110525ED

Page 14585

1 Q. Good afternoon to you, Mr. Janc.

2 A. Good afternoon.

3 Q. I wanted to show you some video footage that the Prosecution has

4 tendered in this case because I'd like you to provide the Trial Chamber,

5 if you could, with some information relevant to the question of the

6 authenticity of this video footage.

7 The first video I'd like to show you is from 19 July, which

8 concerns the Jela Restaurant, and I'd like to show it to you first, and

9 then you can perhaps give us a little bit of information concerning its

10 provenance. It's P740, and I think we can start at just about the

11 beginning of the footage at 00, and we'll play it through 2 minutes,

12 44 seconds or so. So let's take a look at that.

13 [Video-clip played]

14 MR. VANDERPUYE: Just stop the footage right now at 1:18.6.

15 Q. Can you tell us who this individual is with the moustache?

16 A. Yes. This individual is Mr. Indjic from the VRS. I forgot his

17 first name. I don't remember.

18 Q. Could it be Boban Indjic? If you don't remember, that's all

19 right.

20 A. No, I don't think so he's Boban Indjic. It should be something

21 else.

22 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay.

23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, you should avoid leading

24 questions.

25 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 14586

1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Janc -- or perhaps you're asking the witness

2 about the basis of his knowledge about this, the identity of this person.

3 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, I was just about to. I was going to ask

4 him first to identify the location.

5 Q. Can you tell us about the location that we see here in the video

6 footage?

7 A. Yes. This is Jela Restaurant in Han Kram, near Han Pijesak.

8 Q. And how do you know that?

9 A. This is a footage, and we later on see when the agreement was

10 signed between the General Mladic, representing the VRS on one side, and

11 the UNPROFOR members, General Smith. And we know that this took place

12 from different sources. One of those would be witnesses who are present

13 at this meeting and who testified here in this trial, and we interviewed

14 them before. There are then several documents, in particular this

15 agreement which was signed there, and from these sources we can conclude

16 this is Jela Restaurant.

17 Q. All right. Have you been to this restaurant yourself?

18 A. I was at that location, but at the time when I was there, the

19 building was not there anymore. It's destroyed right now. So I haven't

20 entered the actual building, but I was at that spot, yes.

21 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. Let me play a little bit more of the

22 footage.

23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. --

24 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, Mr. President.

25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Judge Nyambe has a question for the witness.

Page 14587

1 JUDGE NYAMBE: Yes, I have a question for you, Mr. Janc.

2 Were you there in this restaurant? First, that's the question,

3 first question. The second question: How can you tell, by looking at

4 this room in which this gentleman is standing, that this is the

5 Jela Restaurant?

6 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour, I think I've answered part of

7 your question and that I was not inside this restaurant, because at the

8 time when I was there, for my first time, that was in 2006, the building

9 was not there anymore, so I couldn't enter it. That this is going on in

10 this restaurant I can tell from the statements which were taken from the

11 witnesses which are present in this restaurant. Particularly I'm

12 referring here to Mr. David Wood, who I interviewed in London back then,

13 I think, in 2007 or 2008, and he identified this building as being -- and

14 this room as being the Jela Restaurant.

15 JUDGE NYAMBE: Thank you.

16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I put a follow-up question.

17 In which way did you know -- or did you get information about the

18 identity of the person of Mr. Indjic ?

19 THE WITNESS: Yes, I would say through same sources. I think,

20 also, David Wood told us about him, and he was very often present at that

21 time in these meetings, attending these meetings with UNPROFOR, because

22 he was interpreting for -- from B/C/S into English and from English into

23 B/C/S for the VRS. So from these sources we know, basically from the

24 sources we interviewed, that this is this individual.

25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.

Page 14588

1 Mr. Vanderpuye.

2 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.

3 Let's just play this on through 2 minutes and 43 seconds.

4 [Video-clip played]

5 MR. VANDERPUYE:

6 Q. Mr. Janc, can you tell us -- I'm sorry, we stopped at 1 minute,

7 35 seconds again.

8 Can you tell us who we have in the frame?

9 A. Yeah, okay, I will try to remember, because I don't see the

10 picture on the screen anymore. Far right, I think it --

11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Don't you have the picture in front of you?

12 THE WITNESS: No, it's -- just a second.

13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The Court Usher should assist you.

14 THE WITNESS: Ah, now it is. Thank you. It was different

15 button.

16 So, yes, let me start maybe from the left-hand side. This is

17 General Ratko Mladic, and next to him is General Rupert Smith, and the

18 last one on the right-hand side we can see is Colonel Baxter from

19 UNPROFOR.

20 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. We can play it through a little bit,

21 and then I'd like to show you a document.

22 [Video-clip played]

23 MR. VANDERPUYE: We've stopped it at 2 minutes, 41.9 seconds.

24 I'd like to show you, if I could, Mr. Janc, P1977.

25 Q. First, have you seen this document before, Mr. Janc?

Page 14589

1 A. Yes, I did.

2 Q. And can you tell us what it is, what it's about?

3 A. It is an UNPROFOR report, I think, regarding this meeting at

4 Jela Restaurant on 19th of July, 1995.

5 Q. And does it correspond to the video footage that we've seen

6 concerning the 19 July meeting between General Smith and General Mladic?

7 A. Yes, it does.

8 MR. VANDERPUYE: I'd like to go to the next page, if I could.

9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

11 I wouldn't want to take up the Prosecutor's time, but this video

12 footage was already identified when Mr. Rupert Smith was here and his

13 associates, and I don't know why do we have to do it again, although I

14 have no complaints about it being tendered and accepted into evidence.

15 And, secondly, there is no translation. I don't know what's

16 being discussed here. I don't speak English. Thank you.

17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Indeed, both the document -- the video and this

18 document are already in evidence, and we have seen the video. It's up to

19 the Prosecution to decide. And what about the translation,

20 Mr. Vanderpuye?

21 Now I see it. We have it on the screen.

22 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, if there's no objection to the

23 video evidence being received -- I understood that it was MFI'd, but if

24 it's otherwise admitted in evidence and there's no objection to it, then

25 I think there is not much need to authenticate it. In any event, I will

Page 14590

1 have Mr. Janc briefly --

2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. I just was informed by the

3 Registrar that you're right, the video is MFI'd and not admitted into

4 evidence yet.

5 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.

6 Q. Mr. Janc, did you have an opportunity to review this document?

7 As you can see from the title, it's from Lieutenant-Colonel Baxter, and

8 it concerns a meeting -- it's dated July 19, 1995, and concerns a meeting

9 between General Smith and General Mladic. Did you consult this in

10 evaluating the provenance of the video footage that we've seen?

11 A. Yes, I did.

12 Q. And you can see here, at the end of paragraph 1, a reference

13 to -- well, the sentence reads that:

14 "General Mladic was accompanied by General Tolimir and

15 Lieutenant-Colonel Indic."

16 Can you tell us about that in relation to the footage that we've

17 seen?

18 A. Yes, I can. As we have seen and identified

19 Lieutenant-Colonel Indjic on the video before, and also from the video we

20 could see the face of General Tolimir also being present before the

21 meeting, before the agreement has been signed, and he was there. And

22 also from the comments made later on by General Mladic during the meeting

23 itself, when the agreement was signed, Mladic has referred to him, to

24 General Tolimir, several times.

25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, we should see the sequence of the

Page 14591

1 video again where we can see Mr. Tolimir.

2 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. We'll do that.

3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: As indicated by the witness.

4 [Video-clip played]

5 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right.

6 Q. Are you able to tell who this individual is? We're at 00:24.6.

7 A. Yes, this is General Tolimir.

8 Q. How do you know?

9 A. I think we have a little bit better picture before this frame, a

10 little bit -- we can see a little bit more of him. And also he was

11 identified by David Wood during the interview.

12 Q. Identified by David Wood during the interview that you conducted

13 with him?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Have you seen other photographs of General Tolimir from this

16 time-frame?

17 A. Yes. Not only photographs. We have also other videos from this

18 time -- from that time, about General Tolimir being present at different

19 meetings.

20 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. We can roll on a little bit further

21 to see what General Mladic says about General Tolimir. And we'll have to

22 go to the part where General Mladic and General Smith are together, so

23 that's -- yeah, this is probably a good place to start. That's at

24 1 minute, 26 seconds.

25 [Video-clip played]

Page 14592

1 MR. VANDERPUYE: Here, we've stopped at 2 minutes -- pretty much

2 2 minutes even, and we see General Mladic saying:

3 "I'll go, but General Tolimir will stay here."

4 Q. Is that what you were referring to previously in response to the

5 questions from the Bench?

6 A. Yes, but not only this, because this is only a segment of the

7 entire video and also the segment of this meeting itself. We have a much

8 longer portion of this meeting on the tape itself, and several times --

9 at least one or two more times during this meeting General Mladic is

10 referring to General Tolimir. At one point, he refers to him just as

11 "Toso." As we know, that was his nickname at that time, so -- but also

12 as "General Tolimir."

13 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay.

14 Mr. President, I would like to tender this video footage to be

15 received in evidence.

16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received as P740.

17 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.

18 Q. I would like to show you another video, Mr. Janc. That one is

19 P2231.

20 We're right at the beginning of this frame. It's 00:14.9.

21 And before I play it: Can you tell us, first of all, do you

22 recognise this scene?

23 A. Yes, I do. It's the outside of this same Jela Restaurant, and

24 this is now on 20 of July, 1995, one day after that one we see -- we just

25 saw. And this is actually the farewell ceremony or party for

Page 14593

1 General Milenko Zivanovic.

2 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. I'm going to play you some of this

3 footage and then I'll ask you some questions about it.

4 So let's play this through 1 minute and 52 seconds.

5 [Video-clip played]

6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Would you please stop here. Mr. Gajic wants to

7 comment something.

8 Mr. Gajic.

9 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon to all.

10 Mr. President, we are not able to hear anything. We don't have

11 any sound.

12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I agree, we don't hear anything, that's right.

13 We only see the subtitles.

14 MR. VANDERPUYE: I agree. We'll try and work that out. There is

15 sound, for sure, on this segment of the video, so I think we have just a

16 technical problem to work out.

17 [Video-clip played]

18 MR. VANDERPUYE: I hear something now. I wonder if you can hear

19 it. We may have to turn the headphones up somewhat, but I can hear the

20 sound now.

21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Indeed, we hear it as well.

22 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay. Shall we try again, then? We'll start

23 right at the beginning.

24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, I think we should do that.

25 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. Let's play it. Thanks.

