091009ED

Page 1138

1 MS. KORNER: The only thing I'm asking, Your Honours, is I'm

2 afraid that -- maybe the court clerk can assist. We are having problems

3 getting to e-court at the moment, and I can't remember which document I'd

4 got to yesterday.

5 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter number 717.

6 MS. KORNER: 717, thank you.

7 [The witness takes the stand]

8 JUDGE HALL: Good morning, sir, I would remind you that you are

9 still under oath.

10 WITNESS: NEDJELKO DJEKANOVIC [Resumed]

11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 Examination by Ms. Korner: [Continued]

13 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, I'm told that I haven't exhibited

14 yesterday's -- I have exhibited it. Thank you.

15 And could I have up, please, very briefly 65 ter 719.

16 Q. Mr. Djekanovic, this is simply to note, isn't it, that on the

17 7th of July, effectively in accordance with instructions that came, I

18 think, from the Main Board or from the government, the Crisis Staff - we

19 can see it; this is set out in item 3 - was renamed the War Presidency,

20 but effectively the members remained the same.

21 A. I cannot say with certainty whether every person remained on the

22 Presidency. I also cannot explain why the term was changed from

23 Crisis Staff to War Presidency, because shortly afterwards, the executive

24 organs became functional again, including the Municipal Assembly.

25 Q. Yes, don't worry why, but this is purely so that the

Page 1139

1 Trial Chamber -- we are going to hear some more evidence about it to

2 understand what happened.

3 MS. KORNER: Could that be made an exhibit, please.

4 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P87, Your Honours.

6 MS. KORNER: Right. Could we have up, please, 65 ter number 720.

7 Q. Again another extract from the minutes, this time, as we see,

8 called the War Presidency, following day. And it says in item 1, the

9 work of the SJB -- due to problems in the work of the SJB, a decision has

10 been made to use the hall in the Pilana, the sawmill temporarily as a

11 prison, and he recommended that all detained persons be transferred

12 there. Can we take it from that that there were so many prisoners that

13 the prison that you pointed out in Kotor Varos and the police station

14 couldn't hold them?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Bad question by me. No what? Is that right, that there were too

17 many prisoners?

18 JUDGE HARHOFF: Ms. Korner, you are just on the edge of putting

19 leading questions to this witness. And he is still just a normal

20 viva voce witness, so I guess we should ask the witness what he makes out

21 of this.

22 MS. KORNER: Certainly, sir.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have already explained the issue

24 of Pilana, there is no proof that any detainees spent prolonged periods

25 of time in Pilana, those who were accommodated there spent only a short

Page 1140

1 time there and were mainly brought in for security reasons. As for any

2 grammatical or stylistic errors of the minutes, this is something I

3 cannot comment upon. But I know for certain that Pilana was not a prison

4 in which detainees were held for long periods of time. It was rather

5 used a as point from which they were sent onwards or to the other side.

6 MS. KORNER:

7 Q. Okay. That wasn't my question. That's why leading questions are

8 sometimes helpful. What was the reason, however, that there had to be a

9 temporary prison?

10 A. I explained that yesterday. The reason was that people in the

11 field were left unprotected, and frequently they came in themselves

12 seeking protection. One of the main reasons why people were put in

13 Pilana was precisely that.

14 Q. So it's these people, and they included women and children, is

15 that right, were being put into the sawmill for their own protection?

16 A. For the most part, yes.

17 Q. And what, to your knowledge, sir, happened to the women in the

18 sawmill?

19 A. As all other detainees they only spent a few days in Pilana until

20 there was a suitable transport or convoy for them to go to the other side

21 or to be exchanged.

22 Q. Did anything, to your knowledge, sir, happen to the women who

23 were in the sawmill, for however short a period of time?

24 A. At that time I knew of no incidents. Much, much later, I heard

25 that there were one or two rapings. I don't know what the exact figure

Page 1141

1 was, but I'm certain that it did not occur in great numbers and that it

2 did not happen to all the women.

