110704ED

Page 15996

1 Mr. Elderkin, you have the floor.

2 MR. ELDERKIN: Mr. President, thank you, and good afternoon to

3 Your Honours and everyone else in the courtroom.

4 Examination by Mr. Elderkin:

5 Q. And to you, Witness. Could I ask, as we discussed when we met

6 yesterday, that if it seems like we're going too fast, to try to speak at

7 a pace that the interpreters can keep up with.

8 And first of all, sir, please, could you say your full name?

9 A. Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon, General. Good

10 afternoon to the Prosecution.

11 My name is Mile Micic. And do you want me to say anything else?

12 Q. And your father's name, please?

13 A. My father's name is Marko.

14 Q. What's your date of birth?

15 A. 3rd November 1973. I was born in Zenica municipality in Bosnia

16 and Herzegovina.

17 Q. And you consider yourself to be of Serb ethnicity?

18 A. That's correct.

19 Q. Sir, have you had a chance this weekend to look over the

20 transcript of an interview that you gave to Prosecution investigators in

21 November of 2009?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. When you re-read your interview, did you identify any of your

24 answers that were not correctly transcribed?

25 A. There were a lot of grammatical errors. There were sentences

Page 15997

1 that did not convey the proper sense, but that was, more or less, that.

2 Q. And apart from those grammatical errors, are all the answers that

3 you gave during that interview accurate, to the best of your knowledge?

4 A. I did not understand your question. Could you please repeat?

5 Q. Are the answers recorded in the transcript accurate, in terms of

6 the substantive information that you gave during the interview?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And did you answer truthfully the questions that you were asked

9 during that interview?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. I'd like to ask briefly about your education and background, to

12 give the Court some sense of what happened in your life, before we move

13 to 1995.

14 First, could you tell us, briefly, what level of education you

15 received?

16 A. Elementary and secondary education in my native municipality.

17 The secondary school I attended was the School for Electricians, and that

18 was what I completed before 1981 -- 1991. Then the war started. My

19 education was thus interrupted, and I don't have any military education.

20 Q. And what's your current occupation, sir?

21 A. Currently, I'm a repairman. I repair electrical appliances in a

22 factory, or, rather, electrical machinery.

23 Q. Did you ever perform military service?

24 A. I didn't serve in the former JNA. I did my compulsory military

25 service in the VRS.

Page 15998

1 Q. What date did you start your military service in the VRS?

2 A. On the 8th of August, 1992.

3 Q. Did you serve in any particular VRS unit?

4 A. It was the 67th Communications Regiment.

5 Q. And did you receive any specialist training when you joined the

6 VRS?

7 A. I did not understand your question.

8 Q. Did you receive any specialist training beyond the training given

9 to every soldier who joined the VRS? Did you learn any specialist skill

10 or were you simply taught how to wear a uniform, to march, to fire a gun,

11 et cetera?

12 A. Besides the basic skills, I also had some training in

13 communications specific to that regiment. That training was very short

14 and didn't last more than a month.

15 Q. What place were you when you received that training in the

16 Communications Regiment?

17 A. That training was carried out in the Communications Regiment, and

18 its command was in Crna Rijeka.

19 Q. After you completed that training, did you continue to serve at

20 Crna Rijeka?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What were your duties, during the period after you completed

23 training, in 1992 through to, say, the end of 1994?

24 A. When I completed the training, I started driving the commander

25 and the deputy commander in my regiment.

Page 15999

1 Q. Can you tell us their names, if you remember?

2 A. The commander's name was Lieutenant-Colonel Gredo.

3 Q. And at some point, did you become the driver to General Tolimir?

4 A. That happened either in early 1995 or in mid-1995.

5 Q. Were you General Tolimir's driver before July of 1995?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And did you work full time as General Tolimir's driver once you

8 were assigned to him?

9 A. I didn't understand your question. Please repeat.

10 Q. Did you work only for General Tolimir, as his driver, once you

11 were assigned to him, or did you perform additional tasks or other duties

12 for the Communications Regiment at the same time?

13 A. I did not have any assignments or duties in the regiment. My

14 only task was to drive. And in this particular case, I drove the

15 general. And I was also supposed to carry out his orders, if there were

16 any forthcoming.

17 Q. Just to give us an idea of the work you did for General Tolimir,

18 can you tell us what kind of car or cars General Tolimir was using at

19 that time?

20 A. It was a small passenger vehicle, and there was also a jeep.

21 Q. And were you responsible for maintaining those vehicles, or you

22 simply would get in at the beginning of each day and do the driving, and

23 that's it?

24 A. My primary task was to drive. I also maintained the cars, making

25 sure that nothing happened either to me or to the general while I was

Page 16000

1 driving him around.

2 MR. ELDERKIN: I'd like to see, please, in e-court Exhibit P104,

3 at page 10, I think, in the e-court.

4 Q. So while this image is coming up: As you'll remember, we looked

5 yesterday at a simplified map, and I'd ask that when it comes on screen,

6 you'll tell me if you agree that it shows the main roads in the eastern

7 part of Republika Srpska.

8 If we could rotate 90 degrees to the right, please, and perhaps

9 you could zoom in first onto the top half and then scroll down after a

10 moment, just so the writing is a little clearer.

11 So are you able to make out the place names written on that map,

12 and do you agree that it's a version of the map we had a look at

13 yesterday?

14 A. Yes, you showed me this map yesterday.

15 Q. Okay. I'd like to leave that on screen while I move to July of

16 1995. It hopefully will help us as we talk through any of the trips we

17 discuss.

18 You told us you were General Tolimir's driver starting at some

19 point in 1995, before July. Thinking now to July 1995, do you recall on

20 what date Srebrenica was captured?

21 A. I only heard in the media that that happened on the 12th of July.

22 Q. Why do you remember that particular date, the 12th of July?

23 A. On that day, on the 12th of July, it was an important date for me

24 because it is my Name Day celebration. Every person of Orthodox belief

25 has such a day in a year. For me, it's the 12th of July. That's why I

Page 16001

1 remember it so well.

2 Q. Were you with General Tolimir on the 12th of July, 1995?

3 A. In the statement that I provided to you, I said that I remember

4 that on the 12th of July, we went to Bijeljina and back.

5 Q. To be clear for the record on this trial, because we haven't got

6 your statement in evidence before the Court, you say: "We went to

7 Bijeljina and back." Who do you mean by "we," please?

8 A. General Tolimir and myself.

9 Q. So starting from the beginning of that day, can you tell us what

10 you and General Tolimir did that day? Tell us about this trip to

11 Bijeljina that you just mentioned. Where did you start from and how did

12 you travel?

13 A. I don't know the exact time when we departed. We did not have

14 any problems getting to Bijeljina. We arrived there. The general had

15 some commitments over there. I don't know what those commitments were.

16 It was not my duty to know. My duty was only to transport the general to

17 the place where he told me to take him and to await further instructions.

18 On that same day, we returned to Crna Rijeka.

19 Q. You say you went to Bijeljina, and Bijeljina is a town. Was

20 there a specific location in the town, a military location, or another

21 facility that you went to on General Tolimir's order?

22 A. I believe that I took him to the Security Department of the

23 East Bosnia Corps.

24 Q. When you arrived at the Security Department at the

25 East Bosnia Corps, what happened?

Page 16002

1 A. The general, I suppose, had a meeting. I don't know what. And I

2 was waiting for him in a room which was a dedicated room for the drivers.

