101213ED

Page 8835

1 afternoon, everyone.

2 Examination by Mr. Vanderpuye:

3 Q. Good afternoon to you, Mr. Janjic.

4 A. Good afternoon.

5 Q. We met briefly today and you may not recall so I'll tell you

6 again my name is Kweku Vanderpuye, on behalf of the Prosecution. I'll

7 put some questions to you regarding your evidence today. Just before we

8 get started, I just want to remind you to try to speak a little slower

9 than you might normally, and I will try to do the same, so that the

10 interpreters have an opportunity to understand and interpret for everyone

11 what we discuss today. And if there is anything I ask you that's not

12 clear, just let me know and I'll try to phrase it in a way that we can

13 best understand one another.

14 All right. Do you recall having testified in the case of the

15 Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic on the 20th and 21st of November 2007?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And have you had an opportunity to review your testimony before

18 coming here to court today?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Having reviewed your testimony, does it accurately and fairly

21 reflect what you would say were you to be asked the same questions and

22 examined here today?

23 A. Yes.

24 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I would like to tender the

25 witness's prior testimony. It's P1094. I'd like to tender also the

Page 8836

1 associated exhibits with that testimony: P1095, and P1096.

2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Bear with me for a moment, please. P094 [sic],

3 P095 [sic], and P096 [sic] will be received.

4 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.

5 I do have a longer than normal summary of the witness's testimony

6 but I still think quite brief, that I'd like to read.

7 In July 1995, Mile Janjic was a member of the Bratunac Brigade

8 military police. In the late afternoon of 11 July, Momir Nikolic, the

9 brigade's chief of security, told Janjic and 10 to 15 members of the

10 brigade's military police to go to the Hotel Fontana.

11 There, Janjic met members of General Mladic's security detail,

12 who assigned the group of Bratunac MPs to secure the hotel's perimeter.

13 Following the negotiations which took place at the hotel that night,

14 Janjic and the other MPs were further directed to secure the rooms in the

15 hotel for senior officers.

16 In the early morning of 12 July 1995, Janjic's group of MPs left

17 the Fontana Hotel and reported back to the military police building. A

18 short while later, they received word that Momir Nikolic had instructed

19 that they go to Zuti Most. The commander of the brigade's military

20 police unit, Mirko Jankovic, relayed this direction.

21 Janjic's group of MPs went to Zuti Most, where they met Momir

22 Nikolic. He told them to continue towards Potocari. When the group

23 reached Potocari, Nikolic told Janjic that he was to report to and assist

24 Colonel Jankovic. As Janjic did not know Colonel Jankovic, Nikolic

25 pointed him out.

Page 8837

1 Colonel Jankovic told Janjic that buses and trucks would arrive

2 to take the Muslim civilians to Kladanj. He assigned Janjic to assist

3 him in counting the number of Muslims transported out of Potocari.

4 Janjic carried out this task until about dusk, when the operation

5 concluded for the day. Over that period he estimated that some 9.000 and

6 several hundred Muslim men and women and children were transported out of

7 Potocari. A member of the civilian police named Milisav Ilic had also

8 been tasked with keeping track of these numbers.

9 Although Janjic testified that he did not see any Muslims

10 assaulted or abused in any way on either the 12th or the 13th of July, he

11 saw men separated from their families. These men were taken across the

12 street. A member of the Special Police Brigade whose unit was involved

13 in the separations told Janjic that this was being carried out on the

14 orders of General Mladic.

15 During the day, Janjic saw Momir Nikolic in Potocari talking with

16 members of the Special Police. He also saw General Krstic and General

17 Mladic along with his entourage.

18 Later that afternoon, buses arrived to transport the separated

19 men. Once filled, they were driven off toward Bratunac. On the orders

20 of Colonel Jankovic, Janjic counted these separated men. He testified

21 that he saw between 10 and 15 buses, each carrying approximately 70 men.

22 While he could not provide a precise number for the men separated and

23 transported on 13 July, he stated there were "certainly two or three

24 times more" than the previous day.

25 After the first day of transporting Muslims from Potocari, Janjic

Page 8838

1 and the other members of his unit reported back to the military police

2 building, as directed by Momir Nikolic. There they were ordered back to

3 the Hotel Fontana to provide security.

4 The next morning, 13 July, they reported to Momir Nikolic and

5 were assigned back to Potocari to carry out -- to carry on the previous

6 day's work, as Colonel Jankovic had already told Janjic the previous day.

7 Upon returning to Potocari, Janjic saw the same group of Special

8 Police as he'd seen the day before. The buses and trucks also returned,

9 and Momir Nikolic came and went as he had done previously. Colonel

10 Jankovic was also in Potocari and remained throughout the day.

11 Janjic resumed counting the number of people being moved out of

12 Potocari and Muslim men continued to be separated from their families and

13 driven off in buses towards Bratunac. Bratunac Brigade MPs escorted some

14 of these buses which returned shortly after departing. One of Janjic's

15 colleagues told him that the men were being taken to the school in

16 Bratunac where they were held under guard.

17 Near the end of the day, Colonel Jankovic ordered Janjic and

18 other MPs to take a vehicle in the direction of Srebrenica. They were

19 directed -- they were to direct any Muslims that they found to Potocari

20 and to tell them that they would be taken to Kladanj. At around dusk,

21 Janjic carried out this order. When he returned to Potocari, Momir

22 Nikolic told him and the other MPs to report to the military police

23 building. There, Nikolic directed the MPs to secure the Muslim men

24 detained in the schools and on the vehicles near the schools in town.