Page 14594

1 [Video-clip played]

2 MR. VANDERPUYE: We've stopped it now at 1:14.9.

3 Q. Mr. Janc, can you tell us who the individual is in the middle --

4 just about the middle of this frame?

5 A. Yes. This is General Manojlo Milovanovic.

6 Q. And how do you know that?

7 A. I think he identified himself during this trial, and also I met

8 him before, several times, or at least two times before, so I can confirm

9 that's him.

10 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay. Let's continue playing, please.

11 [Video-clip played]

12 MR. VANDERPUYE: We've now stopped it at 1:32.7.

13 Q. Can you tell us who the individual is with the hand on his chest

14 or abdomen?

15 A. Yes. This is General Milenko Zivanovic, up until that time the

16 commander of Drina Corps.

17 Q. And how do you know that?

18 A. For this individual, I know that that's him from statements I've

19 read and from -- of different individuals who identified him who were

20 shown the photograph of him. And also he was interviewed not by me, but

21 by the other members of the OTP, and from that interview he identified

22 himself as well. And he was one of the sources who gave us this video

23 during that interview.

24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we don't have

Page 14595

1 anything against admitting anything, but Mr. Vanderpuye could ask

2 Mr. Janc does he know any other persons in this footage and who is who,

3 because this is recognition on the basis of the film, not on the basis of

4 experience or knowledge. I don't know why this is being done. Thank

5 you. We are putting the witness and the Prosecutor in an uncomfortable

6 position, as well as the Trial Chamber, to accept hearsay.

7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.

8 MR. VANDERPUYE: I'm not quite sure what the basis of the

9 objection is. It seems that the witness has identified General Zivanovic

10 in connection with General Zivanovic's own statement, among other

11 sources, so as to testify about the provenance of the footage that we

12 see.

13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, of course it's a problem. The

14 witness was not present on the spot when this video was taken, so that we

15 must get clear and precise information about the specific source, with

16 whom he discussed the video, who was the person who identified specific

17 the people depicted in the video. So that it can't be enough to say, He

18 was interviewed by an investigator of the OTP. We need a bit more

19 specific answers.

20 Judge Nyambe wants to add something.

21 JUDGE NYAMBE: In fact, Mr. Vanderpuye, just to add on to what

22 the Presiding Judge has said, you had the opportunity to produce this

23 video footage through -- I may not be able to pronounce the name, but the

24 deputy commander to General Mladic, who is shown in the footage, who was

25 a witness here just a few days ago.

Page 14596

1 MR. VANDERPUYE: That's correct, Your Honour, and I believe the

2 footage was shown to him during the course of his testimony. I

3 understand that the footage was marked for identification in relation to

4 that, which I'm not sure why. If he identified himself on the footage

5 itself, I'm not sure why it was marked for identification.

6 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: If I recall correctly, and I was informed by the

8 Registrar, it was marked for identification not because the people were

9 not identified by the witness, Milovanovic, but the transcript and the

10 translation of the transcript was not produced at that time. And I think

11 this is now available. We saw the subtitles, and I would like to ask you

12 if we have a full translation of the subtitles in both languages. That

13 was the reason we only marked it for identification.

14 MR. VANDERPUYE: I see, Mr. President.

15 I think we do, and if you'll bear with me, I can verify that for

16 you.

17 In addition, I do have and I was intending to present the

18 Trial Chamber with the statement of General Milovanovic, who was depicted

19 in this footage - actually, in the frame that we have before us right

20 now - in which he identifies himself and he identifies this meeting that

21 actually took place on the 20th, which I think obviously is of relevance

22 to the authenticity of the video footage, in addition to

23 General Milovanovic's identification of himself as having been there.

24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Gajic.

25 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if I remember

Page 14597

1 correctly, and I think it would be good for all of us to be reminded at

2 this time, specifically that this part was not shown to

3 Witness Milovanovic when he testified here, only the sections from the

4 restaurant and, if I remember correctly, near a chopper that is seen here

5 in the footage considerably later, I belive. So what we're looking at

6 now, I think we did not see before, when General Milovanovic was here.

7 Only a few seconds were played to him of this particular segment, perhaps

8 a minute or so.

9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.

10 MR. VANDERPUYE: That's my recollection as well, but I think that

11 the video footage is continuous. And so to the extent that we have an

12 individual who identifies himself as being at a meeting in one part of

13 the footage, and the continuity of that footage shows other parts of that

14 meeting, it seems to me that having identified himself at the beginning

15 part of the video-tape bears on the authenticity or the provenance of the

16 entirety of the tape, particularly since he confirmed that he was at this

17 going-away, he also confirmed that General Mladic was at the going-away,

18 and I believe he also confirmed some of the substance of what the

19 gathering was about.

20 And I think that the video footage, in its entirety, or at least

21 the parts I intend to show, substantiate that. And that's the basis of

22 the relevance of showing these other parts of the footage as well as

23 introducing other components which support its authenticity and

24 reliability.

25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That part of the video we are discussing about

Page 14598

1 was shown to the witness Manojlo Milovanovic on the 18th of May, 2011,

2 and the Chamber decided already to receive it as an exhibit, but only

3 mark it until we have received the translation and the transcript.

4 That's all. And therefore I'm not sure if it's really necessary to

5 identify those people to be shown on the video who are already identified

6 by an eye-witness who took part in this meeting; for instance,

7 Witness Milovanovic. He testified about the helicopter flight, the

8 arrival of General Mladic, in other parts of this video.

9 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay, Mr. President. I understand.

10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And, again, please help us and tell us if the

11 transcript and the translation is available.

12 MR. VANDERPUYE: I think there's not a translation available. As

13 you know, the video footage itself is in B/C/S, so I think Mr. Gajic can

14 understand that. It is subtitled, so there's not an English

15 transcription of it. But, clearly, if that will assist the Court, we'll

16 get that done. I don't think the entirety of the video is subtitled. A

17 good portion of it is, and that's what I intended to show the

18 Trial Chamber. And if Mr. Gajic has an objection to the subtitles, as

19 they compare to the B/C/S audio, I'm sure that he will let us know about

20 that.

21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Once again, this is the only matter we should

22 discuss with this video, because there was no doubt that this one is an

23 authentic document. And, in fact, we decided on the admission of this

24 document already. So I would kindly ask you to consider if it is

25 necessary to ask this witness to identify people present in addition to

Page 14599

1 the identification of some people who have been present on the spot.

2 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.

3 I'll do my best to avoid that. I'm not sure exactly who's

4 identified whom in all of this footage, because we have quite a bit of

5 footage, but I'll do my best to avoid that, if at all possible. There is

6 one other individual, though, I did want him to try and identify, whom

7 I'm not sure has been identified thus far, so I'd like to ask him about

8 that.

9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please continue.

10 MR. VANDERPUYE:

11 Q. Mr. Janc, do you see this individual who is behind

12 General Zivanovic to his left? That would be over his left shoulder.

13 That would be to the right on the frame in front of us.

14 A. Yes, I see this one, but it's not -- the picture is not clear, so

15 I can't say anything right now who that might be.

16 Q. All right. If we play it a little bit from this point forward,

17 let us know if you're able to do that. We're at 1:32.7.

18 [Video-clip played]

19 MR. VANDERPUYE:

20 Q. Are you able to identify that individual?

21 A. Yes, correct, this is General Momir Talic. He was at that time

22 the commander of the 1st Krajina Corps of the VRS.

23 Q. And how do you know that?

24 A. He was indictee of this Tribunal. That's one source. I think

25 also during this video footage he is referred several times as

Page 14600

1 General Momir Talic. And also he gives a pistol to General Zivanovic at

2 one point in time during this ceremony, inside the -- inside the

3 restaurant, and we have a kind of a document from him, from

4 General Talic, regarding this pistol.

5 Q. All right. Is he mentioned at all during the course of the

6 interview that was conducted with General Zivanovic?

7 A. Yes, he is, indeed. So he's also mentioned in his interview.

8 Q. In what context?

9 A. I think in context of this, of getting a pistol from him, and

10 that's when we were also provided with the document from

11 General Zivanovic about this pistol.

12 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. Let's play forward a little bit.

13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You should first state the time when you have

14 stopped it.

15 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.

16 We're at 1:38.6.

17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And you are referring to the person at the right

18 side of the frame; is that correct?

19 THE WITNESS: Yes, that's correct.

20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.

21 Judge Nyambe has a question.

22 JUDGE NYAMBE: You said you have had occasion to -- no, no, no,

23 that's not what you're saying. Sorry. And I'll rephrase my question.

24 Have you had occasion to meet General Momir Talic face to face,

25 yourself?

Page 14601

1 THE WITNESS: No, Your Honour, because he passed away many years

2 ago, I think in 1996, 1997, something like that.

3 JUDGE NYAMBE: So your knowledge of him is from other sources,

4 secondary sources?

5 THE WITNESS: Yes, correct.

6 JUDGE NYAMBE: Okay. You may continue.

7 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you. Thank you, Judge Nyambe.

8 Q. The secondary source, in terms of your identification of

9 Momir Talic, did that come from the Tribunal?

10 A. Yes, correct.

11 Q. Was that a photograph of him as a suspect or an indictee of the

12 Tribunal?

13 A. Yes, correct.

14 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay. Let's play forward here from 1:38.6.

15 [Video-clip played]

16 MR. VANDERPUYE: Actually, we can play forward. I'm sorry.

17 [Video-clip played]

18 MR. VANDERPUYE:

19 Q. Can you tell us where these gentlemen are? We're stopped, I'm

20 sorry, at 1:55.1. Where is this?

21 A. Now they are inside the Jela Restaurant. Where exactly, which

22 room, I don't know.

23 Q. Okay.

24 MR. VANDERPUYE: What I'd like to do is to go forward to

25 19:34.11. I think that's right. And we can play it forward from here.

Page 14602

1 [Video-clip played]

2 MR. VANDERPUYE: We've stopped at 21:18.1.

3 Q. And here we see -- well, you tell us. Tell us if you agree that

4 this is General Mladic in this frame. Yes?

5 A. Yes, correct.

6 Q. And did you receive any information or did you learn any

7 information concerning General Mladic's arrival here by helicopter, as we

8 see in the footage?

9 A. I don't understand. In what sense do you mean?

10 Q. Did you read anything that said that he arrived there or hear any

11 testimony in this case, concerning this meeting, indicating that

12 General Mladic arrived by helicopter?

13 A. Yes, General Mladic was talking about it, and I think also

14 General Milovanovic during his interview, when he was interviewed.

15 Q. All right. I'd like to play you another part of this video

16 footage, starting at 23:39.4.