3 That's where I usually waited for him. And he finished whatever he was

4 doing, he came to me and he said, Let's go back.

5 Q. Were there any other drivers waiting with you in that room for

6 their bosses to attend the same meeting? Do you know who else was at

7 that meeting?

8 A. I don't know who else attended the meeting. I believe that only

9 a soldier, whose duty was to make coffees, was in that same room with me.

10 MR. ELDERKIN: If we could look at the map that we had on the

11 screen a moment ago, if that's still available.

12 Q. And so if we can scroll up the map, you see the red triangle in

13 the centre. Hopefully that will come back in a second.

14 MR. ELDERKIN: Carrying on scrolling down a little further,

15 please. That's good.

16 Q. Sir, do you see, in the centre bottom of the picture, a red

17 triangle marking Crna Rijeka? Do you see that?

18 A. Yes, yes.

19 Q. Could you tell us if the roads shown on this map, going up

20 through Han Pijesak, then Vlasenica, Milici, past Zvornik, and then if we

21 scroll further north, up along the river through Janja and up to

22 Bijeljina, is that the route that you followed to go up for the meeting

23 in Bijeljina on the 12th of July or was there another route that you

24 followed?

25 A. That's the only road that was passable at the time.

Page 16003

1 Q. And you told us after the meeting, you travelled back from

2 Bijeljina to Crna Rijeka. Did you follow that same route back, as you

3 say it's the only route passable at the time?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did you stop somewhere on the way back?

6 A. I've already stated that we may have had a very short break in

7 Vlasenica, perhaps a few minutes. I don't know exactly how long we

8 stopped for, but it couldn't have been long.

9 Q. So where in Vlasenica did you stop? Again, it's a town. Did you

10 stop at a military facility, some other place in Vlasenica? Please be

11 specific.

12 A. We stopped in front of the corps command building.

13 Q. Sir, after the 12th of July, for the rest of that month, do you

14 remember any other specific dates or the events of any other specific

15 dates on which you drove General Tolimir?

16 A. I don't remember the date.

17 Q. Okay. Well, without trying to establish specific dates, in which

18 area were you driving General Tolimir during the rest of that month,

19 which part of the country?

20 A. One day, we travelled to Zepa -- actually, to one part of the

21 area between Rogatica and Zepa. However, I can't remember what date was

22 that.

23 Q. And I don't want to ask you about trying to establish a specific

24 date if you can't remember that.

25 MR. ELDERKIN: But I would like to, please, have in e-court

Page 16004

1 page 12 of the same exhibit, P104.

2 If you could scroll down a little bit, please. I think like --

3 like that is good. Thank you.

4 Q. So do you remember looking also at this map we have on the screen

5 now when we met yesterday?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. There are various locations marked on this map, showing the area

8 from Han Pijesak down to Rogatica. And as you can see, some of the place

9 names are mentioned in English, but they all have the town, or village

10 name, or another designation in the label which I hope you can

11 understand.

12 If we can look at the map in the area from Zepa and perhaps just

13 further south from there, if we can scroll slightly further down.

14 Sir, can you recall travelling to locations in this area when you

15 say you went to Zepa sometime in July of 1995? And, specifically, we can

16 see the locations marked there as "Boksanica Check-Point," "Borike IKM,"

17 and also "Borike Villa." Did you go to any of these locations in July of

18 1995?

19 A. Yes. That was the Boksanica check-point. That's where we were.

20 Q. And you said: "That's where we were." Just to be clear for the

21 trial record, by "we," do you mean yourself and General Tolimir?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did you spend any nights away from Crna Rijeka, in this area,

24 during July of 1995?

25 A. I don't understand your question. Please repeat.

Page 16005

1 Q. Did you stay at any location in this area, in the Borike area and

2 Boksanica area, with General Tolimir or close by to General Tolimir

3 during July of 1995?

4 A. By the Boksanica check-point, that's where the general and myself

5 spent a few days. I don't know how many days.

6 Q. Do you know of a place that's called here the Borike Villa? Have

7 you heard of that place?

8 A. Is that a place or is that a feature or facility, Villa Borike?

9 I've never heard of any such thing before. What is that?

10 Q. Do you know of a villa that used to be the property of, I think,

11 Dzemal Bijedic located at Borike, a house, like a country house by a

12 forest and by some open plains near the Borike Horse Farm?

13 A. There was a building there. I don't know what it was called or

14 who it belonged to.

15 Q. Was it some kind of villa or country house?

16 A. A building of some sort a bit more elaborate than just a normal,

17 ordinary house. A bit more luxurious, as far as I can remember.

18 Q. Did General Tolimir, to your knowledge or recollection, spend any

19 nights at that location while you were in the area in July of 1995? Did

20 he sleep there?

21 A. In one of the buildings, perhaps in that building - I don't

22 remember - if memory serves me well, I think that we did spend one night

23 in that building.

24 Q. Did you, yourself, sleep in the building or did you, as the

25 driver, sleep somewhere else?

Page 16006

1 A. I spent that one evening in one of the buildings there. I'm not

2 sure if that was the one or not.

3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I interrupt you for a moment, Mr. Elderkin.

4 Could you please describe the buildings, if you seen there, as

5 you just indicated, at least more than one building; for instance, the

6 size, the colour, and which they belonged to each other? Could you

7 describe them?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I said there was one building,

9 as far as I remember, and I can't remember exactly how it looked. I

10 can't remember any of the details. Perhaps it was a little -- its

11 condition was a little better than the condition of an ordinary house

12 would have been at the time, and that's about as much as I can remember.

13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: What do you think when this building, this house,

14 was built, in which time-period?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Certainly before the war, I can't

16 say exactly.

17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Before which war?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The war that broke out in 1992 in

19 BH territory.

20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Was it built in the 19th century, or the 20th

21 century, before or after the Second World War?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not sure if I'm able to answer

23 this question. Probably after World War II, but I don't know when

24 exactly.

25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Do you recall how many buildings were in these

Page 16007

1 premises or nearby?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think just the one building. I

3 can't remember any others.

4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.

5 Mr. Elderkin, please proceed.

6 MR. ELDERKIN: Thank you.

7 Q. Sir, do you remember which vehicle you were driving during this

8 time you spent in the Borike and Boksanica area with General Tolimir?

9 A. Given the lay of the land, it was a jeep vehicle we were using, a

10 Mercedes vehicle built specially for hilly terrain like that.

11 Q. This Mercedes jeep, was it fitted out for military use?

12 A. It was the kind of car used by the former JNA, and it was now in

13 the VRS.

14 Q. Did it have any kind of communications capability, any kind of

15 radio communication capability?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Sir, during the same month, July 1995, did you ever go down into

18 Zepa town?

19 A. Yes, once. I can't remember the date or the exact time.

20 Q. Who did you go with?

21 A. General Tolimir.

22 Q. What did you do with General Tolimir down in Zepa town? Did you

23 spend some time there or drive down and return immediately?

24 A. I drove the general there. I waited up, perhaps half an hour or

25 thereabouts, and then we drove back.

Page 16008

1 Q. Was the Muslim population still in Zepa while you were down

2 there?

3 A. Yes, some were still around; I'm not sure if all of them.

4 Q. And what were they doing?

5 A. Could you please repeat that? I'm not sure if I'm clear about

6 what it means.

7 Q. The Muslim population, the people you observed in Zepa town while

8 you were there, what were they doing? Were they preparing to leave?