25 Janjic and the other MP spent the night guarding these men.

Page 8839

1 On the morning of 14 July, soldiers wearing black overalls and

2 black bandanas arrived. Some boarded the buses as the buses began

3 departing. When all the buses had left, Janjic went home to rest.

4 In front of the military police building, either late that

5 afternoon or on the afternoon of 15 July, a colleague told Janjic that

6 they had received an assignment to go to Rocevic. Janjic set out among a

7 group of six MPs. He recalled that among them was Milovan Mitrovic,

8 Slobodan Mijatovic, and Mladen Blagojevic. Janjic recalls reading a sign

9 post indicating Rocevic on the road before their vehicle came to a stop

10 at a school. He saw 10 to 15 soldiers whom he recognised as being

11 members of the Bratunac Brigade from Zenica. He saw them in a meadow

12 near the school. He saw a white UN APC, and Commander Mirko Jankovic and

13 Zoran Zivanovic of the Bratunac military police were also there.

14 At some point, Janjic learned from the group of soldiers that

15 they were securing the school which they said was full of Muslims. They

16 told Janjic that the prisoners were eventually to be transported in the

17 direction of Teocak.

18 Janjic and the MPs with whom he arrived remained in Rocevic for a

19 relatively short period. As they prepared to leave, Janjic heard Mirko

20 Jankovic telling Zivanovic, "You need to organise yourselves and gather

21 up the other inhabitants to help you in this assignment." In essence,

22 that he was to remain there. Janjic was not sure if Zivanovic ultimately

23 returned with the group or with Mirko Jankovic in the APC.

24 About a week to 10 days later, Janjic and other members of the

25 unit confronted Mirko Jankovic about their deployment on 12 and 13 July.

Page 8840

1 Janjic said that they felt they had been "infringed upon" because of the

2 absence of a military police command cadre. That is, about Mirko

3 Jankovic working separately from the unit. According to Janjic, Jankovic

4 and Mile Petrovic explained that they had spent two days with Momir

5 Nikolic during which they discharged several assignments. Jankovic

6 mentioned, for example, that as he was the only one who could operate a

7 captured UNPROFOR APC, he was sent on various assignments with the

8 vehicle. He was tasked with gathering groups of Muslim refugees and with

9 escorting Nikolic and Mile Petrovic to Konjevic Polje on several

10 occasions. He also mentioned that he met with high-ranking officers and

11 referred to an individual known as "Pop." Although Janjic testified he

12 did not know who "Pop" was and that he did not know who the Drina Corps

13 chief of security was, he testified that Ljubisa Beara, of the VRS Main

14 Staff, with whom he -- whom he saw after the fall of Srebrenica at the

15 brigade command, was Momir Nikolic's superior.

16 That concludes my summary, Mr. President, and I have a number of

17 questions to follow up on with the witness.

18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That was indeed a very exhaustive summary. I'm a

19 little bit hesitant to call it a summary with this length.

20 Go ahead, please.

21 MR. VANDERPUYE: I very much appreciate your indulgence,

22 Mr. President.

23 Q. Mr. Janjic, I have a few questions with respect to your testimony

24 that I'd like you to provide evidence on.

25 You were assigned the task of counting how many civilians had

Page 8841

1 been transported out of Potocari, by Colonel Jankovic; is that right?

2 A. Can I answer later on? And may I say something about the summary

3 of yours, and perhaps you should have asked me whether I stand by it and

4 whether that was what I said and things to that effect.

5 Q. All right. Why don't we start like this: Why don't you see if

6 you can answer the question first and then we'll address the issues in

7 the summary. Is that all right?

8 A. All right. The answer is yes to your question.

9 Q. All right. And when you were assigned this task by Colonel

10 Jankovic, did you know who he was, that is, what position he held in the

11 VRS?

12 A. Other than his rank, by the very fact that Mr. Nikolic told me to

13 go to Mr. Jankovic, I knew automatically that he would be a colonel. I

14 didn't know him from before and I didn't know what his position in the

15 army was. In other words, I met Mr. Jankovic, or Colonel Jankovic, then

16 and there.

17 Q. Did Momir Nikolic tell you anything about what unit in the VRS he

18 belonged to; whether he belonged to a superior unit, a subordinate unit?

19 A. No. He didn't say anything other than to report to him, and he

20 pointed him out, he actually pointed to the person.

21 Q. As you sit here today, can you tell us, do you know what position

22 Colonel Jankovic had back in July 1995?

23 A. I don't know what his position was in July 1995.

24 Q. When you were assigned this task by Colonel Jankovic, did he tell

25 you in particular what to do, that is, how to go about counting this

Page 8842

1 massive number of people that you saw in Potocari when you were there?

2 A. He did not explain the manner in how I should do that but he just

3 wanted me to report what the number of persons on buses and trucks was.

4 Q. All right. And how did you go about doing that? If you could

5 tell us just briefly how you did it.

6 A. The first two to three hours after I received this assignment, a

7 few colleagues, military policemen and I, literally counted every single

8 person boarding a vehicle. We stood, usually two of us, at the door and

9 we would count the persons getting on. However, if we did not succeed in

10 doing that, if a larger number of people came in at the same time, we

11 would sometimes even go on the bus and count them over, but normally we

12 would just count every single individual boarding the vehicle.