17 And before I play it, let me ask you this: Did you have any

18 information about what transpired during this particular gathering on the

19 20th of July?

20 A. No, I don't understand.

21 MR. VANDERPUYE: Let's play the footage.

22 [Video-clip played]

23 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. We've stopped at 33:54.3.

24 And I'd like to play for you, Mr. Janc, starting at 42:48.66. We

25 can play it now from 42:48.0.

Page 14603

1 [Video-clip played]

2 MR. VANDERPUYE: Here we stopped at 44:10.1.

3 Q. And we can see General Zivanovic is holding up a gun, Mr. Janc,

4 and you can see next to him the individual who you identified previously

5 as Momir Talic. Is this the portion you referred to when you spoke about

6 Momir Talic giving Zivanovic, General Zivanovic, a gun?

7 A. Yes, correct.

8 Q. And did you find that in the statement of General Zivanovic when

9 you read it?

10 A. Correct.

11 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. Let's play this footage through

12 47:13.

13 [Video-clip played]

14 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you. We've stopped it at 47:02.9.

15 Q. We can see from this footage, Mr. Janc, that it's somewhat of a

16 festive occasion. Can you tell us, or remind us, rather, when this

17 occurred relative to the executions that occurred at the Branjevo Farm?

18 A. This was four days later.

19 Q. And during the course of this, we could see that General Mladic

20 made some comments concerning Gorazde and Bihac. Can you just remind us

21 of what those areas were back then in 1995?

22 A. Gorazde was enclave. For Bihac, I'm not sure.

23 Q. Okay. And what about Zepa?

24 A. At that time still, yes.

25 Q. And can you tell us or just remind us when this celebration

Page 14604

1 occurred relative to the executions at Bisina?

2 A. It is three day before.

3 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. I'd like to show you --

4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: At this point in time, I would like to state that

5 the last part of the video we have seen was not subtitled. We only heard

6 some parts of the speech and other voices.

7 Mr. Tolimir.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

9 With all due respect, I have to emphasise that this witness was

10 called in order to identify the footage, rather than providing any

11 information or arguments to the Prosecution concerning something that

12 happened later. So I would ask that this be taken into account. Thank

13 you.

14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.

15 Mr. Vanderpuye.

16 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.

17 You are correct, the last part of the transcript -- I'm not sure

18 where it cut out, but somewhere around 40 minutes the subtitles did end.

19 I'd like to show the witness 65 ter 2783. This is the OTP

20 statement of General Zivanovic from 2001. We'll have to go to page 17 in

21 the English and page 12 in the B/C/S, please.

22 Q. And I just want to refer you to the last two paragraphs in the

23 English, and here you can see General Zivanovic, during the course of

24 this interview, is presenting a pistol. He says:

25 "I never fired a bullet."

Page 14605

1 And read -- and he says that it reads -- the description reads:

2 "To the commander of the Drina Corps, General M. Zivanovic."

3 Then it says:

4 "1 KK, the 1st Krajina Corps, 12th, 7 July -- the 12th, 1995."

5 He says:

6 "This gun -- this -- the gun and the document are presented ..."

7 And the transcript reads that it's indiscernible.

8 "... when they would be ... where Talic was also present. I now

9 have a cassette which explains a lot, at the ceremony of my departure on

10 July the 20th ..."

11 And then it says.

12 "... at Motel Jela on Romanija."

13 Is that what you were referring to previously in respect of this

14 video footage?

15 A. Yes, exactly.

16 Q. And here it's referred to as the Motel Jela. Is that the same as

17 the location that we've seen in this footage?

18 A. Most likely it is, but I'm not sure why general was referring

19 here to motel rather than to a restaurant.

20 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay. Thanks very much, Mr. Janc.

21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Judge Nyambe has a question.

22 JUDGE NYAMBE: As stated in the transcript, we are looking at the

23 statement of General Zivanovic. Is it my understanding that he has since

24 died? Am I correct?

25 THE WITNESS: No, Your Honour. General Zivanovic is still alive.

Page 14606

1 JUDGE NYAMBE: Okay.

2 THE WITNESS: But General Momir Talic, who gave a pistol to

3 General Zivanovic, he passed away.

4 JUDGE NYAMBE: Okay. In any event, my next question is: Did

5 you -- are you the one who took this statement from the person who gave

6 it?

7 THE WITNESS: No, Your Honour, it wasn't me. It was my

8 colleague, Investigator Allistair Graham, and this was in Belgrade.

9 JUDGE NYAMBE: Thank you.

10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.

11 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.

12 I know that this video is still MFI'd, pending the appropriate

13 translations, and we'll see to it that the Trial Chamber is provided with

14 that. Other than that condition, I would propose to admit it.

15 I would like to show the --

16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That was already decided.

17 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.

18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I have another question, for a better

19 understanding.

20 We see, in the B/C/S version of the statement given by

21 General Zivanovic to the OTP, we see there the abbreviation "AG," that

22 seems to be Mr. Graham; and the abbreviation "MZ," that seems to be the

23 witness, Zivanovic. What about the others? "PMC," who is that? Can you

24 help us?

25 THE WITNESS: Yes, correct, Your Honour. This one is referring

Page 14607

1 to Peter McCloskey, who was also present during this interview.

2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.

3 Mr. Vanderpuye, carry on, please.

4 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.

5 I think if we go to the very first page we might be able to see

6 all of this. That may be helpful to the Trial Chamber.

7 Here, we can see who are the parties that are present, and it

8 indicates that Allistair Graham is there, Senior Trial Attorney

9 Peter McCloskey is there, General Milenko Zivanovic is there, and then

10 there's also an interpreter there by the name of

11 Miljena Petkovic [phoen], and also Mirka Zivanovic, who is

12 General Zivanovic's wife. And the date is indicated as 30th of October,

13 2001.

14 I won't be tendering this particular document. I think it's

15 sufficient that it's shown to the Trial Chamber. But I would like to

16 show the witness another video footage which I have here as P740.

17 I just want to show you this footage from the same video-tape as

18 the 19 July Jela Restaurant meeting in Han Kram. This, you can see,

19 indicates UN check-point Boksanica, 24 July 1995, and it's pretty short.

20 We'll play it through to -- well, we're at 35:32, and we'll play it

21 through 35:41, please.

22 [Video-clip played]

23 MR. VANDERPUYE:

24 Q. Can you tell us who is the individual here in the blue suit in

25 this video footage?

Page 14608

1 A. Yes. This is General Tolimir.

2 Q. And can you tell who the person is to the left of

3 General Tolimir, maybe not in this frame, but have you seen this footage

4 before?

5 A. Yes, I've seen it several times.

6 Q. Are you able to tell us who the individual is to the left -- to

7 General Tolimir's right, that is, to the left on this frame?

8 A. So to his right or to our left-hand side is the person who we can

9 see only half of it. This is commander of the Rogatica Brigade,

10 Rajko Kusic.

11 Q. And how do you know that?

12 A. He was identified several times from different witnesses

13 showing -- who were shown this video or similar videos from this point

14 and time, and they identified him.

15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: First, we stopped at 35:41.7.

16 Secondly, I would like to ask you: What is the source of your

17 identification of the man in the blue jacket?

18 THE WITNESS: This individual and all other individuals were also

19 identified by Mr. Hamdija Torlak, I think, also when he testified here

20 for this trial and exactly this footage was shown to him. And he

21 explained in detail who these individuals are there and when exactly this

22 took place.

23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.

24 Mr. Tolimir.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 14609

1 So as not to waste more time about this, can we please show the

2 footage, a moving image, so that we could find out how this meeting came

3 to take place and whether this has been edited or not?

4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Judge Nyambe.

5 JUDGE NYAMBE: [Microphone not activated]

6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Janc, one simple question: Do you identify

9 the man in the blue jacket as the person present here in the courtroom?

10 THE WITNESS: Yes, correct.

11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It's the same person?

12 THE WITNESS: Yes, correct.

13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And you are referring to the testimony of

14 Mr. Torlak?

15 THE WITNESS: Yes, correct. And also we can see this same

16 individual, General Tolimir, on other footages and other videos from this

17 same time-frame period, and I can confirm this is the same person.

18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, please carry on.

19 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.

20 If I didn't put it on the record, we've stopped at 35:41.7, and

21 I'd like to play it through to 36:11.

22 [Video-clip played]

23 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right.

24 Q. We saw that at a certain point this footage became less clear

25 than it was originally, and I would like, if you could, to provide the

Page 14610

1 Trial Chamber with some indication about the source of this video

2 footage.

3 A. Yes. This segment that we have just seen is taken from the

4 documentary on Avdo Palic's story, which the OTP obtained in 2000, and

5 this segment was part of this documentary. And why the certain -- at a

6 certain moment the footage was changed, it's just because on that

7 documentary the camera is actually taking picture of the television,

8 where the footage is playing, and at one point the picture becomes less

9 clear. So that's why we can also see, here, that difference.

10 Q. Does that mean that the footage that we see from 35:33.50, or

11 about where we started initially, between that and the end, where we've

12 stopped now at 36:12, that that footage is not continuous, it's been

13 edited?

14 A. Yes, we can say that, yes.

15 Q. Do you know if the OTP has made any efforts to identify the

16 source of the video footage that we see here and, in particular, the

17 video footage you say is shot of a television showing these events?

18 A. Yes, we tried to obtain this footage also from the other sources.

19 And because this was our first source -- the Avdo Palic's documentary was

20 our first source from whom we obtained this video, and we contacted the

21 producer or director of this documentary in order to get the video from

22 him, and he referred us to the BH authorities because, according to him,

23 he was not in possession of this video.

24 And during my investigation, we have asked the authorities in

25 Bosnia and Herzegovina if they can provide us with video of this same

Page 14611

1 event, and, indeed, just recently they sent us a footage -- a longer

2 footage of the events which occurred around Zepa at that time, and one

3 segment of this bigger footage also included this same segment from

4 24 of July. Also, there is a third source which I actually obtained from

5 publicly-available YouTube. So there is a third one which we can also

6 get from that public-available source. So it's not the only source we

7 have. So we have confirmed this video, this footage, from other sources

8 as well.

9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I would have some questions for the witness, but

10 we should do that and continue after the break.

11 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.

12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We need the break now, and we will resume quarter

13 past 4.00.

14 --- Recess taken at 3.47 p.m.

15 --- On resuming at 4.21 p.m.

