010928ED

Page 1220

1 A. He's wearing a brown suit, headphones, and I think he's sitting

2 behind his counsel, as far as I can understand, next to one of your police

3 officers.

4 Q. And what is the full name of the person you are now indicating to

5 us?

6 A. Mitar Vasiljevic.

7 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, may the record reflect she has

8 identified the accused in this case.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.

10 MR. GROOME:

11 Q. I want to now draw your attention to the latter part of April in

12 1992 and ask you, did you have occasion or interaction with Mr. Vasiljevic

13 at that time?

14 A. In the month of April?

15 Q. Yes.

16 A. No, but -- yes, in May.

17 Q. Would you describe what occurred in May.

18 A. On the 18th of May, 1992, Visegrad was abandoned by the former

19 JNA. That is, the former JNA left the town of Visegrad and withdrew to

20 the outskirts of the town. On the following day, I went with my family to

21 Kosovo Polje with the intention to work on our land, and I was carrying a

22 wicker basket with some seeds. And at the entrance, at the gate of

23 Mr. Vasiljevic's house, there stood Mitar with his wife and three unknown

24 uniformed individuals, wearing former JNA uniforms, that is. At that

25 moment, Mitar Vasiljevic approached us with his wife and they wanted me to

Page 1221

1 show them my identity card. I handed over my identity card to Mr. Mitar

2 Vasiljevic and he asked me when I intended to come back from Kosovo Polje.

3 And I said, "Around 1800." He kept my identity card and he told

4 me, and I quote: "Don't let me look for you." I left for Kosovo Polje

5 with the intention of avoiding what I had already experienced in Visegrad.

6 Q. And did this occur -- the house that you're referring to, was that

7 on the road between Visegrad and Kosovo Polje?

8 A. It happened in front of the entrance, in front of the gate to

9 Mitar Vasiljevic's yard, to the yard of his house. There was a creek on

10 the left side which passes along the house belonging to the Sisic family,

11 which is the adjacent house.

12 Q. Can you describe for us what road this house is on.

13 A. On the road to Visegrad, towards Kosovo Polje, on the right side,

14 and opposite -- across the street from Mr. Vasiljevic's house, there are

15 no houses at all along the distance of some 200 or 300 metres. There are

16 no houses there.

17 Q. Approximately what time of the day is this?

18 A. Around noon.

19 Q. And how was Mr. Vasiljevic dressed at that time?

20 A. He was wearing his waiter's uniform, a black waiter's uniform, I

21 think.

22 Q. And did he have any weapons that you could see?

23 A. Mitar and the three other individuals had rifles. They were

24 armed. Whereas his wife, Milojka, she didn't have any. She was just

25 wearing her ordinary civilian clothes, ladies' clothes.

Page 1222

1 Q. The other three men that you're describing being present at this

2 time, did you recognise any of them?

3 A. No, I didn't recognise any of them. I don't think that they were

4 from Visegrad. I wasn't able to recognise them.

5 Q. I want to now draw your attention to a time just before the Muslim

6 holiday of Kurban Bajram. Did you have occasion to see Mr. Vasiljevic

7 around that period of time?

8 A. I remember as if it were yesterday. The first day of Bajram was

9 the 11th of June, and on the 10th of June, Mr. Mitar Vasiljevic, while on

10 the road in the location called Gajic, he was going along the road, along

11 that road in a green Zastava car. Somebody else was driving while Mitar

12 was sitting in the passenger's seat, carrying a black flag with skull and

13 bones on it, and he was calling out to Muslims to -- he was yelling out

14 from the car, "Muslims, we are distributing Kurban meat tomorrow."

15 That happened on the 10th of June, that is, the day before Kurban Bajram.

16 Q. And does part of the Muslim celebration of Kurban Bajram involve a

17 special meat?

18 A. According to the customs and the Muslim tradition, is that, for

19 example, if you have a parent who died recently and who passed it on to

20 his brother or sister to slaughter sheep then, that can be done for the

21 immediate kin or on behalf of those who died, and then the meat is

22 distributed amongst relatives, which is usually done in the afternoon

23 hours on the first or the second day of Kurban Bajram.

24 Q. I want to now draw your attention to the 14th of June. Do you

25 recall that day?

Page 1223

1 A. The 14th of June was the fourth day of Kurban Bajram, which is

2 celebrated for four days. The festivities last four days.

3 Q. Witness, before I move on, I just want to ask you one question to

4 clear up something. The village of Gajic that you've referred to, can you

5 describe where that is in relation to Kosovo Polje.

6 A. It is situated before Kosovo Polje, on the road to Visegrad, some

7 200 or 300 metres away from it. There is a little hill there from the

8 direction of Kosovo Polje towards Visegrad.

9 Q. Are you familiar with where the village of Koritnik is?

10 A. Yes, I am.

11 Q. And where is that in relation to where you were staying in Kosovo

12 Polje?

13 A. Koritnik is situated on the road to Sase Pod Greben and you have

14 to turn right off the road to reach Koritnik.

15 Q. On the 14th of June, did there come a time when you saw a group of

16 people on the road in front of Kosovo Polje?

17 A. Around noon. There was a large group of people consisting of some

18 50 or 60 people, including men, women, and children, and they were

19 carrying - I don't know how to describe it - some bags and bundles, small

20 bags and the like. And [redacted] was amongst them. She used to be

21 our neighbour. She lived some 200 metres away from Kosovo Polje but still

22 in the part which belongs to Kosovo Polje. She was with her relatives,

23 because she is also from the Kurspahic family, but she had built her house

24 near Kosovo Polje. So she joined them and she was going towards the town

25 with them. She only came to get some clothes, and she told me that they

Page 1224

1 were going to join a convoy for Olovo, so they were at that point in time

2 heading towards Visegrad.

3 Q. And did you have any conversation with any members of this group?

4 A. I did not talk to them, but I did speak to Igbala, because up

5 until the 14th, she was living in Kosovo Polje. She was spending a lot of

6 time in Kosovo Polje, actually. She had two sisters there, where she was

7 staying at the time, because she had fled from her house.

8 Q. Later on that day, did you have occasion to see Mr. Mitar

9 Vasiljevic?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And who did you see him with?

12 A. So on the first day of Kurban Bajram, on the 11th, and then until

13 the 14th of June, a lot of Muslims were slaughtered and destroyed in

14 Visegrad. I could see that with my own eyes, because the Drina River is

15 some hundred metres away from my house. There was blood in the river and

16 bodies were floating on the surface of the Drina. Since I have two

17 daughters -- there were a lot of women, maybe 10 or 12 young girls. We

18 were trying to move those young women away, so we were withdrawing from

19 the area of Gajic, some 50 metres away from there, and there were 10 or 12

20 of us there at one point in time.

21 And I saw a Passat car passing by. Because at that time we knew

22 that the car belonged to a woman by the name of Bahija [phoen], and

23 according to the statements of witnesses, she was killed by Milan Lukic.

24 And Mr. Mitar Vasiljevic came out of that car together with Milan Lukic

25 and another individual unknown to me who was wearing a JNA uniform. And

Page 1225

1 it was at that moment that we saw Igbala Kurspahic -- no. Sorry. I

2 apologise.

3 No. That was on the 9th of June. Sorry, I have to concentrate a

4 little. Yes. We saw Mitar and Milan then, together with another

5 individual, and Professor (redacted) came by. He's a short man, wears

6 glasses. He couldn't see anything without his glasses. And they were

7 arguing on the road. We were in one of the bushes near the

8 road. And they pushed Rasim into the car and drove him in the direction

9 of Visegrad. I don't know what happened to Rasim after that, but he

10 hasn't been seen ever since.

11 Q. Can you tell us what was the colour of this car?

12 A. Red.

13 Q. And approximately what time did this occur?

14 A. Around 6.00 p.m. Later in the day, at sunset.

15 Q. You've mentioned Milan Lukic. Can you describe for us how it is

16 you know this person?

17 A. I have known Milan Lukic ever since he was a child. [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 Q. And can you describe how Mr. Lukic was dressed on this day?

24 A. On that day, he was wearing a camouflage uniform.

25 Q. And did he have a weapon?

Page 1226

1 A. I saw a weapon on Lukic on that occasion, but I didn't notice that

2 Mr. Vasiljevic had any weapon on that particular occasion. But I did see

3 the man being pushed into the car.

4 Q. The third man that you've described, did he have a weapon?

5 A. He had a rifle. I don't know what kind of rifle it was, but he

6 was carrying it across his shoulder, slung on his shoulder.

7 Q. Did any of these three men have any disguise or covering over

8 their face?

9 A. He had a cap which was covering his face, with holes for eyes and

10 his mouth. It was black in colour.

11 Q. Which person had this covering on his face?

12 A. I couldn't recognise them.

13 Q. So it's the person that you did not recognise who had his face

14 covered; is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Can you describe for the Court where you were when you were making

17 these observations?