9 Were they simply going about their daily lives?

10 A. They certainly weren't pursuing their day-to-day activities.

11 Were they preparing to leave? I can't say, really.

12 Q. Did you witness any convoy leaving Zepa to take the Muslim

13 population to other parts of Bosnia?

14 A. Yes, I did see one of those convoys with citizens leaving the

15 area. It took them an awfully long time to leave the area, given the

16 conditions that prevailed at the time, and the road was in very poor

17 condition. There was some buses that would break down along the road,

18 things like that.

19 Q. Did you play any part in travelling with this convoy? Tell us

20 about what you remember.

21 A. Well, I had no part to play in that. My only task was to wait

22 and to carry out any orders by the general, drive him places whenever

23 that was required, and that was the only job I did.

24 Q. Where did you drive when you left Zepa town?

25 A. I'm not sure I understand the question. Where, when I left Zepa?

Page 16009

1 Q. Did you ever drive from Zepa to the confrontation line?

2 A. As far as I remember, from Zepa we went back to the check-point,

3 and that's where we stayed.

4 Q. Sir, I'd like to ask you about accompanying or leading a convoy

5 from Zepa to the confrontation line. Do you remember talking about that

6 subject in the interview that you reviewed yesterday?

7 A. I remember that one occasion, I believe. I was driving a car.

8 General Tolimir was in it and another person. I don't know who. In my

9 opinion, we were at the head of the column, I think the second car at the

10 head, preceded by the police at the head and the tail of the column

11 securing the column. So we were the number-two car in that column. My

12 task or my role - at least that is my opinion - was to go all the way to

13 the end of that route so that this person who was driving with us would

14 make sure that the convoy got through safe and that everyone would be

15 fine as they were on their way through RS territory.

16 Q. When you got to the end of that route, where did you return

17 afterwards? I assume you didn't stay at the edge of RS territory.

18 A. Again, again, as far as the confrontation line. When the people

19 or population left, we drove back to Boksanica, the check-point.

20 Q. Did you make this journey to the confrontation line and back only

21 one time or on more than one occasion?

22 A. I don't remember exactly whether it was once or twice. At any

23 rate, it wasn't more than that.

24 MR. ELDERKIN: Okay, sir. Thank you very much.

25 Those are all the questions that I have, and I put myself in the

Page 16027

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

2 Could we please have page 7 of the Serbian and page 8 of the

3 English so that everyone is able to follow.

4 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

5 Q. We see here Attorney Petrusic saying "Zvornika Brigada" had a

6 single military police company. And then your answer is: "Yes."

7 And then the question is:

8 "Who was in command of that military police contingent?"

9 And then Mihajlo Galic answers:

10 "The military police commander, and you see this unit was

11 directly subordinate to the security organ."

12 He goes on to say:

13 "Hence, we may conclude and move this to the level of the

14 personnel issue; that the company commander was Miomir Jasikovac in July

15 1995, while his superior officer along this line of command was

16 Drago Nikolic."

17 And your answer is: "That's right."

18 My question to you, sir, is this: Do you know who was

19 Jasikovac's superior, and who had the authority to issue orders to

20 Jasikovac? Thank you.

21 A. The company commander. The commander, the chief of staff, or the

22 security chief could have issued an order to the commander of the

23 Military Police Company.

24 Q. Thank you. What you just said, is that in keeping with the rules

25 on the use of the military police? Thank you. ^

Page 16028

1 A. General, sir, I answer to the best of my ability and knowledge.

2 Q. Thank you. Thank you for what you said. Do you know who

3 exercises command over a military police unit that is part of a brigade?

4 Who writes up its assessment? Who punishes them? Who rewards them? You

5 were a personnel officer, so would this happen, Drago Nikolic or anyone

6 else?

7 A. All the units within the brigade are under the brigade commander.

8 Nevertheless, the chief of security is the person or the officer who

9 works closely with the military police, as far as I know, and he gets

10 military policemen to perform all sorts of tasks; security, escort

11 control, arresting people, securing a compound, military barracks, that

12 sort of thing. That's as far as I know.

13 Q. Thank you. A while ago when I read that thing in closed session,

14 did you not see that Mr. Nikolic was demanding that Mr. Obrenovic place

15 at his disposal Mr. Jasikovac and a component of the military police? Do

16 you remember that?

17 A. Yes, I remember that, and I remember that the unit was already

18 engaged in combat at that point in time, if my understanding is correct.

19 Q. Thank you. Did you see that later on in that conversation, he

20 said, I'll think about it, when the other man wants to have at least a

21 part of that unit, and then he says, I'll think about it.

22 So my question is: First of all, did you hear that, when

23 Obrenovic told Nikolic, I'll think about it, whether I'll give you at

24 least a part of that unit?

25 A. Yes, I heard that from you because you read it back to me. It

Page 16029

1 really depends on what each of them were busy doing at the time, so

2 that's probably why he phrased the remark the way he did, but not that

3 I'd know about it.

4 Q. Thank you. If Drago Nikolic had been in command of that unit,

5 would he have asked permission from Obrenovic or would he have done as he

6 saw fit?

7 A. Some of the activities performed within the military police

8 company, I know that Drago Nikolic deployed those people outside the

9 barracks, inside the barracks, getting them there, sending them

10 elsewhere. Did he do that of his own initiative or with someone's

11 approval is not something that I'm aware of.

12 Q. Thank you. Was it perhaps the commander who ordered him to

13 deploy these people, in keeping with an order by the commander, himself?

14 Is this something that you're aware of?

15 A. No, I'm not aware of that, General, sir.

16 Q. Thank you. Do you know that a commander commands the military

17 police, they are directly subordinate to him, just like in the case of

18 battalion commanders in other units that are part of a brigade? Do you

19 know that? You were a personnel officer, after all. That's why I'm

20 asking. Thank you.

21 A. As a matter of principle, all the units are linked to the

22 commander, and the commander commands these units, but there are probably

23 some situations when the authorities shift. I'm not familiar with the

24 rules governing the work of the military police, and I'm not privy to all

25 the nuts and bolts of how this actually worked.

Page 16030

1 Q. Thank you. I understand that you don't understand. It's not

2 your job. There is stuff that we don't know about your work.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But can we please now look at

4 P1297, which is the rules governing the work of the military police.

5 It's about to come up on the screen. This is the rules governing

6 the work of the military police in the Armed Forces of the SFRY.

7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, are you tendering the previous

8 document?

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Certainly, Mr. President.

10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: 1D915 will be received as an exhibit.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 1D915 shall be

12 assigned Exhibit D294. Thank you.

13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: At this point in time, I would like to draw your

14 attention to another problem. The testimony of the witness in the

15 Popovic case was -- these transcripts were already assigned with P

16 numbers, but I give the floor to the Registrar to have it on the record.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, with your leave, the transcript of

18 Mihajlo Galic's testimony in the Popovic et al case, dated 25th to 27th

19 April, 2007, was already assigned two exhibit numbers, one to the

20 confidential version, P1105, and P01106 to the public redacted version of

21 the transcript.

22 Further to that, exhibit numbers assigned today, namely, P2436,

23 under seal, to the 65 ter document 6564, and P2437 to the 65 ter document

24 6565, shall be removed, to be assigned to some other Prosecution

25 documents yet to be tendered. In light of this correction,

Page 16031

1 Exhibit P2438 that was assigned to the 65 ter document 7091 will also be

2 assigned to another document at a later stage.

3 At this point, Exhibit P2436 will be reassigned to the 65 ter

4 document 7091. Thank you, Your Honours.

5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you for this correction.