16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, I would like to ask you to bear

17 in mind the time you are spending with this witness. You indicated two

18 hours. And when we look into the witness summary you provided to the

19 Chamber, I think the most important thing is to identify not the persons

20 depicted in the videos, but the source. And just before the break,

21 Mr. Janc told us something about different types of videos obtained from

22 different sources. This is, in fact, the gist of the testimony of this

23 witness at this stage in the trial. We should avoid just to see all the

24 documents or the videos again which are already in evidence and we

25 discussed it earlier. They are only marked for identification until we

Page 14612

1 receive the transcript and the translation.

2 So please focus on the specific questions you wanted to put to

3 the witness, especially as he was not an eye-witness of the events

4 depicted in these videos, and we have had some of the persons depicted

5 there as witnesses in the Tribunal, as Mr. Torlak, Mr. Milovanovic, and

6 others.

7 Please go ahead, and I would like to ask you to discuss a bit

8 more the sources of these three types of the video we have seen before

9 the break.

10 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you very much, Mr. President. That's

11 exactly where I was headed.

12 Q. Mr. Janc, you indicated that efforts were made to contact BH

13 authorities with respect to this footage that we've just seen, and that's

14 the 24th July Boksanica footage, P740.

15 I'd like to show you 65 ter 7390.

16 MR. VANDERPUYE: While that's loading up -- okay. This is a

17 document that was not part of the original 65 ter list. It was received

18 by the OTP in March. It's dated 11 March 2011, Mr. President, and I'd

19 like to add it to the 65 ter list because I think it responds directly to

20 the issues you're concerned about.

21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Leave is granted to do that.

22 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.

23 Q. Do you recognise this document, Mr. Janc?

24 A. Yes, I do.

25 Q. And what does it relate to?

Page 14613

1 A. This relates to the video I was discussing before which was

2 provided to us, as you can see here, in March 2011 from the

3 State Investigative and Protection Agency of the BiH. And they obtained

4 it from the BiH Radio/Television, as you will see from the following

5 pages.

6 Q. On this first page, it indicates that it responds to a request

7 for all video footage relating to Zepa in July 1995. Is that, in fact,

8 what was requested?

9 A. Yes, correct.

10 Q. And with respect to the material that was received, can you tell

11 us what that material was? What did it contain?

12 A. Yes. It's a compilation of the footages which were broadcasted

13 at the time regarding Zepa events and what the BiH Radio and Television

14 was able to identify and found in their archives, and that's what they

15 provided to the State Investigative and Protective Agency.

16 Q. May I show you the next page, please, of this document. Can you

17 tell us what this is? Have you seen it before and can you tell us what

18 it is?

19 A. Yes, I've seen this before. And this is what I was referring to,

20 a letter from the Radio and Television of Bosnia and Herzegovina which

21 was provided along with the videos to the BiH state authorities. I mean

22 SIPA.

23 Q. Is this a list of the material that was received or the

24 programmes or footage that was received by the OTP from the B&H

25 authorities?

Page 14614

1 A. Yes, correct.

2 Q. All right.

3 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I'd like to tender this document.

4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 7390 shall be

6 assigned Exhibit P2239. Thank you.

7 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I would like to also add to the

8 65 ter list 65 ter 7389. This is the video footage that was received by

9 the OTP as per this -- as per this exhibit.

10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Leave is granted to add it to the 65 ter exhibit

11 list.

12 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.

13 And we'll need to play this from about 20 seconds. It seems

14 about right. I'm sorry, 20 minutes. 20 minutes. I think that's right,

15 20 minutes.

16 Okay, let's see if this is right. We can play it.

17 [Video-clip played]

18 MR. VANDERPUYE:

19 Q. First, let me just ask: Have you seen this footage before?

20 A. Yes, I have.

21 Q. Okay. And does it correspond to the footage that we previously

22 saw in Exhibit P740?

23 A. Yes, it does.

24 MR. VANDERPUYE: I apologise to the Court. We don't have

25 subtitles for this, so we don't have a translation for you. But let's

Page 14615

1 play it through anyway.

2 [Video-clip played]

3 MR. VANDERPUYE:

4 Q. Were you able to compare this footage to the footage that was

5 in -- I'm sorry, we've stopped at 20:30.7.

6 Were you able to compare this footage to the footage that we saw

7 earlier in P740?

8 A. Yes, I was.

9 Q. And does it -- is it the same footage or is it footage of the

10 same event, perhaps from a different angle or something like that?

11 A. It is the same event and it is the same camera.

12 Q. You indicated earlier that you were able to locate this -- the

13 footage of this event, you said, through publicly-available sources.

14 I think you mentioned YouTube.

15 A. Correct.

16 Q. And were you able to compare that footage to the footage both in

17 P740 and to this footage, which is 65 ter 7389 for the moment?

18 A. Yes, I was, and they are all the same.

19 Q. Okay. Are they of the same event or are they the same, in other

20 words, shot by the same camera, as opposed to shot from a different angle

21 or something like this?

22 A. It is the same event and the same camera, from the same angle.

23 Q. All right.

24 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I would like to tender

25 65 ter 7389.

Page 14616

1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be marked for identification until we see

2 and we receive the transcript and the translation.

3 Mr. Tolimir.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I apologise.

5 Because there was mention of editing during the examination of this

6 witness, I would like to know whether the OTP handed this in for an

7 expertise to determine what was edited and what was not. Maybe it would

8 be better to have it admitted only after an expertise has been done.

9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The statement of Mr. Janc about editing a video

10 was made in relation to the previous document, P740, and not in relation

11 to this one we just have received. In addition, you may deal with that

12 in your cross-examination.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 7389 shall be

14 assigned Exhibit P --

15 THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation]

16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: No. Now the Registrar has the floor.

17 THE REGISTRAR: With your leave, Your Honours, 65 ter document

18 7389 shall be assigned Exhibit P2240, marked for identification, pending

19 translation and transcription. Thank you.

20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.

21 Mr. Tolimir.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, thank you.

23 I cannot ask either the witness or the Prosecutor about why would

24 this be admitted or not. I'm asking you: Is it true that we are

25 admitting all documents, regardless of the fact whether they may have

Page 14617

1 been tampered with during editing or not? Is it all right to admit

2 something that was edited as a credible piece of evidence, because this

3 witness here is to help us with the credibility?

4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, the Chamber has ruled on that. We

5 have already marked that for identification. And, again, the editing

6 question was in relation to another document, not to this one. And you

7 may ask the witness about the editing process with the other document,

8 P740. No problem with that.

9 Please carry on, Mr. Vanderpuye.

10 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.

11 I have a --

12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And I would like to add: This is exactly the

13 purpose of cross-examination. You have received all the material, you

14 have the witness summary, and this is the issue Mr. Vanderpuye is dealing

15 with. And this is now, then, the purpose of your cross-examination.

16 Please carry on.

17 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.

18 I would like to show the witness another video-clip. It's

19 65 ter 5507. I think we'll need to go into private session for this one.

20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Private.

21 [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by order of Chamber]

22 THE REGISTRAR: We're in private session, Your Honours. Thank

23 you.

24 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.

25 We're in -- I've asked to be in private session, Mr. President,

Page 14618

1 because this video-clip is untitled -- an un-subtitled version of P2228.

2 I think that was used in the -- during the course of

3 General Milovanovic's testimony, and some issue arose with respect to the

4 status of the exhibit, which has not yet been resolved. And so I

5 thought, out of an abundance of caution, I should show this clip, because

6 it's part of that same material, in private session.

7 I just want to start out at, I think it should be 49:21 on this

8 clip, and then I will play it through just for a few seconds and then

9 switch to the subtitled version so the Trial Chamber can follow.

10 Q. Can you see, first of all, the frame that's in e-court now,

11 Mr. Janc?

12 A. Yes, I can.

13 Q. And are you able to identify, just from this frame, what this

14 location is?

15 A. Yes. This is an area south from Crna Rijeka, near Potplanje and

16 Planje area.

17 Q. And how were you able to make that determination?

18 A. When listening the video itself, from the content, you can

19 conclude what the participants of this conversation are talking about,

20 and exactly they are referring to some villages which are underneath this

21 area, and they are referring to the villages as Planje and Potplanje.

22 And when we obtained this video, the OTP has made an effort to try to

23 identify this location, where exactly this is. And my colleague,

24 Investigator Tomasz Blaszczyk, was going on the field, and he was able to

25 find this location, and he took some picture of it and then took the GPS

Page 14619

1 readings, and he was able to confirm that this is, indeed, that location;

2 not only based on this photo, what we can see on the screen, but we'll

3 have a little bit more area visible on the video itself.

4 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. We can play this through just for a

5 few seconds.

6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, it would be helpful, for a better

7 understanding of what we are going to see, if you could, with the

8 witness, elaborate a little bit more about the source of this video,

9 where he got it from, and, yeah, including the question of editing. That

10 would be helpful.

11 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.

12 Q. First of all, can you tell us what the source of this video is,

13 Mr. Janc?

14 A. Yes. The OTP obtained this video -- or actually received on

15 24 of August, 2009, from the authorities of the Republic of Canada. And

16 during the interrogation of their citizen, Mr. Milan Lesic, at the

17 beginning of August of that year, they seized this particular video from

18 him. And this individual is the representative of Serb community in

19 Canada, and I've been discussing -- actually, testifying about this video

20 and another video which was also provided by him to the authorities of

21 the -- Canada on the same day when I testified about the meeting in -- on

22 16 of July in Belgrade with Mladic and other persons present and on

23 17 of July. That was during my last testimony. And from the same

24 source, on the same date, we also obtained this video.

25 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. I think we might as well explore

Page 14620

1 this now.

2 MR. VANDERPUYE: If I could show the witness, please, 65 ter

3 6580. That's under seal.

4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It should not be broadcast.

5 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I don't believe we have a

6 translation of this document. I'll read a bit of it into the record so

7 that General Tolimir can have some acquaintance with what it is. It's

8 dated 21 August 2009. It's -- the stationary, or letterhead, indicates

9 "Department of Justice, Canada, Ontario Regional Office," and it is

10 directed to the Office of the Prosecutor of the ICTY, and it refers to:

11 "Dear Mr. Piekos."

12 Q. Can you tell us who that is, Mr. Janc?

13 A. Yes. This individual is the investigator of the OTP.

14 Q. And then it says:

15 "Regarding Lesic, Milan, court file number ...," and it says

16 "Crim Mot F," and then it gives a number, "... witness evidence hearing

17 6th and 7th August, 2009, Superior Court of Justice (Central West

18 Region - Brampton)."

19 And the letter indicates as follows:

20 "Please find enclosed a certified copy of the sending-abroad

21 order dated August 20, 2009, signed by the Honourable Senior Regional

22 Madam Justice F. Van Melle of the Superior Court of Justice (Central West

23 Region - Brampton)."

24 And then it says in the next paragraph:

25 "... find enclosed a copy of the report of the Honourable ...