18 A. Let me think. I can't remember the names of these various

19 paramilitary formations. At a certain point in time, we wanted to hide

20 the girls and the young women in a building, in some bushes, because

21 whenever they broke into villages, they didn't dare go into the meadows or

22 the creeks or the streams so they would just go into a small path, and

23 whoever they found, they would either kill them or take them away or ask

24 them to lead them to others who were in hiding.

25 Q. And where exactly were you?

Page 1227

1 A. We were on the right-hand side, next to the property of a

2 neighbour of mine, because there were some trees there, some small trees,

3 and we were hiding there.

4 Q. And can you approximate for the Court the distance between you and

5 the red Passat?

6 A. Just below the road, maybe 20 or 30 metres away.

7 Q. I'm going to ask you to look down on your sheet of paper there.

8 I'm going to ask you: Did there come a time when you saw Witness number

9 13 after this event that you have just described for us?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. When did you see her?

12 A. [No interpretation].

13 JUDGE HUNT: We've lost the interpretation.

14 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter apologises. I failed to switch

15 on my microphone.

16 JUDGE HUNT: Do you want the witness to repeat the answer?

17 THE INTERPRETER: If possible, yes, or I can repeat it.

18 JUDGE HUNT: Have you got it there? You sufficiently noted it to

19 be able to repeat it without having to repeat the evidence itself?

20 THE INTERPRETER: She was saying that between 4.00 and 4.30 a.m.,

21 between the 16th and the 17th of June, without getting to the verb.

22 MR. GROOME:

23 Q. And where was it that you saw Witness number 13?

24 A. Let me repeat: This happened between the 16th and the 17th, about

25 4.00 a.m. or 4.30 a.m. I was sleeping, and my neighbours knocked on my

Page 1228

1 door. They said, "Can you come and bandage a woman?" I know that there

2 was no shooting in our neighbourhood that night, so I was surprised. How

3 come there was a woman wounded who needed treatment? So I got up. I had

4 some bandages. I went outside. I saw in front of me the person number

5 13.

6 Person number 13 was wearing a lady's vest, but it was covered in

7 dried blood, and she had tights. Her feet -- she didn't have any shoes

8 on. She was holding her left arm and she was wounded in the thigh, I

9 think it was of her left thigh. She asked us to give her first aid. At

10 the time, she looked like a witch, to put it that way. Her hair was on

11 end, untidy; she was dirty. I took her into the cornfield, I washed her

12 and we cut her hair because you couldn't comb through it, put a comb

13 through it. I just managed to put a bandage on her arm. However, it was

14 warm at the time - the weather was warm - and there were a hundred flies

15 that collected around this bandage, like a beehive, so you couldn't

16 approach her four or five metres away.

17 I took her back to the cornfield. I gave her another bath. I

18 washed her again. However, when I removed the bandage, the muscles were

19 falling out. The bone had been broken and there was pus everywhere. And

20 I asked my neighbours for their help. We believed in a particular plant

21 which needed to be put on the wound. Then I took some antibiotics out and

22 put some powder there, but that didn't help either. I bandaged the arm

23 again and I asked them to bring some pure alcohol, because my mother was a

24 sick woman and she used alcohol for her feet. And they brought half a

25 glass of alcohol and I poured it onto this wound. In a couple of minutes,

Page 1229

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 1230

1 I saw worms that were more than a centimetre long, white worms. I put

2 some plum twigs and pulled out, worm by worm, five or six of them. We

3 found a piece of wood and we put it under her arm, and again I found this

4 plant, I squeezed it and, with the juice, I covered the wound and bandaged

5 it again.

6 Q. Approximately how much time did you spend with this woman?

7 A. The third day, we left.

8 Q. Had you known this woman before you met her this night?

9 A. At first I couldn't recognise her, because she had changed so

10 much. Her face had gone black, perhaps because of the bleeding. But when

11 she told me whose daughter-in-law she was, I knew her in-laws very well.

12 Q. And did she know you?

13 A. Later she remembered. When I told her who I was, then she

14 remembered me.

15 Q. Did she tell you who did this to her?

16 A. At the time, she told me everything. As far as I'm able to

17 recollect, she said that they had been chased out of Koritnik, allegedly

18 to go for the convoy to Olovo. They were taken to Pionirska Street, to

19 one house then to another. Then apparently Mr. Mitar came and Mr. Milan

20 Lukic and Bosko Djuric, that they had forced them into a house, that they

21 had shot -- that they had set the house alight, that she, with her son,

22 this person number 13, had managed to jump out the window, but at the time

23 she never knew whether her son had survived.

24 Q. Now, after your treatment of Witness number 13, did you ever see

25 Mr. Vasiljevic again?

Page 1231

1 A. I did.

2 Q. When is the next time you saw Mr. Vasiljevic?

3 A. On the 18th of June.

4 Q. And can you describe for us the circumstances under which you saw

5 him at that time? I'm sorry, let me ask you this first: At what time on

6 the 18th of June? Can you approximate for us that?

7 A. It was about 1800 hours, so late in the afternoon.

8 Q. And where did you observe him?

9 A. I asked a Serb neighbour of mine to drive me home.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Groome, it would be helpful, I think, if we had

11 some idea from the witness why she is certain that it was that date or

12 that it was after the previous event or something like that. It is rather

13 important.

14 MR. GROOME:

15 Q. Can you tell us why it is you say that this day was the 18th of

16 June? How is it that you remember?

17 A. Because the things we lived through in Kosovo Polje were

18 intolerable. Ten to twenty various groups would break into the village on

19 a daily basis. Some were looking for jewellery, some for German marks,

20 some for money. They killed, they slaughtered, they set houses on fire so

21 we could no longer stand it. And on the 19th of June, in the evening,

22 we officially decided, we got together in a stream and we officially

23 decided to cross from the right bank of the Drina to the left bank of the

24 Drina and to look for salvation in the woods. And I know exactly that it

25 was on the 18th of June I asked my neighbour to take me home because I

Page 1232

1 had been thrown out of my house without anything. So I wanted to get some

2 clothes and food to feed my children.

3 Q. I want to take you back to the 18th. Can you describe the

4 circumstances surrounding your observation of Mr. Vasiljevic on that day.

5 A. Mitar knows very well on the 18th of June that he came to Kosovo

6 Polje with Milan Lukic. Milan killed Nurka Kos. Next to Murka -- Nurka,

7 he tore up the ID card of a man, and the children brought it and we glued

8 it together so we were able to see who the man was. So next to the killed

9 Nurka Kos, he left this ID card in shreds. This happened -- 14, 16 -- at

10 17 or 1800 hours. But since there was a lot of shooting about 300 metres

11 away from us, in the creek called Sase - this went on for days and nights

12 - I went with person number 98, my intention being to prepare some beans,

13 the planting of beans. It's not far. It's just around a bend. And there

14 was Milan Lukic, Mitar Vasiljevic, and another man. And in front of them

15 were four civilians whom I couldn't recognise. This was, after all, 150

16 to 200 metres away. They shot at them, they killed them, and they fell

17 into the Drina River. I went back and told my neighbours about this and

18 that night, we firmly decided that on the 19th of June we should leave

19 Kosovo Polje and go to the left bank of the Drina.

20 But in the morning, when we went to another neighbour to ask what

21 we should do - the neighbour's name was [redacted], and he said, "Dig

22 in. We can't help you any more. Lukic's gang was killed Stankoka

23 Pecikoza." That was on the 19th of June. So we went back and we managed

24 to collect a hundred or 120 people. We had a boat which had been shot at

25 and there were holes from bullets. But the men found a way to stop up

Page 1233

1 those holes and, at 2.00 in the morning, we crossed the Drina River.

2 Q. I want to take you back to your description of what you observed.

3 You said that you were approximately 100 to 200 metres away and was not

4 able to recognise the victims. How is it you were able to recognise the

5 perpetrators?

6 A. Well, you see, if you know someone for 20 years and even more than

7 20 years, and if you see a man up to ten times a day, like I did Mitar,

8 and Mitar knows very well where I worked and that we went to eat there,

9 that he served us, and we often sat together and had a drink and had fun

10 together, then you can recognise him, no matter how many metres away he

11 is.

12 Q. Now, on the 19th, when you crossed the Drina River, would you

13 describe for the Court the condition of the river at that time.

14 A. I wouldn't like any one of you to see such a scene. There was a

15 boat that I said was riddled with holes, and it took a lot of effort to be

16 able to use it. And I was the first to enter the boat, carrying my

17 daughters. As we were crossing the Drina, we had to push away dead bodies

18 with the oars so that the boat could move. Some were hanging on trees,

19 some were on the shallow end, and I had to hold my nose. When I got out,

20 my husband asked me where the children were, and I was not aware that they

21 were not with me in the boat. And that night we all crossed to the

22 Jelacic village, the neighbouring Bosniak village close to Kosovo Polje.

23 Q. After you crossed over the Drina on this day, did there ever come

24 a time when you had to cross back over the Drina and return to Kosovo

25 Polje?

Page 1234

1 A. Yes. Being a woman, I crossed three times - but my husband

2 wouldn't let me cross again after that - because we hadn't taken anything

3 with us. All we cared about was to save our lives and the lives of our

4 children. I crossed back for the first time on the 21st of June, the

5 second time on the 23rd of June, and for the last time on the 25th of

6 June.

7 Q. I'd like to draw your attention to the 21st of June, and can you

8 describe for us what, if anything, you saw from Kosovo Polje on that day.

