110407IT

Page 12443

1 again. I have to remind you that the affirmation to tell the truth still

2 applies.

3 Mr. Tolimir is now commencing his cross-examination.

4 Mr. Tolimir.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I would

6 like to greet everybody here, and I wish for this day of the trial and

7 the whole trial to end in accordance with God's will and not my will. I

8 would like particularly like to greet Ms. Lindsay and Momir Nikolic, the

9 witness.

10 WITNESS: MOMIR NIKOLIC [Resumed]

11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:

13 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Nikolic, bearing in mind that you and I

14 speak the same language, I would like to ask you to watch the transcript

15 in front of you which goes out in English and then when it stops, only

16 then should we start speaking. That way we are not going to make

17 problems for the transcribers. Thank you.

18 First of all, I would like to take a look at your statement. It

19 is Prosecution Exhibit 65 ter 7274.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have 7274, please. I'm

21 interested in page 3, line 5. Thank you.

22 Q. Now we have it. And we see that in line 5, the investigator

23 asked you --

24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Just a moment.

25 Mr. Thayer.

Page 12444

1 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President. Just for the record,

2 because there are a number of statements that Mr. Nikolic has provided

3 over the years, this is from 15 December 1999.

4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.

5 Mr. Tolimir, please continue.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Thayer. He knows

7 more precisely the exact date. This is a document we received from the

8 Prosecution.

9 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

10 Q. So the investigator is asking you here what was the basis for the

11 conflict between the Serbs, Muslims, and Croats, and others who lived in

12 that area, and who filled the reserve force.

13 So can you explain to the Trial Chamber how it came about that

14 the conflict broke out in Bosnia-Herzegovina and then in the area where

15 you worked, and in the place where you worked, and especially in

16 Potocari? Thank you.

17 A. First of all, I would like to greet you, General.

18 I'm going to answer this question. This is my statement from

19 1999. This is the first statement that I gave to the investigators of

20 The Hague Tribunal, or, more specifically, the Prosecutor's office, and

21 it was given in Banja Luka. If you have some specific questions about

22 this statement, I can answer them. But you now asked me how it came

23 about that the conflict broke out in the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina

24 and in my area. I would like to ask you one thing. I would like to talk

25 about things that are very familiar to me, and this is the Bratunac

Page 12445

1 municipality, Srebrenica, and the area where I lived.

2 So I know generally how the political and the military conflict

3 in Bosnia and Herzegovina started, but I took no part in the politics,

4 and I think that there are more competent people to testify about that.

5 In my municipality, where I was born, and where I lived, and that is the

6 Bratunac municipality, there were mostly Serbs and Muslims who lived

7 there. As far as I remember the ethnic composition, there were also

8 people who declared themselves as others in Bratunac, and there was

9 between 2 and 3 per cent of them. The relations between the Serbs and

10 Muslims, and I don't know the exact percentages, but I think that there

11 was about 45 per cent of Serbs, around 52 or 53 per cent of Muslims, and

12 2 or 3 per cent of others. There were very few Croats in Bratunac.

13 Maybe ten people, or two or three families.

14 The conflict in Bratunac officially began before the multi-party

15 elections. As far as I know, in that period, in Bratunac, and by this I

16 mean before the conflict broke out, if we are talking about the political

17 life, there were two main political parties. And it was the Party of

18 Democratic Action, or SDA, which was almost 100 percent Muslim, and SDS,

19 the political party which was almost 100 per cent Serb. What I know is

20 that in Bratunac, both Serbs and Muslims were saying that they are not

21 classical political parties but political movements, and that this was

22 all about life and death. Every Serb was supposed to join SDS and every

23 Muslim was supposed to join the SDA.

24 I have to say one more thing. What I know is the following: The

25 previous system was blamed for everything, the Communists were the guilty

Page 12446

1 party for everything that went bad before. After the multi-party

2 elections, the first problem arose, and that was that the authorities

3 could not be formed. They couldn't agree on the composition of the

4 authorities. The winners in the multi-party elections were, logically,

5 the members of the SDA and the members of SDS. Now, I'm not quite sure,

6 so I'm not going to claim anything about it, I don't know whether there

7 was some other political option present at the time, such as radicals or

8 somebody else, but it is also not that important. So there were various

9 conflicts, and they claimed that they were representing their own

10 national interests. And that is why there were conflicts, and that is

11 why there was -- the idea to divide the power in the Bratunac -- Bratunac

12 municipality. When I say "they," I mean members of the political

13 parties. They divided the Bratunac municipality. When I say "divide",

14 of course, they couldn't practically divide it in territorial sense. If

15 there was a village where both Muslims and Serbs lived, they couldn't

16 move and transfer people. But we can say that in principle there where

17 Serbs were in -- in majority, they would proclaim Serb municipality of

18 Bratunac, and where Muslims were in majority, they would proclaim Muslim

19 municipality.

20 So based on the election results, they also attempted to form the

21 executive authorities. I remember that when the election results were

22 recognised they formed the Assembly and the Assembly was also divided

23 along the same lines, just like everything else. Which means that

24 Muslims formed one block and Serbs formed the other block.

25 Now I remember other things as well. I don't know exactly when

Page 12447

1 something happened. Don't ask me about dates. That's something I don't

2 know about. The police station was also divided, so that within one

3 building, the public security station in Bratunac, they formed a police

4 consisting of the Serbs, and on the other side, a police consisting of

5 Muslims.

6 Q. Thank you. You gave us the basis for understanding of the

7 structure of the power in Srebrenica and the region where you lived.

8 Can you tell us, was it possible for the war to break out only

9 based on the relations in Srebrenica between Serb, Muslims and Croats or

10 was the basis for the war something else? Was the basis for the war the

11 issue of remaining in Yugoslavia or seceding from Yugoslavia? Thank you.

12 A. General, sir, I can state my opinion about this.

13 Q. Thank you. But give us a brief account of the facts and what was

14 the basis for the conflicts in Bosnia in general, including Srebrenica,

15 because Srebrenica alone couldn't be the trigger for the war in Bosnia.

16 The Trial Chamber has heard many stories from witnesses who have been

17 here before, but I would like to hear your account, because you are best

18 qualified to speak about it because you also have a university degree.

19 A. All right. Then I will say that in my opinion, the reason for

20 the conflicts in Bosnia in -- generally were different attitudes towards

21 the state in which to live. The Serbs, and now I repeat that I only

22 speak about what I know, the Serbs, both in Bosnia-Herzegovina including

23 Bratunac and that region, wanted to remain in one state, namely,

24 Yugoslavia, or whatever remained of Yugoslavia. But, in principle, it

25 was Yugoslavia. The Muslims, as far as I remember, demanded an

Page 12448

1 independent state of Bosnia-Herzegovina which was -- which would not be

2 part of Yugoslavia.

3 Q. Thank you. I will ask questions and you will have time to answer

4 them all and say everything you want. And since all these things

5 happened, please tell the Trial Chamber which state, internationally

6 recognised state, existed in Bosnia before the conflicts.

7 A. As far as I know, the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina was a

8 republic, part of Yugoslavia.

9 Q. I asked you about a state, not about republics. So which

10 internationally recognised state existed in Bosnia-Herzegovina -- you are

11 an expert in these matters.

12 A. No, I'm not an expert in these matters, but I know that

13 Yugoslavia was a state in which all peoples lived before the conflicts.

14 Q. Thank you. Did the conflicts begin after the secession of

15 Bosnia-Herzegovina from Yugoslavia or before? Thank you.

16 A. As far as I know, the conflicts began after a series of decisions

17 taken by the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina to secede from Yugoslavia.

18 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us roughly when it broke loose from

19 Yugoslavia and when it seceded from the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia,

20 the state that existed then and that you and I had to defend under its

21 constitution?

22 A. I don't know exactly. But it was after a session in Sarajevo

23 when the Serbs were voted down.

24 Q. Was it in April? Thank you.

25 A. Yes, thereabouts.

Page 12449

1 Q. Thank you. Tell us, please, did the peoples in the former SFRY

2 live harmoniously and were the reasons for the conflict brought in from

3 outside to break up that Yugoslavia? Thank you.

4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Previous translation continues] ... It is

5 difficult for the recorder and the interpreters. Please wait until you

6 see that the transcript stops and the same is valid for you, Mr. Tolimir.

7 You were overlapping.

8 Please now provide Mr. Tolimir with your answer.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours. I did

10 it unconsciously. I'll try to proceed in line with your instructions.

11 Mr. Tolimir, would you be so kind as to repeat your question.

12 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Thank you.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

15 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

16 Q. I asked whether the conflicts between the peoples in

17 Bosnia-Herzegovina come about because of interethnic problems and their

18 mutual relations or were they generated outside and imported? Were

19 Muslims and Serbs previously able to live alongside each other and what

20 was it that really triggered the conflicts? Was it external influence?

21 Thank you.

22 A. Well, based on my knowledge of the overall situation, I would say

23 that the Serbs, Muslims and everybody else who lived in the old state of

24 Yugoslavia were able to continue living together in that same Yugoslavia.

25 The breakup of Yugoslavia is a consequence of the wish and the engagement

Page 12450

1 of somebody outside of Yugoslavia.

2 Q. Thank you. Since you worked at the Secretariat for All People's

3 Defence before the war, as you said, tell us, did the Muslim conscripts

4 from Bosnia-Herzegovina go to serve their compulsory military service in

5 Croatia and were they deployed into units in the territory of Croatia

6 which was at war with the Yugoslav People's Army? Thank you.

7 A. General, sir, I would like to correct you in this part for the

8 sake of the facts. I did not work for the Secretariat of All People's

9 Defence before the war. I worked at the TO staff.

10 But my answer is: In the former Yugoslavia, everybody, that is,

11 members of all ethnicities, from my town and my area did serve in units

12 in Croatia, Slovenia. They served -- they did their military service

13 there and so on.

14 Q. Thank you. During the war in Croatia, because the Croatia also

15 waged war for cessation from Yugoslavia, were there military conscripts

16 from all of Bosnia-Herzegovina in JNA units in various garrisons from

17 Slovenia, all the way down to Macedonia? Thank you.

18 A. Yes, there were.

19 Q. Thank you. Now, we reached the time when UNPROFOR and the

20 monitors monitored the truce in Croatia. Do you remember where its

21 headquarters was and what was the starting point of their missions to

22 Croatia during the war?

23 A. I don't know. And I believe that I didn't really understand you

24 fully.

25 If you're asking me about the deployment of UNPROFOR forces, I

Page 12451

1 really don't know where they were or where their headquarters were. I

2 probably knew at the time, but I don't remember.

3 Q. Thank you. I probably didn't put my question clearly enough.

4 Do you remember whether UNPROFOR was deployed during the war in

5 Croatia and Bosnia, namely, Sarajevo, and whether they were also present

6 in Belgrade, and did they use these two destinations for the theatres of

7 war near them? Thank you.

8 A. Yes, I know that UNPROFOR, at the time, was deployed in these

9 towns and that from those centres it was -- it carried out its activities

10 that -- for which it had come.

11 Q. Thank you. Tell us, please, since you know that UNPROFOR was

12 active in both Sarajevo and Belgrade to go to the theatre of war in

13 Vukovar, and other places in Croatia that were near Bosnia, do you know

14 when the activity of UNPROFOR in peacekeeping missions in Bosnia and

15 Herzegovina stopped and when they left Bosnia and why?

16 A. I don't know the exact dates, nor the time-period when their

17 active ceased and when they left.

18 Q. Thank you. Do you remember if UNPROFOR immediately left

19 Bosnia-Herzegovina when the war in Croatia had stopped and when Croatia

20 was recognised by some EU countries?

21 A. I don't know that either, really.

22 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us how come that Bosnia-Herzegovina

23 could be a host for UNPROFOR that went on peacekeeping missions to

24 Croatia where there was a war going on in that country and that area

25 turned into theatre of war itself? I mean, Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Page 12452

1 A. General, sir, I can only speculate about these things you are

2 mentioning. Why, for what reason, I really don't know. I never dealt

3 with these matters myself. I never analysed the situation.