3 Q. Why are you certain it didn't happen in great numbers?

4 A. I'm absolutely certain of that.

5 Q. But I'm asking you why you have such certainty?

6 A. Because it didn't happen that way, and it was not a mass

7 occurrence.

8 Q. How do you know that, sir? Were you there at the sawmill?

9 A. No, I never went to Pilana. I told you already that I know that

10 people did not spend long periods of time there, that they left rather

11 quickly, and I know from the people who were in charge that such things

12 did not happen on mass. I cannot confirm for the one or two cases of

13 rape, I don't even know who did that, but what I heard was that there

14 were one or two incidents of that kind.

15 Q. And who did you hear that from?

16 A. From this position I cannot tell you with certainty who I heard

17 it from. I don't know.

18 Q. Was this report -- well, Savo Tepic was in charge of the police,

19 wasn't he? Did he tell you about it?

20 A. It is true that Savo Tepic was in charge of the police, but I

21 don't know whether he told me that.

22 Q. All right.

23 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Witness -- sorry, Mr. Djekanovic, good

24 morning.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

Page 1142

1 JUDGE HARHOFF: I think I heard you say that the people who were

2 kept at Pilana, for the largest part of them, they came at their own free

3 will to seek protection; is that correct? Did I understand you

4 correctly?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, one could say so. They

6 didn't arrive in Pilana. They came before the municipal building in town

7 seeking protection. Some of them were even brought in, in an organised

8 fashion to protect them. Some of them were accommodated in the hotel,

9 but then there were too many of them and the hotel was shelled, hence

10 Pilana was mostly used for the accommodation of precisely those people.

11 JUDGE HARHOFF: Then why is it that the minutes of this exhibit

12 show that Pilana was used temporarily as a prison?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In terms of terminology, I don't

14 know why someone used the word "prison." Several facilities were used to

15 that end for a few evenings --

16 JUDGE HARHOFF: Sir, you signed the minutes?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Although there is no

18 signature of mine, but yes, there you go.

19 JUDGE HARHOFF: So they were words that you had either chosen or

20 accepted, namely to classify the Pilana sawmill as a prison?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is true that it says that it was

22 a prison. I do not dispute that. But I don't know to what end it was

23 used. If there is additional proof that people spent prolonged period of

24 time there and were detained there, then I will accept that, but I can

25 tell you that they were not kept for long periods of time there and that

Page 1143

1 they were mainly brought in for the reasons I specified.

2 It is possible that there were detainees per se, but again, even

3 they stayed shortly. And in particular, children and women were never

4 detained. They were never detainees; they were never kept in custody.

5 JUDGE HARHOFF: And did you know whether any separation was made

6 between those who were detained and those who came at their own free

7 will?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I have no knowledge of that.

9 MS. KORNER:

10 Q. One final question on this aspect. When you heard, whoever you

11 heard from, that women had been raped, did you raise the matter with

12 either Savo Tepic or in any meetings that you had with Stojan Zupljanin?

13 A. With full responsibility I claim that concerning this incident,

14 the one or two incidents, I heard only half a year or full year later. I

15 was not aware of it as it was taking place. It could be that I only

16 heard of it a full year later.

17 Q. Right. And there in the second part of item 1 Dubocanin tells

18 you that a decision has been made for the special unit to withdraw from

19 Kotor Varos; is that right? Tells the War Presidency.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did he tell you who had made that decision?

22 A. No, he did not, and we did not insist upon knowing.

23 Q. Right.

24 MS. KORNER: Could that be made an exhibit, please.

25 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.

Page 1144

1 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P88 Your Honours.

2 MS. KORNER: Next could we have up 65 ter number 723.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, for the sake of full

4 truth, I wanted to say that the special unit that most questions referred

5 to was never used to guard or secure Pilana. I wish to make that known.

6 The members of the Special Police unit did not guard or secure Pilana.

7 They did not guard other secure any other facilities, save for those

8 where they were billeted.