9 A. I apologise to Your Honours. May I address Mr. Mitar Vasiljevic

10 in answering this question?

11 JUDGE HUNT: I think, madam, it would be best if you just answer

12 the question. I don't want to be difficult, but it would be provocative

13 and unnecessarily so. So just answer the question that counsel has asked

14 you and we'll get along a lot more happily.

15 MR. GROOME:

16 Q. Can you please describe to the members of the Court what it was

17 that you observed when you crossed --

18 A. Yes. The first time I crossed, on the 21st of June, we went to

19 get some food, because our village had still not been burnt down. A man

20 called Selim Musanovic, he had brought large quantities of beehives to

21 Kosovo Polje. At the time, we didn't have sugar and we went to collect

22 the honey from those beehives. This was after 2200 hours. Mitar came

23 along from the direction of Sase. He was tipsy, with a rifle on his

24 shoulder, and he was with Veljko Planincic, also known as Razonoda, a

25 former policeman. They were singing various songs about the Bosniaks and

Page 1235

1 they went off, probably in the direction of Mitar's house.

2 Q. And how far away were you from Mr. Vasiljevic at this time?

3 A. Maybe about 15 metres.

4 Q. And to your knowledge, did he see you?

5 A. He couldn't have seen us, because they were armed, they were

6 singing, they were tipsy, and these beehives are rather large, maybe as

7 big as this table, and we hid behind them until they passed, singing. And

8 right next to them was the Orthodox cemetery.

9 Q. Now, you've mentioned two other occasions that you crossed the

10 river. On either of these occasions did you see Mr. Vasiljevic?

11 A. The last time that I saw Mitar was the 25th of June. He was

12 walking alone. He was tipsy, with a rifle. He was passing through Kosovo

13 Polje. He was singing songs. He would first pass the Serbian cemetery,

14 then the Bosniak cemetery. He was coming from the direction of Sase on

15 the 25th of June. That was the last time I crossed the Drina River to go

16 to Kosovo Polje.

17 Q. And how far away were you from him at this time?

18 A. It is very close. I always said 10 or 15 metres. It may be 20 or

19 30, because if you come across someone with a rifle or something, all you

20 do is to hide. I wasn't alone. There would always be 20 or 30 of us

21 crossing the river to bring food.

22 Q. Witness 81, as you sit here today, is there any doubt in your mind

23 that you saw Mr. Mitar Vasiljevic after you treated Witness VG13?

24 A. Let me say once again: I'm telling the truth. Right up until the

25 25th of June, 1992, I personally, and others, saw Mitar Vasiljevic coming

Page 1236

1 from the direction of Sase, going towards Visegrad and passing through

2 Kosovo Polje.

3 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Witness 81.

4 I have no further questions.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Domazet.

6 Cross-examined by Mr. Domazet:

7 Q. [Interpretation] Madam, in answer to Mr. Groome's question and

8 Judge Hunt, I think that the dates you mentioned, the 19th, the 21st,

9 23rd, and the 25th, and the other ones, the 18th, the 14th to the 18th,

10 that you are quite certain of these dates, linking everything to your

11 crossing of the Drina, which occurred on the 19th of June, in the evening;

12 is that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. I have to wait for the transcript. So relying on this date, the

15 19th, when you talk about the 21st, the 23rd, and so you are saying it is

16 two days after you crossed, four days, and so on. Is that how -- am I

17 correct in interpreting your memory of those dates as being two, four, and

18 six days after you had crossed the river?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You also explained, madam, that on the 19th of June you went to

21 the [redacted] house and learnt that he was killed, but I didn't understand

22 quite who told you that.

23 A. I and another three people who went to visit [redacted], with

24 whom we never had any problems, and we still don't, and [redacted] said,

25 [redacted] was killed this morning at 6.00 a.m. They were supposed to

Page 1237

1 take some money. Lukic and his gang killed him. Dig yourself in into the

2 ground, because we can no longer help you."

3 Q. Will you please tell us what [redacted]

4 [redacted].

5 A. They were probably the close relatives.

6 Q. [redacted]

7 A. [redacted]

8 Q. [redacted]

9 A. [redacted]

10 Q. What time of day was it when you learnt about that?

11 A. We first went sometime about 8.00 the first time, and the second

12 time he told us, "Come around 10.00 and I will tell you the real truth,"

13 and that is when he said, "Please dig into the ground because we can no

14 longer help you." That is verbatim what he said.

15 Q. You're, of course, talking about half past 7.00 in the morning and

16 10.00 in the morning.

17 A. If I was talking about 10.00 in the evening, I would have said

18 2200 hours.

19 Q. So it was at 10.00 that he gave you the whole truth. What did he

20 tell you at half past 7.00?

21 A. Will you let me finish for the transcript, please. We have to

22 make breaks between questions and answers.

23 JUDGE HUNT: Just a moment.

24 MR. DOMAZET:

25 Q. So what did he tell you the first time?

Page 1238

1 JUDGE HUNT: Madam, because you and counsel are speaking the same

2 language, there's a problem in relation to the translations. We are

3 receiving your evidence translated into English and into French, and the

4 interpreters have to be able to keep up with you. So would you please

5 pause before you answer the question, just as Mr. Domazet is pausing

6 before he asks you a question. In that way, the interpreters can keep up

7 and we don't lose anything that you say. Do you understand that?

8 A. Yes.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

10 Mr. Domazet.

11 MR. DOMAZET: Thank you, Your Honour.

12 Q. [Interpretation] So let me go back to this question. You said you

13 went there twice, first at -- was it 7.30 or 8.30? It doesn't matter.

14 What were you told the first time and what were you told the second time?

15 A. [redacted], who is still alive, told us the first time, "It

16 seems that Lukic and his gang have killed [redacted]. Come around

17 10.00 and I will be able to tell you the truth."

18 Q. Thank you. And at 10.00, he told you that he had been killed?

19 A. Yes. [redacted] told us at 10.00, [redacted] has been

20 killed. We can no longer help you. Dig into the ground," and we turned

21 back.

22 Q. Were you still in Kosovo Polje [redacted] body was

23 brought to his house?

24 A. On the 19th of June, [redacted], the deceased, was not

25 brought there. We just watched from a distance of some 300 metres, from

Page 1239

1 the Drina, friends and neighbours and citizens coming to express their

2 condolences to the family of [redacted].

3 Q. Yes, I understand. So you did not see a car bringing his body.

4 A. It was not on that day, for sure.

5 Q. I see. And the next day, you were no longer in Kosovo Polje; is

6 that right?

7 A. In the evening, at 2200 hours, we crossed from the right bank of

8 the Drina to the left bank of the Drina, and found accommodation in the

9 Bosniak village of Jelacic.

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 Q. The people who were watching the funeral, did they tell you when

17 that was, when it was that he was buried?

18 A. See, while we were in that village, hundreds of shells were

19 falling down every day, so we did not have time to think of anything else

20 but how to get some food and save the lives of ourselves and our children.

21 Q. Can I therefore interpret your answer as meaning that nobody told

22 you that, that is, that you didn't know when [redacted] was buried, nor the

23 day when he was killed?

24 A. I know that some people watched the funeral, but I don't know the

25 date.

Page 1240

1 Q. You said that it was on the 21st that you returned for the first

2 time, in the evening hours of the 21st, that is, two days after you had

3 learned about [redacted]. Does that help you in any way? Does it

4 mean that it was after his funeral or not?

5 A. Once again, sir, I have to tell you that I don't know the date

6 when late [redacted] was buried, but it was on the 21st that I first returned

7 to the [redacted] to get some food for my family.

8 Q. So it was on that day that you said you saw this large group of

9 men taking honey from the beehive belonging to the individual that you

10 mentioned?

11 A. Yes, including myself and a couple of other women and Bosniak men,

12 because we didn't have any sugar. We wanted to use the honey to take it

13 to the left bank of the Drina River so that we have something to eat, to

14 survive on.

15 Q. Were you all together while crossing the river? Did you cross it

16 by boat?

17 A. We crossed the river in two or three groups, in boats which were

18 completely packed, because we had to be at the river, by the river, at a

19 specific time so that we could cross over together at the same time.

20 Q. Do you remember the names of the men who were with you on that

21 occasion?

22 A. Well, you're asking too much. I really cannot tell you the names

23 now. I don't want to mention the names now.

24 Q. Do I understand you correctly that you do remember the names but

25 that for various reasons you don't wish to tell them?

Page 1241

1 A. I am a hundred per cent sure about the names, but I do not wish to

2 mention them now.