4 I only saw it on television. I wasn't involved in any way, and I

5 wasn't politically active to be present anywhere where there was

6 discussion about that.

7 Q. Thank you. Since you worked at the TO staff, do you remember

8 whether Stipe Mesic was president of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia

9 during the conflicts in Croatia while Croatia was waging war for

10 secession from that same Yugoslavia where he was president? Thank you.

11 A. Yes, I remember, Mr. Mesic was president of the Presidency in

12 Belgrade at the time-period you are referring to.

13 Q. Thank you. Was he also imposed as president at a time when his

14 republic was waging war for secession from that same country in which he

15 was president? Was he imposed upon the others and what do you know about

16 that? Thank you.

17 A. Whether he -- anything was imposed, I don't know. But I know the

18 following facts: That the members of the Presidency rotated in their

19 positions. That's what I know as a common citizen. And at that period,

20 in that time-period, Mr. President --

21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, it was Mr. Mesic's

22 turn to become president of the Presidency.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But whether anything was opposed

24 upon anyone else, I really don't know. That's high politics. I don't

25 understand these things. I only understand anything that a viewer of TV

Page 12453

1 would know, and anybody who followed the media.

2 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Thank you. Since you followed these events through the media and

4 since you worked at the TO staff, did you find it strange that only Stipe

5 Mesic remained in Belgrade as president of the Presidency of the SFRY,

6 whereas, all other representatives or members of parliament or deputies

7 from his country had left and his country was at war with Yugoslavia?

8 Did you find that strange? Thank you.

9 A. Yes. In that period, as a man who followed events and was

10 informed through the media, I did find it strange for a person to be

11 president of the Presidency who represented a state which had broken away

12 from Yugoslavia and where there was a war.

13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Now the interpretation stopped. You are

14 overlapping and violating your own recommendation for the witness.

15 Mr. Tolimir, I would like to ask you if this set of questions is

16 really helpful for your Defence. The witness stated several times

17 clearly that he was just a layperson in these matters in this political

18 conflict. You can put these questions to every citizen of the former

19 Yugoslavia. Use the witness to the best of your purposes.

20 Please carry on.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I

22 apologise to the interpreters and to you, once more.

23 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Please answer another question from this series. Do you happen

25 to remember the words spoken by Mr. Mesic when the war in Croatia ended

Page 12454

1 and when Croatia was recognised and when he left the position of

2 president, he simply walked out before the end of his -- of his term in

3 office? Thank you.

4 Do you remember what he said in rough terms? Thank you.

5 A. General, sir, I can only paraphrase. I, of course, cannot quote

6 verbatim.

7 As far as I remember, when his term in office expired, he said

8 roughly that he had carried out his task in Belgrade or that he had

9 accomplished his mission or something of that kind.

10 Q. Thank you. Do you remember that we in the armed forces, that is,

11 the army and the TO and so on, found it strange that we were being pushed

12 in a war by those who -- who should have protected the peace until

13 yesterday? Did you find it not strange [as interpreted] too? Thank you.

14 A. Yes, I remember.

15 Q. All right. Let's not go into that anymore.

16 Please take a look at page 3, at 65 ter 7274. That's that

17 statement. And take a look at line 18 where you are being asked what

18 your duties were.

19 And you -- your reply is in line 21.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's remark: It's line 25 in English.

21 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

22 Q. "Collecting intelligence data on the enemy in accordance with the

23 rule for the intelligence security of the combat activities and the

24 security of my own unit."

25 And then the following question: "So it was a mixture of

Page 12455

1 intelligence and security work."

2 I needn't read it out any longer. I was sure that you remember.

3 So tell us now when this -- when you gave this interview, did you

4 have a feeling that they really didn't believe your words and that your

5 significance in the war was blown out of proportion? Did you -- was that

6 the feeling that you had?

7 A. Yes. When I gave that first statement, I can answer in the

8 affirmative. Yes, I did have the impression that I was expected to know

9 much more than I really do know.

10 However, I can also say the following. I was not prepared to

11 speak about everything I knew when I gave that first statement.

12 Q. Thank you. This is very important because the Prosecution

13 submitted this document as part of their 65 ter set of documents. So

14 you're free to say whatever you want to say.

15 Let me ask you now, on page 12, line 19 in Serbian, which is page

16 13 in English. Thank you.

17 Here we see that you say in line 19 in Serbian: "The commander

18 of the unit."

19 And then the Prosecutor: "Anyone else who was entitled to give

20 you instructions about whatever needed to be done?"

21 And you say: "In the area of responsibility of the brigade, not

22 without the knowledge of the commander."

23 And then continue to say -- or rather the Prosecutor: "You say

24 without the knowledge of the commander. Does that mean that someone

25 could task you after informing the commander?"

Page 12456

1 And so on.

2 And on page 14 in English and page 13 in Serbian, can we please

3 see it, you say. You say that --

4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Tolimir.

5 Mr. Tolimir. I have to stop you. The interpretation stopped because you

6 were reading too fast, and the interpreters didn't find the relevant part

7 of this document.

8 Could you please indicate where you are reading from?

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President, I

10 apologise. I'm reading from the Serbian, page 13, lines 21 and 22, and

11 the English, page 14, line 21 and 22 and I quote.

12 "I assumed that all the orders are going through the command

13 line."

14 Thank you. End of quote. And then we go on to page 14 in the

15 Serbian language, and page 16 in the English language.

16 And there, on lines 20, 21, and 22, you say, and I quote:

17 "As far as the orders go, I said that as a rule, the orders went

18 along the command line, and this is something that only the commander of

19 the unit has the right to do."

20 And then in line 24 you say: "The commander is responsible for

21 all the units and nobody has the right in any of the units, none of the

22 officers has the right to provide information to anybody, either in a

23 written form or in a verbal form, either over the telephone without the

24 commander's approval," and so on and so forth.

25 In all of those lines, all the way up to page 24 in English, this

Page 12457

1 is where you are answering questions and you're trying to convince the

2 Prosecution that only the commanders had that right.

3 My question is this: During the interviews that you gave or

4 before you came here, did you have an impression that nobody believed

5 that you -- did you not have the right of command, either before the war,

6 during the war, or after the war and that you had to act in keeping with

7 the rules and regulations? Thank you.

8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, this was really a compound question.

9 You have read from so many different parts of this document, it was very

10 difficult to follow.

11 I would like to ask the witness if he is able to answer the

12 question the -- the -- Mr. Tolimir has put to you.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I can do that.

14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Microphone not activated] Go ahead, please.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] General, sir, I believe that I have

16 understood your question, and I will answer in the following way.

17 When I provided those statements, when I was interviewed, on all

18 occasions, before and now, I claim, and I still think that nobody but the

19 commander had the right to issue any orders. In other words, a commander

20 is an officer who has the express authority over the control and the

21 command of all units within the zone of responsibility. In my interviews

22 with the Prosecutors, if that is what you asked me, every time when I

23 spoke to the Prosecutor, I said that I knew who had the right of command

24 and control, that command and control, and everything that constitutes

25 the function of command and control, are within the purview of the

Page 12458

1 commander. I thought that at that time and that's what I said to the

2 Prosecutor, and I still think that. However, let me just explain that I

3 was not sufficiently immersed in the discussions about control and

4 command. I therefore wouldn't be able to tell you exactly how certain

5 things are defined. I dealt with my own area of responsibility, which

6 was intelligence service.

7 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Thank you. Can we now see D148. Bullet point 115. Let's see

9 what the authorities of the brigade commander are. Which was -- will

10 also show us what the authorities of the others in the brigade are. In

11 that, we have to bear in mind the position of this witness as well.

12 Thank you.

13 I know that --

14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Tolimir,

15 you have used the OTP statement with the witness, 1999, 65 ter 7274. Are

16 you going to use it again? Are you tendering it? What is your position?

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. The

18 witness said that he had an opinion and the position about that

19 statement. I will leave it until later, after we have heard all the

20 witness's answers. I don't know whether the Prosecutor will want to

21 tender it into evidence. I will defer my decision until I -- the moment

22 I have heard all the answers by this witness. Thank you.

23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That's fine. That's all I wanted to know. Thank

24 you. Please carry on.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 12459

1 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Now can we see in front of us bullet point 115, where it says

3 that the brigade commander and this is bold, and then I would like to

4 read the rest of this bullet point.

5 "The brigade commander has the exclusive right to command all

6 brigade units and attached units. He bears full responsibility for the

7 work of the brigade command and subordinate commands, for the state of

8 morale, for security and combat readiness, for training, and for the

9 proper performance of tasks. The commander takes decisions, assigns

10 tasks to units, monitors their fulfilment, and demands their strict

11 execution regardless of difficulties that arise during their execution."

12 My question based on this is as follows. Did all of you in the

13 brigade know that only the commander had the right to issue valid

14 decisions tied to the performance of any task during the war? Thank you.

15 A. As far as I'm concerned, I knew. I was aware of the contents of

16 this bullet point 115. I knew that the commander was authorised to make

17 and issue decisions and that he was in charge of the unit of which he was

18 in command, and I suppose that all my other colleagues, officers, were

19 equally aware of that.

20 Q. Thank you. Can we now look at bullet point 116.

21 In your examination-in-chief, you answered to Mr. Thayer's

22 questions. You said that the chief could also issue orders.

23 And now let's look at the bullet point 116: "The staff is the

24 main organ of the brigade command, and it functionally links and

25 integrates the operations of all command organs.

Page 12460

1 "The Chief of Staff directs the work of the staff. He is also

2 the deputy commander of the brigade. The Chief of Staff, in accordance

3 with the commander's decisions, has the right to assign tasks to

4 subordinates."

5 And I would like to end the quote here.

6 My question is this: Does it arise from these two bullet points

7 that only the commander and Chief of Staff in peacetime and in wartime

8 have the right to issue orders to all individuals in the staff and in the

9 brigade, because this is the brigade's regulation. This is the

10 regulation of mountain, infantry, and light brigade.

11 Please, was that the case in your brigade as well, that only the

12 commanders and Chiefs of Staff were in a position to issue orders, them

13 and nobody else? Thank you.

14 A. In my brigade, as far as I know, that was common practice. In

15 other words, the commander was the one who issued orders, and the

16 Chief of Staff was the person who could be authorised by the commander or

17 in his absence to command and control the units in the brigade and give

18 them tasks.

19 Q. Thank you. Please, let's look at the duties of the intelligence

20 organ, and we will find it -- this in bullet point 118.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we go to the following page

22 both in the Serbian version as well as in the English version. And let's

23 display bullet point 118.

24 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

25 Q. We see bullet point 118, where it says and I quote: "The

Page 12461

1 intelligence organ is responsible for and organises intelligence support

2 for combat actions. It provides expert direction for the intelligence

3 activities of intelligence and security organs of subordinate units. It

4 continuously monitors and assesses the enemy and reports the enemy's

5 condition to everybody concerned in the command. It suggests to the

6 commander and Chief of Staff the procedure and resources for intelligence

7 support for the brigade."

8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please slow down while reading. The interpreters

9 can't follow. Please slow down while reading.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 MR. TOLIMIR [Interpretation]

12 Q. "It provides expert direction for the intelligence activities of

13 intelligence and security organs of subordinate units."

14 I do not wish to go on reading from bullet point 118. It's

15 self-explanatory. We, as soldiers, cannot add anything to it or take

16 anything away from it.

17 My question is this: In the brigade command, were you only the

18 organiser of the professional work of your intelligence service? Thank

19 you.

20 A. General, sir, in my brigade, I worked in compliance with this

21 instruction, and I believe that in all of my testimony so far I have

22 spoken about my obligations arising from the intelligence support of the

23 unit. However, I can't agree with you that those were the only tasks

24 that I had. In other words, I had other tasks as well, and those were

25 given to me by the brigade commander.

Page 12462

1 Q. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Nikolic. We will now look at those

2 things that you did as a security organ. We have covered your

3 intelligence duties, but let's see what you did as a security organ.