13 Q. After these first two or three hours, how did you count the

14 number of individuals that were being bussed out of Potocari?

15 A. After the first two to three hours, I proposed to Colonel

16 Jankovic -- and it was my own proposal, I asked for his approval, because

17 it was impossible to count all the people in this manner, and the crowds

18 were getting bigger and bigger, so I proposed that we just count, as a

19 sample, the number of people on a bus or a truck, and those figures would

20 usually be approximately similar. In other words, a similar number of

21 people would fit in a bus or a truck. So I asked him if we could just

22 count the number of buses and then later on to reconstruct and come to an

23 approximate figure of the total number of people. And he approved of

24 that method.

25 Q. How many people did you estimate -- I think I read in your

Page 8843

1 transcript, and you can correct me if you're [sic] wrong but you

2 estimated about 70 people for a bus; is that right?

3 A. Yes. My answer is yes.

4 Q. And how many people did you estimate could fit in a truck?

5 A. Large trucks were used mainly for women and children. These were

6 huge trucks that could fit 150 to 170 persons.

7 Q. Now, you said that you approached Colonel Jankovic about this

8 method that you were going to use, and he approved that; is that right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And in your testimony you mentioned someone by the name of

11 Milisav Ilic. Do you remember that? I think you mentioned that he was a

12 police officer.

13 A. Milisav Ilic was a police officer. I mentioned him because he

14 was on a similar assignment in those couple of days as I was. In other

15 words, determining the exact -- establishing the exact number of persons

16 leaving that area.

17 Q. Did you work with him in order to work out the number of

18 individuals that you were counting, that were being bussed out of

19 Potocari, or did you work independently of him, if you can recall?

20 A. We worked independently. I've already said that. He did not go

21 on or into any of the buses. I know that he asked me to tell him what

22 the approximate number of individuals that could fit in a bus or a truck

23 would be. We did have a brief meeting with Colonel Jankovic on the next

24 day, because he told us that we should be more careful about figuring out

25 the number of persons who were leaving the area, and I concluded, based

Page 8844

1 on that, that he had information both that I provided on the number of

2 individuals as well as information provided by Milisav Ilic.

3 Q. In terms of the information that you provided Colonel Jankovic,

4 did you provide that to him periodically or was that an end-of-day tally

5 or something like that?

6 A. At the end of the day certainly there was a total tally, as it

7 were, and -- but we also had contacts, several contacts during the day so

8 that I would keep him up to date on the number of individuals.

9 Q. With respect to the contacts that you had with him periodically

10 during the day, was that just with you and Colonel Jankovic, or were

11 there other individuals also involved during these contacts?

12 A. On several occasions I approached him briefly, but there was also

13 an occasion on the following day when Mr. Milisav Ilic was present too,

14 and that's when he actually told us to be more careful about the figures

15 we were providing.

16 Q. Were you the only member of the military police from your brigade

17 that was participating in counting the individuals in Potocari?

18 A. On the first day, in those first two to three hours, I had help

19 from a number of colleagues, a couple of colleagues. Later on, when we

20 started counting the vehicles and then give a breakdown of the

21 individuals per vehicle, at the end, I could do the job myself, there was

22 no need for anyone else to be there, and then the final figure could be

23 deduced from that at the end. It didn't have to be done immediately.

24 Q. The colleagues that you're referring to, were they members of the

25 military police as well?

Page 8845

1 A. Yes. They were colleagues of mine, military police officers.

2 Q. Do you remember their names, by any chance?

3 A. I can name a few names for sure: Radenko Zaric, Milovan

4 Mitrovic, Milan Gvozdenovic. Those would be the names I can remember.

5 Q. Were you in uniform, if you recall, during this period of time?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And could you just describe your uniform so the Trial Chamber has

8 a clear picture of what it looked like?

9 A. We had uniform uniforms, as it were. They were green camouflage

10 uniforms. The whole brigade wore the same kind of uniform. We didn't --

11 the military police did not have a special uniform, but we did have white

12 belts, and that stood out, and we also had emblems on our left sleeve.

13 We also wore ribbons. They were some 10 to 12 centimetres long. We

14 would put them on our left sleeve, and you could make us out easily. And

15 there was also the words of the brigade, you know, so it was really quite

16 visible, it stood out.

17 Q. I'd like to ask you a couple of questions about the separated

18 men. In your testimony, and once again you correct me if I'm wrong, but

19 in your testimony you indicated that you saw men being separated; is that

20 right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And where was this? When and where was it?

23 A. The men were separated before they reached the vehicle. They

24 were separated on the way from when they left the line where there was

25 this red and white ribbon, then they would let through a group of people,

Page 8846

1 men, women and children, and as they were going towards us, they would go

2 through two lines of police, special military police, the men were

3 separated, and the group that was going towards Srebrenica was on the

4 right-hand side, and the buses were on the right-hand side, if you look

5 from Bratunac to Srebrenica, so the men were separated there, and the

6 women and children would board the buses which were on the right-hand

7 side of the road from Srebrenica to Bratunac.

8 Q. After the men were separated, or during the separation process,

9 can you tell us, were you able to see where they were taken or where they

10 went?