3 JUDGE HUNT: Madam, I remind you, please do pause before you

4 answer the question. You came straight in after the question there,

5 understandably, but you must try and pause, otherwise we lose some of your

6 evidence. I think the interpreters were able to catch up this time, but

7 they can't always.

8 Yes, Mr. Domazet.

9 MR. DOMAZET:

10 Q. [Interpretation] Could you tell the Court the reasons why you

11 decline to tell us their names?

12 A. I am not required to give you or the Court the reasons why I do

13 not wish to disclose the identity of those people.

14 Q. Very well, then. Let me go back to the events that you describe

15 took place on the 19th of June, before the death of Stanko Pecikoza and

16 before you crossed the river Drina. You said that the day before that,

17 that is, on the 18th of June, you had seen Mitar Vasiljevic on two

18 occasions. Once you saw him in the afternoon hours, in Sase, and the

19 second time in Kosovo Polje, when Milan Lukic killed Nurka Kos; is that

20 correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Are you sure about the way and the time it happened? Are you sure

23 that it had taken place before you crossed the Drina River, that is,

24 before you learnt about the death of Stanko Pecikoza?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1242

1 Q. The second occasion, you said you observed him from a somewhat

2 greater distance, and you said that you had gone to a field to pick some

3 plants. The location in question is quite a way from your village, the

4 creek in Sase, that is?

5 A. If you listened carefully to the interpretation, you could realise

6 that it was not very far from the area where I was born, because the man

7 in question was, after all, someone I had known for many years.

8 Q. No, no, no. That was not my question. You already explained that

9 to the Court. You said you were able to recognise the individuals from a

10 hundred or 200 metres' distance and you gave us the reasons for that. I

11 just wanted to know how it came about that you happened to be near the

12 brook, near the creek in Sase, because it was far away from Kosovo Polje

13 where you were on that day.

14 A. If you are familiar with Kosovo Polje and Visegrad, from the

15 Kalate community centre up until the village of Sase, the whole area

16 belongs to Muslims, Bosniaks. They have their properties there near

17 Kosovo Polje.

18 Q. I'm quite familiar with the area in question. Of course I do not

19 know the owners of the property there, but my question concerned the

20 actual distance, because on that day you were hiding in the village, and

21 it was on the same day that you went very far, because the creek in Sase,

22 as you will agree with me, is far away from Kosovo Polje, especially when

23 you go on foot and especially if you bear in mind the fact that you were

24 in hiding on that day. Am I right?

25 A. You're not right at all, because throughout that period of time,

Page 1243

1 from the month of April until the 19th of June, it was not possible for a

2 Bosniak to move freely around the area. We were all looking for a hole to

3 hide. And the Drina River is very near that area. And if you should try

4 to walk along the river on that portion of the territory, you will see

5 that it is quite possible to observe the surroundings with the naked eye.

6 Q. That is precisely the reason for my question. I know that one can

7 easily observe the area in question, but I would like to know whether it

8 was possible for you on that day, after a very serious incident that you

9 had witnessed, to go, to dare and go to the Sase creek, together with the

10 individuals who were, like yourself, quite visible there. And you have

11 explained us that you were in hiding in those days, that you were afraid.

12 A. I didn't tell you that I was at the creek in Sase but that I was

13 some two or three hundred metres away from it. If you should become

14 interested as to the whereabouts of my property, you can go to the land

15 registry service to find out for yourself. But I simply had to go there.

16 I had to go and forage for food to help my family survive.

17 JUDGE HUNT: Now, both of you, you must pause. You really must.

18 Now, madam, I know this is probably the first time you have had to worry

19 about this, but it is impossible for the interpreters to keep up when you

20 answer the question straight away. Now, you came in straight away after

21 the question, and it was a very long question and it was a very long

22 answer. So I really must insist that you do keep in mind the need to

23 pause.

24 Mr. Domazet, you came in with a question pretty quickly there too.

25 MR. DOMAZET:

Page 1244

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 1245

1 Q. [Interpretation] When you spoke about the incident which had taken

2 place before this one, that is, the arrival of Witness VG13 in your house,

3 you told us that it had taken place between the 16th and the 17th of June,

4 in the early morning hours, around 4.00 a.m. Does that mean that it took

5 place in the night of that day, that it took place on the 17th, at 4.00,

6 that that was the first time you met with that witness?

7 A. It took place in the early morning hours, at about 4.00 a.m.

8 Q. In view of what we discussed about the date, does that mean that

9 that took place two days after your crossing over of the Drina River on

10 the 19th of June?

11 JUDGE HUNT: Stop. Just stop. May I suggest to you, madam, that

12 you watch the screen in front of you -- just check to see that the

13 transcript is showing, will you? You'll see a transcript being typed in

14 front of you on the screen. When you see the typing stop, that is the

15 time to answer the question. Do you understand that?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

18 Yes, Mr. Domazet. You'll have to ask the question again, I

19 think. I'm sorry.

20 MR. DOMAZET:

21 Q. [Interpretation] Let me repeat the question, madam. My question

22 concerned the basis on which you concluded these dates, linking them to

23 the 19th of June, when you crossed the Drina. Can we conclude that your

24 sighting of Witness VG13, which you said took place in the night between

25 the 16th and the 17th of June, at 4.00 a.m., was two days before you

Page 1246

1 crossed the Drina River?

2 A. Once again, I have to say that it is very difficult for me to

3 remember. Ten years have gone by. But I know that it took place two or

4 three days, not more than that, because the person VG13 didn't stay longer

5 than that in Kosovo Polje.

6 Q. Very well. Let us now move on to the incident that you described

7 took place five days before the crossover, the incident involving Rasim

8 Torohan. Could you explain to us in greater detail where you and others

9 who were with you were at the time you witnessed this incident, as you

10 described it today.

11 Q. I think I've already said that, and if you listened carefully, you

12 were able to hear everything and record everything.

13 Q. Do you want to answer my question?

14 A. No.

15 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Domazet, may I suggest that if there is any

16 particular matter about which you want further detail, you ask her about

17 it. It was a very general question. I think you'll get perhaps a more

18 helpful attitude if you ask her specifically in relation to any particular

19 matter. This is the professor, is it, who couldn't see? Perhaps you

20 could ask her step-by-step through the story she told.

21 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. Madam, were you present in the field called Gajici, that is, in

23 the area which is situated immediately next to the road leading from

24 Visegrad to Prelovo? Were you in that particular field?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1247

1 Q. You testified today that you were hiding there with some other

2 individuals. Where exactly were you hiding? Behind what structure, under

3 what structure? Could you explain that to us, please.

4 A. I think I have already explained that and described how it was.

5 Q. What was the crop on that field?

6 A. [redacted] One

7 part of it was grass, one part of the field was maize, then I also had

8 some carrots there, I remember, onions, and on the right-hand side there

9 were some bushes.

10 Q. Madam, when you said that "on the right-hand side," do you mean

11 looking from the road or from some other vantage point?

12 A. Well, I think that as you look from the direction of the road.

13 Q. Is your field situated below or above the road Visegrad-Prelovo?

14 A. Below the road.

15 Q. In that part of the village, is Rasim Torohan's house situated

16 there?

17 A. Yes. It was nearby.

18 Q. Was his brother's house located there as well?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Are those houses located between the Visegrad-Prelovo road and the

21 Drina River?

22 A. Near the section of the road leading to Sase, Visegrad-Sase road.

23 Q. Yes, Visegrad-Sase. But between that road and the river, and the

24 Drina; is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1248

1 Q. Is his brother's house near the road, more towards the road,

2 behind Hasim [as interpreted] Torohan's house?

3 A. His brother's house is closer to the road.

4 Q. Could you tell us: When you saw Rasim Torohan, where exactly was

5 he in relation to the houses? Was he on the road, level with the houses?

6 Was he moving towards, in the direction of Visegrad? Where exactly was

7 he?

8 A. Rasim was going towards Kosovo Polje.

9 Q. What about the car, the red Passat car driven by Milan Lukic? Was

10 it driving in the same direction or in the opposite direction?

11 A. When they took him, they drove him in the direction of Visegrad.

12 Q. Yes, but my question concerned the direction in which the car was

13 moving.

14 A. The car was driving ahead of the car where I was, from Visegrad.

15 Q. So you were able to observe that from your field, from the spot

16 where you were at the time?

17 A. I apologise, but --

18 Q. Could you answer my question with yes or no, please.

19 A. No, I'm sorry. I have to apologise because I made a mistake. I

20 linked it up with another incident which took place on the 9th of June. I

21 was able to see everything that was going on, that is, when he was

22 stopped, when they were arguing, when he dropped his glasses, and when he

23 was pushed into the Passat car.

24 Q. Do you remember what the weather was like that day?

25 A. It's hard for me to remember when my father died. Sometimes I

Page 1249

1 have to ask my sister about the date of his death.