6 Sir, I would like to remind you again, if you need a break,

7 please let us know. Otherwise, Mr. Tolimir will continue.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We may continue, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, you have the floor again.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

11 Could we please now have the title of these rules so the witness

12 can see it. Thank you. Page 2 in e-court in the English.

13 Could we please now look at item 12 or paragraph 12, which is

14 page 13 in the Serbian and page 10 in the English - thank

15 you - paragraph 12. Thank you.

16 Could we please go to page 9 in the Serbian. This is page 20.

17 Nothing for us there. Paragraph 12 of the rules. Thank you. That's

18 Chapter 2. Thank you very much.

19 Could you please zoom in a little so the witness can see.

20 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Sir, I'm about to quote, for your benefit, paragraph 12 of these

22 rules. Before that, let me ask you: Do you know if, in your brigade of

23 the VRS, the rules for the former JNA were, indeed, used? Thank you.

24 A. Yes, I think so. There were no other rules that we could use, at

25 least not as far as I know.

Page 16032

1 Q. Thank you for this answer.

2 Please have a look at paragraph 12. Chapter 2, "The Command and

3 Control of the Military Police," that is the heading. Number 12 reads:

4 "The officer in charge of the military unit, and institution

5 within whose establishment the military police unit is placed or to which

6 it is attached, commands and controls the military police."

7 My question: Who would be the officer in charge of the military

8 police, in keeping with paragraph 12 of these rules? Thank you.

9 A. Based on this, based on what you read out in paragraph 12, it

10 would be the most senior brigade commander. But, again, I have to stress

11 this: I find myself analysing these rules and instructions governing the

12 work of the military police. I've never read this previously, nor,

13 indeed, was I at any point in time familiar with this. It's very

14 difficult for me to address anything at all in relation to this set of

15 rules that I was never familiar with, to begin with. The evidence that I

16 provided was based on my impressions of how things worked at the time

17 back in 1992 -- 1991 through 1995.

18 Q. Thank you. I apologise to you, sir, but given your statement,

19 the statement that we have just quoted, saying that Drago Nikolic was in

20 command, I wish to ask you now this, sir: Under the rules, could the

21 commander have been Drago Nikolic or would it have had to be the brigade

22 commander? Thank you.

23 A. Based on what we see on the screen, no. But then whenever

24 there's a rule, there must be an exception too, so this was probably one

25 of those occasional exceptions where someone had to be in command,

Page 16033

1 regardless of what the rules actually said. I'm not sure if my

2 understanding is correct, but this is what the rules say.

3 Q. We'll get to those exceptions. Thank you very much.

4 Let's move on to paragraph 13 to see whether that constitutes an

5 exception:

6 "With respect to specialty, the officer in charge of the security

7 body of the unit or institution within whose establishment the military

8 police unit is placed or to which it is attached controls the military

9 police. He makes suggestions to the officer in charge of the military

10 unit or institution on the use of military police units and is

11 responsible for the combat readiness of the military police unit and the

12 performance of their tasks."

13 End of quote. My question: Based on the provisions of

14 paragraph 13, the commander remains the same, but the security organ

15 makes suggestions on the use of the military police units; is that what

16 the rules say?

17 A. It's not up to me to change the rule I see before my very eyes,

18 and I can't change what I'm looking at.

19 Q. Thank you. Can we go to paragraph 2 of Article 13:

20 "When controlling a military police unit, the officer in charge

21 of the security body," from the first paragraph of this article, from

22 paragraph 1 of this item, "has the same rights and duties which the

23 officers of arms services of military units and institutions have in

24 controlling the units of arms and services."

25 My question: Did Drago Nikolic have the same rights as the

Page 16034

1 chief -- the various chiefs, the artillery chief, the engineers chief,

2 the signals chief, or were his rights any different under these

3 provisions of this article.

4 A. General, sir, I simply don't know. I'm simply unable to

5 interpret these rules, and it follows that I don't know how to answer

6 your question as to whether he had the same rights or different rights.

7 Q. Thank you very much. I understand you. As a personnel officer

8 working in a brigade, did you know who exercised command over whom and

9 who was who else's superior officer?

10 A. I was familiar with the organisation chart of the brigade. I

11 knew what the links were between people, but I can't be more specific

12 about any details.

13 Q. Thank you. What about those charts that you used? Was there a

14 link between the military police commander and the brigade commander or

15 the military police commander and the chief of staff?

16 A. Sir, General, it wasn't my chart. I just looked at it several

17 times, but I wasn't the one who produced it or anything like that.

18 Q. Thank you. Could you please tell us this: What about the

19 personnel organ; did it have a working chart listing all the assistant

20 commanders and all the lower-ranking commanders that were directly in

21 touch with the overall commander? Thank you.

22 A. The personnel unit had the brigade's establishment chart. We had

23 all the records, and those were the documents that we had. I'm not sure

24 what to call it.

25 Q. Thank you. What did the establishment chart say? Were the links

Page 16035

1 drawn there between who was -- as to who was directly in touch with whom?

2 A. I don't remember specifically, but I think that the number of

3 people in the command, in the units, in terms of their military

4 specialties, in terms of their ranks, were all there, and that's how it

5 was regulated. Each unit had a certain number of this, a certain number

6 of that, a certain number of men. I was only interested in the number of

7 men because that's what my records were about, the ones that I was

8 keeping, but I didn't know about the links between these people.

9 Q. Thank you very much. As it was you who would deliver to the

10 commander for signature proposals or decisions regarding promotions --

11 or, rather, did you do that? When someone else was promoted to a higher

12 rank or a higher position, did you submit those documents for signature

13 to the commander, and how exactly did you do that? Can you tell the

14 Trial Chamber, please?

15 A. When officers were promoted under the brigade commander, the

16 brigade commander would be in charge of that. Whenever there was

17 something that was wasn't within his remit, it would be left to the

18 superior commands; the corps command, for example. Therefore, as far as

19 I remember, this was broken up for officers, for NCOs, and a different

20 procedure applied in each of these cases. I think the officers were

21 under their superior commands -- under the brigade commander and the NCOs

22 under their superior commands. That's as much as I can say.

23 Q. Do you remember who made the proposals for these promotions to a

24 higher rank or a higher position? Who was in charge of the proposals?

25 Thank you.

Page 16036

1 A. As far as I can remember, it was the units who made those

2 proposals based on the results of work.

3 Q. Thank you. Since the units proposed that, tell me, who was in

4 charge of promotions for commanders of independent units in the brigade?

5 And could you also tell us which of the independent units existed in the

6 brigade?

7 A. Proposals for the promotion of the officers of independent units,

8 I assume that it came -- they came from the chief of staff to the

9 commander. And as for the independent units within the brigade, those

10 were battalions, the Military Police Company, the Engineers Company and

11 the Communications Company, as far as I can remember. It was a long time

12 ago, so I'm not entirely sure that that was indeed the case.

13 Q. Thank you. It was, indeed, the way you have just told us. You

14 have just mentioned a military police company. Was it directly linked to

15 the brigade commander as an independent unit in the brigade? Thank you.

16 A. All units were linked to the brigade commander, all units. And

17 if we follow that analogy, then the answer would be, Yes. However, there

18 were exceptions. I remember that the Military Police Company was also

19 linked to the chief of security, according to the schematic. That's how

20 it was supposed to be. I don't know whether that was, indeed, the case,

21 whether it was really true or not.