11 A. I could see, because they went by me and towards the bus, and

12 I was always around the buses. They would pass by the bus along the left

13 side of the bus, they would continue on, and then they would take a turn

14 to the left, towards a white house, on the left side of the road from

15 Srebrenica to Bratunac. They would remain there, and once the yard was

16 full of people, because that's what was done on the first day, they would

17 be brought to the yard of that building, of that house, and they would be

18 kept there, but later on, there were too many people so they would just

19 remain on the side of the road, in the meadows, they would sit there and

20 wait for the transport to come.

21 Q. Were you able to see if there were -- there was a military

22 presence near that white house where you saw these separated men being

23 taken? Did you recognise anybody there?

24 A. Well, I can say that this line through which they had to, or by

25 which they had to pass was numerous, there were many of them present

Page 8847

1 there, and I'm talking about the line of soldiers that was there by which

2 the people would have to go to that -- to get to the house, but how many

3 of them there were, I don't know, I didn't count them.

4 Q. Did you yourself have any occasion to go by that house?

5 A. I didn't go by that house because there was no need for that.

6 The house was opposite the area where I remained those two days, but

7 I could see the house from there and I could see the yard as well.

8 Q. Did you see Colonel Jankovic go by that house while you were

9 there or in the area?

10 A. The house was on the left-hand side of the road going from -- to

11 Bratunac from Srebrenica. Colonel Jankovic was not frequently on the

12 side where I was, and I was on the opposite side. He was usually on the

13 opposite side. And he spent most of his time with his back turned to the

14 yard of that house. Some ten metres perhaps was the yard of that house,

15 some ten metres behind his back. But on one occasion, and I was present

16 there, he actually addressed the people who were in the yard but I never

17 saw him going into the yard or into the house.

18 Q. When he addressed the people in the yard, did you happen to hear

19 what he said? Can you tell us?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Tell us what he said and let us know what people you're talking

22 about that he addressed.

23 A. What he said happened after a mutiny of sorts, if I can call it

24 that. Well, there was a commotion in that crowd of people, in the yard.

25 I heard them beginning to ask, "Why are we being separated from the women

Page 8848

1 and children, and when are we getting anywhere?" and things to that

2 effect. They weren't violent or anything of that sort but they simply

3 spoke up. They rebelled, as it were. And at that point in time,

4 I crossed over and I heard Mr. Jankovic tell them that there was no need

5 for panic, that they would remain there briefly, would be kept there till

6 the end of the day, and then the buses would arrive and they would be

7 taken and their families would arrive as well.

8 You asked me what individuals these were. These were mostly

9 Muslim men who had already been separated from the women and children at

10 that point.

11 Q. Did Colonel Jankovic tell them where they would be taken at that

12 point? It's just not clear on the record, that's why I'm asking.

13 A. As I mentioned a few moments ago, he said -- he told them that at

14 the end of the day, buses would come to get them, and that their wives

15 and children, their families, would arrive, and that really transpired.

16 At the end of the day, the buses did come.

17 Q. I guess what I'm getting at is did he say to them that they were

18 going to be taken to Kladanj or they were going to be taken to some

19 particular location at that point?

20 A. Well, the word "Kladanj" was repeatedly mentioned on that entire

21 day. It was always said and it was mentioned to the women and the

22 children and it referred to the men as well. Everyone, it was said, was

23 being taken to Kladanj. It was mentioned on a daily basis.

24 Q. I understand that but did Colonel Jankovic say that at the

25 particular time concerning the conversation that we are talking about

Page 8849

1 now?

2 A. I cannot recall that. It's been a long time. So I'm not sure

3 whether he mentioned it then or not. I'm not sure. But he said what

4 I've said earlier, that their families would arrive and that the buses

5 would come and -- at the end of the day, but I can't recall anything

6 else. It's been a long time.

7 Q. Do you recall approximately how many men, if you can estimate,

8 were in that yard near the house at the time that Colonel Jankovic said

9 this, or at the time that they spoke up, as you say?

10 A. Well, if at the end of the day 10 to 15 buses left, and we said

11 that there was some 70 people per bus, and this was already late in the

12 afternoon, perhaps an hour or two before all the buses had gone, perhaps

13 there were somewhat fewer of them than the number of people who had

14 already gone, so let's say perhaps there were under 10 busloads at that

15 point in time in the yard.

16 Q. All right. I think we can probably work the math out. Did you

17 see Colonel Jankovic relatively in the same area also on the 13th of

18 July?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And what was he doing on that day?

21 A. The same things he was doing on the 12th, except for that

22 occasion when -- except that he didn't address those people there as he

23 did the day before. He was standing around, walking up and down the

24 road. He was jotting something down. And I assumed that maybe he didn't

25 really trust me or the other police, the other military police, and I'm

Page 8850

1 not sure, I can't really claim that, but I think he may have been

2 counting the buses himself.

3 Q. When you say you assume that he didn't really -- he might not

4 have trusted you or the other police, can you tell us why you think that

5 or why you would make that assumption?

6 A. I am saying this because I noticed that - I'm almost sure but

7 I didn't look at the notes - I had the impression looking at him,

8 following his movements, that he was also counting the vehicles. Why

9 would he be counting them himself if we were already counting them?

10 I mean, the conclusion is that he probably didn't trust us, believe us.

11 Q. Besides you and Mr. Ilic that you refer to, did you see Colonel

12 Jankovic engaging any other police officers, military police, or other

13 soldiers, or officers, while you were in Potocari, either on the 12th or

14 the 13th of July?