2 Q. Yes, madam, but it seems to me that your memory is very well in

3 respect of certain other things that you've been testifying about, so I

4 thought that you might be able to remember the details concerning that

5 particular day as well. However, if you cannot remember, I will not

6 insist.

7 A. If I should start telling you about the details, you know ...

8 Q. Madam, would you please answer my questions. You lived for a very

9 long time in that area, in that ethnically mixed area, so I'm sure you are

10 familiar with some ethnic customs of Serbs. Is it customary for Serbs,

11 for individuals who are in mourning, to sing songs as part of that custom?

12 Is that a Serbian tradition or not?

13 A. I know that they are moaning, they're wailing while at the

14 cemetery, during funerals. I don't know about singing.

15 Q. When you spoke about the first time, that is, when you spoke about

16 the departure of the Uzice Corps, you said that you were stopped in front

17 of Mitar Vasiljevic's house by himself, his wife, and three other

18 uniformed individuals. Do you remember, since you were in front of that

19 house, what the gate of the house looked like, of Mitar Vasiljevic's

20 house, that is? Could you describe it, if that was indeed the location

21 where the incident happened, as you told us.

22 A. Well, as far as I remember, it was a simple wooden gate.

23 Q. Do you know that in the vicinity of that house during the time

24 when the Uzice Corps was there, there was a checkpoint or a barricade

25 where soldiers controlled the traffic? Do you remember that?

Page 1250

1 A. Yes, but it was further below Mitar's house.

2 Q. Yes, but in the vicinity of his house, is that correct, near the

3 house? Madam, I asked you whether it was near the house.

4 A. It was not very near Mitar's house.

5 Q. One further question: Before Mitar Vasiljevic's arrest, did you

6 ever give a statement to any official authority of Bosnia and Herzegovina,

7 that is, the MUP, or maybe to the investigators of the Prosecutor's

8 office, or was it only after his arrest that you gave your statement?

9 A. I don't have to answer that question.

10 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Thank you, madam.

11 This concludes my cross-examination of the witness.

12 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Domazet, you've accepted each time she said she

13 didn't have to answer something. If you want a direction, you're entitled

14 to seek it. It's a matter for you.

15 MR. DOMAZET: No. Thank you.

16 JUDGE HUNT: Well, except for this, Mr. Domazet: If you want to

17 later on ask the Prosecution to accept there's something in her

18 statement which is to the contrary of her evidence, then you have an

19 obligation to put it to the witness herself. You understand that?

20 MR. DOMAZET: Yes.

21 JUDGE HUNT: Very well. And you don't want to get an answer to

22 that question?

23 MR. DOMAZET: Can I ask her after --

24 JUDGE HUNT: No, no. If you want to --

25 MR. DOMAZET: Yes.

Page 1251

1 JUDGE HUNT: -- obtain an acceptance from the Prosecution that

2 there is some inconsistent statement, you have an obligation to put that

3 inconsistent statement to the witness to enable her, if she wishes to, to

4 explain it or to say it's wrongly recorded or whatever. So I think that

5 if you do want to follow that procedure, you will have to ask her the

6 question and I will tell her she has to answer it.

7 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Very well, then, Your Honour. My

8 intention was to do it somewhat later in the proceedings. I will ask the

9 Prosecutor to agree that in the statement that she gave to the

10 investigator --

11 JUDGE HUNT: I'm sorry. I don't think you've understood the

12 problem that I am raising with you. As counsel, and as a matter of

13 fairness, you have an obligation to put an inconsistent statement to the

14 witness if you want to rely upon it later, to give the witness an

15 opportunity of dealing with that inconsistent statement. We're all very

16 well aware of the way in which these statements are taken and the problems

17 that all the translations -- that the procedure goes through, but I think

18 that the fair thing, for you to rely upon it, is to give her the

19 opportunity of dealing with it.

20 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Your Honour, since the witness is

21 refusing to answer those questions concerning individuals who may have

22 been witnesses to what she described today, and I tried to elicit

23 something more about it from the witness, in particular, concerning the

24 incidents that took place between the 14th and the 19th of June, and even

25 after that date, but the witness either avoided those answers or

Page 1252

1 specifically indicated that she didn't want to answer those questions, I

2 don't see any way to pursue the matter further and to insist thereupon,

3 because it is obvious that such is her wish. However, if there is a way,

4 some other way, some other possibility for those names to be mentioned,

5 the names that she refused to indicate, I should like it to be done. I

6 should like to ask for that permission.

7 JUDGE HUNT: Well, Mr. Domazet, what she said at the time was, "I

8 don't have to answer that question," when you asked her who they were.

9 If you had asked me, I would have told the witness that she does have to

10 answer them, and if she doesn't, a great deal less weight will be given to

11 her evidence, because she is denying you the opportunity of testing that

12 evidence, and I'm sure the witness would understand the reasonableness of

13 that. If she has a particular problem with identifying these people, we

14 want to know what that problem is. There may be ways around that problem,

15 and if there aren't, at least we have an explanation. But the attitude

16 which the witness has demonstrated to a number of questions you've asked

17 demonstrates that she believes that she does not have to answer them. I

18 would explain to her, if you asked me to, why she should answer them. But

19 it would be unfair to her not to give her the opportunity of explaining

20 these things so that when we come, in the end, to judge what weight should

21 be given to her evidence, we have that explanation. If she refuses to

22 give that explanation, unfortunately, she will be told that we will have

23 to give less weight to her evidence than we otherwise would have. Now,

24 it's a matter for her whether she wants to help us or not. If she doesn't

25 want to help us, then her evidence will be given less weight.

Page 1253

1 Now, It's after 11.00. I'll simply just explain that to the

2 witness and we'll come back to it after the adjournment.

3 Now, madam, you are here to help the Tribunal, I assume, are you?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I am here, but I simply cannot

5 tell the names of persons who will perhaps one day appear before the Court

6 as witnesses. I don't wish to tell you their names or surnames. I can

7 give that information to whoever needs it, but I cannot be as public and

8 open towards the Defence. I cannot tell the names of potential witnesses.

9 JUDGE HUNT: If you have a valid reason for not giving us their

10 names, then that is a matter we can take into account in judging what

11 weight is to be given to your evidence, but your belief that you can't

12 give them is not sufficient. Now, if you want us to rely upon your

13 evidence, you either give us the names or you give us a proper explanation

14 as to why you can't give the names. It's not a question of who asks you

15 the questions; it's a question of whether you want to help the Tribunal

16 with your evidence.

17 Now, we'll give you some time to think about it. We're going to

18 adjourn until 11.35, and when we resume, either we want you to give us

19 your names or we get from you a valid explanation as to why you can't do

20 it. Merely because the Defence asks, may I suggest to you, is not a valid

21 reason.

22 We'll adjourn now until 11.35.

23 --- Recess taken at 11.06 a.m.

24 --- On resuming at 11.34 a.m.

25 JUDGE HUNT: Now, madam, there are two problems that we have here.

Page 1254

1 First of all, we can understand your diffidence or your wish not to

2 disclose the identity of certain persons, but we do have to know the

3 reasons for it. And I can see no reason why you can't give us those

4 reasons. That's the first thing.

5 The second thing is, you were asked, Did you make a statement to

6 the Prosecution's investigator, and you said you didn't have to answer

7 that question either. Well, that is something you do have to answer. We

8 know very well you made a statement to the Prosecution's investigator. We

9 haven't seen it, but we know you've made one.

10 Then you will be asked, in relation to that, didn't you say

11 something in that statement? Now, my guess is it's something which is

12 inconsistent with what you've already said in evidence here, and there may

13 be a very good reason why you have said something different to what is

14 recorded in that statement. And it is very important, from our point of

15 view, to know why it was different, if it was in fact different, because

16 it may be a very reasonable explanation, and we need to know that in order

17 to know what weight to give to your evidence.

18 Now, it's very important. We have to judge what weight to be

19 given to your evidence because it's going to be contradicted by people

20 being called by the Defence, and we have to, in the end, decide whether

21 your evidence should be accepted. Now, we want to help you to help us,

22 and if your evidence is going to be accepted, we can only be helped by you

23 if you tell us these things.

24 Now, first of all, in relation to the men that were with you on

25 the boat crossing the Drina, that was the first one, wasn't it, Mr.

Page 1255

1 Domazet?

2 MR. DOMAZET: Yes, Your Honour. That was the first one.

3 JUDGE HUNT: Now, you say you don't want to reveal their

4 identity. Can you explain to us why you don't want to? What is it you

5 fear? For their safety or something like that?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, I didn't understand

7 that the question was about the men who were crossing the boat. I

8 understood it to be the men on the 18th who were looking when Rasim was

9 taken away. As for the men who were crossing in the boat on the 19th,

10 there's no problem there. On that day, the whole population of Kosovo

11 Polje crossed the Drina River.

12 JUDGE HUNT: So that when you were speaking of some men on the

13 boat, it just was part of the population of your locality or place where

14 you used to live?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was one boat that would cross,

16 and then it would come back to pick up another group, and it maybe made

17 three or four crossings, because 150 people couldn't get into one boat.