4 Let's look at bullet point 122.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we go to the right page, 63 in

6 Serbian, bullet point 122; and the English version, can we also display

7 bullet point 122. Thank you.

8 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

9 Q. I'm going to quote to --

10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please read very slowly. Please, very slowly.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Bullet point 122 of the rules of service in the brigades. I'm

14 reading: "The security organ is a specialized organ of the command which

15 organises, implements measures and procedures of counter-intelligence

16 support. It also participates in recommending, organising, and

17 implementing security and self-protection measures which concern the

18 command and other subjects of self-protection."

19 My question: Were you a specialised organ? Was the person

20 responsible for all those tasks and duties, the commander, and other

21 subjects which you organised and directed in professional and specialised

22 terms? Thank you.

23 A. General, sir, this arises from what you have just read. I can

24 only answer in the affirmative and say that I knew, I was aware of the

25 fact that I was a specialised organ, a professional organ, and that I

Page 12463

1 discharged my duties in keeping with the rules that I had to comply with,

2 and also, in compliance with the orders issued to me by the commander.

3 My -- let me be more precise. Your question was whether I was aware that

4 the commander was responsible. I would like to say that it is only

5 self-understandable that everything that is done in any of the sectors,

6 that all the activities are carried out in any of the sectors are within

7 the purview, exclusive purview of the brigade command.

8 Q. Thank you. Please, Mr. Nikolic, let's look at the second

9 paragraph in the same bullet point, where it says:

10 "In terms of expertise, it directs the work of the intelligence

11 and security organs of subordinate units. It organises and directs their

12 work, provides assistance, and controls their activities in completing

13 counter-intelligence activities and duties."

14 My question is this: Did you have the right only in professional

15 terms to control the work of the intelligence and security organs in the

16 battalions of your brigade? Who were they subordinated to? Thank you.

17 A. In my brigade, I controlled the subordinated organs in

18 professional terms. My subordinates were the assistant battalion

19 commanders of -- in charge of security and intelligence.

20 Along the command line, the intelligence and security organs in

21 the battalions were subordinated to the battalion commanders.

22 Q. Thank you. My question is this: When it comes to the structures

23 of the brigade, corps, and the Main Staff, would you say that security

24 intelligence organs were only professional and specialised organs? Did

25 they have the right to command or not? Thank you.

Page 12464

1 A. At all levels, as far as I know, the intelligence and security

2 organs were specialised, professional organs, and both the subordinate

3 and superior commands were supposed to - I'm choosing my words

4 carefully - they were supposed to adopt that attitude.

5 Q. Thank you. Since yesterday, in cross-examination [as

6 interpreted] - if you remember, okay, if not, I will find the reference

7 number - you said that Colonel Jankovic came and told you that he would

8 take over all the duties concerning UNPROFOR and that you would be

9 carrying out his orders. That's what you said, maybe you misspoke.

10 Maybe you didn't choose your words correctly. However, my question is

11 this: Could any intelligence and security organ, either in the corps or

12 the Main Staff, issue orders to you; or is it the case that all the

13 orders had to come from the commander, who was supposed to direct you?

14 Thank you.

15 A. Yes, General. In principle, it's the way you have put it, and

16 theoretically, it is like that. That is how the rules and the books put

17 it.

18 But I was speaking about what was happening in practice. I know

19 what should have been done and how things should have functioned. I knew

20 then and I know now. However, I may have chosen too harsh an expression,

21 saying that he came up to me and said, I command. But he came to my

22 office and he said that he had -- he was there upon the authorisation of

23 the Main Staff and that in the coming period he would take over all

24 contacts that I had, and that he was the one who was supposed to be in

25 charge of that, I believe.

Page 12465

1 That's roughly what I said. And I know that, under normal

2 conditions, the intelligence organs or any other professional organs

3 cannot issue any orders, but I cannot rule out the possibility that

4 Mr. Jankovic and, indeed, I suppose that's the way it went, that he was

5 authorised by the Main Staff - I don't know who exactly in the

6 Main Staff - that he could come to my office. So he hadn't come of his

7 own accord, without a plan. But he came because somebody sent him to my

8 office. And I can tell you that I'm a man, an officer, who didn't ask

9 many questions about why anybody had come from a superior command and why

10 he was demanding that something be done. I carried out orders and I --

11 my feeling was, my attitude was that we were doing the same job. I never

12 wondered why anybody had come from the corps command or from the

13 Main Staff, telling me what should be done, especially not in a situation

14 when an operation was being carried out, and somebody was there from the

15 Main Staff, and General Mladic and the others were there, so I didn't ask

16 such questions. Theoretically, though, whatever you said is something

17 that I know too.

18 Q. Thank you. I know that somebody can transgress their

19 authorities, but I want to define how it should have been according to

20 the rules, and then we can discuss what happened in practice, whether

21 somebody did not act in line with these rules and exceed their authority.

22 It is my duty to tell you that on page 51, in lines 1 and 2 of your

23 statement, 65 ter number 7274.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please see it.

25 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Page 12466

1 Q. You said the following. I quote --

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please see 65 ter 7274 in

3 e-court. 65 ter 7274, yes, that's correct. That's the statement dated

4 15 December 1999. Page 51 in Serbian.

5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Microphone not activated]

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Actually, it's 47 in Serbian and 51

7 in English. Thank you. I apologise. In Serbian, it's 47.

8 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

9 Q. And you say in the first two lines: "So during all of that day

10 you were passing communications between Colonel Jankovic and the

11 Drina Corps HQ."

12 And you answered: "Colonel Jankovic, what he wanted to be passed

13 on, he would write in -- write it down with his hand, my task was to take

14 this to the communications centre to be typed and sent to the addressed

15 commands: The Drina Corps command, and the Main Staff," et cetera.

16 My question to you is: Did Colonel Jankovic speak English? And

17 on which day did he come to see you? Thank you.

18 A. Colonel Jankovic, as far as I know, spoke some English, but he

19 didn't speak it well. I was able to see for myself during meetings. And

20 he came to the -- my office at the Bratunac Brigade on the 8th of July,

21 1995.

22 Q. Thank you. Since he completed a course of English in the JNA and

23 spoke English, was he appointed to maintain contacts with the UNPROFOR

24 during the operation? Did he come to see you earlier?

25 A. Well, I didn't speak English and communicated with UNPROFOR and

Page 12467

1 anybody who represented the international community in Srebrenica. Of

2 course, I didn't even know that Colonel Jankovic spoke English until the

3 first meeting on the 11th in the evening hours. Mr. Jankovic tried to

4 interpret then, and then I realized that he spoke some English. But the

5 fact that he spoke English, to my mind, can't have been a reason for him

6 to have talks with UNPROFOR and come to my office and use it all that

7 time, write reports and do everything that I used to do until then. But,

8 certainly, it was a good thing that he knew English, and it was certainly

9 easier on him than on me.

10 Q. Thank you. Please tell the Trial Chamber who was it in your

11 brigade who was in charge of communication with UNPROFOR so that we know.

12 Thank you.

13 A. I have already stated that I was the liaison officer with

14 everybody on the other side.

15 Q. Thank you. Did you go about that pursuant to the authorisation

16 issued by your brigade commander? Thank you.

17 A. Yes. My commander authorised me to do that.

18 Q. Thank you. Did General Mladic, as a commander, have the right to

19 authorise Colonel Jankovic for liaison with UNPROFOR as he thought he

20 spoke English excellently, and that's why he eliminated Petar from the

21 talks?

22 A. Well, General, both you and I know that General Mladic could do

23 whatever he wanted, so I really don't know if General Mladic authorised

24 Colonel Jankovic. But if you're asking me whether he had the right to do

25 so, well, to my mind, he could do whatever he pleased.

Page 12468

1 Q. Thank you. I didn't ask you whether he could do whatever he

2 pleased. I asked you whether he, as the commander of the Main Staff, had

3 the right to take with him an officer who spoke English to the zone where

4 there was UNPROFOR. I only asked him [as interpreted] whether he had the

5 right to do so, not whether he could do whatever he pleased. This is a

6 court of law. Thank you.

7 A. Well, you're asking me something that is perfectly clear.

8 General Mladic was the commander of the Main Staff and he had the right

9 to take with him whoever he wanted to, including, Colonel Jankovic.

10 Q. Did your commander know, and General Zivanovic as your second in

11 command, or your -- yeah, whether --

12 THE INTERPRETER: Could the accused please repeat his question.

13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, the interpreters asked you to repeat

14 the question. They didn't catch it.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I apologise for

16 speaking fast and being too far from the microphone.

17 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Did General Mladic, General Zivanovic, and General Blagojevic,

19 the commander of your corps, know that it was you in your brigade whose

20 business it was to liaise with UNPROFOR in the Srebrenica demilitarised

21 zone?

22 A. Yes, they knew.

23 Q. Could they then or did they have the right to reinforce your

24 sector as there were many problems with UNPROFOR during the operations in

25 the direction of the Srebrenica protected zone? Thank you.

Page 12469

1 A. Yes, they did have that right.

2 Q. Thank you. We'll come back to this document later. Now I would

3 like to see D202 on our screens.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] D202. It's the rule-book on the

5 remit of the commands of army corps in peacetime. And we'll see that

6 these rules apply to both brigades and corps. Since we know that all the

7 regulations prevailing in the brigade and the corps of which Mr. Nikolic

8 was a member have been dealt with here.

9 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Do these regulations apply to all officers in the Main Staff?

11 That was the question asked to you, and you replied in the affirmative.

12 Now let me ask you, whether the decisions on the professional

13 work of the security organs --

14 THE INTERPRETER: Could the accused please repeat the last

15 sentence of his question.

16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Again, Mr. Tolimir, the interpreters didn't catch

17 the last part of your question. You should -- could please repeat it.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I'll try

19 to shorten it too, to make it clearer for the witness.

20 Q. Do all duties of the security organs in a brigade, in a corps,

21 and in the Main Staff, are they all defined by the regulations on the

22 professional work in --

23 THE INTERPRETER: We kindly asked the accused to repeat once

24 more.

25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The interpreters -- there must be a problem with

Page 12470

1 the interpretation, the communication between you and the interpreters.

2 Again, they asked you to repeat once more, especially at the end of your

3 question. I don't know what happened. Please repeat.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you,

5 Mr. President.

6 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Are all security organs at the level of brigades, corps, and

8 Main Staff, are they in the possession of the exclusive right of

9 directing the organs in the -- subordinated professional units?

10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Sir, could you provide us with an answer.

11 Perhaps you understood the question better than we did.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understood the question. I just

13 waited for the cursor to stop moving. I'm looking at the screen.

14 General, sir, I can answer your question. At my level, it worked

15 the way you presented it. I can only suppose that it worked the same way

16 at the level of the corps command and at the Main Staff level, but, of

17 course, I don't know.

18 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Thank you. Since, during your testimony, there has been

20 discussion of the corps level and the Main Staff level, let us take a

21 look at D202, which we see now. Let's turn to page 3 in Serbian and page

22 4 in English.

23 That's page 3 in English, and page 4 in Serbian. Sorry, my

24 mistake.

25 We can see it in English now, and we can also see it in Serbian.

Page 12471

1 It says: "Regulations on the responsibilities of the land army

2 corps command in peacetime."

3 We need Article 6. Could we please see it.

4 Thank you. We can see that it says:

5 "The right to command units and institutions of the organic

6 compound of land army corps (hereinafter corps) is under the exclusive

7 responsibility of the commander. Units and institutions outside the

8 corps' organic compound, those temporarily subordinated, are commanded

9 and controlled by the commander only within the limits of the stipulated

10 authorities."

11 And the following paragraph of the same Article reads:

12 "The commander may authorise certain officers from the command to

13 command units and institutions of branches services, but the commander

14 shall continue to bear responsibility for the situation in these units,

15 and for the work of the officers to whom he transferred some of his

16 rights."