15 A. I can say with a lot of certainty that I did not see him address

16 any police officers or the soldiers. A large number of soldiers were

17 there. They were curious. They were there for various reasons. But

18 I really have to say that they did kind of stop to exchange a few words

19 with him. I don't know what they were talking about, though.

20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, we are running out of time.

21 MR. VANDERPUYE: I see it is the break, and now is a good time to

22 break, with the Court's leave.

23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I have to refer to page 57, lines 4 and 5, the

24 numbers are not recorded properly. It should read P1095 and P1096. And

25 if I recall correctly and understood the witness correctly, he wanted to

Page 8851

1 make some remarks or corrections to the summary you read out at the

2 beginning of the testimony.

3 MR. VANDERPUYE: That's correct.

4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You should consider that during the break. We

5 adjourn and resume quarter past 6.00.

6 --- Recess taken at 5.47 p.m.

7 --- On resuming at 6.16 p.m.

8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye, please carry on.

9 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you very much, Mr. President.

10 Q. I just want to pick up where Mr. President left off, and he

11 indicated just before we broke, reminded me that you had some

12 corrections, I think you wanted to make with respect to the summary that

13 I read out a little bit earlier. Is that right, Mr. Janjic?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Okay. Why don't you tell us what you'd like to correct.

16 A. First of all, at the beginning, at the very beginning of the

17 summary, you mentioned two to three times "Janjic's group." This is

18 incorrect, in my opinion. I think that it would be more realistic to say

19 a group of military policemen including Mile Janjic, who was present, or

20 something like that.

21 Q. Okay. Thank you for that. It was intended to mean the group

22 that you were among, but I appreciate that. Is there anything else?

23 A. And at the end, a bus -- actually buses were mentioned in the Vuk

24 Karadzic school in Bratunac. Persons arrived in the morning, you

25 described them in black uniforms, and the buses departing. And then you

Page 8852

1 say, when all the buses had left from the school and around school,

2 Janjic went home, but I think that it should be that once the first buses

3 left, I was in a specific area, and it was known where I was, so when

4 those vehicles left that were in the immediate vicinity of the place

5 where I was, I then left.

6 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Janjic.

7 If you could, and I think it might be helpful, just to remind us

8 where you were when those vehicles left.

9 A. The whole time on the 13th, in the evening, when I was there, in

10 the immediate vicinity of the Bratunac SUP, some 100 metres from the Vuk

11 Karadzic school, closer to the SUP, where I was perhaps from the school

12 to the SUP, it's 130 to 140 metres. This is the area where I was moving

13 around. It's some 100 metres away from the school. There is a bakery

14 nearby.

15 Q. Thank you for that clarification. I'd like ask you a few other

16 follow-up questions, if I may. First, I did mention this police officer

17 named Ilic before. He was a civilian police officer; is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Okay. And did he wear a uniform similar to you? In other words,

20 were civilian police uniforms similar to military police uniforms?

21 A. The uniforms were not similar at all. We wore green camouflage

22 uniforms. The police, the civilian police, wore blue camouflage

23 uniforms. And on both those days that Mr. Ilic was in Potocari, he was

24 in a blue police camouflage uniform.

25 Q. Did the civilian police wear white belts, as you've indicated the

Page 8853

1 military police did?

2 A. No.

3 Q. And with respect to the white belts that the military police wore

4 that you said, can you tell us, can you describe how those belts were

5 worn?

6 A. The belts were worn so that they were visible. They were worn

7 over the belt that you wore in your pants. They were worn over the waist

8 belt. They were white. It wasn't a rule that all policemen had a pistol

9 on their belt. We were issued only with automatic weapons. Only

10 policemen who privately owned a pistol wore them. For example, I had a

11 pistol that I owned, that was my own, and I wore it on my white belt, and

12 there were a couple of colleagues, policemen, who wore pistols. They

13 were not issued to us and it was not obligatory that we wear them.

14 Q. Did you wear your belt across your shoulder, across your front?

15 Did it cover that part of your body as well?

16 A. I know what you're asking. That kind of belt that was crossed

17 across the chest, that is something that was worn in the -- I served in

18 the regular JNA and I saw military police officers who wore that like

19 that. None of us actually had that kind of belt. We wore a regular belt

20 at the waist. Nobody wore these belts that were on the shoulders.

21 Q. All right. You certain of that?

22 A. Absolutely sure, as far as the Bratunac Brigade military police

23 is concerned.

24 Q. Okay. You mentioned in your testimony that at a certain point,

25 and you were not certain of the date, you went with some other MPs to

Page 8854

1 Rocevic. Do you remember giving that testimony?

2 A. I do, yes.

3 Q. Now, it's a little unclear from your testimony, but can you tell

4 us about how long a period you were there, you spent in Rocevic?

5 A. I think that I always said that it was some 15 to 20 minutes,

6 definitely not more than half an hour.

7 Q. What was your assignment?

8 A. I didn't know what assignment it was at that time. I don't even

9 know it now. I never knew it. I don't know why we went there, because

10 we didn't do anything.

11 Q. How long did it take for you to get there, from Bratunac is where

12 I think you set out from?

13 A. We set out from Bratunac, we took a Pinzgauer and a combat

14 vehicle. They were moving a bit more slowly. We needed more than an

15 hour, maybe even an hour and a half, to reach that place. You don't need

16 an hour if you're going by car, though.