9 MS. KORNER:

10 Q. How do you know that?

11 A. I told you that in the course of the proofing as well. I told

12 you they were not trained for that, and they did not wish to stand guard

13 or secure facilities. It was not their intention.

14 Q. I'm sorry, you didn't tell me anything in proofing because I

15 didn't proof you. But, sorry, it doesn't matter who you told or what,

16 but what -- why -- sorry, start this one again.

17 How do you know that they were not trained for that, did not wish

18 to stand guard?

19 A. We discussed that topic on several occasions, and I know that

20 along -- even along the axis or lines of attack which they pursued, they

21 refused to stand guard once they had taken up any territory, so they

22 would go into combat and come back. They always disliked securing or

23 standing guard anywhere.

24 Q. As a matter of interest, Mr. Djekanovic, have you spoken to

25 anybody overnight about this evidence?

Page 1145

1 A. No, no one. Yesterday, for example, I took a walk to the beach

2 and saw no one, spoke to no one.

3 Q. That will do. We looked yesterday at a number of documents where

4 there were complaints about what the Special Police were doing to the

5 prisoners at the SJB. Do you remember all those documents? The minutes

6 of your meetings?

7 A. All the documents we went through yesterday is something that I

8 use to jog my memory, but I don't leaf through them every day. Once I

9 came here and as I was getting ready for the testimony, I did go through

10 some of them, and of course those I saw yesterday served as a reminder.

11 Q. Look, I really don't want to rehearse all of yesterday's

12 evidence, but you agreed what was being raised at the Crisis Staff

13 meeting was the complaints about the behaviour of the Special Police

14 which included beating up prisoners who were being held in the SJB and

15 elsewhere. Now, are you now saying that is not so?

16 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think it's better

17 for Ms. Korner to show the exact document to the witness. What she is

18 now quoting to the witness is not something you can find in any

19 documents. The witness did not speak to this part. Perhaps she should

20 provide a transcript reference or the document she has in mind, otherwise

21 I contest that such things were not said in this way before this Tribunal

22 yesterday.

23 MS. KORNER: That is my recollection. I do not have the time now

24 because I'm anxious to finish with this witness in chief, but I will,

25 however, find the part of the transcript yesterday when I finish my

Page 1146

1 examination-in-chief. But I'm sure it's a matter for the recollection of

2 the Trial Chamber whatever Defence counsel may say.

3 Q. Now, are you saying now, Mr. Djekanovic, let's very clearly

4 understand you, that as far as you are concerned, the Special Police

5 never stood as guards over people who had been captured or brought into

6 the prisons and the sawmill?

7 A. I claim that in full responsibility, and I repeat for umpteenth

8 time, the special unit did not stand guard or secure those facilities.

9 Q. Whether they were officially on guard or securing the facilities,

10 to your knowledge, did they go to those places of imprisonment?

11 A. Who went where individually, that is something I truly don't

12 know. They did go to the police station, I know that much. In the

13 health centre, they had their accommodation. As for their visits to the

14 sawmill, I don't know about that. I don't know whether there's any

15 proof. I know, though, that in the sawmill, save for the few incidents

16 you mentioned, there are no other incidents. There were a few beatings

17 in the police station, but you were trying to proof that this was a daily

18 occurrence which lasted for months on end. At the beginning of certain

19 combat operations this things may have happened in the course of the

20 first few couple of days, but it didn't cover entire days and people

21 coming in and leaving as they wished. There were certain incidents at

22 the police station, but I wash my hands of that because there was nothing

23 I could do at the time. And I'm quite certain that they did not happen

24 on such a scale as you are trying to put.

25 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Djekanovic, may I just remind you that you

Page 1147

1 are not being interviewed here as a suspect. That you are not being

2 charged or investigated in any way for your actions during the conflict.

3 So by virtue of this, you are required to tell the truth, and I should

4 remind you that there is a severe penalty for providing false testimony

5 to this court. Thank you.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I understand you

7 fully, but I don't know whether you know that I was interrogated as a

8 suspect and that all of my statements and interviews were given in that

9 capacity.