17 Here's my question to you: Does -- do these regulations equally

18 apply to the command of the brigade and to the command of your corps?

19 Thank you.

20 A. Yes. The answer is yes.

21 Q. Thank you. Bearing in mind the paragraph 2 of Article 6, the

22 commanders of your corps, brigade, or the Main Staff, did they have the

23 right to transfer certain authorities onto the command as well as the

24 specialised organs? Thank you.

25 A. In keeping what you have just read out, yes, they did have that

Page 12472

1 right.

2 Q. Thank you, Mr. Nikolic. I don't have any intention to contradict

3 your opinion. You are telling us what you think, and I don't want to

4 contradict you. I just wanted to show the Trial Chamber the framework

5 within which you worked. This is a Tribunal, nothing else. There's no

6 reason for us to contradict each other in any of the matters. I don't

7 want to contradict you. I'm just quoting from the rules, and I am asking

8 you to share with us your opinion.

9 And now, could we please look at --

10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, it's time for our first break, and

11 after this general remark, I think it's a good occasion to break and to

12 continue after the break.

13 We resume at 11.00.

14 --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.

15 --- On resuming at 11.04 a.m.

16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, Mr. Tolimir. Please continue.

17 I have to remind both speakers not to overlap, please.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

19 Please, since we still have D202 on the screen, can we please

20 look at Article 9. Could the e-court, please, turn to the page

21 containing Article 9. I would like to read it and then I would like to

22 put a question to the witness based on that Article. Thank you.

23 Can we see the right page in the Serbian language and can we also

24 see the right page in the English version.

25 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Page 12473

1 Q. Now in the Serbian, we see Article 9, the first paragraph thereof

2 says this: "The commander shall command and control subordinate units

3 and institutions within the scope of the responsibility received. He

4 shall be responsible to his superior for his work and the situation in

5 subordinate units and institutions and for proper and timely execution of

6 work and tasks in the competence of the command organ."

7 My question is this: This is a regulation on the authorities of

8 the land army in peace, and you have heard my quotation. Can you please

9 tell us whether the commander of the Drina Corps as well was also

10 duty-bound to carry out the command duties over his corps as envisaged in

11 Article 9? Was he duty-bound to follow the same principles? Thank you.

12 A. Yes, he had to work in compliance with regulations.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can the e-court now please display

15 bullet point 6 -- or, rather, paragraph 6 of Article 9. These are

16 special provisions.

17 Can you go to the following page in the Serbian version as well

18 as. Now we see bullet point 6 in the Serbian version. I'm reading from

19 it. Now we can see it in English as well.

20 I'm reading. Bullet point 6, and I quote:

21 "Managing the security service, being responsible for the

22 security of the command and subordinate units and institutions and taking

23 measures on the basis of regulations and his responsibility."

24 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Please, since we can see that all of these were the duties of a

Page 12474

1 commander on page 1, we saw the title "special provisions", then a

2 subtitle "commander". And now we can see his special authorities. Was

3 it the case in all units of the VRS that the commander was the one who

4 was authorised to command the security service? Was he also responsible

5 for the security of his units? Thank you.

6 A. According to the existing military regulations and rules that I

7 was familiar with, commanders were duty-bound to command and control

8 security services.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at page 16 in

11 Serbian, and page 15 in the English version of the same regulation

12 dealing with the work of security and intelligence organs. Thank you.

13 Thank you. We are looking for page 16. Or, perhaps, maybe we

14 should go in accordance with e-court. It is page 19 in Serbian in

15 e-court, and page 16 in English; again, in e-court.

16 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

17 Q. We see 2.6, security, or rather, organ for intelligence work. We

18 can see it in both versions and I'm going to read what the intelligence

19 organ does.

20 "The organ for intelligence and reconnaissance work is

21 responsible for, under 1, planning, organising and directing intelligence

22 and reconnaissance activities in the corps' zone of responsibility."

23 Bearing this in mind, would you say that the authorities were the

24 same in the responsibility area of the brigade? In other words, did you

25 have the same responsibilities for the brigade within which you operated?

Page 12475

1 Thank you.

2 A. Yes. Those were the tasks that were regulated by the regulations

3 and rules.

4 Q. Does it say under bullet point 2 that the organ for intelligence

5 and reconnaissance work is responsible for organising the collection,

6 processing and studying of intelligence data about foreign armed forces

7 primarily potential aggressors, providing the competent commands with

8 intelligence information and effecting cooperation and so on and so

9 forth.

10 My question is this: Based on bullet point 2 of this regulation,

11 would you say that the intelligence and reconnaissance organ was also in

12 charge of collecting intelligence pertaining to the enemy side or the

13 aggressor side? Thank you.

14 A. I can answer in the affirmative. In other words, in my brigade,

15 I was in charge of that. In other words, the focus of my work was

16 gathering intelligence about the activities of the enemy side.

17 Q. Thank you. Since you were in charge of intelligence and

18 security, can we look at page 35 in Serbian and page 30 in English so as

19 to see what the -- what were your authorities as a security organ in the

20 brigade? We can see Article 29, both in Serbian and in English. Does it

21 say here, in Article 29, under the title "security organ", that:

22 "The security organ is a specialised organ of the command for

23 organising and implementing security measures and undertaking other

24 specialised work in the field of security ..."

25 Were you authorised only as a specialised organ of the command

Page 12476

1 for organising and implementing security measures and other specialist

2 work within the purview of the activities of the security organ? Thank

3 you.

4 A. Yes, I can confirm that I was a special organised [as

5 interpreted] and that I performed those duties in my brigade.

6 Q. Thank you. And now if we look at Article 29, bullet point 1, 2,

7 3, 4. I'm just going to read the first sentences from bullet points 1,

8 2, 3, 4. Article 21 [as interpreted], bullet point 1 says:

9 "Uncovering and preventing intelligence and other subversive

10 activities of foreign intelligence services and hostile Yugoslav

11 immigration."

12 Under 2. Article 29, bullet point 2: "Uncovering and preventing

13 hostile activities of individuals, groups, or organisations against the

14 armed forces ..."

15 Bullet point 3: "Undertaking counter-intelligence measures and

16 activities to protect work, tasks, documents, material, and financial

17 resources ..."

18 Bullet point 4: "Participating in uncovering and preventing

19 serious crimes ..."

20 Based on bullet points 1, 2, 3, and 4, can you say that the --

21 the security organ also detects and prevents enemy activities undertaken

22 on the part of groups and individuals against the unit that the security

23 organ protects? Thank you.

24 A. Yes, this is quite obvious.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And now can we please look at page

Page 12477

1 30 in Serbian and 31 in English.

2 Article 29, bullet point 9. Could the English version go back to

3 Article 29, bullet point 9. Well, we see it, let it stay like this. And

4 now can now the Serbian version display page 31, bullet point 9 of the

5 same Article, please.

6 Bullet point 9 of Article 29, dealing with the work of the

7 security organ. Thank you.

8 I asked for Article 29 on page 35. I apologise for not having

9 been specific earlier. Page 35 in Serbian. Page 35 in Serbian. I

10 apologise. Apologies to the witness, to the Prosecution, to the

11 Trial Chamber, everybody in the courtroom. Thank you.

12 We can now see page 32. And now can we go to bullet point 9?

13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It seems to be on the next page. It is not

14 necessary to repeat many times the same because the poor interpreters

15 have to interpret everything you are saying. Sometimes just wait until

16 it is on the screen and then you may proceed.

17 I think we have it now on the screen. Put your question to the

18 witness, please.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I'll do

20 my best.

21 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Article 9 -- or bullet point 9 says, and I quote:

23 "Expertly directing security organs and the military police in

24 the corps command and the units and in other JNA units in the zone of

25 responsibility ..."

Page 12478

1 Thank you. My next question is this: Was your only authority to

2 professionally command organs and units in the area of responsibility of

3 your brigade? Thank you.

4 A. Within the zone of responsibility of my brigade, in professional

5 terms, I controlled a military police platoon and security and

6 intelligence organs in the subordinated units in the battalion.

7 Q. Thank you. Since you have just mentioned the military police,

8 and since you discussed the same thing with Mr. Thayer during the

9 examination-in-chief, could the court please produce P1297 in e-court?

10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, the document we just had on the

11 screen, D202, is not in your list of documents. At least I can't find

12 it. I would like to see the first page to understand what it is about.

13 The first page, please, of D202.

14 Sir, I see on the bottom of the page the date, 1990. And this

15 was a regulation for the General Staff of the Socialist Federative

16 Republic of Yugoslavia; is that correct? What you see on the screen now.

17 I'm asking --

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I'm asking the witness.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. What I see

21 before me is entitled the Federal Secretariat for All People's Defence,

22 so this originates from 1993. The regulations pertaining to the former

23 JNA.

24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I didn't understand that. I only see the date,

25 1990. And the headline: Federal Secretariat for National Defence,

Page 12479

1 General Staff of the SFRY.

2 Is that correct?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Can you tell me, was this in place later in the

5 Republic of Serbia, and/or in the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina,

6 and/or the Republika Srpska?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't say anything about this

8 specific document because I never used anything coming from that level.

9 However, I can say something about other documents. Those

10 documents which pertain to my sector --

11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Previous translation continues] ... I'm only

12 interested in this document. If you know anything about the validity of

13 this document in the -- in the different republics of the former

14 Yugoslavia after independency of Bosnia and Herzegovina and Republic of

15 Serbia.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really don't know. I can only

17 assume, but I -- I can't be sure.

18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.

19 Mr. Tolimir, please continue.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Bearing

21 in mind what the witness has just said, could the Court please display in

22 e-court page 23 of 65 ter 7247 [as interpreted]. That was tendered by

23 the Prosecutor. The relevant page numbers are 23 in English and 25 in

24 Serbian. Thank you.

25 THE REGISTRAR: [Previous translation continues] ... Your Honours,

Page 12480

1 65 ter 7247 has been admitted as Defence exhibit D193. Thank you.

2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can D193 be displayed on the

4 screen. Thank you. Now, what is this now?

5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It is on the screen.

6 Mr. Tolimir asked for page 23 in English and 25 in Serbian. It's

7 the OTP witness statement of the witness Rupert Smith.

8 Mr. Gajic.

9 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we have the wrong

10 document on the screen. Mr. Tolimir is going to call out the right

11 number now.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, can we have

13 65 ter 7274. Page 23 in Serbian, and 25 in English so that we can

14 analyse what the witness just said.

15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And this is, again, the OTP interview of the

16 current witness.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's right, Mr. President.

18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We need page 23 in Serbian and 25 in English.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

21 Q. So now we see page 23 in Serbian and 25 in English.

22 In line 9, the Prosecutor asked you: "Are those books published

23 by the VRS or are they old books? Old JNA books?"

24 And then in the following line you say:

25 "Old books, I think old books. The name is "Intelligence

Page 12481

1 Security of Combat Activities." That's the title of the book, I think.

2 And it regulates those relations. This is a book published by the

3 Yugoslav army before the war."

4 Then the Prosecutor says: "Does it have a little red star on the

5 front page?"

6 You answered: "I think, yes."

7 And then in line 20, you say: "I think there were very new rules

8 in any of the areas. Mostly the JNA rules were used. The rules that we

9 inherited stayed like that."

10 And then later on you say: "And those rules were used" --

11 actually the Prosecutor says: "Those were the rules that were used

12 during the war."

13 And you say: "My experience ...? It depends on the commanding

14 officer -- but I think nothing significant changed in those rules."

15 End quote of what you said to the Prosecutor during that

16 interrogation.

17 My question is: The rules of the SFRY, were they used in the VRS

18 and does that also mean that these particular regulations about the

19 authority of the land army was also used by the VRS, because 1990 is the

20 year before the war in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Thank you.

21 A. General, sir, what you just quoted relates to the literature and

22 rules on the intelligence security. When I was asked that by the person

23 carrying out that interrogation, I answered that I used the book called:

24 "Intelligence Security of Combat Activities." And I also repeated it

25 here. That's the book that I used. And when I speak about that, I speak

Page 12482

1 about the books from my area of expertise, the books that I knew. And I

2 described that book, "The Intelligence Security of Combat Activities".