22 Q. Thank you. Did you show that schematic to the lawyers, or the

23 Prosecutor, or the Judges when you testified? Was that schematic

24 presented, as such, to corroborate your words?

25 A. I don't know. I don't have that schematic. I never had it.

Page 16037

1 Q. Please, this is a tribunal. It's very important for the

2 Trial Chamber to know whether the military police was an independent

3 unit, subordinated to the commander, or was it subordinated to somebody

4 else. This is a tribunal. It's very important for you to remember and

5 to tell us, if you can.

6 A. I can only remember that all units were the commander's

7 responsibility. The commander was responsible for all the units. That's

8 as much as I know. Anything else I would tell you, I would go beyond

9 that way of thinking, because the commander was responsible for all.

10 Q. Thank you. Let's look at the bullet point 13 that you see on the

11 screen, where it says:

12 "The military police, in professional terms, is controlled by the

13 officer of the security organ of the military unit or institution on

14 whose strength it exists."

15 Does the security organ command or control the military police

16 unit? There is a big difference there.

17 A. This is what it says. I can't change that. I don't know it. I

18 can't change anything, if that's what it says here.

19 Q. Thank you. Do you know what control, in professional terms, is,

20 and does it differ from the function of command when we talk about the

21 military police?

22 A. The terms "control" and "command," I don't know what the two mean

23 exactly. I don't know the difference between "control" and "command." I

24 don't know whether the two are the same or not. When it says, with

25 respect to speciality, the officer in charge of the security body of the

Page 16038

1 unit or institution within whose establishment the military police unit

2 is placed controls the military police, I can't explain that. I don't

3 know the difference between "control" and "command."

4 Q. Since you're not in a position to do that, can you look at bullet

5 points 12 and 13, and can you conclude who is it who commands, on the one

6 hand, and who is it who controls?

7 A. I can only read what it says in here. According to bullet point

8 12, it says here that:

9 "The officer in charge of the military unit and institution

10 within whose establishment the military police unit is placed or to which

11 it is attached commands and controls ..."

12 And then in bullet point 13, it just mentions controls. These

13 two things obviously are different. There is a distinction, but I'm not

14 aware of it. It's very difficult for me to make a distinction between

15 bullet point 12 and bullet point 13. Really, I'm not in a position to do

16 that.

17 Q. Thank you. My question is this: Bullet point 12 speaks about

18 command. Does bullet point 13 speak only about professional control or

19 does it also speak about command? Thank you.

20 A. Bullet point 12 speaks about command and control, whereas bullet

21 point 13 speaks about specialty and professional control, as far as I can

22 tell.

23 Q. Thank you. There's no need to belabour that point. Let's look

24 at P1111, which is a document that you, yourself, drew up in your

25 previous testimony.

Page 16039

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to call up P1111.

2 Thank you.

3 Can this be zoomed in a little. Thank you. Thank you.

4 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Did you draw this up yourself, this schematic?

6 A. No, I didn't draw it up. It was readily available and made

7 available to me. I only entered the names of people who discharged

8 certain duties. Somebody asked me to do that.

9 Q. And is this schematic correct or not?

10 [Defence counsel confer]

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really can't answer whether it is

12 correct or not. This was given to me to fill out.

13 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

14 Q. And now look at where it says "Staff" and then "Chief of Staff."

15 And you indicate that the Military Police Company was also under his

16 command. Is that correct or not?

17 A. I did not understand you. What are you asking me? Below the

18 "Chief of Staff," what?

19 Q. Yes. Do you see a list of subordinated assistants, headed by

20 you, and does the second column also display the Military Police Company

21 and so on and so forth?

22 A. Yes, I can see the "Military Police Company" here, but I'm

23 looking at the following page as well or the other part of the page.

24 Q. Could you please encircle, in red pen, where you see the

25 "Military Police Company"? Was it subordinated to the chief of staff or

Page 16040

1 not? In other words, is this correct or not?

2 A. I don't know whether this correct or not.

3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please wait a moment. The Court Usher will

4 assist you.

5 You were asked to encircle the words "Military Police Company."

6 THE WITNESS: [Marks] There in two places, here and

7 here [indicates].

8 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.

9 Q. Since you have encircled the "Military Police Company" on the

10 right-hand-side, is this your handwriting where it says the "Military

11 Police Company" and "Jasikovac"?

12 A. Yes, this is my handwriting, and at that moment I thought that

13 that was how things had been.

14 Q. Thank you. Could you please put number 1 next to the Cyrillic

15 upper-case "Military Police Company" and number 2 to the same words

16 handwritten by you?

17 A. [Marks]

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now -- no, no. No, no. Can

19 we scroll up to see who signed this schematic?

20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: No, this is not possible. If you move it, you

21 will lose the markings.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23 Can this be admitted? And then we will move the page.

24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This marked scheme will be received as an

25 exhibit.

Page 16045

1 you.

2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I hope we have now resolved all problems with

3 numbering and others.

4 This witness should be brought in again, please.

5 [The witness takes the stand]

6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Welcome back to the courtroom, sir. Sorry for

7 the delay. We had to deal with some procedural matters again.

8 Mr. Tolimir is continuing his cross-examination.

9 Mr. Tolimir, you have the floor.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

11 Mr. Gajic [as interpreted], please, let's look at P1111 again.

12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think you're right, Mr. Gajic. The current

13 witness is Mr. Galic.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

15 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Mr. Galic, we're looking at the schematic, and let's keep it as

17 it is. Let's not move anything until we have explored this in detail.

18 You tied only the battalions to the commander, the

19 Rear Battalion, the Engineers, and the Communications Battalion.

20 Everything else, according to you, was linked with the chief of staff;

21 right?

22 A. The horizontal line, the "Staff" and the rest, I suppose that

23 this means this is a line that goes all the way to the commander, that

24 everything is linked to the commander and everybody else, because there

25 is a common line. That's at least what I think.

Page 16046

1 Q. And my next question, sir: Did you also think that the

2 Military Police Company's linked to the chief of staff? Is that what you

3 meant?

4 A. It says here that they were linked to the chief of staff.

5 Q. Thank you. Was it, indeed, the case? Was the company linked to

6 the chief of staff or to the commander, as you just said it yourself?

7 A. All units are linked to the commanders. I've already told you.

8 Q. So is this a mistake, then. Was a mistake made when the

9 Military Police Company was shown as being linked to the chief of staff?

10 Did that unit report together with you?

11 A. Did it report together -- what?

12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please stop. Pause between question and answer.

13 We didn't get the answer yet. Please put the question again, and then

14 the witness may answer, but please pause.

15 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Mr. Galic, could you please tell us, did you go to morning

17 briefings to the chief of staff or to the commander? Thank you.

18 A. To both, both the commander and the chief of staff.

19 Q. Thank you. And can you please tell us: Why did you show the

20 military police as attending briefings in the chief of staff's office?

21 Why did you show them as being subordinated to the chief of staff?

22 A. General, sir, I don't see a reference to any briefings. This is

23 not to show how briefings were organised. I didn't know any better at

24 the moment when I drew this up. I did it to the best of my abilities at

25 the time according to what I knew.

Page 16047

1 Q. Thank you. When it comes to briefings, are briefings organised

2 by the superior officers; i.e., does a subordinate report to a superior?

3 A. Yes, a subordinate reports to his superior.

4 Q. Please, can you tell us: Who did the commander of the military

5 police company report to? Thank you.