10 JUDGE HARHOFF: We are fully aware of your having been once

11 interviewed as a suspect, but that is now behind us, and you are no more

12 a suspect in front of these proceedings. You are a witness, and you are

13 obliged to tell the truth. Thank you.

14 MS. KORNER: All right. Can we move, please, to the 14th of

15 July, which I hope is now on the screen.

16 Q. Under item 1, we see that the War Presidency was concluding:

17 "...it was not satisfied with the results achieved so far and the

18 current military and security situation." Was further concluded,

19 "...that General Talic and Stojan Zupljanin have to be contacted urgently

20 in order to inform them of our dissatisfaction with developments so far

21 and task them with creating conditions needed to accelerate the

22 operation."

23 Exactly what operation did you want accelerated by the police and

24 the army?

25 A. I honestly cannot confirm what operation exactly this is

Page 1148

1 referring to, and whether it is actually referring to an operation. But

2 I can conclude that we were not satisfied at the time, and we were not

3 satisfied because almost throughout the entire territory in Kotor Varos

4 municipality there were conflicts, there were daily burials because there

5 were times when we would bury 12 to 13 people per day. And of course we

6 weren't happy with that situation, nor were the people happy with it.

7 There was no security on roads either.

8 Q. But an operation you want them to carry out, what was it that you

9 wanted the police and the military to do, and do more efficiently?

10 A. I don't know of any instance where the War Presidency requested

11 the military police to carry out an operation, especially not a military

12 operation. The military had their staff, of course, and --

13 Q. Stop, stop, stop, stop, stop, please. I'm not asking about the

14 military police, the military and the police. You were talking about

15 General Talic and Stojan Zupljanin. So what operation did you want the

16 military, full stop, and the police, full stop, to carry out?

17 A. The global request that we addressed to the military and the

18 police was to provide security and safety in Kotor Varos municipality,

19 and because there was a line of separation at Vlasic, we wanted them to

20 ensure that there was security on the entire -- in the entire area of the

21 municipality. But we did not request any operation nor did we

22 specifically ask for any operation or mention it.

23 Q. So it did nothing to do with cleansing Kotor Varos of non-Serbs?

24 A. Absolutely, and I stand by that. This has nothing to do with

25 cleansing of the non-Serb population. And I told you that very soon

Page 1149

1 thereafter we engaged in the municipal organs members of the non-Serb

2 population to work for them.

3 Q. Yes, as cleaners as I recall. All right. Item 2 under the

4 second dot:

5 "Activities relating to moving out the population failed to meet

6 expectations. This task must be dealt with in a much more organised

7 fashion; an agency has to be established to handle these matters."

8 The word is "moving out," isn't it?

9 A. People were moving out and that was something that could not be

10 avoided.

11 Q. "Activities relating to moving out the population," doesn't that

12 suggest that there was some form of the population being moved, not them

13 moving themselves?

14 A. I claim with full responsibility that no one ever ordered

15 actively an action to move out the population. There was a desire and an

16 activity people asked to leave. There were problems with it. There were

17 problems with the transportation of those people, with their protection,

18 and there were also problems with people already taking money away and

19 making people -- or making people cede their property to them, make them

20 sign papers ceding their property. And there were activities to that

21 effect to help those people, so that as they were moving out their

22 problems were as minimal as possible. And in that sense, we did -- those

23 were the activities, and I claim with full responsibility that that is

24 how we handled these things.

25 Q. Yes, I've already asked you about what happened.

Page 1150

1 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, may that be made an exhibit, please.

2 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.

3 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P89, Your Honours.

4 MS. KORNER: Can we very quickly, please, just look at 65 ter

5 number 6 -- 728.

6 Q. Right, we've got the B/C/S on the screen now, so can you find the

7 part in that please, Mr. Djekanovic, where it talks about the

8 relationship between the army and the police, which is just -- it's by

9 the second dash -- third dash. Fourth dash, actually.

10 A. Could we just blow this up a bit.

11 Q. Fourth dash, which begins: "The relationship between the army

12 and police..."