Page 14621

1 Justice ... Van Melle ..."

2 And it says:

3 "Attached to the report is a copy of the exhibit list containing

4 four pages of documented exhibits.

5 "Also find enclosed are various-sized envelopes containing actual

6 exhibits corresponding to the exhibit list which were all produced by

7 Mr. Milan Lesic during his testimony heard ... on August 6th and 7, 2009,

8 before ... Justice ... Van Melle."

9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.

10 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, Mr. President.

11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Can you explain why this was put under seal?

12 MR. VANDERPUYE: I can. I'm just about to go to the next page of

13 it, and I think that explains it.

14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Okay. Thank you. Go ahead.

15 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.

16 If we go to the next page of this document, we'll see the

17 sending-abroad order. I'm sorry, the page after that. Okay.

18 Q. Here, you can -- this is entitled -- for the benefit of

19 General Tolimir, it's entitled "Superior Court of Justice (Central West

20 Region), and it says:

21 "In the matter of an application pursuant to Section 20 of the

22 Mutual Legal Assistance in Criminal Matters Act for sending-abroad order

23 regarding the examination of a witness pursuant to Section 18(2)(a) of

24 the Act, and in the matter of a request for assistance from the

25 United Nations International Criminal Tribunal for the former

Page 14622

1 Yugoslavia."

2 Essentially, this, in paragraph 1, orders that all original

3 exhibits filed during the examination of Milan Lesic on 6th and 7th 2009

4 [sic], which are described in the attached list, be sent forthwith to the

5 ICTY OTP. That's in paragraph 1.

6 And if we go to two pages up to 65 -- to ERN ending 19, this,

7 hopefully, is responsive to Your Honour's question, and this, in

8 paragraph 7, reads that:

9 "The Court further orders that the OTP not provide any of the

10 items provided by Milan Lesic to third parties or publish or distribute

11 those items in any fashion, except for the purposes of conducting

12 prosecutions before the ICTY and in providing disclosure in the course of

13 those prosecutions, and for the purpose of assisting other law

14 enforcement agencies in the investigation or prosecution of war crimes or

15 crimes against humanity in the former Yugoslavia."

16 Essentially, this is the basis upon which the documents were

17 furnished to the OTP and explains the nature of the restriction with

18 respect to their use in open session. There is some question about the

19 scope of the restriction, but in an abundance of caution at this point,

20 we think it's appropriate to proceed in a private session.

21 If we go to ERN ending 21, page 7 in e-court, we will see the

22 facsimile cover sheet which concerns the transmission of the exhibit

23 list, and you can see here it's dated 14 August 2008, and it comprises

24 some four pages.

25 If we go to the next page, page 8, we'll see the list of

Page 14623

1 exhibits. On this page, we see photos and so on.

2 We'll see on the last -- I'm sorry, not the last page, but

3 ERN ending 24, page 10, if we focus on item 4, we'll see a VHS tape, and

4 it says "August 1994."

5 Can you tell us about that, Mr. Janc?

6 A. Yes, I can. This is actually the tape, a segment of which we

7 will be just watching in a few minutes, and on this tape, actually, this

8 segment was also part of -- and it's -- on the actual tape, it's a label,

9 "August 1994." And from the stamp on the video itself, you can see that

10 it is dated 15 of August, 1994.

11 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. I think we can go back to that. We

12 can go back to 65 ter 5507, and we'll just play it briefly, as this is

13 not subtitled, and then we'll go to the subtitled version.

14 Q. Here we can see what you indicated, the date of August 15, 1994.

15 And, once again, is this the footage that was received by the OTP

16 pursuant to this sending-abroad order?

17 A. Yes, correct.

18 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. Let's play it through just a few

19 seconds.

20 [Video-clip played]

21 MR. VANDERPUYE:

22 Q. Here we can see we go from this scene immediately to what appears

23 to be the inside of the car. Can you tell us about that?

24 A. Yes. First we have seen the scene from outside, from the area,

25 and you could hear the voice of Milan Lesic and General Ratko Mladic.

Page 14624

1 And now they are both inside the car, driving along the road and

2 discussing.

3 Q. All right. What I'd like to do is play you the subtitled portion

4 of this footage, and that's going to come from P2228, which I understand

5 was marked for identification during the course of General Milovanovic's

6 testimony for the reasons that I think were indicated concerning its

7 status as protected, so to speak. And we'll start this right at the

8 beginning of the footage and play it through all the way. It's about

9 10 minutes long.

10 [Video-clip played]

11 MR. VANDERPUYE: We've stopped at 10:46.9.

12 Q. I just wanted to ask a couple of questions, Mr. Janc. Were you

13 able to identify this route that we see that the car is taking on this --

14 in this footage?

15 A. Yes, we were able to identify this route, yes.

16 Q. I'd like to show you, very briefly --

17 MR. VANDERPUYE: First I'd like to tender this, if I may,

18 Mr. President.

19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think it's not enough to say, We were able to

20 identify this route. Could you explain that, please? Which route is it?

21 THE WITNESS: Yes, I think we will be -- I will mark the route on

22 the map. And this route was identified by my colleague,

23 Investigator Tomasz Blaszczyk, when he was on a mission, one of his

24 missions down in the area. So it is a route going down from -- close to

25 Crna Rijeka down to Potplanje and towards the Zepa enclave, and I will

Page 14625

1 mark the exact route on the map.

2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Have you been there?

3 THE WITNESS: I was on part of this route, yes. I was there

4 once, but not in the entire route.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Judge Nyambe.

7 JUDGE NYAMBE: I have a question for you, Mr. Vanderpuye.

8 Your witness on the stand now says:

9 "My colleague, Investigator Tomasz ... one of his missions down

10 in the area."

11 Indicating that really this is something in the knowledge of the

12 investigator that he refers to. Why wasn't this produced through that

13 investigator?

14 MR. VANDERPUYE: That's a good question, and I can offer the

15 following explanation:

16 We decided that it would be most appropriate, since Mr. Janc is

17 dealing with this video footage, and quite a large amount of the OTP's

18 video footage, that it would be more efficient to have Mr. Janc discuss

19 that footage. He discussed previous footage received from the -- are we

20 in open session now? We're --

21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We're still in private session.

22 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay.

23 He received this material and has testified about footage that

24 was provided from the same source that we see in this particular

25 instance, pursuant to his prior testimony about video footage that

Page 14626

1 comprised part of the trial video and other materials before the

2 Trial Chamber, and so we thought that it would be a more efficient way to

3 present the evidence to have Mr. Janc talk about all of those videos.

4 The fact that it's within the knowledge of Mr. Blaszczyk as well I don't

5 think is necessarily anything that detracts from the reliability of the

6 information that Mr. Janc brings to the Trial Chamber, except for the

7 fact that it's second-hand, it's not first-hand.

8 The rules of evidence in this Tribunal provide for the admission

9 or admissibility of second-hand information. There's simply no rule

10 against the admission of hearsay evidence, and that comes in, in a

11 variety of forms. It comes in a variety of forms in terms of documents,

12 video footage, even testimonial evidence. So I don't know, necessarily,

13 that it's fundamentally a lesser standard of evidence than any other

14 evidence that comes before the Trial Chamber. So I think -- I think,

15 under Rule 89 -- I think it's 89(C), it would be appropriate for the

16 Trial Chamber to receive it, even though Investigator Janc has direct

17 knowledge of having driven the route.

18 But, remember, even though Investigator Janc directly drove the

19 route, Investigator Janc didn't shoot the video, and he's relying on what

20 he sees in the video, or whoever shot the video, or however the video was

21 shot, to bring to you that information in any event. So no matter how

22 you toss it up, unless it's the person that's riding in the car, i.e.,

23 General Mladic or Milan Lesic, it is second-hand information in any

24 event. So I don't think that the fact that it's Investigator Janc or

25 it's Investigator Blaszczyk really makes much of a difference in terms of

Page 14627

1 the provenance or the reliability of the information for the

2 Trial Chamber.

3 In addition to that, the Trial Chamber has the video itself, and

4 so I think the Trial Chamber is in a position to compare what's in the

5 video to what Mr. Janc represents is the route or what Mr. Blaszczyk

6 would have represented was the route.

7 JUDGE NYAMBE: To the extent that you want to tell the Chamber,

8 through this witness, the route of -- the route that was taken, you don't

9 think a person who has been on that route is a better witness for you

10 than the one who hasn't been?

11 MR. VANDERPUYE: I do think that person is a better witness for

12 me, but I don't think that it's a necessary witness for me. And I think

13 there's a difference between that. I don't --

14 JUDGE NYAMBE: Okay.

15 MR. VANDERPUYE: And so that, to me, is a question of the weight

16 to be attributed to the evidence, but the evidence in this case is the

17 video. The principal evidence that we offer to the Trial Chamber is the

18 video itself. So I think that Mr. Janc's testimony concerning the route

19 is helpful to the Trial Chamber to assess the video, although I don't

20 think it's necessary to the Trial Chamber to assess the video, because

21 the video is what it is. It speaks for itself.

22 JUDGE NYAMBE: Thank you, Mr. Vanderpuye. You may continue.

23 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you very much, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, you are tendering the document

25 P2228 which was previously marked for identification. I take it this

Page 14628

1 document contains four different videos.

2 MR. VANDERPUYE: It does, indeed.

3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We have seen two of them, one today and one with

4 the witness Milovanovic. If I'm not mistaken, that was the New Year's

5 celebration.

6 MR. VANDERPUYE: I think that's right, yes, Mr. President.

7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Why is it one document that makes it quite

8 difficult to deal with it?

9 MR. VANDERPUYE: That's a very good question.

10 I think, in the end, it's going to form part of a compilation

11 video, and that's the reason why it's on one document for the moment.

12 You're right, it does complicate things somewhat. There is one other

13 segment of the video that I wanted to play to Mr. Janc, but it still

14 leaves another segment of the video without his testimony, and so I

15 understand the Court's concern.

16 I don't know that there's a way to admit it in parts or pieces of

17 it, which perhaps might be the most appropriate way to do it. But, in

18 any event, I think that whatever hasn't been shown to the Trial Chamber

19 will be shown to the Trial Chamber either now or at some other point, and

20 so maybe it's appropriate to leave it marked for identification until

21 that happens. But, in any event, I do have one other segment on this

22 video, on this document, that I would like to show the Trial Chamber.

23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, we have seen now that part which

24 is under seal, according to the conditions set up by the Canadian

25 authorities, and, therefore, we are still in private session.