6 A. I don't know. I wouldn't know.

7 Q. Thank you. Please, let's look at this schematic, at the words

8 that you added by hand. You put the Military Police Company as being

9 linked to the chief of security. Can you see that in the third vertical

10 column, or the fourth, rather? Can you tell us whether the chief -- or,

11 rather, whether the Military Police Company can be linked to both the

12 commander and the chief of security? Thank you.

13 A. It doesn't appear to be logical in this particular chart, but the

14 idea was the chief of security was someone that the unit was with all the

15 time, and he was with the units, and vice versa. So that's how it

16 worked.

17 Q. And what about the chief of security; was he linked to the chief

18 of staff or the commander? Thank you.

19 A. Commander.

20 Q. Thank you. If the chief of security was linked to the commander,

21 would the military police not have to be linked to the commander too?

22 Thank you.

23 A. In this variant, I thought the link was to the commander, and

24 then the military police was linked to the commander through the chief of

25 security.

Page 16048

1 Q. Thank you. Could he also be linked to the chief of staff and the

2 commander, according to this chart, the way it looks - thank you - or is

3 this some sort of mistake? Thank you.

4 A. It's possibly a mistake on account of speed, on account of one's

5 inability to regulate this over a very short period of time. So an error

6 probably occurred.

7 Q. Thank you. Please, can you now look at the link between the

8 commander and the battalions 1 through 8? The Podrinje Battalion and its

9 platoons, you can see the division here in the third column and the

10 fourth column, Anti-Aircraft, Light Self-Propelled Artillery Division,

11 Anti-Aircraft, Engineering Company, and this battalion here. My question

12 is: Was any unit left out here that was directly linked to the

13 commander, and if so, please tell which one? Thank you.

14 A. I can't remember if there is another unit that belongs here not

15 being reflected. Somebody drew this chart. Maybe they left something

16 out. I can't remember. I can't remember whether there's anything else

17 that should be there.

18 Q. Thank you. Did you bring this chart along with you when you

19 spoke to Mr. Manning? Did you draw it right there and then in front of

20 him? How was it produced? Somebody wrote something down and then you

21 added to it? What can you tell the Chamber about how the chart came

22 about, how it was produced? Thank you.

23 A. I don't know how the chart was produced, but it was added to

24 during the interview. More drawings were made and names were added to

25 it, too, but I did not produce this chart myself.

Page 16049

1 Q. Thank you. Did you add all these things that are written here in

2 pen and in the Latinic script?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did you add this here, that the Military Police Company was

5 linked to the chief of security?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Thank you. Is this your handwriting down towards the bottom of

8 the chart, just outside the frame where it says "The 21st of September,

9 2001"? Thank you.

10 A. Yes, right after the date. I don't know whose signature that is.

11 Q. Does it not say "Mihajlo"?

12 A. Yes, but right after that, to the right, no, it's not. I don't

13 know who wrote that.

14 Q. Would that be Dean Manning initialling the page which you gave to

15 him?

16 A. I don't know that, I don't know whether he did or not.

17 Q. Thank you. Please, sir, can you mark with a number 1 where it

18 says "Military Police Company," part of the organisational chart of the

19 chief of staff, and with a number 2, where you say it was under the chief

20 of security, and with a number 3, mark where it says when you provided

21 this chart with your signature. Thank you.

22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: With the assistance of the Court Usher, please.

23 Please, number 1 next to "Military Police Company."

24 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And number 2.

Page 16050

1 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And number 3, where it says when you provided

3 this chart with your signature.

4 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

5 THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]

6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: What about your microphone.

7 Once again, please.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

9 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

10 Q. What is the number 1 in reference to, and then the number 2, and

11 then the number 3? Thank you.

12 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

13 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 Mr. President, could this please be admitted, the chart as

15 marked, and reflecting the changes made by the witness? Thank you.

16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This marked chart will be received as an exhibit.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P1111, marked by the witness in court for

18 the second time today, shall be assigned Exhibit D297. Thank you.

19 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20 Q. Can you tell us this too, sir, Mr. Galic: To the best of your

21 knowledge and recollection, would the Military Police Company have to be

22 linked directly to the commander in order to be directly subordinated to

23 him? Thank you.

24 A. I'm not sure and I can't say.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can we please look at

Page 16051

1 P1108, in that case, P1108.

2 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Okay. Let's look at what you said to the investigator when you

4 spoke to him, where the company should be. Thank you.

5 There you go. That's the interview that you conducted -- or that

6 Dean Manning conducted with you on the 27th of June, 2002. That's what

7 line 3 says, the date. And in the line 2, it says who conducted the

8 interview with you. Thank you.

9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Gajic.

10 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think we could have

11 the same version across our screen, because this is a bilingual interview

12 with parts in English and parts in Serbian.

13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Indeed, I see it like you explained it. And the

14 specific part could be enlarged if you give an indication where you will

15 read from.

16 Mr. Tolimir.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18 Could we now have page 45, please. 45, that's the page we want

19 to be looking at. The lower half of page 45 in English, in Serbian.

20 There you go.

21 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

22 Q. The investigator asks you:

23 "Who did he tell that to?"

24 And you say:

25 "At the officers' briefing, one of the officers' briefings, where

Page 16052

1 the senior officers were present, he announced his decision, this order

2 that security, chief of security, would report to his superior but within

3 the structure of the corps and the Main Staff."

4 Did you see that? Thank you.

5 A. Yes, I said that, but this was in reference to sending reports to

6 one's superior command by the brigade command and by the security

7 officers.

8 Q. Thank you. Could we please -- you spoke about the instructions;

9 right? Let's go back to the instructions to see whether that's what it

10 says.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please look at the third

12 paragraph up from the bottom on the same page. Thank you.

13 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

14 Q. The third paragraph from the bottom up, Mihajlo Galic says:

15 "No, no, no, he didn't say that. He only said that they were

16 responsible for their work to their direct superior in the

17 Supreme Command."

18 A. This was only in reference to the drafting of the reports for the

19 command, like the previous thing that we looked at, so that's what they

20 were talking about and no other activity.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 Page 46, let's see what you say in the continuation of this same

23 interview.

24 The investigator wanted to clarify some issues with you, who

25 could take manpower from the Military Police Battalion. Now, he asks

Page 16053

1 you:

2 "Does that mean that, for example, the security officers, in case

3 of need, could use the manpower, take men, vehicles, and anything else

4 from the brigade without reporting about it or, indeed, consulting the

5 brigade commander?"

6 And then you said:

7 "The last time around on the 21st, I said that the chief of

8 security had, as his subordinated units, also the military police unit,

9 and he was to exercise command and control over it."

10 And then the next time you talk, you say:

11 "Through the commander of that unit."

12 And now the investigator is asking you this:

13 "And my question was: Could he take resources -- could the chief

14 of security take resources from the brigade, use them, and not tell the

15 brigade command?"

16 And you go on to answer:

17 "No, that should not have been the case, with the exception of

18 the military police unit. The military police, yes; the rest, no. I

19 assume that is the case, but I'm not sure."

20 Thank you. Bearing in mind the rules we read, could the security

21 organ take from the military police some officers without telling the

22 commander, since we saw that the commander was in command of the military

23 police when we looked at the military police rules?

24 If so required, we might as well go back to it so you can have

25 another look. Thank you.

Page 16054

1 A. No, no need for that. I never studied the rules. I thought it

2 worked like this. I thought it worked as I said during the interview.