17 Q. Okay. During the -- you said about 20 minutes that you were

18 there, what specifically were you doing?

19 A. When we arrived, and I said this a number of times, the vehicle

20 stopped in front of a specific school at the back, in front of the gym,

21 in the yard. A number of policemen didn't get out of the vehicle.

22 I did. We got off there, we exchanged a few words with persons who were

23 there already, we got into the vehicle again and returned towards

24 Zvornik.

25 Q. I think you indicated in your testimony that you were told at

Page 8855

1 some point that there were prisoners in the school, or there were Muslims

2 in the school. Do you remember that?

3 A. I said earlier that we exchanged a few words with people who were

4 already there. We made a few comments, we chatted, and I found out from

5 them, and I will agree with you, that they had said that there were

6 prisoners, Muslim prisoners, in the school, that they were in the school

7 itself.

8 Q. All right. I'd like to show you P0094. And I have to go to page

9 191 in that exhibit. When you first arrived at the school, or in the

10 area of the school, you mentioned that you saw some men from Zenica.

11 They were part of the Bratunac Brigade. Do you recall that testimony?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Where did you see those men in relation to the school?

14 A. Perhaps it would be easier, I already have the photo in front of

15 me, I could show you, if possible. Or I could also say it, if I cannot

16 point it out. As I'm looking at the photograph, there are two basketball

17 baskets, one is in front, the other one is to the left, and then between

18 those two hoops, looking towards the fence, there was a white personnel

19 carrier of UNPROFOR. We are looking at an electricity pylon closer to

20 the school. Before the right hoop is where the Pinz was parked, between

21 the pole and the hoop. I came out, I was standing next to the APC, and

22 these people were behind the left hoop as we are looking back towards the

23 gym, on this area that is covered with asphalt.

24 Q. All right. I will have you mark this photograph. That would be

25 very helpful.

Page 8856

1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: With the assistance of the Court Usher.

2 MR. VANDERPUYE:

3 Q. What I'd like you to do is to mark it with numbers and we'll

4 describe what corresponds to the numbers, for the record. So can you

5 tell us, can you mark with number 1 where you saw the men from Zenica,

6 the soldiers you saw from Zenica, if you can see that on this photograph.

7 A. [Marks]

8 Q. Can you mark with number 2 where you saw the APC.

9 A. [Marks]

10 Q. Can you mark with number 3 where you saw the Pinz, and that's the

11 Pinzgauer, the vehicle.

12 A. When we came with the Pinzgauer. [Marks]

13 Q. And can you mark with number 4 where it was that you were, where

14 you got out of the vehicle.

15 A. [Marks]

16 Q. And the other members -- were you the only member of your -- of

17 the military police members that arrived at the school, were you the only

18 one who got out of the vehicle, or were there others?

19 A. As I said earlier, only a few of us came out. Some people did

20 not leave the vehicle. I said that before.

21 Q. All right. That's sufficient for this.

22 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I'd like to have this moved into

23 evidence, Mr. President.

24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This marked photograph will be received as an

25 exhibit.

Page 8857

1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the marked portion of P0094 shall

2 be given exhibit number P01446, Your Honours.

3 MR. VANDERPUYE:

4 Q. I'd like to show you page 190, in this exhibit. And I just want

5 to clarify, for the record: Is this the school that you went to, that

6 you've indicated in your prior testimony? I see that you've marked it

7 and everything but I don't think I asked you if this was the school that

8 you went to.

9 A. Neither one would be right. I didn't attend, nor did I enter it.

10 Q. No, I don't mean either, actually. I mean to ask you, the

11 exhibit that you marked, does that show the school that you were -- where

12 you were in Rocevic?

13 A. It does look like that school, and I can say with certainty that

14 that would be that school. I don't think that there is another one that

15 would be similar, there is one that is exactly the same in Rocevic.

16 Q. Did you have an opportunity to see the school from this

17 perspective now, what we can see on the screen? Did you see this side of

18 the building while you were there?

19 A. The photograph where I made the markings, I had to have seen it

20 when I was there. It's logical that I had seen it when I was already

21 there. So I must have seen it.

22 Q. What I'm referring to is the photograph that's now in the screen

23 in front of you, which is different than the one that you marked. I

24 don't know, maybe it hasn't changed in front of you, but did you have an

25 opportunity to see the school from this perspective? You should see some

Page 8858

1 grass and some trees on the screen in front of you. Do you see that?

2 A. I do have a photo on the screen. The picture is unclear. It's

3 dark. The whole time I was talking about the picture that I marked.

4 What I'm seeing here is quite dark. I really don't recognise it.

5 I can't tell what it is.

6 Q. All right. We will try to adjust it for you so you can see it

7 better.

8 A. I cannot say anything about this photo because if it is the same

9 school, this is taken from a side that I'm not familiar with. The view

10 from the yard is something that I could be sure about.

11 Q. All right. That's why I asked the question. I appreciate your

12 answer.

13 Now, you mentioned in your testimony that you had the opportunity

14 to see Mirko Jankovic at the school; is that right?

15 A. The school in Bratunac is mentioned, the Vuk Karadzic school, and

16 the school in Rocevic too. Which school are you thinking?