Page 14629

1 I think it is a good proposal to postpone a decision about the

2 final admission of the evidence after we have seen the other portions.

3 Are they also under seal?

4 MR. VANDERPUYE: They are not, Mr. President, and we can go into

5 open session. Thank you.

6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We go into a public session.

7 MR. VANDERPUYE: If it would be helpful to the Trial Chamber --

8 THE REGISTRAR: Please hold on.

9 MR. VANDERPUYE: Sorry.

10 [Open session]

11 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours. Thank

12 you.

13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.

14 Mr. Vanderpuye.

15 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.

16 If it would be helpful to the Trial Chamber, I would like to have

17 Mr. Janc detail the route that we've just seen on the video footage, but

18 only if it's helpful. If it's not, otherwise, then there's certainly no

19 problem in moving on to the next segment.

20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It is your witness. You should decide.

21 MR. VANDERPUYE: Then I would like to show it to him, please.

22 And it's - just a moment - P104, and I think it might be helpful to go to

23 Map 10. Probably -- Mr. Janc will probably need the assistance of the

24 Usher.

25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Not with a hard copy, but with the screen.

Page 14630

1 Go ahead, please.

2 MR. VANDERPUYE: I think we'll need to go to page 12 in e-court.

3 I think we probably don't need the translation, if there is one,

4 and we can just put it on one screen. All right.

5 Q. Is this a helpful map for you, Mr. Janc? And let us know if we

6 should blow it up or anything like that.

7 A. Yes, we should blow it up, but only the upper part of it, around

8 VRS HQ and down to Godjenje IKM, that part.

9 We'll have to go a little bit to the left. Yes. It's okay. But

10 I would need it, I think, on this screen. On this screen it's not ready

11 yet.

12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: For marking the --

13 THE WITNESS: For marking.

14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: With the assistance of the Court Usher, please.

15 We have to wait a little moment because it has to be done technically, in

16 a proper way.

17 Mr. Janc, is this sufficient for the purpose of marking it?

18 THE WITNESS: Yes. I think it is, yes.

19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.

20 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.

21 Q. Mr. Janc, are you able to mark the route that we've just seen in

22 the video footage?

23 A. Yes, and I will start from the beginning, where we stopped and we

24 have seen the area underneath. So I marked it with X, for example.

25 I don't know if you can see it. It's inside the "Krivace IKM"

Page 14631

1 circle, and this is on the point where they stopped.

2 And then I will now go towards direction they were driving, so

3 from this X towards the west. So this is the road, and they stopped

4 here, in front of that building. You can see where they stopped. This

5 is the 65th Protection Regiment Base. They stopped there.

6 And from that point, they go down. And from this point down, I'm

7 not sure which route exactly they go. But from the video you can see

8 that General Mladic is referring to Maceha Hill, which is down here. I

9 will circle it and put M inside it. And that's why I think they are

10 travelling down here. And I will mark it with a dotted line because I'm

11 not 100 per cent sure. This direction down.

12 Q. And is that what you learned from Mr. Blaszczyk?

13 A. Yes, correct. He provided me with the GPS reading for the point

14 which I marked with X, and then he told me about the route where they

15 were driving down towards Maceha.

16 Q. Okay. And this is what you've marked now?

17 A. Yes, correct.

18 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right.

19 Mr. President, I would tender this marked map.

20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The map with the markings will be received as an

21 exhibit.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 12th page of the Exhibit P104, the

23 map marked by the witness in court, shall be assigned Exhibit P2241.

24 Thank you.

25 MR. VANDERPUYE: And what I'd like to do --

Page 14632

1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, thank you.

3 This section of the road that the witness marked is not an

4 asphalt road, and we did not see that the car rode along an un-asphalted

5 road. Thank you.

6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You may deal with that in your cross-examination,

7 Mr. Tolimir.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think this is important in terms

9 of admission.

10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You may deal with that in your cross-examination.

11 MR. VANDERPUYE: May I proceed, Mr. President?

12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes. Please go ahead.

13 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you.

14 Q. During the video that we saw, we can see General Mladic

15 referring -- or saying, rather, something to the effect - and we have the

16 subtitles - but something to the effect that, In the Podrinje, we

17 thrashed the Turks.

18 Now, the Podrinje, can you tell us what that is?

19 A. Yes. This is the area next to the Drina River, so where the Zepa

20 and Srebrenica enclaves are at the time.

21 Q. He says, at roughly 2 minutes, 35 or so, into the video, that if

22 it weren't for the Americans, or something to that effect, that the Turks

23 would have disappeared long ago. And in the context of this video, does

24 that refer to the Podrinje region that you've described?

25 A. Yes, correct.

Page 14633

1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I

3 apologise, but I have an objection again.

4 The witness is talking about the authenticity of the road and the

5 footage but not about the things that Mr. Vanderpuye is asking him about.

6 Thank you.

7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.

8 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.

9 Maybe I can clarify it, I think.

10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please.

11 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.

12 Q. Is the route that you indicated on the map in -- that we can see

13 the car navigating down in the video -- in the area of the Podrinje?

14 A. Yes, I believe it is.

15 Q. Okay. And in the context of the video, where General Mladic says

16 that if it weren't for the Americans, that the Turks would have

17 disappeared a long time ago, first, that occurs on the route that you've

18 described, doesn't it?

19 A. Yes, correct.

20 Q. And based on that, is that why you are saying that it relates

21 to -- or are you saying that his statement that the Turks would have

22 disappeared from these parts, or something to that effect, relates to the

23 Podrinje?

24 A. Correct.

25 Q. You also indicated in the photograph -- I'm sorry, the map that

Page 14634

1 you marked that they stopped, you said, at the 65th Protection Regiment.

2 And in the video footage we can see that they do stop at around

3 4 minutes, 35 seconds, and General Mladic describes it, I think, as a

4 battalion.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Is that what you're referring to?

7 A. Yes, correct. This is one of the battalions of the

8 65th Protection Regiment Base -- Protection Regiment.

9 Q. And how are you able to make that determination?

10 A. This is coming out of the investigation itself, and we obtained

11 this information from the witnesses we interviewed, that that was their

12 base or one of their battalions.

13 Q. And could you identify for the Trial Chamber, based on the

14 investigation, which battalion it would be, first, and, second, what the

15 source is of that information? If it's confidential, let us know,

16 obviously. But if you're able to do that, that would be helpful.

17 A. I might not be right regarding which battalion it is, but I think

18 it is the 2nd Battalion, 2nd Motorised Battalion. And these information

19 are coming from the commander of this regiment, Mr. Savcic, Milomir, who

20 will be coming here and testify; also his deputy, Malinic, Zoran. Those

21 are the two main sources, I think.

22 Q. All right. I'd like to show you one other bit of footage from

23 this.

24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, one question.

25 You have used 65 ter 6580, under seal. Are you tendering it or

Page 14635

1 did you already tender it? I don't remember.

2 MR. VANDERPUYE: No, I haven't tendered it. I didn't intend to

3 tender it, Mr. President.

4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.

5 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, I just was informed that there

7 might be a problem with two documents, 65 ter 5507, under seal, and one

8 part of 65 ter 7388, under seal, two videos. And I would like to know if

9 they are identical, or different, or different editions of the same; that

10 would clarify the situation. If you need to go into private session for

11 a clarification, we can do that.

12 MR. VANDERPUYE: I don't think so. I don't think I need to go

13 into private session.

14 5507 is an un-subtitled version and a complete -- the complete

15 footage which underlies 65 ter 7388. So 7388 is the only subtitled part

16 of that video footage, the totality of which is 5507.

17 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The Registrar made a proposal, how to deal with

19 the documents, and I need some further clarification.

20 65 ter 5507 is the same video-clip, under seal, as that part of

21 65 ter 7388, under seal, the part we have seen today. The first one,

22 5507, contains also a translation and a transcript. That means a

23 transcript and the respective translation of the transcript, but perhaps

24 not subtitles. We can't check that at the moment.

25 Our proposal would be to take that video under seal from 7388 and

Page 14636

1 put it on the same number 65 ter 5507 so that we can identify that part.

2 And the other parts of 7388 then could be dealt with as public documents.

3 I hope I could express myself understandably.

4 MR. VANDERPUYE: I see. That seems to make a lot of sense. If I

5 understand you correctly, it makes perfect sense.

6 I just want to point out, though, that 5507, as it is now,

7 contains much more footage than what's on 7388, but it seems to work out

8 just fine anyway if we simply supplant what's on 5507 with the clip here.

9 The only reason why I played 5507 to begin with was to place some context

10 to the clip which is 7388. It's less material. But if that works out

11 fine, then I think it's a great idea.

12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The first step, then, should be to withdraw the

13 clip we have seen, the confidential one, from 7388 and to combine it with

14 5507. Then we will decide about admission of this document.

15 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you very much, Mr. President. That is my

16 application.

17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This document will be received under seal. That

18 means 65 ter 5507, including the confidential part of 7388.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 5507 shall be

20 assigned Exhibit P2242, admitted under seal. Thank you.

21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.

22 Mr. Vanderpuye --

23 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.

24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: -- you are exceeding the time of two hours.

25 MR. VANDERPUYE: I'm aware of that. I have one other clip --

Page 14637

1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Go ahead, please.

2 MR. VANDERPUYE: -- that I'd like to play. It's from 65 ter 7388.

3 We can do this in open session. We'll need to play it from about 10:49.

4 It's four minutes long.

5 THE WITNESS: Can I just make one correction when we still have

6 this map on the screen, just a quick one?

7 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, please.

8 THE WITNESS: Because before, I wasn't sure regarding this route,

9 and now I think, because the letters are really slow, I now would like to

10 mark it again, just the second part of the route from the

11 65th Protection Regiment Base down.

12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We should have on the screen an unmarked version,

13 and you should mark it again.

14 THE WITNESS: Yes, indeed, I have this unmarked version in front

15 of me, and I will try to mark it.

16 Actually, the Maceha Hill - I'll mark it again - is here, and I

17 will put "M1." So they are going from 65th Protection down here,

18 actually, down this road here.

19 And then when Mladic is saying they are 300 metres away from the

20 enemy line, that corresponds to his statement, because they are really,

21 really close to the enemy line which is, in this case, this blue line.

22 And Maceha Hill is here [indicates], so this should be the

23 correct route from the 65th Protection down towards Godjenje.

24 MR. VANDERPUYE:

25 Q. All right. If you could, just put an arrow so we can see the

Page 14638

1 direction that they would be travelling on the video-clip.