3 It has a red star on the front page, and it was published in 1987.

4 Now when you asked me about this particular corps rule, I can

5 tell you that I did not use that. If you asked me, in principle, whether

6 I know which rules were used in the VRS in that period, then my answer is

7 going to be in the affirmative. As far as I know, in my area, in the

8 intelligence and security sector, we used the rules taken over from the

9 former JNA.

10 So there were some new rules and guide-lines and instructions,

11 but in most cases, and as far as I know, in all the sectors and at all

12 the levels, we used the old rules. That's about it.

13 Q. Thank you, Mr. Nikolic.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now can we have P1297. P1297 in

15 e-court. That's the rules of service of the military police of the armed

16 forces of the SFRY.

17 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Mr. Thayer showed it to you. I would like to read only page 6.

19 Thank you. Now we can see it here this is the introduction, where it

20 says -- actually, can we first wait for the version in English and the

21 appropriate page, of course. Thank you.

22 So I quote the first paragraph of the introduction:

23 "The service regulations of the military police of the armed

24 forces of the Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslavia (further

25 referred to as the Regulations) are placed on the provisions of federal

Page 12483

1 laws and other federal regulations, while those regarding the military

2 police in the Territorial Defence are placed on respective laws and other

3 regulations of the republics and ... provinces."

4 My question is: Bearing this in mind, did all the members of the

5 police forces in the territories where this rule was used duty-bound to

6 comply with these regulations, laws, and other legislation on the basis

7 of which this text was written? Or, specifically, you and the military

8 policemen in your brigade, were you duty-bound to work in accordance with

9 these rules about the military police? Thank you.

10 A. Yes. We were duty-bound to comply with this.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have -- can we now take

12 a look at the second paragraph where it says: "These regulations

13 regulate: The bases of command and control of the military police of the

14 Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslavia armed forces ..."

15 Can you tell us, did these regulations regulate the basis of

16 command and control of the military police in the VRS in accordance with

17 the positive laws? And did the courts apply the same rules and the same

18 laws while performing their duties in disciplinary and criminal

19 proceedings? Thank you.

20 A. My answer is going to follow the reverse sequence, different from

21 your question.

22 Whether the courts applied this, I don't know. Whether the

23 brigade used this rule, yes. My brigade used these regulations and acted

24 in accordance with them.

25 Q. Thank you. The lawyer in your brigade whose name you mentioned

Page 12484

1 the last time you spoke about it, Mr. Celanovic, was he duty-bound to

2 warn all the members of the military police to act in accordance with the

3 regulations and laws, based on which these regulations were written?

4 Thank you.

5 A. Yes. Zlatan Celanovic was duty-bound but also the commander of

6 their unit was duty-bound to do that. And also I was duty-bound to warn

7 them about it. And also, in the professional aspect of my work I was

8 supposed to train them in the same spirit.

9 Q. Thank you, Mr. Nikolic.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now take a look at page 7 in

11 e-court. That's chapter 1, general provisions. Thank you. We can see

12 it now. Can we maybe move the text a little bit so that we can see

13 chapter 1, general provisions. Thank you.

14 And can we also find it in English. It's page 8.

15 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

16 Q. So, general provisions. You were shown item 1 and item 2 by the

17 Prosecutor, Mr. Thayer. So I would like you to take a look now at the

18 second paragraph in item 2 which goes as follows. I quote:

19 "Other units of the armed forces may, in accordance with

20 demonstrated need and the decision of the military officer in charge, act

21 together with military police units, in the execution of their tasks

22 within the jurisdiction of the military police, and they need to be

23 prepared to execute such tasks."

24 My question is: Did all the units that you listed yesterday, the

25 units that were in the area of Potocari and the UNPROFOR base there, have

Page 12485

1 the duty to act in accordance with these rules? Thank you.

2 A. I can answer in affirmative with some certainty to the question

3 whether various police forces engaged in Potocari. Police forces from

4 the brigade and other units, whether they were duty-bound to work in

5 accordance with these rules. I can answer in affirmative that all the

6 units were supposed to comply with these rules, but I cannot confirm that

7 other units, units which did not have anything to do with the police

8 work, actually did that.

9 Q. Thank you. That wasn't what I was asking you.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now take a look at chapter

11 9. I think it's page 9.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, chapter 2 on page 9,

13 item number 3.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now move the text so that we

15 can see the right-hand side of the page where it says: "Chapter 2,

16 command and control of the military police."

17 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Here we have item 12 and item 13 which says that:

19 "The commander commands the military police" --

20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, please be patient. You gave the

21 indication, then wait. It takes some time to bring these documents up on

22 the screen. Just wait a moment and then continue.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

24 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Mr. Nikolic we can now see it both in English and Serbian.

Page 12486

1 Item 12 says: "That the officer in charge of the military unit

2 and institution within whose establishment," so on and so forth,

3 "commands and controls the military police."

4 Can you tell us who was that officer in charge, specifically in

5 your brigade?

6 A. In my brigade, it was the brigade commander, Vidoje Blagojevic.

7 Q. Thank you. Let us take a look at item 13, which goes as follows:

8 "With respect to specialty, the officer in charge of the security body of

9 the unit or institution within whose establishment the military police

10 unit is placed or to which it is attached controls the military police."

11 My question is: Who was -- who had the competency to control the

12 military police in the professional or specialty aspect, in your brigade?

13 Thank you.

14 A. In my brigade, when we talk about the professional or specialty

15 control over the military police platoon, I can tell that you I was in

16 charge of that.

17 And what was the second part of your question? I apologise.

18 Q. The second question was who performed the duty of the security

19 organ in your brigade? Thank you.

20 A. I performed the duty of the security organ in my brigade. That

21 is, Momir Nikolic.

22 Q. Thank you. Let us read the third paragraph in item 13, which

23 goes as follows. I quote: "When controlling a military police unit, the

24 officer in charge of the security body from paragraph 1 of this item has

25 the same rights and duties which the officers of arms services of

Page 12487

1 military units and institutions have in controlling the units of arms and

2 services."

3 Please, does this say that you only had the right to control the

4 military police units in the same way that the officers from arms and

5 services controlled the units within the arms and services? Thank you.

6 A. Yes, exactly what it says here.

7 Q. Thank you. Can you tell the Trial Chamber, did you had any

8 command authority over those units of military police? Thank you.

9 A. I heard the interpretation which said whether I commanded the

10 units. But I have to say here that I did not have the authority to

11 command and control over the military police in my brigade. In this

12 case, the military police platoon.

13 Q. Thank you. That was exactly my question. I apologise if it was

14 misinterpreted. I wanted to know whether you had that right, and now you

15 told us that you did not have that right. Thank you.

16 Now, let us take a look at chapter 3. That's page 11 in both

17 English and Serbian.

18 Thank you. We have it here in Serbian. That's paragraph 17,

19 item 17. Can we have it in English as well. Thank you.

20 I will quote only a part from the first paragraph:

21 "In accordance with the law and regulations passed on the basis

22 of the law, the military police performs certain security duties for the

23 needs of the JNA, and in wartime also performs security duties for the

24 needs of Territorial Defence, relating to the following," and so on and

25 so forth.

Page 12488

1 My question is: Within the VRS, and in your brigade, did the

2 military police have to work only in accordance with the laws and the

3 regulations enacted on the basis of those laws? Thank you.

4 A. In my brigade, and that is the Bratunac -- or, rather, the

5 military police, we worked in accordance with these rules enforced for

6 the military police. As far as I remember, we had no other rule-book or

7 any other rules or regulations, nor do I remember that we used anything

8 else, but I suppose that these rules were in line with the laws and

9 regulations adopted during that period.

10 Q. Thank you, Mr. Nikolic.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now please see D203.

12 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

13 Q. For you to be able to see it. Thank you.

14 It's about the rules of service of the security organ in the

15 armed forces of the SFRY, and you wanted to see it.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could we rotate it in

17 Serbian. Now please scroll left. Thank you. Please show page 5 in

18 Serbian and page 6 in English now.

19 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

20 Q. So we can see the basic duties of the security organs as set out

21 in these rules of service.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please scroll left. And in

23 English, please also display page 6. Thank you.

24 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

25 Q. So we can now see item 1 in both English and Serbian. I will

Page 12489

1 quote from item 1 of the chapter -- the heading, "The competence of

2 security organs".

3 I quote: "Security organs, as specialist organs of commands,

4 units, institutions and staffs of the armed forces, carry out duties of

5 state security that are placed within their competence by the law and

6 regulations issued pursuant to the law, for the purposes of detecting or

7 preventing activities aimed at subverting or disrupting the social order

8 established by the Constitution of," and so on.

9 My question, based on this, is: Do these rules for the

10 competence -- for the security organs define the tasks of these

11 specialist organs of commands, define their duties the same way as the

12 duties that we saw a short while ago in the rules for the brigades? In

13 other words, as a subject matter, namely, the tasks of the security

14 organs, as specialist organs of commands, explained in the same way?

15 Thank you.

16 A. General, sir, I have never compared the language in this -- in

17 these rules with those that applied to the corps command and the command

18 of brigades. But to the extent that I have read this, I believe that

19 these tasks are defined in the same manner in both rule-books.

20 Q. Thank you, Mr. Nikolic. Let us go to item 16, which is page 10

21 in English and page 9 in Serbian.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please see these on the

23 screens. Then we'll see chapter 2, "Management of security organs".

24 Could we please enlarge this.

25 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Page 12490

1 Q. Item 16 reads: "The security organ is directly subordinate to

2 the commanding officer of the command, unit, institution, or staff of the

3 armed forces in whose strength it is placed in the establishment, and it

4 is responsible to that officer for its work, while JNA security organs in

5 organisations for NVO are responsible to the competent Assistant Federal

6 Secretary for National Defence."

7 Here is my question: Do the rules of service of the security

8 organs lay down, as we have seen in item 16, that the security organs are

9 directly subordinate to the commands of units and institutions? Thank

10 you. And who was it in your particular case, in your brigade? Thank

11 you.

12 A. As far as I know, General, I, as the security organ, or, rather,

13 chief for intelligence and security in my brigade was directly

14 subordinate to the commanding officer of the brigade. In my particular

15 case, Momir Nikolic, as chief as the intelligence and security organ, was

16 subordinate to the commander of the Bratunac Brigade, Vidoje Blagojevic.

17 Q. Thank you, Mr. Nikolic.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now please see item 22 in

19 both Serbian and English. Let's turn to the appropriate page, which is

20 11 in English and 9 in Serbian.

21 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

22 Q. We can see item 22 in Serbian. It is the last on its page. I

23 quote: "The senior officer of a command, unit, institution, or staff of

24 the armed forces supervises the work of subordinate security organs

25 according to the general regulations unless otherwise determined by these

Page 12491

1 rules for the supervision of certain work by the security organ."

2 Thank you. Here's my question: Under whose authority in --

3 THE INTERPRETER: Could the accused please repeat his question.

4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, you were asked by the interpreters

5 to repeat your question. They didn't catch it.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

7 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Mr. Nikolic, in item 22, is the supervision of security organs

9 within the remit of the senior officer of a command, unit, institution,

10 or staff; and, in your particular case, who was that senior officer?

11 Thank you.

12 A. As far as I see, General, this item clearly stipulates that the

13 supervision is in the remit of the senior officer which in my particular

14 case was the brigade commander. So I can answer affirmatively that, in

15 my case, the brigade commander had the authority to supervise the work of

16 the security organ. In other words, me.

17 Q. Thank you, Mr. Nikolic.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let's turn to the following page in

19 Serbian, because I'm interested in item 23. The page in English remains

20 the same. Please blow it up.

21 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

22 Q. I'm about to quote from item 23. "An officer of a security organ

23 of a command, unit, institution, or staff of the armed forces provides

24 specialist management for the military police unit. He recommends the

25 use of the military police unit to the senior officer of the command,

Page 12492

1 unit, institution or staff, and he is responsible to him for the state

2 and activity of the unit."

