the

17 early morning on the 16th of July, considering that we were informed, as

18 far as I remember, that the Muslim forces were close by behind the backs

19 of our 4th Battalion and had set some of our equipment on fire, had

20 killed some troops and had made a big fire which caused additional

21 disturbance among the members of our battalion. Therefore, we took these

22 positions up there so that in the morning we would be ready when the

23 expected fierce enemy attack came from the direction of Nezuk and Zaseok

24 from the -- from ahead of us. And from behind us, on the other hand,

25 there would also be an attack of the Muslim Army which was trying to

Page 6391

1 break through from the direction of Srebrenica. So the situation was

2 really difficult.

3 Q. Thank you. You said a moment ago from Nezuk and from Zaseok.

4 Was that a place called Zaseok or a group of hamlets? Thank you.

5 A. In the area in front of our line of defence there were two

6 places. One was called Zaseok and the other was called Nezuk, so two

7 villages.

8 Q. Thank you. Now we have it on the record. You said a moment ago

9 that you had been informed, you didn't say by whom, whether by the

10 brigade or other battalions, that in your rear there were -- there was

11 equipment torched, that a number of soldiers had been killed and that you

12 could see fire burning. Could you tell us about a bit more about this,

13 do you know what had been set on fire, what kind of equipment or pieces

14 of armament and so on? Thank you.

15 A. General, perhaps you misunderstood or maybe I misspoke. My

16 commander probably received information from those who could observe

17 this. Maybe it was by the 4th Battalion or the Boskovic Battalion, I

18 don't know. But it boils down to this: They said that they had seen the

19 fire up there and that a number of soldiers had been killed and that some

20 equipment was destroyed. We could not observe that portion. We did not

21 have a line of visibility. Now, had we been on the line at the time,

22 perhaps we could have seen this but we did not.

23 Q. Thank you. Well, that's all I wanted because -- for the purposes

24 of the record. Now, could you please tell us, did such combat extend to

25 the 16th? So was there combat in the sector covered by your battalion?

Page 6392

1 Thank you.

2 A. As I've already said, on the 16th of July in early -- early in

3 the morning I was at the forward command post. Or rather, he had ordered

4 me to go to the 4th Company to the left flank of our battalion and to be

5 in the trench there where we could maintain communication, radio

6 communication. That's where I went early in the morning. And in the

7 early morning hours, let's say about 4.00 or 5.00, because it was

8 summertime, I could judge, fierce combat began. And from Nezuk and

9 Zaseok and maybe even Medjedja, artillery mortar fire was opened on our

10 positions, and on the other side, our neighbouring battalion was under a

11 fierce attack by Muslim forces. We couldn't see this but we could hear

12 it -- or rather, in the direction of the 4th Battalion, which was to the

13 left of our forces. However, it was foggy, we couldn't really see much.

14 We could just hear a lot of noise and we could hear voices saying, you

15 know, Kill them, massacre them, slit their throats and so on. But we

16 couldn't really see anything because it was -- there was dense fog and --

17 but we received a lot of fire, perhaps hundreds of thousands of shells

18 fell on our positions on that day and many people were wounded and

19 killed.

20 Q. Something was omitted in the transcript, the portions where you

21 said about what these people who were attacking were shouting and from

22 what positions they came and what direction they were going to. Now,

23 please always indicate what direction the attacks came from. You said

24 they were coming from the front line, we know that's in Nezuk, but you

25 should also say from the forces that were being established in

Page 6393

1 Srebrenica. Coming from Srebrenica.

2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, what do you want to know from the

3 witness?

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] My question first was which forces

5 attacked the neighbouring battalion, and the witness mentioned this, but

6 it did not -- it was not recorded in the transcript. And second, which

7 forces were attacking from the direction of Srebrenica.

8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please answer these questions.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Our defence line, the defence line

10 of the 6th Battalion, or rather, the entire line was under artillery fire

11 from Nezuk, Zaseok, and Medjedja. And the 4th Battalion, which was to

12 our left, and their positions were on a hill, were also under mortar fire

13 and they were attacked from the rear by the Muslim forces that were

14 moving from the direction of Srebrenica towards them, trying to break

15 through.

16 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Thank you. Could you tell us please what kind of -- how did

18 this -- how did the troops that were advancing from Srebrenica and coming

19 behind your lines, how did they behave, what did they yell out, what was

20 characteristic of their conduct? The reason I'm asking this is that

21 what -- your earlier words were not recorded in the transcript.

22 A. I understand. The 4th Battalion, which was to the left of our

23 6th Battalion, or rather, the command, was in Baljkovica which was in a

24 valley, and on that morning it was covered in fog. We couldn't see

25 anything. When early in the morning the combat operations began, we

Page 6394

1 could only hear the shouting and the clamour and a lot of shooting.

2 "Allahu Akbar," and "Kill them," and "Slaughter them," and that's all we

3 could hear. We couldn't see anything.

4 Q. Thank you. Tell us now, did you also hear fire, did you hear

5 artillery fire or infantry fire? Thank you.

6 A. Well, there was both artillery and infantry fire.

7 Q. Thank you. Please tell us how did all this end on the 15th and

8 did it continue on the 16th? So how did the combat go on? How did it --

9 and how long did it go on for? Thank you.

10 A. General, what I've just talked about was early in the morning on

11 the 16th of July in 1995, so this began early in the morning at dawn both

12 infantry and artillery fire was opened, and it went on for perhaps up

13 until the afternoon. And as I've already said, I had losses in the

14 4th Company and later on, around 1.30, I too was wounded and taken to the

15 Zvornik hospital.

16 Now, when the combat ended on that day and what happened after my

17 wounding, I really can't tell you.