17 Q. You're right. I'm thinking of the school in Rocevic.

18 A. I mentioned that I saw him in front of the school in Rocevic.

19 You said earlier in the school, if I understood you correctly.

20 Q. And in your testimony, you mentioned that he had a conversation

21 with -- bear with me for a moment. He had a conversation with someone by

22 the name of Zoran Zivanovic; is that right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Do you know if Zoran Zivanovic returned with the group of MPs

25 that you arrived at Rocevic with? Did he return with you back to

Page 8859

1 Bratunac or did he go -- did he remain at Rocevic or did he go somewhere

2 else?

3 A. He really objected firmly with Mirko Jankovic. He protested. He

4 said that there was no way he would stay, that he wanted to go back. I

5 cannot state with certainty whether he returned with us or whether he sat

6 with Mirko in the APC, the white APC. I really couldn't say which one it

7 was.

8 Q. Now, in your testimony you indicated that you went back to

9 Bratunac after leaving Rocevic. Do you know if other members of the

10 Bratunac military police remained in the Zvornik area after that? And

11 I say "Zvornik area" because I can -- I'm considering that Rocevic is in

12 the Zvornik area, but generally that's what I mean.

13 A. I know for sure that all the military policemen, including

14 myself, who came to Rocevic with the Pinz combat vehicle returned to

15 Bratunac. I cannot say whether Zoran Zivanovic joined us, whether he

16 came back with us or with Mirko. All the other policemen who went there

17 returned together, all of us.

18 Q. I want to show you P00018. These will be -- this is, I should

19 say, the Bratunac military police daily logbook. Are you familiar with

20 such a book?

21 A. I know that there was a duty logbook. I don't know if it's the

22 same one that we are looking at now.

23 Q. Okay. I want to show you an entry in this book, and it's at page

24 19 of the B/C/S and it should be 16 in the English. It reads at the top,

25 at least in the English, and you'll correct us if there is any error in

Page 8860

1 the translation, it reads that it's a daily report, that the duty officer

2 is Mile Petrovic, the deputy duty officer is Mladen Blagojevic, and then

3 on duty at the bridge it reads Rajo Ilic and reception, M. Obackic. What

4 I want to draw your attention to is the second sentence in this report,

5 which reads, one patrol remained in Pilica to secure and guard the

6 Muslims. All else went according to the plan of the military police

7 command. What I'd like to know is, the reference here to the patrol

8 remaining in Pilica to secure and guard the Muslims, can you tell us what

9 that is about? Did you have any information about Bratunac military

10 police in Pilica?

11 A. No, I don't have any information about that. I've never been to

12 Pilica. I don't even know exactly where it is now.

13 Q. I understand that you may not have been to Pilica but did you

14 hear that other members of your unit, the Bratunac military police, were

15 in Pilica on or about, as we can see here, what's dated as 17 July 1995?

16 Either on that day or before that day?

17 A. I've already answered: No, I didn't hear anything about that.

18 Q. I want to show you page 22 in the B/C/S and what should be page

19 19 in the English. Here is another entry in this logbook, it indicates

20 daily report, dated 20th July 1995, duty officer is S. Mijatovic. First,

21 can you tell us who that is, if you know the first name?

22 A. There was only one Mijatovic, that is Slobodan Mijatovic. He was

23 one of the commanders. Deputy commander or a squad commander, something

24 like that.

25 Q. And then we have deputy duty officer, Rajko Ilic. And then it

Page 8861

1 says, "On duty at the bridge, Rade Micic," and in this particular report

2 it indicates in the second sentence that two Muslims who were turned back

3 from Serbia were also brought in and put in custody. What I'd like to

4 know is, first, if you know anything about this.

5 A. I don't know anything about that, and I would also mention the

6 date, because what's a little bit odd in all of this is the fact that the

7 majority of the policemen at that point in time were engaged in Potocari.

8 I think we were there on that day. With the departure of the United

9 Nations, our task was to secure, let's call it, the former base of the UN

10 in Potocari, to prevent civilians from coming in and removing all the

11 equipment and so on. It was a large compound and there was a large

12 number of policemen who were on duty in Potocari for 24 hours a day.

13 That's where I was the first few days. So maybe because of that. I

14 don't know what was happening in the police building. We were spending

15 two days up there, and after that we had one day off to go home. This is

16 what our shifts were like. And this went on for more than 15 days, until

17 all of the stuff was taken out from there. I don't know where it was

18 taken. All of the equipment.

19 Q. Could it be that the UNPROFOR base was vacated, shall we say, on

20 the 21st of July 1995, not on the 20th? Could you be mistaken about that

21 or are you certain? Maybe before you answer it, I should show you the

22 following entry in this logbook. If we could go to, I guess it would be

23 page 23 in the B/C/S, page 20 in the English. In the English, this

24 particular entry says:

25 "Patrols were engaged in securing the road for the passage of

Page 8862

1 General Mladic. A patrol consisting of eight policemen was engaged in

2 securing the UNPROFOR check-point at the battery factory."

3 Does this refresh your recollection with respect to the entries

4 in the notebook, or is this something totally different?

5 A. Well, it is plainly stated here, and that's the same thing that

6 I mentioned earlier, that they were engaged in securing the UNPROFOR

7 compound, and I didn't tell you the precise date. I just said that

8 I think it would have been around those dates, it could have been the

9 19th or the 20th or the 21st.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: The 11th, 12th, or

11 the 13th.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But here we can see that it's the

13 21st, actually, that was the first day, and why wouldn't I believe that?