2 A. Yes. First part of the road is here, arrow, they're coming,

3 arrow 1. And then the second part, they're coming down here, arrow

4 number 2.

5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And I take it you replaced the dotted line you

6 put on the first marked map by this line with the number 2.

7 THE WITNESS: Yes, correct.

8 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you.

9 I'd like to tender this as well, Mr. President.

10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the 12th page of Exhibit P104,

12 marked by the witness for the second time in court today, shall be

13 assigned Exhibit P2243. Thank you.

14 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. We'll need to go back to

15 65 ter 7388, and we'll play it from, yeah, just about here, 10.5 -- 10:50

16 through 14:15.

17 [Video-clip played]

18 MR. VANDERPUYE: We've stopped at 14:14.2.

19 Q. Mr. Janc, can you tell us about the provenance of this video?

20 A. We received this video -- I mean, the OTP received it in

21 April of 2002 from an individual, a citizen of Serbia. His name is

22 Petrusic, Jugoslav.

23 Q. What are you relying on for that information?

24 A. This information I obtained from the records in our database, in

25 the OTP database, regarding the source of this video.

Page 14639

1 Q. These records relate to -- or are they kept regularly?

2 A. Yes. They are in electronic format. You can access it in an

3 electronic way.

4 Q. And is there any requirement that you're aware of to make these

5 records upon the receipt of evidence or other documents from various

6 sources?

7 A. Yes. Every time the investigator sees or obtains any evidence,

8 it should be placed in Evidence Unit vault, accompanying with this kind

9 of information, electronic information data.

10 Q. And is this procedure -- is this a procedure that is routinely

11 followed and required to be followed by investigators in the course or

12 the context of handling evidence that's received from various sources?

13 A. Yes, it is, correct.

14 Q. Did you -- or can you recall the name of the investigator that

15 received this material that's indicated in this electronic record that

16 you consulted?

17 A. I believe it's Investigator Yves Roy. That's the one I believe,

18 but I'm not 100 per cent sure right now.

19 Q. Okay. But you, I take it, are able to confirm that one way or

20 another.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. All right.

23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, can you state, for the record, in

24 relation to the list of documents, what did we see between 10:5 and

25 10:50 -- 10:50 through 14:10?

Page 14640

1 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you very much, Mr. President. You're

2 right, I overlooked that.

3 Q. You're understood Mr. President's question. Could you please

4 answer it, Mr. Janc?

5 A. Yes. It's actually the footage of the first anniversary of the

6 existence of the 10th Sabotage Detachment, which was officially formed on

7 12th of October, 1994. And this is what was going on one year later, so

8 in October 1995. So the place of this celebration is Dragasevac, near

9 Vlasenica, and this is based on the information provided to us and the

10 testimony of Drazen Erdemovic.

11 Q. Did you see that -- rather, is Drazen Erdemovic actually featured

12 in this video footage?

13 A. Yes, he is featured, and he was also named in this footage.

14 Q. And could you just tell the Trial Chamber what is the

15 relationship of the 10th Sabotage Detachment to the Main Staff? What is

16 the relationship of that detachment to the location, Dragasevac, as

17 you've indicated?

18 A. One of their platoons was situated in Dragasevac. The other one

19 was in Bijeljina.

20 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay.

21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Mr. Vanderpuye is

23 once again trying to use this witness not only for identification, but

24 also to confirm contents and information that he already has from other

25 sources. Thank you.

Page 14641

1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, your statement.

2 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.

3 I'm only trying to assist the Court to understand the video

4 footage. I should point out something, though, which I think will be

5 helpful, which is that you have, in the trial record, the testimony of

6 Drazen Erdemovic, which I think you'll remember, and if not, you

7 certainly can consult with respect to the events that are depicted in

8 this video-tape. So I don't think that there's anything improper or

9 untoward about asking Mr. Janc to explain what the relationship is

10 between the Sabotage Detachment and the location where this footage

11 purports to have been shot.

12 And I think it's responsive to the question of authenticity.

13 Clearly, if it was shot in Warsaw, that might indicate that it was not an

14 authentic film. So it seems to me that it's appropriate and corresponds

15 to the scope of Mr. Janc's testimony here today.

16 I'm not sure if this is -- this hasn't been admitted, and so I

17 would tender it for that purpose. I should point out, though, that there

18 is footage that is not, as I understand it, subtitled that is already

19 admitted in evidence in this case. That is the same footage, once again.

20 So it's -- P234 and P235, under seal, correspond to this same footage.

21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.

22 Mr. Gajic.

23 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if my recollection is

24 correct, I think that this video footage, if not in its entirety, then at

25 least in part, it was shown during the testimony of

Page 14642

1 Witness Drazen Erdemovic, so all the questions being put to the witness

2 by the Prosecutor have already been looked into.

3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I remember very well that we have seen at least

4 part of that footage. I would like to read out the witness summary

5 provided by the OTP to the Defence and to the Chamber in this respect. I

6 quote:

7 "In addition to describing how the OTP obtained the video

8 footage, Mr. Janc will explain the events which are captured in the

9 videos and identify some of the relevant individuals recorded therein."

10 In relation to this, what is your objection, if you take this

11 into account?

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we don't have any

13 objections. Mr. Vanderpuye can proceed as he wishes, because all the

14 objections are just pro forma, they're not being taken into account.

15 Thank you.

16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, they are taken into account. We are

17 discussing the topic. I invited you to explain it further. If you don't

18 want to do that, that's fine.

19 We must have our second break now, and we will resume 20 minutes

20 past 6.00.

21 --- Recess taken at 5.51 p.m.

22 --- On resuming at 6.26 p.m.

23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, you indicated that you need two

24 hours. You have, up to now, used two hours and thirty-three minutes.

25 You should come to an end as soon as possible.

Page 14643

1 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.

2 I believe I am at the end. I just wanted to make sure that I

3 tendered the last video-clip that was shown from P2228, and I understand

4 the Trial Chamber has some information with respect to the status of that

5 exhibit.

6 I also wanted to let the Trial Chamber know that while I was

7 conducting the examination, I had mentioned, in private session, that the

8 Office of the Prosecutor had received certain information that warranted

9 proceeding in private session and also which was the basis for submitting

10 these exhibits under seal, and I received information while I was in

11 court, through e-mail, that those restrictions are not necessary. So

12 those documents don't need to be under seal. That's 5507 and --

13 65 ter 5507 and P2228 don't need to be under seal. And, further, to the

14 extent that there's future use of those documents, there's no concern for

15 displaying them publicly in e-court or discussing them publicly

16 otherwise.

17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I take it the Chamber can lift the

18 confidentiality of these two videos, these two documents, and of the

19 transcript in private session of today.

20 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, Mr. President, that's correct.

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We have had two private sessions today, and that

24 relates to both private sessions; is that correct?

25 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, the first one related to a

Page 14644

1 protected witness, so I think not with respect to that. But the second

2 one, yes.

3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You are correct.

4 The Chamber will lift the confidentiality of the two videos, and

5 the long part we dealt with these videos in private session may be public

6 now.

7 To clarify, the status of the two documents, 65 ter 5507 and

8 P2228, I think now there is no need to combine the two confidential parts

9 of that. They should remain as they are, as 65 ter 5507 and 65 ter 7388,

10 which is marked for identification as P2228; is that correct?

11 MR. VANDERPUYE: That is correct, Mr. President. Thank you.

12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Okay.

13 The document 65 ter 5507 is now in evidence as P2242, and the

14 other one is marked for identification, as we indicated earlier today,

15 pending receiving the transcript and the translation.

16 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.

17 With that, I've concluded my direct examination of Mr. Janc on

18 this issue.

19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.

20 Mr. Gajic.

21 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, just a short

22 introduction.

23 The Defence, before Mr. Tolimir commences his cross-examination,

24 we just want to say that we'll be discussing two topics. The first one

25 will be the videos that have just now been admitted into evidence. And

Page 14645

1 tomorrow, after we finish our cross-examination on that issue, we will

2 continue the cross-examination that was started about a year ago, and it

3 is in relation with a report by Mr. Janc on the DNA analysis. We will

4 inform the Chamber, of course, when we intend to move to the next -- to

5 the second topic.

6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Is there an agreement among the parties about

7 this kind of procedure?

8 Mr. Gajic.

9 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] I do believe so, Mr. President. If

10 you have had an opportunity to see the schedule for the week, you must

11 have seen that Mr. Janc would be testifying about, first of all, topics

12 that he had testified before, in the period of about more than a year

13 ago. We will continue the cross-examination in relation to that. And

14 the other part was something that was normally scheduled; namely, the

15 topics that were discussed today.

16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We have received the schedule for the witnesses

17 for this week, and there is mentioning for tomorrow re. exhumations and

18 cross-examination only. You are absolutely right. Thank you very much

19 for that. Thank you.

20 Mr. Tolimir, you may now commence your cross-examination.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

22 May God's peace reign in this house, and may God's will, not

23 mine, be done in these proceedings.

24 Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:

25 Q. [Interpretation] I want to extend my greetings to Mr. Janc and

Page 14646

1 wish him a welcome, and I would also like to ask him to answer several

2 questions of mine.

3 First of all, you were shown a video-recording dated

4 19th of July. On page 3, line 3, that's when it was admitted. And on

5 page 518 [as interpreted], there was discussion about Mr. Wood, who told

6 you all the information about VRS members who were present at the

7 meeting -- who had been present at the meeting. That was on page 5,

8 line 18.

9 And this is my question: Have you ever seen Major Indjic

10 personally? In other words, were you ever together with him, or is it

11 that all that you know about him was derived from video materials and

12 photos?

13 A. No, I have never seen him. I have never met him. All the

14 information about him is, indeed, from the investigation, from this kind

15 of material we have been watching today, which are the videos, different

16 statements, and other documents on him.

17 Q. Thank you, Mr. Janc. Was General Tolimir present in the footage

18 and was it clear that he was present at the meeting in Jela? Can he be

19 seen in the footage about the meeting in Jela? Thank you.

20 A. We can see you, General Tolimir, before the meeting, and we

21 stopped the footage at the point where the camera caught you. And this

22 is before the actual meeting or the signing of the agreement took place,

23 so when we can see General -- I mean Mr. Wood still printing out the

24 agreement. So at that point in time we can see you. But later on,

25 during the meeting, the signing of the agreement itself, no, we cannot

Page 14647

1 see yourself on the footage.