18 JUDGE HUNT: Right. Well, then, if you were asked to name some of

19 those persons, you would be able to do so; is that so?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can remember some names, judging

21 by the households, the names of the people who crossed on the 19th of

22 June. So if necessary, I can name the households, the families.

23 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

24 Now, the second thing was in relation to the statement which you

25 gave. Now, you said you didn't want to answer that. Do you understand

Page 1256

1 now that you really should answer that question and you will then be asked

2 some questions about what is recorded in that statement? Are you prepared

3 to answer those questions?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Do you mean on the 19th, the people

5 crossing by boat?

6 JUDGE HUNT: No, no. I myself do not know what it is that Mr.

7 Domazet wants to ask you about, but he will want to put to you something

8 which is recorded in this statement as having been said by you to the

9 Prosecution's investigators. Now, do you have any problem with answering

10 those questions? You'll be shown the document, if you need to have it, to

11 check what is written in it, but you had said previously you weren't going

12 to answer those questions. Are you able to say now that you will answer

13 those questions?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15 JUDGE HUNT: Well, thank you very much.

16 Mr. Domazet.

17 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, but I would

18 ask you for your assistance again, because a moment ago, when you put your

19 first question to the witness, the witness answered that she could give

20 the names of the people who crossed by boat on the 19th to the other bank

21 of the Drina River. But that was not my question. I was not referring to

22 those men on the 19th of May. I was referring to those who, two days

23 later, were with her when they were collecting honey, and allegedly saw

24 Mitar Vasiljevic and Planincic singing and walking along the road. The

25 witness said that a group of men was with her, and my question was in

Page 1257

1 relation to those men who were with her that evening, who they were, and

2 not what the witness said a moment ago.

3 JUDGE HUNT: Well, I'm very sorry, but I did ask you whether that

4 was what you were after and you gave me your assent. That's why I took it

5 up with the witness. Now, you want, then, to these ones on the 19th of

6 June -- was it the 19th of June? 21st of June. One moment.

7 MR. DOMAZET: Yes, Your Honour, the incident the 21 of June.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would be glad to give the names of

9 the men who were with me, but in view of the fact that I assume that those

10 men will appear before the Tribunal, because of their personal safety and

11 revealing their identity, I would not like to mention their names. That

12 is the only reason.

13 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Groome, are these people witnesses in the case?

14 MR. GROOME: No, Your Honour. I'm just going to ask if that the

15 witness is going to name these people, that we go into private session.

16 JUDGE HUNT: Well, certainly, yes, but I'm still looking for it in

17 the transcript as to when the question was asked. Have you got any

18 reference to it, Mr. Domazet? I remember the questions, but I want to

19 make sure that we're all talking about the same thing this time.

20 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I believe we've found it. It's at the

21 end of page 19.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much. That's her evidence-in-chief,

23 though.

24 MR. GROOME: I'm sorry, Your Honour. That's my mistake. We're

25 looking for the cross now.

Page 1258

1 Your Honours, it's at the top of page 41.

2 Please disregard that, Your Honour.

3 MS. BAUER: I think the first answer of the witness was on line 12

4 of page 27.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. I was just on that page when I was

6 diverted to 41.

7 MS. BAUER: Sorry. At the end of 25, not 27.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

9 Now, these are the questions:

10 Q. It was on that day that you said that you saw

11 this large group of men taking honey from the beehive

12 belonging to the individual that you've mentioned?

13 A. Yes, including myself and a couple of other women

14 and Bosniak men, because we didn't have any sugar. We

15 wanted to use the honey to take it to the left bank of

16 the Drina River so that we have something to eat, to

17 survive on.

18 Q. Were you all together while crossing the river? Did

19 you cross it by boat?

20 A. We crossed the river in two or three groups in boats

21 which were completely packed because we had to be at the

22 river, by the river, at a specific time so that we could

23 cross over together at the same time.

24 Q. Do you remember the names of the men who were with

25 you on that occasion?

Page 1259

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 1260

1 Now, is that the one that you're worried about, Mr. Domazet? That

2 is the one that she declined to answer.

3 MR. DOMAZET: Yes, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE HUNT: Well, it's not exactly tied, as far as I can see it,

5 to any particular incident of having seen your client. I'm glad to see

6 that my recollection of it wasn't all that faulty, although I may have had

7 the wrong crossing. If you want to pursue this issue, may I suggest you

8 ask the questions again, the ones that you want answered, and then if the

9 witness says she can't or does not wish to identify any particular person,

10 we will then give her the opportunity of explaining why. But perhaps

11 before you do that, I should say this to the witness:

12 Is your fear that, by disclosing their names, they might be

13 brought here as witnesses? Is that what you're worried about?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not worried in the least as to

15 the willingness of these people to say what they know here in the

16 Tribunal, but if I were to give the names of those men who know what I

17 know, I fear for their safety, because those men just now are down there

18 and they are building their houses in Visegrad, or they are coming and

19 going to visit what remains of their homes which were burnt down.

20 JUDGE HUNT: Well, perhaps I better put it to you directly: Are

21 you concerned that there is somebody in Visegrad who may retaliate if they

22 are going to give evidence in this case?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I fear for every returnee, not just

24 witnesses, because the situation in Visegrad is still far from civilised.

25 JUDGE HUNT: And they are returning to live in Visegrad?

Page 1261

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They are returning and they are

2 building houses, and they are coming and going. And I do believe that

3 every witness who is called and who has seen and knows what he knows will

4 respond to a call from the Tribunal, and it is for those reasons that I

5 would not like to give the first and last names of those people.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Am I correct in understanding you as saying that you

7 believe that they would want to give evidence?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know who those witnesses

9 are, but all those people who saw and experienced everything I know, and

10 maybe more than that, will certainly come to the Tribunal to tell the

11 truth.

12 JUDGE HUNT: Well, if you think that they are willing to give that

13 evidence, what is your fear in revealing who they would be?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me be quite frank, because that

15 is my nature. If the Defence of Mr. Vasiljevic is here who can use his

16 mobile telephone tonight and say the names of these people, then I fear

17 that those witnesses, if they are witnesses, will not dare to come here,

18 and they will have to abandon Visegrad for good.

19 JUDGE HUNT: Now I understand you. Thank you.

20 Yes, Mr. Domazet. I realise there was an insinuation against you

21 which is understandable, perhaps, to somebody who is ignorant of the

22 responsibilities of counsel, but it's not only you who that fear would

23 be related to. That is one of the problems that we face very regularly in

24 this Tribunal.

25 It means, of course, that the incident is untested, and for that

Page 1262

1 reason it may, unless it's otherwise supported, may have less weight in

2 the overall evidence in the case. But may I suggest that, first of all,

3 you take her to her statement. I don't know whether there's anything in

4 her statement about this.

5 MR. DOMAZET: Yes, Your Honour, but Mr. Groome is standing up.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Sorry, Mr. Groome.

7 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, may I offer just a practical solution.

8 One possibility would be for, after the witness's testimony, to provide

9 those names confidentially, and after the Prosecution has rested its case

10 and in the break before the Defence case, the Prosecution would take steps

11 to have these witnesses brought to the UN office in Sarajevo and make

12 them available for Mr. Domazet to interview these people, if he would

13 like.

14 JUDGE HUNT: I'm not sure that that will meet the witness's

15 concerns, but if you have any such suggestion, we can deal with that

16 later. At the moment, from my own point of view, I would not ask the

17 witness to identify them here in court, whatever may happen in other

18 circumstances.

19 MR. GROOME: Yes.

20 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Domazet, what about the statement?

21 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I will ask

22 the witness a few things in connection with her statement.

23 Q. First of all, I have to ask once again, and I hope I will get an

24 answer: Did you give a statement to the investigator of The Hague

25 Tribunal in January this year?

Page 1263

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did you give any statements or reports in connection with things

3 that happened in Visegrad to anybody, any other institution?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Are you referring to the Office of the Prosecutor of this Tribunal

6 in The Hague?

7 A. No one even dreamt that there would be this Tribunal, or any

8 other, for that matter.

9 Q. But my question was whether you gave a statement to the

10 investigator of the Office of the Prosecution; once or several times?

11 A. Twice.

12 Q. Apart from the statement in January of this year, when was the

13 other one?

14 A. I think both were in January.

15 Q. So that is one and the same statement. And who did you make

16 statements to prior to that?

17 A. I wouldn't like to answer that question if I don't have to.

18 JUDGE HUNT: Madam, this is a very fair question to ask of you.

19 There are cases, and I'm not suggesting it has happened here, that

20 witnesses elaborate their stories; they tell one version to the

21 Prosecution's investigator, they tell another story to the MUP, and then

22 they come along here in court and tell a third story. That's very

23 relevant to know what weight should be given to that witness's evidence.