3 And that's all I can do, that's the best I can do. Chief of security of

4 the Military Police Company, it was just that once, so I believed that

5 the chief could decide about the manpower. When an individual led the

6 unit, then he could have the individual brought over, secured, and so on

7 and so forth, and that's why I said what I said at the time. Had I had

8 the rules, a copy of the rules right in front of me, had I known what I

9 know now, it probably would have been different.

10 Q. Thank you. Now that you've read the rules, how would you qualify

11 the situation now? How should it be different, and who should be the

12 commander of the military police? Thank you.

13 A. As I said many times, it's all under the command of the brigade

14 commander. Well, now the battalion commanders are in charge of their own

15 battalions, the division commander is in charge of their divisions, the

16 military police company, and so on and so forth. I believe that it was

17 in addition to the chief of security and that he had certain powers, and

18 that he had the authority to command -- or, rather, use -- or, rather,

19 take some of those men for some of those tasks performed by the

20 Military Police Company, and that's all I knew.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22 Since you know now, can we have D202. Thank you.

23 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24 Q. Rules on the Responsibilities. Can you please look at the title.

25 It reads "Regulations on the Responsibilities of the Land Army

Page 16055

1 Corps Command in Peacetime."

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now please go to page 3 of

3 the English and page 4 in the B/C/S.

4 There, we can see that. Can we please zoom in. Thank you.

5 There.

6 "Regulations on the Responsibilities of the Land Army

7 Corps Command in Peacetime." And then Article 1 reads:

8 "These regulations prescribe the responsibilities of the Land

9 Army Corps Command.

10 "According to the regulations, the definition of responsibilities

11 shall comprise the rights, obligations, and scope of work of command

12 organs and officers of these organs in the execution of the stipulated

13 work and tasks."

14 Can you now please look at Article 4 and what it says:

15 "Command organs and their officers shall execute work within the

16 scope of responsibility on the basis of the law and other regulations

17 passed pursuant to the law ..."

18 And then the next page, please:

19 "Documents from the competent levels of command and control, as

20 well as provisions of these regulations --"

21 "Provisions of these regulations," I'm sorry, that was a

22 "regulations."

23 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

24 Q. These are regulations; right?

25 And now the third paragraph on page 2 reads:

Page 16056

1 "Command organs may not transfer tasks in their scope of

2 responsibility to other command organs, nor may they take on the tasks of

3 an appropriate organ of a superior or subordinate command, unless they

4 are specially authorised to do so."

5 My question is: We see what the regulations say. Would he have

6 been authorised to transfer his right further up or further down, in

7 keeping with these regulations? Thank you.

8 A. General, sir, I've never studied these rules and regulations. I

9 did what I was ordered to do, and that was all. I was told exactly what

10 to do. And this is not something that was part of my job. I don't know

11 this, nor, indeed, did I ever find out about this. I simply never came

12 across this. I didn't have a copy of these regulations. I don't think

13 I've ever set eyes on them, as a matter of fact. Therefore --

14 Q. Thank you. Did you know that the same relationship exists in the

15 corps command and in the brigade command? Is that correct or not?

16 A. I know nothing about the corps. I can talk about the brigade. I

17 really am not familiar with any of the superior units or commands.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 Let's look at page 7 in Serbian and page 6 in English. Thank

20 you.

21 Please zoom in for the benefit of the witness. Thank you.

22 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Let's look at Article 9 of "Special Provisions," where it says

24 "Commander." Paragraph 2 of "Special Provisions," Article 9 - we can see

25 it in English as well - I quote:

Page 16057

1 "The commander shall command and control subordinate units and

2 institutions within the scope of the responsibility he received. He

3 shall be responsible to his superior for his work and the situation and

4 subordinate units and institutions and for proper and timely execution of

5 work and tasks in the competence of the command organ."

6 My question is this: Does this apply to your command as well?

7 Did your commander command and control subordinated units and

8 institutions in the brigade within the scope of the responsibility he

9 received, and did he transfer his responsibility on to others?

10 A. I really don't know how to answer your question. How do I

11 analyse this in order to be able to answer your question? Please, I

12 cannot speak from the level of the brigade commander or the corps

13 commander. I can't tell you what were their responsibilities, whether

14 they transferred their competences and responsibilities on to their

15 subordinates. It's a matter unknown to me. I don't want to get involved

16 in that. I never knew that.

17 Q. I'm not asking you this for no reason. In your statement, you

18 said that competences were transferred on to the security organ, in terms

19 of the military police. That's what you stated.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let's look at page 6 -- or, rather,

21 page 7 in English and 8 in Serbian. Let's look at that.

22 Thank you. Let's look at page 8 in Serbian and page 7 in

23 English. Thank you.

24 Thank you.

25 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Page 16058

1 Q. We're looking at Article 6 on the page that you're looking at,

2 and I'm quoting for you. These are all authorities of the commander:

3 "Managing the security service, being responsibile for the

4 security of the command and subordinate units and institutions, and

5 taking measures on the basis of regulations and his responsibility."

6 This is Article 9, bullet point 6.

7 Could your brigade commander transfer his authorities and

8 responsibilities on to somebody else? I'm talking about managing the

9 security service and being responsibile for the security of the command.

10 A. This is the rule of corps command. Please don't ask me about

11 transfer of responsibilities. You're reading articles and rules for

12 corps command. I've told you already that I know nothing about that. I

13 had a list of the activities that I was supposed to carry out. This is

14 just too high up for me. I can't talk about corps, the Main Staff. I

15 can't analyse that. I can't tell you whether somebody had this or that

16 right or responsibility. I've never come across a thing like this

17 before.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, first of all, no overlap, please.

20 And the second concern I want to mention is: This witness has now,

21 several times, told you that he is not familiar with these rules, that he

22 can't testify about these rules, he never studied them. You should focus

23 on those areas of his testimony he is familiar with. Otherwise, it could

24 be a waste of time. You will probably receive again and again the same

25 answer.

Page 16059

1 Please continue.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Could the accused please repeat his question.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Within the brigade, I did maintain

5 the VOB-8 log-book. I've never seen that in the corps command. I know

6 that I did it in brigade, that many others before me and after me did it.

7 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Can you explain, for the benefit of the Trial Chamber, what VOB-8

9 is? What does the abbreviation stand for, and what kind of information

10 does VOB-8 contain?

11 A. This is information for soldiers. Now, after 15 years, I really

12 can't remember what information it contained. I know that there was the

13 name, the first and the family name, the military specialty. Please, you

14 have to understand that I did what I did not because I liked it, but

15 because I had to.

16 Q. Were you ever duty-bound to send your reports to the corps

17 command about what your organ was doing and what the strength of your

18 unit was based on the information contained in VOB-8?

19 A. Reports were sent about the strength of the unit regularly

20 according to a schedule which was given to us.

21 Q. Thank you. When it comes to your superior commands, did they

22 have the same schematic, the same structure, the same obligations, when

23 it came to the filling out of "VOB-8" box, or did other brigades do it

24 differently?

25 A. General, sir, I was a member of the Zvornik Brigade. I know how

Page 16060

1 things were done, in principle, in my brigade. And as for the others, I

2 was never a member of any other brigade. I could never control how they

3 did things. I didn't have an insight into how they did things.

4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please wait.

5 Now continue.

6 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Did you have to send your reports to the brigade, and did you

8 have to tally your reports with the reports of other brigades so as to

9 make them uniform with other brigades and corps? Thank you.

10 A. General, sir, we sent reports about the strength of the brigade

11 for our brigade. How others did it, whether they did it or not, I don't

12 know. I only know that we sent our reports at the intervals that were

13 requested from us.