3 Here is my question: Does the rule of service for the security

4 organs in the VRS under which you worked lay down that you supervise

5 military police units of only professionally and that you're responsible

6 to the commander only for the professional aspect of its activity? Thank

7 you.

8 A. Yes. I've already answered this question earlier, but now I can

9 confirm that the security organ is duty-bound and has authority to

10 control military police units professionally.

11 Q. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Nikolic. Please take a look at

12 paragraph 2 of item 23, which reads:

13 "In managing the military police unit, the security organ officer

14 under paragraph 1 of this item has the same rights and duties as officers

15 of arms and services of commands, units, institutions, and staffs of the

16 armed forces in managing units of the arms and services of those

17 commands, units, institutions or staffs."

18 Here's my question: Did you, as the security organ in your

19 brigade, have the authority to manage military police units

20 professionally the same way as the chiefs of other arms and services had

21 the authority to manage their respective arms or services? Thank you.

22 A. Yes. I was duty-bound to manage the military police platoon of

23 the Bratunac Brigade professionally.

24 Q. Thank you. Did this relationship, which is here defined as being

25 the same that prevails in the arms and services, and we have also seen

Page 12493

1 that it is so defined in the rules for the brigade commands.

2 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not understand the

3 question. The answer was yes.

4 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Thank you, Mr. Nikolic. Since this rule also applies to security

6 organs in the lowest ranking units of, as well as security organs in

7 brigades, corps and the Main Staff I'm going to read out to you item 57

8 and ask you to answer my question with regard to that.

9 It's on page 23 of these rules of service of the security organs

10 in the armed forces which -- the page reference is page 23 for both

11 English and Serbian. Actually, in Serbian, it's 16.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please see page 23 in

13 English and page 16 in Serbian. Thank you.

14 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Thank you. Now we can see it in both languages. I'm going to

16 quote from item 57 of the rules of service of the security organs in the

17 armed forces.

18 "The security administration of the SSNO )hereinafter security

19 administration) performs duties as prescribed by these rules and other

20 regulations.

21 "The security administration provides specialist management for

22 security organs in JNA commands, units and institutions according to the

23 provisions of these rules and organises and directs their work of

24 importance for security."

25 Here's my question: The security administration at the level of

Page 12494

1 the Main Staff, in accordance with these rules which were in force there

2 was it authorised only to be a professional organ in its relationship

3 with the lower-ranking security organs? Thank you.

4 A. I have no comment. It is regulated by item 57, and I suppose

5 that they did have such authority and were supposed to act in that

6 manner.

7 Q. Thank you, Mr. Nikolic. Let us now take a look at item 58 in

8 both languages.

9 I quote: "The security administration provides ... security

10 direction and coordination for the work of security organs of the

11 Territorial Defence, relating to counter-intelligence matters and the

12 counter-intelligence protection of members of the armed forces in

13 Territorial Defence Staffs ..."

14 We won't be needing the rest of this.

15 Here's my question: The security administration, was it

16 authorised only to professionally direct and coordinate subordinated

17 units? Thank you.

18 A. According to what you have just read out from this item, it

19 follows that this is, indeed, the case.

20 Q. Thank you, Mr. Nikolic.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please see item 87 in

22 Serbian in English. In Serbian, it's on page 22; and in English, it's on

23 page 31. 87. Item 87. Thank you.

24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, I would like to ask you something.

25 You know, it's -- you're entitled to put these questions to the

Page 12495

1 witness. On the other hand, you are reading many paragraphs of these

2 regulations and rules. They are already all in evidence. The Chamber is

3 in the position to review them. You can use them with every witness you

4 want. Most of the answers of the witness to these parts of the

5 regulations put to him were: It is what -- what you have read to me. You

6 should consider to shorten this way of putting regulations to the

7 witness.

8 Perhaps there are other matters you could deal with this witness.

9 Just a question if this is a good use of your court time.

10 Please go ahead.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. This

12 witness was charged with doing many things for which he didn't have

13 authority. I will therefore show what he was authorised to do. But, all

14 right, I will stop quoting. I did that for the sake of the witness and

15 not for my sake, and I did it for the sake of the proceedings. Thank

16 you.

17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The witness is not tried in this case. He is

18 just a witness.

19 Please carry on.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I know

21 that I am on trial here. However, the witness was a member of the

22 security organs of the VRS, and now I want to ask him about bullet point

23 87, which I'm quoting: "Security organs familiarize the competent

24 military officer with the counter-intelligence situation and, on the

25 basis of the conclusions of the evaluation on the item 86, paragraph 1 of

Page 12496

1 these rules, recommend counter-intelligence security ..."

2 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

3 Q. My question to you, Mr. Nikolic, is this: Did you carry out

4 counter-intelligence security assessment in the area of responsibility of

5 your brigade? If you did, did you inform your commander about your

6 findings; and did you recommend measures to be undertaken in keeping with

7 your authorities and the information that you had gathered? Thank you.

8 A. Daily and regularly, I carried out my evaluation of threats. I'm

9 not going to be using the terms written in here, and I mean

10 counter-intelligence situation, counter-intelligence security and so on

11 and so forth. What I'm saying is that I monitored the situation on the

12 opposite side. I monitored the activities of the enemy. I assessed the

13 threats to my units, my positions, the territory under control of my

14 unit, and I did that on a daily basis, or whenever I learned something

15 new I would add that to the overall evaluation that I already arrived at.

16 I briefed my commander regularly about any threats coming from

17 the enemy side, and I also proposed measures that should be undertaken in

18 the area of responsibility of the brigade in order to prevent any

19 negative consequences for my unit.

20 Q. Thank you, Mr. Nikolic.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And now could the Court please

22 produce D148. We will no longer quote from any rules or regulations

23 because this is what we have been asked by the Trial Chamber.

24 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

25 Q. I would like to refer you to something that you said on page 35

Page 12497

1 about the prisoners of war. Why did you assume the responsibility for

2 prisoners of war, when it says in bullet point 295 whose responsibility

3 that was?

4 Could you please look at bullet point 295 which deals with the

5 responsibility for prisoners of war? Can you answer my question, or

6 maybe you want me to repeat the question. Can we please look at 295 --

7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Tolimir,

8 you have given the reference, the number of the document. Please give us

9 the reference to the page number in English and in B/C/S. And then wait

10 until we see it on the screen. And then the -- you may put a question to

11 the witness.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. The page

13 number in English is 79; and in Serbian, it is 122. It is bullet point

14 295 of the rules of the brigades. And that is also the unit level at

15 which this witness was.

16 And I quote: "Logistics support for prisoners of war includes

17 the provision of necessary supplies and health care. Provision of

18 supplies to the prisoners in prisoner stations and other locations while

19 they are under the jurisdiction of the armed forces is organised by

20 logistics and other organs in units which have captured them. The escort

21 for prisoners of war in camps is organised and implemented by TO staffs

22 in collaboration with social and political associations ..."

23 In accordance with the rules, are prisoners under the authority

24 of logistics organs? And when it comes to security organs, would it be

25 correct that they only provide physical security of the facilities where

Page 12498

1 they are accommodated? Thank you.

2 A. General, sir, as you can see, and as I can see, bullet point 295

3 refers to the logistics support for war -- prisoners of war. Any comment

4 on my part is unnecessary.

5 In the -- logistics support for prisoners of war is within the

6 purview of logistics sector. However, anything else, as far as I know,

7 is within the authority of the security organs and police forces. I mean

8 their escort, the imprisonment, security. And if I remember it well,

9 every order defines that task as the tasks of the security and

10 intelligence organ.

11 Q. Does every order also define what is regulated in the rules, that

12 they are within the authority of the logistics organs; whereas, the

13 security organs define their location, and then -- that they then provide

14 security for the location that they had proposed to the commander. They

15 also carry out other tasks during the -- interrogation, for example.

16 A. General, sir, I accept that you are much more familiar with than

17 I am. You're a professional. I am sure you are better versed in all

18 this. I'm just showing you what common practice was and what I know.

19 And that is that besides water and food supply and supply of prisoners of

20 all the other material resources, the logistics organs in my brigade were

21 never in charge of prisoners of war. I don't know whether this is

22 correct or not. In any case, that was common practice.

23 Q. Thank you. Did you as a security organ have enough power to

24 realize all duties concerning prisoners of war without any other

25 assistance from the brigade? When all the other soldiers were deployed

Page 12499

1 pursuant to your commander's orders, did you still have enough power to

2 provide enough security for the prisoners of war and to carry out all the

3 other tasks with this regard? Thank you.

4 A. Of course not, especially for such a major operation, during

5 which so many prisoners of war were taken. I could not do anything on my

6 own, not only those things which concerned prisoners of war, but also

7 nothing else.

8 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Nikolic.

9 Let us now look, page 40 in Serbian; and page 42 in English.

10 I'm referring to your statement bearing the 65 ter number 7245.

11 [Defence counsel confer]

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise. The number is 7274.

13 Thank you, Aleksander. I was mistaken when I quoted the first

14 number. The actual number is 7274.

15 Thank you.

16 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

17 Q. And now we see it, and let's look from line 4 through line 9.

18 Let's see what you say. And you say:

19 "No, that is not so. This is not what I said. I said that the

20 military police is given tasks and it is engaged pursuant to the orders

21 of the brigade commander. The Bratunac Brigade did not have military

22 police platoons. It never had any military police platoons. It only had

23 one platoon. And that was just one platoon with 30 men. 31, or 32. Or

24 30 people exactly. When the commander decides the use of the police, if

25 he needs expertise, assistance from the chief of security, then he asks

Page 12500

1 for the expert advice as to how things are going to be organised."

2 My question to you is this: So even if the commander had

3 transferred the authority over the prisoners of war onto the military

4 police, did you as a security organ, have any other means at your

5 disposal to still be in charge of those prisoners of war? As a

6 professional organ, as a specialist organ, were you still in charge of

7 those tasks? Thank you.

8 A. If the commander issued an order and regulated my tasks in

9 relation to the prisoners of war, then I will do what the commander

10 defined in his order. If this is, indeed, what you asked me.

11 Q. Thank you. I asked you this. If the commander commands the

12 military police unit, and if he engaged them in providing security for

13 the prisoners of war in Bratunac, whose responsibility is it then? Is it

14 the responsibility of military police; or you, Momir Nikolic, as the

15 specialised professional organ? Thank you.

16 A. In that case, it is the responsibility of the brigade commander.

17 He is responsible for every decision with regard to the use of the

18 military police which includes this case as well.

19 Q. Can you please answer me this: When you provided the statement

20 or, rather, if you want to answer the question, okay. If not, you can

21 say whatever.

22 Why did you accept responsibility for everything that happened to

23 the prisoners of war in Bratunac, in view of the fact that you were just

24 an individual who was tasked with professional and specialised tasks, and

25 you, as an individual, did not have either the physical strength or the

Page 12501

1 logistics support to provide anything for those prisoners. You couldn't

2 guard them yourself, you couldn't supply them with food, water, or

3 anything else.

4 So why did you take all responsibility when providing your

5 statement to the OTP?

6 A. I assumed the part of the responsibility that I thought I had.

7 Because the military police did participate in those tasks, in the tasks

8 that I have already described.

9 As far as the police participation is concerned I assumed the

10 responsibility to the extent to which the military police participated.

11 I also spoke about those situations which involved the military police

12 platoon. Besides the military police platoon, I still believe that I, as

13 the chief of security or rather the chief of security and intelligence

14 sector, I bear part of the responsibility for everything that happened in

15 the area of responsibility of my unit. I'm -- thought that in the past,

16 and I still think that I as a reserve captain could not have a higher

17 level of responsibility than my commander or any of the commanders who

18 were engaged there. However, with regard to what happened in Bratunac

19 and everything else that happened there, I believe that we all take part

20 of the responsibility and that is what I tried to explain in my statement

21 and in my further statement. I wanted to formulate everything that

22 exaggerated my role and things that I did in that situation.