24 I repeat: I'm not suggesting that's what happened here. But the Defence

25 counsel is entitled to ask whether you have given any other statements to

Page 1264

1 anybody else. Now, you've given one to the Prosecution. Did you give one

2 to anybody else: That's the question. Is there some problem that you

3 have with answering that?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that I did make a statement

5 in 1993.

6 JUDGE HUNT: And is there some problem in telling us to whom you

7 made that statement?

8 A. No, there's no problem, because it is a man who, on his own

9 initiative, investigated the suffering of Bosniaks in Visegrad

10 municipality. He took it down in an ordinary book and he interviewed

11 people about what they had experienced.

12 JUDGE HUNT: Are you able to tell us his name?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Unfortunately, that man has died.

14 His name was Mesanovic.

15 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Domazet.

16 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation]

17 Q. So if I understood your last answer properly, you made a statement

18 to this gentleman, Mr. Mesanovic, who was writing a book, but you didn't

19 give any statements to the MUP authorities of Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that

20 right?

21 A. I don't remember at all that any MUP institutions took any

22 statements.

23 Q. But you would probably remember if you had been interviewed by

24 anyone from the MUP of Bosnia-Herzegovina or that you had signed such a

25 statement.

Page 1265

1 A. I did not give a statement in the MUP, but there were commissions

2 for the investigation of war crimes against Bosniaks.

3 Q. Did you mention the name of Mitar Vasiljevic in your earlier

4 statements, including your statement to this gentleman Mesanovic?

5 A. To Mesanovic I did not, but about Mitar, I did.

6 Q. Madam, if Mesanovic is the only one you gave statements to apart

7 from the investigator of this Tribunal, if you say that you didn't talk

8 about Mitar Vasiljevic to him, then to whom did you speak about Mitar

9 Vasiljevic?

10 A. I have already told you that there was a commission for the

11 investigation of war crimes - that was the name of the commission - for

12 the area of Drina.

13 Q. I have to ask you again: Did you give them any statement

14 regarding the incidents in Visegrad during the war?

15 A. I have to tell you now that [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 Q. Madam, I asked about you, yourself, personally. Did you make any

19 statement?

20 A. I can't remember.

21 Q. Thank you. Let me now ask you a few questions about this

22 statement of yours, which I assume you remember, because it was in January

23 this year. I looked through it carefully after your testimony today, and

24 in the statement I did not find anywhere you mention seeing the group from

25 Koritnik on the 14th of June. Is it true that in your statement you did

Page 1266

1 not mention that?

2 A. Let me tell you: At the time, I was giving a statement only about

3 victim number 13 and the condition she was in and how I saw her, but I'm

4 now telling what I saw in the morning that they went by, and Igbala

5 Kurspahic from Kosovo Polje joined them, and who, with the villagers from

6 Koritnik, was burnt in the same house.

7 Q. Madam, I have listened to your testimony today. Do you agree with

8 me that you did not mention that particular fact in the statement that you

9 gave to the investigator of The Hague Prosecution office?

10 A. If it is not mentioned in the statement, then it means that I did

11 not state it in the statement. However, I repeat once again that I saw

12 them coming from the direction of Sase towards Visegrad, a group of 50 or

13 60 people.

14 Q. You have told us today that VG13 had told you about the persons

15 who took part in the fire, and you said, first of all, if not only, Mitar

16 Vasiljevic. That is not contained in your statement to the investigator

17 of the Tribunal, that the witness VG13 had indeed told you that. Do you

18 agree with me that that is not mentioned in your statement?

19 A. I don't know what is written in this January statement, but I wish

20 to state before this Honourable Chamber that the victim number 13

21 mentioned Milan Lukic, Mitar Vasiljevic, and Bosko Djuric.

22 Q. Yes, madam. You have stated that today. However, you did not

23 mention that particular fact in the statement given to the investigator.

24 Do you agree with me on that?

25 A. Right now I cannot even remember what is written in there, but it

Page 1267

1 probably -- the victim number 13 will tell you about her experiences. I'm

2 just telling you what I heard, but I did not see when it happened.

3 Q. Also in your statement, when you spoke about Rasim Torohan, you

4 said that he was going towards Visegrad in the statement to the

5 investigator. Today you testified that he was going in the opposite

6 direction, that is, towards Sase. Do you remember having declared that to

7 the investigator?

8 A. I don't know whether you've had an opportunity to be in the area

9 of Visegrad since 1992, and if you experience death occurring before your

10 very eyes, sometimes it seems to you that he's going towards the town,

11 sometimes in the opposite direction, sometimes towards the woods, in order

12 to save his life. I know that he was pushed into the car and that he was

13 taken in the direction of Visegrad, sir.

14 Q. Am I correct in understanding you that, because of what you have

15 just stated, you cannot be sure as to the direction he was going to?

16 Because if we take into account your fear at the time and the overall

17 situation.

18 A. Once again I have to tell you: If you're witnessing death before

19 your very eyes... The man had just lost his glasses. He was thrown

20 into the car. He was going towards Visegrad. And it's so difficult,

21 because all these images, maybe a dozen of them, are happening at the same

22 time before your very eyes.

23 Q. Very well, madam. I can really understand that. But does it mean

24 that in view of the fact that you have given two different statements

25 concerning the event, that you cannot be sure whether he was going towards

Page 1268

1 Visegrad or in the opposite direction, that is, towards Sase? Can I

2 interpret your answer in that way, for the reasons that you have just

3 indicated?

4 A. Since his house was close by, in my opinion, he was trying to find

5 shelter in Kosovo Polje, so he was going towards Kosovo Polje. He was

6 walking in the direction of Kosovo Polje at the moment it happened. He

7 was probably turning around, looking for help, asking for help.

8 Q. Madam, he was on the road, he was walking along the road, so I

9 don't see how you can say that he was trying to find shelter. He was on

10 the road. In the statement given to the investigator, you stated that he

11 was walking towards Visegrad. Today you have stated something different.

12 I want to know whether you could clearly see that, whether you could

13 clearly see that once when he was pushed into the car, where he was taken

14 to, in which direction, towards Visegrad or the other one, or if you

15 cannot tell us that.

16 A. For me, the most important is the way in which he was taken away

17 and the fact that Professor Torohan has never come back, has never been

18 seen since then.

19 Q. Yes, but you haven't answered my question. If you wish to answer

20 my question, you can at least tell me whether you remember that that is

21 what you stated to the investigator, that he was walking toward Visegrad.

22 A. Well, if that's what's stated there, then it means that that is

23 what I stated. But try to put yourself in my shoes. Would you really be

24 turning around and looking at death happening before your very eyes?

25 Q. Yes, but in that case you can tell us that you don't know, if

Page 1269

1 those were the reasons that you didn't see --

2 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Domazet, look, I really think that we've spent

3 enough time on this. The statement will speak for itself, and the

4 importance of this particular matter is so minute, it's not worth this

5 sort of pressure. Is there anything further you want to ask her?

6 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Yes, I agree, Your Honour. The same

7 event is described in the statement to the effect that the witness was in

8 a cornfield in Kosovo Polje. That is in the statement that she gave to

9 the investigator. Today she told us that she was in the woods.

10 Q. I don't know whether that exists in your field, and is it true,

11 Witness, that you were in the cornfield on the 18th of June?

12 A. Well, I'm really sorry that the fall is nearing its end, but -- so

13 I'm not able to take you there. There was a cornfield in Kosovo Polje,

14 the Black Locust Wood, also and everything the way I described it.

15 Q. Is it true that you told the investigator that you had been in a

16 cornfield on that occasion?

17 A. Counsel, the cornfield is next to the Acacia wood. It is linked,

18 it is connected with that piece of land.

19 Q. Very well. And just one more question, Your Honour.

20 In your statement, madam, [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]. What is the name of that place and where exactly was that house?

23 A. I don't know whether you have been in Rujiste in [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 1270

1 [redacted], and all other villages in the municipality of

2 Visegrad.

3 Q. I was only interested about his house.

4 A. I know where it is. I know where he was born, I know exactly

5 where his new house in town is. I know everything.

6 Q. [redacted]

7 [redacted].

8 A. Well, you go down the hill, you pass through the meadow, and you

9 get to his grandmother's house, and there's a very old house next to it,

10 and it's the adjacent house.

11 Q. Thank you. And I'm sorry, just one more question about an event

12 which was not described in the statement, that is, the event which took

13 place on the third day of Kurban -- I'm sorry. On the eve of Kurban

14 Bajram, the day before. You said that Mitar was singing something about

15 the meat that is customarily eaten on the Muslim holiday. You did not

16 describe that event in your statement. Do you remember that?

17 A. Sir, if I had spoken about everything that I know and everything

18 that I saw, the Tribunal wouldn't be finished with me for three days. On

19 the 10th of June, 1992, all of the residents of Kosovo Polje were able to

20 see, to observe, because they were all herded in one group. They could

21 see Mitar Vasiljevic in Gajic, standing -- driving -- on the left of the

22 driver, in the passenger's seat, carrying a black flag with skull

23 and bones on it --

24 Q. Madam, I am not asking you about that. You have spoken about that

25 during your testimony today. I just wanted to know whether that incident

Page 1283

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Could you please take a look around in the courtroom and describe

3 where the person sits and what he is wearing, without, please, standing

4 up.