18 Q. Thank you. That's exactly what I wanted to hear.

19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, you should realise we are just past

20 the time for the first break. We must have the first break now and we

21 will resume at 11.00.

22 The Court Officer will assist you during the break.

23 --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.

24 --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.

25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, Mr. Tolimir, please continue.

Page 6395

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

2 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Since you said -- actually, not that you said but it's a fact

4 that you were wounded on the 16th, I don't want to ask you about that

5 anymore because then it would be second-hand information. I just want to

6 ask you about things that you yourself can confirm.

7 During your cross-examination here on page 1337, the Prosecutor

8 asked you whether you questioned prisoners and whether that was among

9 your tasks, and you said that you considered it your duty to sends Muslim

10 prisoners to the brigade. Can you please tell us which year that was and

11 did that refer to the combat actions at that time?

12 A. This didn't relate to the July 1995 combat actions. This was in

13 1994, when a Muslim soldier was arrested and when he was brought to the

14 command and then when he was sent to the Zvornik Brigade.

15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, for the record, I think you were

16 referring to page 13307 instead of 1337; is that correct?

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You are correct, Your Honour. I

18 made the error. Thank you.

19 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Later during the examination on page 14, they insisted whether

21 you were in charge of interrogating witnesses during the six months that

22 you were performing these duties. And you say here for the transcript

23 during those six months while you were on duty as assistant commander for

24 security, you interrogated any of the prisoners other than this one

25 Muslim who was captured in 1994, as you described. Thank you.

Page 6396

1 A. No, I did not.

2 Q. Thank you. Can you now please tell us for the transcript whether

3 your role during those six months when you were assistant commander for

4 security was an advisory or a command type of function? Thank you.

5 A. General, sir, I carried out different duties in the battalion

6 ranging from assistant commander for security, assistant commander for

7 morale and finally as deputy commander for the 6th Battalion. These

8 duties that I carried out, I carried them out the way I thought they

9 should be carried out and I was listening to the orders of my commander,

10 which is what I said before. In my view, these were separate concrete

11 functions, they were not of an advisory nature at any point in time but

12 were pursuant to the rules of command and this is how we worked. And my

13 commander would know that quite well.

14 Q. Thank you. This is why I asked you in the period while you were

15 carrying out the duty ...

16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Sorry, I didn't realise that. Mr. Gajic.

17 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think I know why

18 Mr. Vanderpuye is on his feet. Mr. Tolimir on page 36 of the transcript

19 today referred to page 13 of the transcript today, not on page 1337 from

20 the Popovic case, so I'm making that correction for the transcript. He

21 wanted to refer to actually pages 13 and 14 of today's transcript.

22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. Now we have it.

23 MR. VANDERPUYE: He is correct.

24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We have it clear on the record. Please carry on,

25 Mr. Tolimir.

Page 6397

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

2 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

3 Q. I asked you, sir, whether during the six months while you were

4 assistant for security, were you able to issue orders, and if so, to whom

5 did you issue orders as assistant commander for security, or was it the

6 case that during that time you were carrying out some other function?

7 Thank you.

8 A. I was not able to issue any orders. I was only receiving orders.

9 Q. Thank you. At that time were you able to make any suggestions or

10 proposals or provide advice about how things should be done to somebody

11 who would perhaps request your advice? Thank you.

12 A. From what I can recall of my work, no advice was sought from me.

13 None of the commanders asked for advice from me.

14 Q. On page 13308 -- I am sorry, I've got the wrong page. I

15 apologise to the interpreters. During the Popovic testimony on

16 page 13001 [as interpreted], lines 1 and 2, you said that Ostoja Stanisic

17 took 20 or 30 soldiers to the brigade because those soldiers were

18 supposed to go to Snagovo. On the basis of what you've said, my question

19 is, are you able to tell us why these soldiers were needed in Snagovo and

20 what was the point of sending them to that sector? Thank you.

21 A. What I know is that my commander, on the 14th of July, took a

22 platoon, I don't know exactly how many men that was, one platoon of

23 soldiers to the Zvornik Brigade because he was asked to bring them so

24 that they could be sent to Snagovo because it was probably assessed that

25 the Muslim forces moving from the direction of Srebrenica could endanger

Page 6398

1 the town of Zvornik itself and the Serb-inhabited settlements.

2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Gajic.

3 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just one small

4 correction. On page 38, line 15, the correct transcript reference would

5 be 13301. This is the Popovic transcript.

6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. Mr. Tolimir.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Gajic. Thank you,

8 Mr. Milosevic.

9 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Mr. Milosevic, since you were wounded, did you perhaps hear later

11 how the fighting ended in the area where you were wounded and in the

12 neighbouring section of the battalion that was there? How did that

13 fighting end? What was the outcome? Thank you.

14 A. Since I was wounded on the 16th of July between 1.00 and

15 2.00 p.m. and taken to the hospital, there were visits. There were many

16 wounded in the hospital including myself, so these wounded people

17 received many visits, and what I heard was that the fighting that day was

18 fierce, it went on for hours in the afternoon. And then at the end of

19 that day it all ended with the Muslim forces passing across our lines

20 where that battalion was and that everything that was in front of them

21 they killed, they burned, and they went to the Muslim territory to the

22 village of Nezuk more precisely. This is what I heard. I wasn't there,

23 so I wasn't able to see that.

24 Q. For the transcript, can you please tell us what Muslim forces

25 these were?