23 Q. Thank you, Mr. Nikolic. It is your right to answer any way you

24 want. It is your right to take responsibility or part of the

25 responsibility for your brigade or your unit. I only asked you why you

Page 12502

1 did that, since we have just established that was not part of your

2 responsibility. I will not dwell upon that any longer.

3 I would like us to move on to page 54 in the English version of

4 your statement. In Serbian, it is page 49.

5 As soon as we have those pages on the screen, I'm going to allow

6 you to read that part, and then based on that, I'm going to have some

7 questions for you.

8 Let's look at lines 25 and 26, where you say, in line 25:

9 "The military police department, pursuant to the commander of the

10 brigade's order, they were ordered to guard the Dutch battalion soldiers

11 who had surrendered, approximately 30 of them. They were ordered to

12 guard them, as well as their assets."

13 Thank you. And then you explain where other military policemen

14 were deployed, and it's up to the commander to do that. But let me ask

15 you: Why did you guard those 30 members of the Dutch battalion of

16 UNPROFOR that had surrendered? And this is what you stated in here.

17 Thank you.

18 A. We provided security for the Dutch battalion soldiers which you

19 can also see in our -- in this statement. Because that's the order we

20 had received from the brigade commander. Initially, they were

21 accommodated in Hotel Fontana and that hotel is in the centre of city and

22 it is not protected in any other way. That's why we provided security

23 for them. And I believe that later on they were moved to another

24 building and that we continued providing security from -- for them even

25 there.

Page 12503

1 Q. Thank you. Tell us then why did they surrender to the VRS?

2 Because here you say that you secured those 30 soldiers who had

3 surrendered.

4 A. The DutchBat soldiers, as far as I know, surrendered during the

5 ongoing operation. By that, I mean the attack on Srebrenica. I spoke to

6 some of the soldiers and officers who had surrendered. They said that

7 they were in a desperate situation. At least those to whom I spoke said

8 that they were caught in a cross-fire between two armies and that they

9 felt threatened where they were, at their check-points, where they used

10 to be.

11 Q. Thank you. We heard other witnesses who testified about their

12 surrender. Could you please tell the Trial Chamber, did the VRS force

13 them to surrender; or did they decide to surrender to the VRS of their

14 own free will? Thank you.

15 A. As far as I know, most of those DutchBat soldiers crossed over to

16 the Serbian side voluntarily. However, I do have information that on one

17 check-point - I think it was the check-point at Biljak - that had been

18 attacked, taken over by force, and then the soldiers who were found there

19 were transported away. However, I did not contact directly with those

20 soldiers. The soldiers that I spoke with told me that they crossed over

21 to the Serbian side voluntarily because of their own safety.

22 Q. Thank you. So can we then say that those 30 soldiers that you

23 mention in your statement crossed to the side of the VRS voluntarily.

24 And how were they treated? Thank you.

25 A. I already answered that. Most of them did. And I think that

Page 12504

1 they were treated fairly. They were accommodated and given food and

2 cigarettes and everything else that was indispensable.

3 Q. Thank you. Do you know that UNPROFOR considered the treatment of

4 the VRS vis-a-vis the DutchBat soldiers as one of the reasons to begin

5 the air-strikes on Republika Srpska? Thank you.

6 A. I don't know that that is one of the reasons because of which

7 air-strikes were carried out against Serbian forces.

8 Q. Thank you. Did the Drina Corps command ever request from you a

9 report about those soldiers who had crossed over to the territory of

10 Republika Srpska? I mean the territory controlled by the VRS, the

11 territory of Republika Srpska, from the protected zone of Srebrenica.

12 Thank you.

13 A. I don't remember right now whether the corps command requested me

14 to report on that. But I know that I considered that my regular duty, to

15 report on the DutchBat soldiers. And I did report to the corps command

16 about that.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have D183.

19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir. Mr. Tolimir, before you move to

20 another document, I think it's time for the second break, and you should

21 use the next document after the break.

22 We will resume at 1.00.

23 --- Recess taken at 12.31 p.m.

24 --- On resuming at 1.04 p.m.

25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, please continue your examination.

Page 12505

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

2 Can we have D183. Thank you. All right, now we have D183. Can

3 we zoom in so the witness could read it.

4 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

5 Q. So this is a report from your brigade dated the 9th of July.

6 And in it, you report to the Main Staff and your command.

7 I quote: "We hereby inform you that the intervention unit of the

8 Dutch battalion for the protection of the refugee settlement of Slapovici

9 has fled to Serbian territory. This unit was received at the

10 1st Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade command at around 1930 hours. They

11 were interviewed and accommodated at the Fontana hotel."

12 Then you list the soldiers, and say: "The unit was received

13 without their personal weapons. The unit had come in a personnel carrier

14 with weapons mounted onto it. Signature, Chief of the OB organ,

15 Captain Momir Nikolic."

16 My question is: Is this the report that you sent from your

17 brigade to the Drina Corps command and the Main Staff about this

18 activity? Thank you.

19 A. Yes, that's the report I sent.

20 Q. Thank you. Did you receive any instructions in the brigade

21 command about how to behave with the UNPROFOR personnel and what your

22 attitude towards them was supposed to be? Thank you.

23 A. If you are referring to this date, the 9th of July, I don't

24 remember receiving any instructions on that day. But I personally knew

25 very well how to treat the members of the international forces in

Page 12506

1 Srebrenica.

2 Q. Thank you. Since you don't remember, let us take a look at D184.

3 After we see that document, I'm going ask you a question based on both

4 documents.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this

6 document into evidence. I apologise, it is already admitted.

7 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

8 Q. This is a document dated the 9th of July which goes as follows:

9 "We hereby inform you that one UNPROFOR crew composed of eight soldiers

10 and one personnel carrier crossed over to territory under our control.

11 These UNPROFOR members had been stationed at the newly formed check-point

12 in Zeleni Jadar. They crossed over to the Serbian territory in the same

13 sector. Their observation post is called S, Sierra, and was manned by

14 the following soldiers ... " And then you list them.

15 My question is -- could we actually first take a look at the

16 signature block. We can see Momir Nikolic in the signature block.

17 My question is: Did you draft this document and send it to your

18 superior command -- to the superior command of your brigade and to the

19 Main Staff? Thank you.

20 A. General, sir, yes. Everything that you asked me about is

21 contained within this document.

22 Q. Thank you. Is this your document? Thank you.

23 A. I don't see the masthead. Could we maybe move the document,

24 lower it, so that I can see the masthead.

25 Yes, yes. It says the 1st Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade

Page 12507

1 command. It also carries my number and my date [as interpreted].

2 Q. Thank you. I asked you this because the Prosecution and the

3 Defence agree that this document should be used when you come to testify

4 and that you should confirm its authenticity. So that's why I asked you,

5 is this an authentic document. Thank you.

6 A. It would be good if we had this document in its original,

7 handwritten original, written by my hand. But everything points that

8 this is the document that I drafted.

9 Q. Thank you. Maybe you could ask the Prosecution whether they had

10 the original handwritten version, and maybe they could supply it to you,

11 if necessary.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now I would like to look at a

13 document dated the 9th of July, D41. Thank you.

14 Thank you. Can we zoom in so that the witness can see that this

15 is document from the Main Staff of the VRS sent on the 9th of July.

16 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

17 Q. And can you please take a look at the last paragraph where it

18 says:

19 "In accordance with the order of the President of

20 Republika Srpska, you must issue an order to all combat units

21 participating in combat operations around Srebrenica to offer maximum

22 protection and safety to all UNPROFOR members and the civilian Muslim

23 population. You must order subordinate units to refrain from destroying

24 civilian targets unless forced to do so because of strong enemy

25 resistance. Ban the torching of residential buildings and treat the

Page 12508

1 civilian population and war prisoners in accordance with the

2 Geneva Conventions of the 12th of August, 1949."

3 Thank you.

4 My question is: Did you, as the intelligence and security organ

5 of your brigade, receive this document from the corps command? And did

6 you know its contents? Thank you.

7 A. If you're asking me, if I understood you correctly, you're asking

8 me now about this specific document in front of me.

9 Q. Yes, Mr. Nikolic. Were the members of your brigade acquainted

10 with the position of the president of the republic about the way that

11 UNPROFOR and the civilian population should be treated? Thank you.

12 A. Right now, I really can't remember whether this order was

13 presented to the members of my brigade at some official meeting. I don't

14 remember.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have D41 -- no, I

17 apologise. This is D41. Can we have D69. D69. Thank you.

18 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Thank you. Now we can see the document dated the 8th of

20 July which relates to the way that the VRS is supposed to UNPROFOR.

21 I quote -- Milenko Zivanovic wrote. I quote: "The UNPROFOR

22 command in Sarajevo has filed a protest note with the Main Staff of the

23 VRS over operations against UNPROFOR observation point UNPROFOR map near

24 Zeleni Jadar. They emphasised that their point was captured by artillery

25 and tank action. The Main Staff of the VRS answered that the Drina Corps

Page 12509

1 command had informed it that the Muslims were using six armoured

2 personnel carriers painted white and bearing UNPROFOR markings ... and

3 that the Muslims had started offensive operations from Srebrenica in

4 order to join up the enclaves of Srebrenica and Zepa.

5 "The Main Staff demanded that UNPROFOR warn the Muslim forces to

6 withdraw to within the borders of the demilitarised zones."

7 And then the penultimate paragraph:

8 "The Main Staff has ordered you not to attack UNPROFOR, but to

9 prevent any surprises and stop the Muslims in their intention to join up

10 Srebrenica and Zepa.

11 "Good luck in war and best regards from General Tolimir.

12 "Commander, Major-General Milenko Zivanovic."

13 My question is: Did General Zivanovic write this based on the

14 telegram and information received in the Main Staff and did he send this

15 to the subordinate command, that is, the brigade command? Thank you.

16 A. All these things you're asking me, I can't answer you. I don't

17 know from whom General Zivanovic received his information. I cannot

18 comment on that. Now whether it arrived my unit, I can just look at what

19 it says here on the list of addressees, and it says IKM of Drina Corps,

20 but, here in the list of addressees, I don't see that it had been sent to

21 my brigade.

22 Q. Thank you, Mr. Nikolic. Was the Main Staff supposed to deliver

23 this straight to your brigade and to you personally, or was he supposed

24 to do that through the Drina Corps, and then the Drina Corps was supposed

25 to forward it to the brigades that took part in the action; and can that

Page 12510

1 be deduced from this document? Thank you.

2 A. General, sir, yes, this is a more specific question. This

3 document shows that the Drina Corps command received this document at its

4 forward command post at Pribicevac. It was delivered personally to the

5 Chief of Staff, Major-General Radislav Krstic. He commanded at the time,

6 and he was in the zone of responsibility of, the 1st Bratunac Light

7 Infantry Brigade.

8 Q. Thank you, Mr. Nikolic. Do you see here where it says "to",

9 "also to Major-General Zdravko Tolimir for information."

10 My question is: Is General Zivanovic informing me that that he

11 forwarded the information that I received from UNPROFOR in Sarajevo; and

12 did he, in the last paragraph, even write, "Good luck in war and best

13 regards from General Tolimir."

14 Thank you.

15 A. Yes, we can see it in the document.

16 Q. Thank you. Please, could you tell us, do you know that UNPROFOR,

17 in Sarajevo, requested that either Nicolai, deputising for Rupert Smith

18 or Gobillard should arrive at Srebrenica? And do you know that

19 General Mladic approved their arrival on the 11th or on the 12th, and

20 were you informed about that? Thank you.

21 A. I know nothing about the previous situations that you mentioned.

22 I don't know -- I had no information about anything at that level. But I

23 did know that, on the 11th and 12th, somebody was supposed to come from

24 the main command to Bratunac.

25 Q. Thank you. Were you told that the UNPROFOR commander

Page 12511

1 personally - in this case, General Nicolai as the one who was deputising

2 for the commander in Sarajevo - wanted to see the situation because being

3 a Dutchman, he didn't believe that the Dutch soldiers had surrendered but

4 he believed that we had taken them prisoner. Thank you.