14 Q. Thank you. Did you also use all the forms, such as VOB-8, which

15 is a form? Are they used at the same time in brigades and in corps? Did

16 you know that? And in your work, did you have that in mind when you sent

17 your reports?

18 A. I can only assume that all units had to do that in an identical

19 way, that those VOB forms had to be filled out and contain information on

20 all unit members. I suppose that that was the case, but I can't be sure.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you for your answer.

22 And can we now look at page 10 in Serbian and page 8 in English.

23 Thank you.

24 Article 10 of the same regulations, that's at the very beginning.

25 Can it be zoomed in, please.

Page 16061

1 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

2 Q. It says:

3 "The chief of staff shall replace the commander when the latter

4 is absent and shall have all rights and duties. If the commander and the

5 chief of staff are both absent at the same time, the commander shall be

6 replaced by the officer assigned on the order of the commander."

7 My question is this: You have just told us that Vinko Pandurevic

8 was absent between the 4th and the 15th, to the best of your

9 recollection. Would you say that Article 10 applied, that the chief of

10 staff shall replace the commander when the latter is absent? So was that

11 the case during the relevant period of time? Thank you.

12 A. When the commander was absent, he was replaced by the chief of

13 staff. When both were absent, as far as I know, it never happened in our

14 brigade.

15 Q. Thank you. Is this envisaged by the regulations? It did not

16 need to happen in your brigade, but could it, for example, happen that

17 one was on sick leave and the other was away on business? Is there a

18 rule that envisages such a situation?

19 A. Yes. I'm looking at Article 10, and I can see that this, indeed,

20 is envisaged.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And now, while we still have this

23 document on the screen in e-court, can we look at page 30 in English and

24 page 35 in Serbian. Thank you.

25 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 16062

1 Q. We are looking at Article 7 of this regulation that deals with

2 security organ. Actually, it's Chapter 7. Article 29 of that chapter

3 says, and I quote:

4 "The security organ is a specialised organ of the command for

5 organising and implementing security measures and undertaking other

6 specialised work in the field of security that is placed under its

7 responsibility by special regulations and is, in this regard, responsible

8 for:

9 "Uncovering and preventing intelligence and other subversive

10 activities of foreign intelligence ..."

11 And so on and so forth.

12 You can read that for yourself. You can see everything.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And now let's quickly go to

14 paragraph 9 of Article 29. Could you please quickly show us that bullet

15 point, and then I'll have a question for the witness, where it says:

16 "Expertly directing security organs and the military police in

17 the corps command and units and in other JNA units in the zone of

18 responsibility, organising, directing and co-ordinating their activities,

19 providing assistance, and controlling their work, especially in regard to

20 counter-intelligence work and tasks."

21 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

22 Q. And my question is this: Did you have in mind this, when you

23 said there were exceptions to every rule, or did you have something else

24 in mind? If the latter is correct, can you please explain, for the

25 benefit of the Trial Chamber, what it was? Thank you.

Page 16063

1 A. What was read to me were the duties of the security organ of the

2 corps, and I repeat, again and yet again, that I never saw this before, I

3 never read this before. I will never have an opportunity to do it, given

4 my age and everything else. I can't give you any comment with this

5 regard. These are someone's duties, and I can't tell you anything about

6 it because I don't know anything about this. The only thing I can do is

7 just read, and I can tell you I don't know, I'm not familiar, I've never

8 seen -- whether this was, indeed, the case in the brigade command, I

9 don't know. I was never in a security organ, never.

10 Q. Who was in control of what?

11 A. Regarding the article you mentioned, there's a lot more of those.

12 I really can't, I'm sorry. I'm not familiar with the subject-matter. I

13 find it very difficult to find my way around. Any further reading of

14 these corps rules and who was in charge of what is really not helping.

15 I'm not familiar with the substance; it's that simple. I don't know what

16 approach to take when this is read back to me and then you ask me whether

17 this was the case or whether something else was the case. This wasn't my

18 job. I'm not familiar with it. It's very hard for me. It's very

19 unnatural, if you like.

20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: For the record, lines 13 and 14 on page 78 are

21 part of the answer of the witness. That was not the question of

22 Mr. Tolimir.

23 Mr. Tolimir, you have a few minutes left.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25 Let's look at D294, which was tendered at the beginning of our

Page 16064

1 conversation, page 7 of that document.

2 This is page 8 in English, the bottom of the page. Thank you

3 very much, Aleksandar. The end of page 8 in the English. Thank you.

4 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Mr. Galic, I'm not angry with you because you don't know the

6 rules. But should you not have said that to the investigators and

7 lawyers when they asked you about the authorities of certain organs that

8 you weren't familiar with, such as this: The third entry "Petrusic,"

9 "Petrusic," "Galic," "Petrusic," "Galic," and then you say -- "Petrusic,"

10 "Galic":

11 "Therefore, we may conclude that in relation to the category of

12 personnel, the company commander was Miomir Jasikovac in July 1995, and

13 his superior officer along the same line, Drago Nikolic,

14 Colonel [as interpreted] Drago Nikolic?"

15 And your answer was:

16 "Yes."

17 And then he goes on --

18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, just a correction for the record.

19 You said, I quote:

20 "And then you say ..."

21 And then the question was quoted by you, but it was not

22 Witness Galic who said that but Mr. Petrusic, the Defence counsel. This

23 is a correction to page 79, line 12, at the end of the line.

24 Please continue.

25 MS. HASAN: Mr. President, just one additional correction for the

Page 16065

1 record.

2 It says in the English version, at least, that it's Lieutenant

3 Drago Nikolic, whereas I think the record shows "Colonel Drago Nikolic."

4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I see "Lieutenant Drago Nikolic" in the

5 translation in the English version.

6 MS. HASAN: Sorry, I was referring to the current transcript on

7 LiveNote, where it says, at line 18 of page 79 --

8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, you are right. In the document, itself, it

9 says "Lieutenant Drago Nikolic." Thank you for the correction.

10 Mr. Tolimir, I think we have to conclude the hearing of today.

11 It's 7.00.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm just asking a question based on

13 this.

14 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Mr. Galic, had you been familiar with the rules, would you have

16 answered the same way, the question asked by Attorney Petrusic and

17 earlier by Investigator Manning?

18 A. I said what I knew. When I didn't know something, I didn't

19 discuss it. I said what I knew at the time.

20 Q. But you go on to say: "Yes, that's right," which means you

21 answer as if you knew? Thank you.

22 A. Because that's what Petrusic told me, the same thing, so that's

23 that.

24 Q. Just tell us one thing. Did you -- were you led by his question,

25 and that was why you answered the way you answered, or did you really

Page 16066

1 believe that it was like that.

2 A. I was probably led by the nature of the question, and then I

3 simply said, Yes, that's right.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Galic.

5 I wish you a very good rest. Don't be angry with me. We'll

6 continue tomorrow, but you understand I need to ask you all these

7 questions for the record, because all these documents were admitted as

8 OTP documents and they constitute evidence in a court of law. Thank you

9 very much.

10 Have a nice rest and see you back here tomorrow. Thank you very

11 much, Mr. Galic.

12 Thank you, everyone. I'm sorry for continuing for longer than

13 normally required.

14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.

15 Sir, we have to adjourn for the day, and we will resume tomorrow,

16 in the afternoon, at 2.15 in Courtroom III.

17 We adjourn.

18 [The witness stands down]

19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.03 p.m.,

20 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 5th day of July,

21 2011, at 2.15 p.m.