2 Q. Thank you, Mr. Janc. Could you please tell us whether

3 Mr. Tolimir can be clearly seen during the meeting or can we just see him

4 somewhere in this Restaurant Jela because it's possible that this film

5 was made at a different point in time? Have you seen any footage of

6 Tolimir in Restaurant Jela, apart from what we've seen?

7 A. This whole footage is going on inside Jela Restaurant. And when

8 we can see you on this footage, this is inside Jela Restaurant. It's

9 just before the actual meeting started with General Smith -- between

10 General Smith and General Mladic. So where we can see the signing of

11 agreement, we can't see you, but I can say that from Mladic's comments

12 and Mladic's speeches and talkings [sic] during this conversation to

13 General Smith, he's referring to you as well.

14 Q. Thank you. It is not important whether Tolimir was or was not

15 present there for the purpose of my question, but I would just like to

16 ask you whether one can see General Tolimir sitting together with

17 Generals Mladic and Smith at the time when the agreement was signed.

18 And, secondly, would it be logical for him to be there if he took part in

19 the agreement preparations? Thank you.

20 A. From this footage, we can't see yourself being -- sitting there,

21 but it doesn't mean that you were not there. Actually, it's just perhaps

22 the camera didn't catch you. But from the records, which is one of those

23 being the actual report of Lieutenant-Colonel Baxter, it's obvious that

24 you participated in this meeting.

25 Q. Thank you, Mr. Janc. Are you basing your testimony on written

Page 14648

1 information, predominantly, and transcripts of General Mladic's words, or

2 was the main source of recognition the video footage?

3 A. All of them are important, and I have taken into consideration

4 all of them. So if you put together all this information, there is no

5 doubt that you were there.

6 Q. Thank you, Mr. Janc. On page 12, line 4 and onwards, you were

7 shown video footage of Restaurant Jela of 20th of July when you

8 recognised General Milovanovic, and you will remember that. And my

9 question to you is: Was General Tolimir in front of the Jela Restaurant

10 on the 20th of July, 1995, or inside of it, and was he somewhere on the

11 footage? Thank you.

12 A. No, you are not on the footage. And according to information, we

13 have no information that you were -- that you participated in this -- on

14 this occasion. So you were not there.

15 Q. Thank you, Mr. Janc. Please tell us this now: Photographs and

16 video footage, are they the basis of your testimony in relation to what

17 transpired within Restaurant Jela, bearing in mind that you never got to

18 see the Restaurant Jela because it was destroyed before you first visited

19 the location where the restaurant had been? Thank you.

20 A. Yes, this is -- these footages are, indeed, very important

21 because Jela Restaurant doesn't exist anymore, nowadays, so we cannot

22 actually go there and check certain things. But not only the video

23 itself, I would say, is the main source. In addition to that, we have

24 several statements which the OTP obtained during the years which

25 corroborate these facts that this was, indeed, happening there.

Page 14649

1 Q. Thank you very much. As an investigator, are you testifying on

2 the basis of what you've read and what you've seen in video footage or do

3 you use something else as the basis of your testimony?

4 A. I would say it's a combination of everything, what I've seen on

5 the footage itself, what was discussed there, and as well what I was able

6 to read from the documents, statements, and different sources. So it's a

7 combination of everything.

8 Q. Thank you, Mr. Janc. On page 25 of the transcript, lines 10 and

9 onward, a document P740 was introduced. It was shown to you as well.

10 It's video footage of General Tolimir in civilian clothes. On page 27,

11 Mr. Vanderpuye asked you whether that was a segment from a documentary

12 called "Story about Avdo Palic," recorded for the television. On

13 page 24, you confirmed that, and you added that it wasn't a continuous

14 video footage, that it was edited material. Do you remember having said

15 that? Thank you.

16 A. Yes, I remember being asked about this topic, yes, if this is

17 continuation of the video or is it somehow edited.

18 Q. Thank you. Please tell us, have you seen the film which was used

19 to edit in the materials containing General Tolimir into the documentary

20 about Avdo Palic? Thank you.

21 A. No. The original video, which is actually shown on a television

22 and filmed by a camera for this documentary, we never obtained.

23 And let me clarify regarding editing issue. It's not that the

24 OTP edited anything. What we have been watching today is just what is on

25 the documentary itself. Everything what you can see on documentary have

Page 14650

1 been presented here in this courtroom today. In addition to that, we

2 also presented another video from another source, which we obtained from

3 the BiH authorities, which actually corroborates the first one.

4 So the OTP never edited anything into these videos. What we

5 presented is actually what we obtained and was ever on these videos, I

6 would say.

7 Q. Thank you, Mr. Janc. And that video footage that you received

8 from Bosnia and Herzegovina, is that continuous material or is it again

9 edited material of different situations? Thank you.

10 A. It's the same as previous ones so -- because it's coming from the

11 same source. And when I'm referring to the editing, it might be, most

12 probably, that the camera was filming not all the way along but at one

13 point it stopped and the cameraman started filming again. That's one

14 possible explanation. The other one would also be that when this film

15 was -- or this footage was taken by a camera, that it was going all

16 along, and when it was broadcasted on a TV, was edited by the television

17 itself, and that's what we were able to obtain, only what was broadcasted

18 on a television at that time.

19 Q. Thank you, Mr. Janc. On page 28, line 12, you spoke about this

20 documentary on Avdo Palic, and you told us that, We met a director who

21 referred us to the BH authorities, and we received from them a

22 longer segment of the events, including a segment that encompasses events

23 that took place on the 24th of July.

24 And this is my question to you: Do you, first of all, remember

25 saying this during the direct examination? Thank you.

Page 14651

1 A. Yes, I do remember. I would just like to clarify, I never met

2 the director. Our team was in contact with the director of this

3 documentary.

4 Q. [Microphone not activated]

5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. --

6 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Thank you, Mr. Janc. On page 28, you told us that it was sent to

8 the Prosecutor, this longer footage of events, including footage of

9 events recorded on the 24th of July where Tolimir can be seen wearing

10 civilian clothes; is that correct?

11 A. Yes, that's correct, that what we received in March this year

12 from the BiH authorities. And the segment which was on that video which

13 we received we have also seen today in this courtroom. So that's all

14 what they provided to us, the whole segment.

15 Q. Thank you. Did you talk to other sources and ask them whether

16 Tolimir was ever at the Boksanica Hill wearing civilian clothes, although

17 his senior officer was next to him in a uniform? Did you ask them that?

18 A. Actually, I never asked anyone regarding this particular issue,

19 and I'm sure that nobody from our team so far never asked anyone about

20 this issue.

21 Q. Thank you very much. In the footage where Tolimir is wearing

22 civilian clothes on Boksanica, did you notice, did you observe, there

23 that General Mladic is saying goodbye to everyone there, Kusic and all

24 the others, but not the person wearing civilian clothes? Did you notice

25 that?

Page 14652

1 A. I think he also greets Hamdija Torlak, who is also in civilian

2 clothes there.

3 Q. Thank you. But did he say goodbye, did he greet,

4 General Tolimir, as you say, who's wearing civilian clothes in the

5 footage?

6 A. No, this cannot be seen from this video.

7 Q. Thank you very much.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like for this footage to be

9 shown, starting with 20:29. This is document P740. This is OTP

10 evidence.

11 [Defence counsel confers]

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

13 If we cannot play that today, we'll do it tomorrow, because then

14 you will see images that we are discussing. My apologies to the

15 Trial Chamber and the Court.

16 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

17 Q. This is my following question: The segment -- the edited segment

18 of the Radio and TV of Bosnia and Herzegovina can be seen in both P740

19 and also in document --

20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We didn't catch the other

21 number.

22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, could you please repeat the number

23 of the second document.

24 Mr. Gajic.

25 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, P2240.

Page 14653

1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.

2 What is your question, Mr. Tolimir?

3 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President.

4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.

5 MR. VANDERPUYE: No question. We've just located the section of

6 the video, if General Tolimir wants to see it or to show it to the

7 witness.

8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That's very helpful. Thank you.

9 Is it possible to play it?

10 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We are grateful for your assistance, due to the

12 absence of the team member of Mr. Tolimir who is normally providing the

13 video. Thank you for that.

14 Mr. Tolimir.

15 [Video-clip played]

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, to avoid watching

17 the whole sequence, I would like to ask you to play only the last eight

18 or nine seconds, where people are saying goodbye to each other. 20:29,

19 and then we continue to 20:30. Thank you.

20 [Video-clip played]

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Vanderpuye.

22 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Did you observe -- did you see, now, General Mladic saying

24 goodbye to Mr. Tolimir, and can you tell us whether he greeted or said

25 goodbye to all the other participants in the meeting?

Page 14654

1 A. Yes, I have to admit I paid attention to this particular issue

2 for my first time now, and I see from this video that he wanted to greet

3 you but you didn't, for some reason, want to greet him. So -- at least

4 it's my understanding, so -- but he greets all the others, yes.

5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.

6 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.

7 I gather, from the direction of the cross-examination, that

8 General Tolimir disputes that this individual in the blue suit is him on

9 the video. If that's his position, I would ask that he put his case to

10 the witness to that effect, as is required under the Rules. And if it's

11 not his position, then I don't know the reason that we're belabouring the

12 point.

13 In addition, if it's his position that the video is somehow

14 forged or manipulated, I would ask that he put that to the witness as

15 well, because I think that is important and also required under the

16 Rules.

17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, this is not my understanding. He

18 was asking to interpret the situation of saying goodbye and shaking

19 hands. That's my understanding. But you may comment on that if you

20 want, Mr. Tolimir.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Vanderpuye.

22 I don't want to make any comments. Footage will talk for itself.

23 I'm asking the witness to give his comments, and whatever his answers

24 are, that will be relevant.

25 Let me repeat my question.

Page 14655

1 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

2 Q. In the segment of the film P740 that we have just seen, and in

3 the segment of the film that bears number P2240, do they both contain

4 edited segments received from the Sarajevo Television -- or, rather,

5 received from the Bosnian government?

6 A. I have to trust you now regarding the numbers, P numbers, so

7 that's my confusion right now, but if P740 is the one we've just seen and

8 P2240 is the one -- the documentary of Avdo Palic, then my answer would

9 be, yes, they are -- they have both this edited part in it.

10 Q. Thank you, Mr. Janc. Could you --

11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I'm very sorry, but it's just past 7.00. We must

12 adjourn for the day and we should resume tomorrow, and then you may

13 continue the questions about the editing of certain videos. And I assume

14 that will take some more time, that you can't finish this topic today.

15 Thank you for your understanding.

16 We must adjourn for the day, and we will resume tomorrow in the

17 afternoon, 2.15, in this courtroom.

18 We adjourn.

19 [The witness stands down]

20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.01 p.m.,

21 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 26th day

22 of May, 2011, at 2.15 p.m.