5 A. I don't believe -- correction, I don't remember that precisely.

6 But I believe that there was doubt expressed with regard to the status of

7 the soldiers in the Bratunac territory. But I don't remember the

8 specifics.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let us take a look at document D64.

11 Thank you.

12 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

13 Q. We see a document of the Drina Corps command and its intelligence

14 department, drafted on 12 July 1995, and sent to the intelligence

15 department and the commands of the corps mentioned here, as well as the

16 forward command post, personally to the commander of the staff,

17 General Krstic, as well as to the Bratunac forward command post, to

18 Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic.

19 In paragraph 2, we read:

20 "On 12 July of this year, at 1945 hours, a radio network of

21 elements of the 28th Muslim Division was activated; during the morning,

22 at around 0500 hours, these elements came across a minefield in the

23 sector of Ravni Buljin at the juncture between the Milic and Bratunac

24 Brigades."

25 And it goes on to say in the following paragraphs where those

Page 12512

1 making up that radio network are situated, are located.

2 And then we see in the fourth paragraph:

3 "Those who communicated over the radio network were extremely

4 frightened and yet undecided about the direction of breaking through the

5 line of defence of the Zvornik Brigade and the 1st Bratunac Infantry

6 Brigade. In addition, it is not clear whether all elements of these

7 units have been pulled out from the area of the former Muslim enclave of

8 Srebrenica since they were discovered in the early morning hours after

9 they had activated our minefield."

10 In the last two lines of this document - could we please scroll

11 down; I'm referring to the page in Serbian - it says:

12 "The Muslims want to present Srebrenica as a demilitarized zone

13 in which there was only civilian population and that is why they ordered

14 all armed and able-bodied persons to illegally pull out through the

15 territory of the RS to the territory controlled by the Muslims so that

16 they could accuse the VRS of an unprovoked attack on civilians in a safe

17 haven."

18 Before the signature block but below the stamp, we see -- or

19 actually let us read the following paragraph:

20 "Although it is very important to arrest as many members of the

21 shattered Muslim units as possible, or liquidate them if they resist, it

22 is equally important to note down the names of all men fit for military

23 service who are being evacuated from the UNPROFOR base in Potocari.

24 "The intelligence and security organs will brief the MUP organs

25 in their respective areas of responsibility on information received.

Page 12513

1 They will draw up joint plans from breaking up and liquidating the enemy

2 formations trying to escape from Srebrenica enclave towards Tuzla and

3 Kladanj.

4 "Chief, Major-General Zdravko Tolimir."

5 Here's my question: Did you know that the

6 security administration had this information about the intentions of the

7 Muslims, namely, to pull out from Srebrenica and to make it seem as if

8 the civilian population had been attacked; and was this document drafted

9 on the 12th of July; and was it received in your brigade? Thank you.

10 A. What you, in the Main Staff, knew and what kind of information

11 you had, and the same applies to the Drina Corps, I really don't know. I

12 cannot comment on that.

13 I cannot state with full certainty, but I think I have not seen

14 this document before, although I see that my brigade is one of the

15 intended recipients. But I cannot state with any certainty that it

16 arrived or did not arrive. But I don't really remember all its contents.

17 Q. Thank you. But, based on the contents, would -- is it necessary

18 for Popovic and Krstic to brief your brigade commander, since this was

19 addressed to the security and intelligence organ?

20 A. All I have been able to infer from this document during this

21 short time shows that this document should have arrived at the

22 Bratunac Brigade from the Drina Corps, because we see for whom it was

23 intended.

24 Q. Thank you. Did you get any information about the Muslims'

25 intentions to pull out from the enclave, including soldiers and

Page 12514

1 able-bodied men; whereas, women and children were to be transported to

2 Kladanj?

3 A. At this moment, I cannot confirm that this is the exact

4 information we received then. But I can say that our expectations were

5 also that the Armed Forces of Bosnia-Herzegovina or, rather, the members

6 of the 28th Division at Srebrenica would leave the territory without

7 taking the civilian population with them.

8 Q. Thank you. Does that mean that the brigade did have information

9 that able-bodied Muslim men wanted to break through to the territory

10 controlled by the BH army; whereas, the women and children were to be

11 separately taken to destinations in the territory of the Federation,

12 assisted by UNPROFOR? Thank you.

13 A. Well, we can put it that way too.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let us see the Prosecutor's

16 document 65 ter number 5908. Thank you.

17 Thank you. The document you want is 65 ter 5908 from e-court.

18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The Registry can't find a document under this

19 number.

20 Mr. Thayer.

21 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, again, I know these things happen.

22 If there's another list, an amended list, we'd appreciate it. We've got

23 about four or five documents now that haven't been on the most recent

24 list that we received.

25 So we would appreciate it if there is an amended list. It just

Page 12515

1 helps us with our work.

2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Indeed. I find myself in the same situation. We

3 received during this session an updated list. But at least six documents

4 are not listed which were used with the witness during today's hearing.

5 And I would like to indicate the numbers: D41, D64, D148, D183,

6 D184, and 65 ter 7274. I don't find these documents on the list of

7 documents to be used with this witness. And please check again the

8 number of the last document you are asking for.

9 Mr. Gajic.

10 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I apologise, I will

11 check the matter so that, for the following session, everybody will be

12 provided with a complete list of documents.

13 There seems to have been some minor technical problems. At any

14 rate, I will check.

15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And you are in the -- are you in the fortunate

16 situation that you have several days to update the list. Because the

17 next session will be on Monday.

18 Please check the number you are asking for now.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Then we will not use

20 this document until it is uploaded to e-court. But as I have referred to

21 it, I want to tell Mr. Nikolic that this is a simple report drafted by

22 him on the 9th of July. It is only five sentences long, about which I

23 wanted to ask him, but then can I do that later. If necessary, we can

24 put it on the ELMO, or use it once it is uploaded to e-court. Thank you.

25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It's up to you decide if you want to deal with

Page 12516

1 this document now. Then we can put it on the ELMO. If you want to

2 postpone it and deal with that later, it's possible.

3 The court usher will assist you with the document and put it on

4 the ELMO.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Since

6 we're speaking about the 9th of July, and this is the topic we're dealing

7 with, it's better to look at it now so as not to go back to it later.

8 Thank you.

9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: There seems to be a technical problem with the

10 ELMO at the moment. I hope it can be resolved.

11 Now we have it.

12 Mr. Tolimir.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

14 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

15 Q. We see a document here which was sent from Bratunac on the 9th of

16 July. It was sent by the command of the Bratunac Brigade from the chief

17 of the security and intelligence organ.

18 I quote: "We inform you that the command of the DutchBat

19 requests a meeting with a representative of the Serb side. The request

20 was transferred to the Zuti Most check-point. The liaison officer of

21 DutchBat did not relate the contents of the matter they wished to discuss

22 with the Serb side."

23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer.

24 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, I just noticed that this document has

25 been used by the Defence as a 1D number and that may be in e-court. And

Page 12517

1 I believe there is a translation, so I think we can get it up on e-court

2 and look at the English as well. And I believe it is 1D00727.

3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Registry will try to call it up on the screen.

4 We have this document in the list of the Defence, but there's a

5 note that the translation is still pending.

6 MR. THAYER: Yes, I thought there was one available,

7 Mr. President, but apparently it's not -- it's not ready.

8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.

9 Mr. Gajic.

10 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, only briefly, if I

11 may, in order to resolve the problem.

12 Mr. Tolimir read out the 65 ter number of the Prosecution. For

13 some reason, it is not in e-court but we will see to it that a

14 translation becomes available as soon as possible. But I hope that we

15 can still use it now.

16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Indeed, it is possible to use it. It is in

17 e-court with number 1D727.

18 Mr. Tolimir, go ahead, please.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Since this has not been translated, can you tell us if this is an

22 original document? It has been taken off the ELMO now.

23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It is on the screen because it is in e-court.

24 Mr. Thayer.

25 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, in the meantime, we have been able to

Page 12518

1 upload this document with a translation under 65 ter 5908. So it is -- I

2 think it's now available under the Prosecution 65 ter number with a

3 translation.

4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Okay. It is -- the system is improving from

5 minute to minute. Great.

6 Mr. Tolimir, now you can use the document.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

8 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Mr. Nikolic, tell us, please, whether you wrote and signed this

10 document and whether you sent it to the superior commands and

11 corresponding security organs. Can you also explain its contents and

12 tell us why it was that the DutchBat command requested a meeting with

13 you? Thank you.

14 A. Your Honour, I don't see it on the screen in front of me. I

15 don't know how it get it on the screen.

16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The court usher will assist you.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] General, sir, everything is quite

18 obvious here. This document was drafted in my command. It bears my

19 number and my signature.

20 As for the contents, you can see it for yourself. You can see

21 what I wrote. I don't know the reasons. I don't know why they requested

22 the meeting.

23 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us whether the meeting was held; and, if

25 it wasn't, why not? We are talking about the 9th of July here.

Page 12519

1 A. I don't know. I have no information to the fact -- to the effect

2 that this meeting took place. If it had, I'm sure that I would have

3 drafted a report about it. I don't know if the meeting took place. I

4 really don't know.

5 Q. Thank you. Did you know who was the deputy of Mr. Karremans and

6 which function he performed and was his name? Did he ever request to

7 meet you?

8 A. Well, the person who was introduced to me and that I consider

9 Karremans' deputy, I think it was Major Boering. I don't know whether I

10 am pronouncing it correctly. He's the officer that used to meet me on a

11 number of occasions. I don't know the exact dates.

12 Q. Thank you. In that case, tell us, do you know that the members

13 of the DutchBat in Srebrenica received so-called green alert, which meant

14 that they were supposed to open fire on the members of the VRS?

15 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Green order.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] General, sir, could be more precise

17 about the time-period?

18 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Thank you, Mr. Nikolic. Could you tell the Trial Chamber

20 whether, on the 9th, 10th, and the 11th, the so-called green order was

21 issued to the DutchBat members to engage in combat activities against the

22 VRS? Thank you.

23 A. I'm not aware of such an order. I have never heard something

24 like that before. This is the first time that I hear it now, from you.

25 Q. Thank you. Did the soldiers who defected to the territory of the

Page 12520

1 Republika Srpska tell you that they were requested to act against the

2 VRS, that the Muslims requested that, and that their command issued such

3 orders? Thank you.

4 A. What I learned in a conversation with those soldiers, I think

5 that I only had one conversation with them, with one group, I learned

6 that the representatives of the Muslim side insisted that the UNPROFOR

7 forces should, together with them, resist the attack of the Serb forces.

8 I also have the information that the members of the Dutch battalion were

9 threatened with weapons. They were told that they had to take part in

10 that. So that's what I learned from them. Nothing more than that.

11 I don't know what assignments they received from their own

12 command because, in those days, I didn't meet up with anybody, and I did

13 not attend any meeting with the representatives of the DutchBat. My only

14 contact was with those members of the DutchBat who defected to Serbian

15 side.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in order to avoid me

18 the beginning of the next topic, because I would have to consult some

19 other documents, I propose that we do that the following day of the

20 trial. Thank you.

21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you, Mr. Tolimir. You have used this

22 document we have on the screen now. Are you tendering it?

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you, Mr. President. We

24 saved this document for this witness, so I would like to tender it now.

25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.

Page 12521

1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, 65 ter document 5908 shall be

2 assigned Exhibit number D204. Thank you.

3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.

4 Sir, we have to adjourn for the day and for the week. I -- I'm

5 convinced that you will appreciate to have a rest now after four days of

6 testimony. We adjourn and resume on Monday in the afternoon, 2.15 in

7 this courtroom.

8 And the Chamber would appreciate to receive a complete updated

9 list of documents. That would be helpful.

10 We adjourn.

11 [The witness stands down]

12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.48 p.m.,

13 to be reconvened on Monday, the 11th of April,

14 2011, at 2.15 p.m.