14 MR. VANDERPUYE:

15 Q. So let me return to my original question, which is about the two

16 Muslims who were turned back from Serbia and put into custody. If we

17 could go back to page 22 in the B/C/S and page 19 in the English so the

18 witness has it in front of him.

19 Have you heard anything about that? Let's start there.

20 A. No, I really haven't.

21 Q. Where would these individuals have been put into custody, as is

22 indicated here in the report?

23 A. All individuals who were held in custody, I know where they were

24 held, they were held at the police station building, and I know of two or

25 three Muslims who were held in custody at the Bratunac Brigade command,

Page 8863

1 but some escaped and that actually led to the removal of the entire squad

2 of police, of military police, the ones before my -- before I became a

3 member -- or that unit. And after their dismissal, a new, actually,

4 military police unit was formed and I became a member of it, but as

5 I said, I know that this happened before my time. I wasn't a member of

6 the police at the time. There was a squad, and there was a room there

7 with a grille on the windows, it was for conscripts that were brought in

8 and held in custody, and if anyone was taken into custody, then they

9 would have had to be brought there because that was the only room that

10 could be used for it. The other rooms were the duty officer's room and

11 there was one or two rooms -- there were one or two rooms for where the

12 police officers slept during the night.

13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, on page 83, lines 5 through 10,

14 there is some confusion about dates. Perhaps you could, for the sake of

15 the record, clarify that with the witness.

16 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. I can't quite work

17 out what that relates to, but --

18 Q. Let me try and clarify something on the record. There appears to

19 be something that may have not been recorded accurately.

20 When I referred to the date that your unit secured the UNPROFOR

21 compound, as was indicated in the logbook in an entry on 20 -- on the

22 21st of July, 1995, you had indicated that you were -- you hadn't given a

23 precise date but were referring just generally to that period of time.

24 Is that right?

25 A. Yes. My answer is yes.

Page 8864

1 Q. And we are now looking at the entry dated 20th July 1995,

2 concerning these two Muslims that were turned back from Serbia and put in

3 custody. You indicated that they would be taken to a police station; is

4 that right?

5 A. You asked me where these persons, if they were taken into

6 custody, could be brought. Now, whether that was actually the case,

7 whether those two individuals were taken anywhere or not, I can't really

8 say. But I described what the rooms look like that were used for -- as

9 detention rooms, and I mentioned an instance with -- that had to do with

10 the escape of some Muslims from some earlier period of time. I explained

11 that.

12 Q. Yes. I appreciate that. Now, with respect to these particular

13 individuals, I understand that you have no knowledge about their

14 circumstances, as is indicated in this report. Is that fair?

15 A. Absolutely. I have no knowledge whatsoever, either whether they

16 were brought in or whatever happened next.

17 Q. Okay. During the period of time that you were on duty in July

18 1995, were there other occasions where Muslim prisoners, people that had

19 been captured, were put in the custody of the brigade? Of the military

20 police unit in particular but of the brigade more generally?

21 A. I don't know anything about that.

22 Q. You were asked some questions in your previous testimony

23 concerning Ljubisa Beara and somebody by the name of Pop. I want to ask

24 you, as you sit here today, do you know who this individual by the name

25 of Pop is, or was, I should say, in July 1995?

Page 8865

1 A. I don't know. I really know who Mr. Jankovic was referring to

2 [as interpreted].

3 Q. I'm sorry, the translation, or the record reads a little oddly.

4 It says that you don't know. "I really know who Mr. Jankovic was

5 referring to." Do you mean you don't really know who Mr. Jankovic was

6 referring to?

7 A. I said I really don't know who Mr. Jankovic was referring to.

8 Q. Thanks for clarifying that. Were you aware that the immediate

9 superior unit to the brigade was the corps, in particular the Drina

10 Corps, relative to the Bratunac Brigade?

11 A. I really couldn't go into that. I don't know. I know that I was

12 a member of the Bratunac Brigade, the military police platoon. As for

13 the rest, I really don't know anything about it. I know that the

14 commander was Vidoje Blagojevic, and that's all -- that's the extent of

15 my knowledge.

16 Q. All right, Mr. Janjic. I have no further questions for you at

17 this time.

18 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.

19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. We are approaching 7.00. I

20 don't know if it is a wise approach to commence your cross-examination.

21 Perhaps it's better to start with that tomorrow, Mr. Tolimir.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I would

23 like to wish a good evening to this witness and just to say that we have

24 no questions for this witness. Thank you.

25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: No questions at all in cross-examination?

Page 8866

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President, that's

2 correct. We have no questions for this witness because the

3 examination-in-chief was rather lengthy and in detail, so we have no

4 questions. Thank you.

5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. As there is no

6 cross-examination, there will be no re-examination.

7 Sir, you will be pleased to hear that this concludes your

8 examination, your testimony, in this courtroom in this trial. Thank you

9 very much for your attendance here and that you were able to help us and

10 assist us finding the truth.

11 You are now free to return to your normal activities, and the

12 court officer will assist you. Thank you very much again.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too, and I would like to

14 thank the Prosecutor and all the -- all those present as well as

15 Mr. Tolimir.

16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.

17 [The witness withdrew]

18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We have to adjourn for the day and resume

19 tomorrow in the afternoon, 2.15 in this courtroom. We adjourn.

20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.58 p.m.,

21 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 14th day of

22 December 2010, at 2.15 p.m.