5 A. He's sitting in the last row, next to the wall. He has a greyish

6 suit. I can't see very well from here.

7 MS. BAUER: May the record --

8 Q. Can you maybe --

9 A. And he's got headphones on his head.

10 MS. BAUER: Could the record reflect that the witness identified

11 the accused, Your Honour?

12 JUDGE HUNT: Well, the colour of the suit is not quite right.

13 MS. BAUER: I know.

14 JUDGE HUNT: But he's the only one in the back row that is wearing

15 a suit. The security guard is wearing a shirt. I think we can agree,

16 can't we, Mr. Domazet? Yes, she pointed to the accused.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't see well from here.

18 MS. BAUER: Don't worry, Witness 78.

19 Q. When you saw this person, Mitar Vasiljevic, there at the hotel for

20 the first time, what did you see him doing?

21 A. Well, he was telling us where we should go for the night, because

22 the buses had left for Kladanj, and they said that we should go to Mahala,

23 to spend the night wherever we wanted in those houses, and he went with us

24 with another two or three persons whom I didn't know --

25 Q. Could you stop for a moment, please. You said he was telling you

Page 1284

1 to go spend the night in some houses. What was Mitar Vasiljevic wearing

2 that day? Can you recall that?

3 A. I remember he had a greyish coat and a hat on his head and a

4 uniform underneath the coat, and he had a rifle on his shoulder.

5 Q. Was there anything covering his face?

6 A. No.

7 Q. When you saw Mitar Vasiljevic at the hotel, how far away were you

8 from him at that time? Maybe you want to look towards the Judges and say

9 was it closer than the Judges, further away than the Judges, or about the

10 distance from the Judges?

11 A. About ten steps away. When he walked up to slap a person, she

12 said something and he went up to her and slapped her, and then he moved

13 away. He was walking around in front of the hotel.

14 Q. You said he told you to go to a certain settlement in Nova

15 Mahala -- in Mahala, sorry. Is Pionirska Street --

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. -- part of Mahala?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You also said that he accompanied you. Was he --

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. -- alone?

22 A. No. There were two or three others. I knew them by sight but not

23 by name, so I didn't really know who they were.

24 Q. Was Mitar Vasiljevic dressed in the same clothes that you just saw

25 him at the hotel, Visegrad?

Page 1285

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Was he still armed?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Was there anything disguising his face at that point?

5 A. No.

6 Q. And where would he walk? Would he walk right beside you or in

7 front of you?

8 A. Beside us and in front of us. He was accompanying the column.

9 Q. You said it was a column. Was it a column by lines or

10 individuals? What was the column like?

11 A. In line, one behind the other.

12 Q. Was VG101 at that time with you?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Could you have touched Mitar Vasiljevic from where you were

15 walking?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Did there come a point in time that you stopped on Pionirska

18 Street?

19 A. We stopped when we reached the settlement in front of the houses,

20 and then we entered those houses and that is where we put up, in two

21 houses.

22 Q. Did anybody tell you to enter those houses?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Who told you to enter these houses?

25 A. Mitar Vasiljevic said, "Go in there. You will spend the night

Page 1286

1 there." He said it, and the men with him, and we got in and settled down.

2 Q. In reference to the school on Pionirska Street, approximately, did

3 you pass the whole school or did you just see the school? Was it across

4 the school? Where were those houses?

5 A. We passed by the school, and those houses were left of the school,

6 to the left of the school. Jusuf Memic's house was the one we were in,

7 and the other house, the surname was Delija, the family name. So we were

8 in those two houses.

9 Q. The larger group was in which house?

10 A. In Jusuf Memic's house.

11 Q. Did you stay throughout the time on the ground floor of that

12 house?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. How many rooms were in that house?

15 A. Two rooms, a kitchen and a corridor. And there was an attic, but

16 there was no one up there. We were just in those two rooms and in the

17 kitchen and in the hallway.

18 Q. Would you give your best estimate; how much time would you say

19 elapsed from when you came from the hotel to the place where -- to the

20 house where you stayed?

21 A. I think about 45 minutes, something like that. We spent a little

22 time down there, then we moved over. Something like that.

23 Q. Mitar Vasiljevic, did he stay with you or did he leave?

24 A. First he went into the house and took out three persons, and then

25 he brought them back, after about an hour, not even that. And after that,

Page 1287

1 I didn't see him in the house, but one person said Mitar Vasiljevic is

2 calling people to come out to give some kind of a certificate, and that if

3 anyone were to come, he should be told, and that no one must bother us,

4 and that we would be the first to leave by bus to Kladanj. And then I saw

5 these people coming into the house and taking this note.

6 Q. Could we please stop there for a moment. Who told you that Mitar

7 Vasiljevic issued a safety passage?

8 A. A person from my village, a woman who was with us, and she said

9 that he was calling out a person to go out. She didn't go, but this other

10 person went. And then they got this note for safe passage, that we would

11 be the first to go in the morning to Kladanj.

12 Q. Did she tell you to whom he might have given this card?

13 A. I don't know exactly who he gave it to. I know that people went

14 out and brought back this certificate, this document.

15 Q. Did you see this certificate?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Did you know a certain Milan Lukic?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And where did you know him from?

20 A. [redacted]

21 [redacted]. So that is how I knew him.

22 Q. Did there come a time that afternoon that Milan Lukic arrived?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. How much later was this in relation to the last time you saw Mitar

25 Vasiljevic?

Page 1288

1 A. About an hour later, maybe less. I can't remember exactly.

2 Q. Was it still light outside or already dark?

3 A. It was light.

4 Q. Did Milan Lukic request you to take -- to give away all your

5 valuables, including money, gold, and watches?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did everybody have to give away whatever they had on themselves?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did you have a watch at that time?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Did you see anybody else at that time, apart from Milan Lukic?

12 A. No.

13 Q. What did he do, apart from taking your valuables?

14 A. He came to the door and said, "Give us money and gold. If we find

15 any on anyone, we will cut your throat and cut off your fingers." And he

16 took out a young girl from the village of Musici, and he took her away and

17 I didn't see her again.

18 Q. Was this woman previously said to have been raped by Milan Lukic?

19 A. Yes.

20 JUDGE HUNT: These Perhaps were not terribly much at issue, Ms.

21 Bauer, but there's been a series of leading questions over the last page.

22 May I suggest you let the witness give the evidence.

23 MS. BAUER: Yes.

24 Q. When Milan Lukic left, did there come a time when a group of men

25 came back later that evening?

Page 1289

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 1290

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Who were these men?

3 A. They were the same ones who were there during the daytime. They

4 told us to get out of this house, to go to another one. They wanted to

5 search our things, allegedly to see if there were any weapons. And that

6 is how we came out, one by one, and crossing from one house to the other.

7 With VG101, I managed to escape, to run away, and so I didn't stay there

8 any longer.

9 Q. When those men arrived, were they outside or inside the house?

10 A. No. In front of the door they were. They were between the two

11 houses, watching the people as they were moving into the other house. One

12 was in front of the house, with a rifle. He had a moustache. I don't

13 remember his name. I just noticed his face as I was leaving this house.

14 Q. Did you recognise any of these men?

15 A. I saw Milan Lukic and Mitar Vasiljevic walking between the two

16 houses. They were not in front of this house which I was leaving, but

17 over there next to the other house. But I ran away, together with VG101.

18 I hid behind the shed and then went down to a creek and through the woods,

19 as far away as I could from the town.

20 Q. What did Mitar Vasiljevic wear at that time?

21 A. What he wore in front of the hotel: this coat and a hat. I just

22 saw him for a moment, his profile, in front of the house.

23 Q. It was dark. Was there any lights outside the house?

24 A. There was. There was a light and you could see everything; it was

25 lit up.

Page 1291

1 Q. Where did you stand when you saw Mitar Vasiljevic?

2 A. I was standing at the edge of the shed. I was about to leave, and

3 I cast a glance that way. I heard the grass moving, and together with

4 VG101, I followed her, and that is how we managed to escape.

5 Q. When you turned around to take a glance, what did the person Mitar

6 Vasiljevic do?

7 A. He was walking around with those men of his. They were

8 supervising the people moving. He was looking more towards that house

9 than towards this one where we were.

10 Q. If you say "this one" and "that one," you mean -- which house do

11 you mean? He stood closer to the house you were let out or closer to the

12 other house where you were supposed to be let in?

13 A. Closer to the house that we were supposed to be let into, not over

14 here.

15 MS. BAUER: I would ask to go into another private session for

16 introduction of a document.

17 JUDGE HUNT: I think it would be preferable if we took a break now

18 and you can do that on Monday.

19 We will resume at 9.30 on Monday. We will now adjourn.

20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.57 p.m.,

21 to be reconvened on Monday, the 1st day of

22 October, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.