13 A. Yes, I've found it.

14 Q. Why was the War Presidency concerned about where the involvement

15 of the army stops and responsibility is taken over by the police?

16 A. Yes, I understand your question. At some periods and at one

17 period of over a month and a half, we had a problem because there was no

18 joint staff or Joint Command and no coordination, so that frequently

19 there were overlappings of authorities and competence over those units,

20 so in that overlapping, of course there were problems.

21 I mentioned yesterday that we had people engaged through the

22 Territorial Defence who were supposed to be in the light brigade, the

23 Municipal Light Brigade under the command of General Galic [as

24 interpreted], but that unit remained without any commander for a long

25 time. And our intervention was in that sense, we called on General Talic

Page 1151

1 to improve the coordination, to improve the staff so that it is clearly

2 defined whose area of responsibility what is. And this is all that this

3 relates to, I don't know of anything else.

4 Q. Sorry, you said General Galic to begin with; was that right?

5 A. General Talic.

6 Q. That's what I thought.

7 MS. KORNER: All right. Your Honours, could that please be made

8 an exhibit.

9 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.

10 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

11 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P90, Your Honours.

12 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, the next one is already -- it's not,

13 sorry, can I -- it's 65 ter number 10108, which will have to be marked

14 for identification.

15 Q. There's only one item I want to ask you about and that's item 3.

16 MS. KORNER: Could we go to the next page in the English, and

17 it's on the same page in the B/C/S.

18 Q. "The current issues that were discussed under this item were the

19 behaviour of certain individuals - members of special units, and a

20 proposal to Brigade command made by active-duty officers..."

21 We saw on the 8th of July, that Dubocanin told you that the

22 special unit was being pulled out, but on the 19th of July, it was still

23 there; is that right? Is that right, Mr. Djekanovic?

24 A. Slobodan said that it would be pulled out and not that it was

25 pulled out. It is correct that he said that it would be pulled out, and

Page 1152

1 it is also correct that it still remained there.

2 Q. And still causing you problems apparently?

3 A. The unit it itself was not causing problems; it was individuals,

4 members of the units who were causing the problems, and this is something

5 we discussed yesterday.

6 Q. Yes, but those members of that unit had a commander, either

7 Ljuban Ecim in Banja Luka or Slobodan Dubocanin in Kotor Varos itself?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did you complain to Dubocanin that he had told you that they were

10 being pulled out, and yet, here they still were, causing members of his

11 unit under police control still causing problems?

12 A. Yes, we did complain, certainly.

13 Q. And what was his reaction when you complained?

14 A. Well, I have to say, and you can see this from what we saw

15 before, it -- there was a promise that the unit would be pulled out.

16 However, a part of that unit was later on re-assigned and the number of

17 members of the unit decreased. Some -- a part of the unit was

18 transferred to another area, but some members remained behind and how

19 many exactly, I don't know, as well as when the unit was pulled out

20 completely from the town. But whenever there were problems we reacted

21 and asked for this to be stopped, to be prevented.

22 Q. Yes, but as we will see, it still was going on. So did you

23 approach again Stojan Zupljanin on whom -- with whom you were on friendly

24 terms?

25 A. I don't know on what basis you concluded that we were on friendly

Page 1153

1 terms. We were only on official terms, and I addressed via the CSB or,

2 rather, the station of public security and all communications with

3 Zupljanin were through the station in Kotor Varos. The private

4 encounters that we had a few days before does not imply that we had

5 constant private communications, that was not possible either because of

6 my or his work, but there was a chief of the police station and how

7 frequently he communicated with him and conveyed what was said, I really

8 don't know.

9 Q. All right.

10 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, may that be marked for identification,

11 please.

12 JUDGE HALL: So marked.

13 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P91 marked for identification,

14 Your Honours.

15 MS. KORNER: There is a mistake. Oh, I'm sorry, thank you very

16 much.

17 Q. Yes, you told us yesterday - that's why I put it to you - that

18 you were privately friends. Transcript page 1128, line 7.

19 MR. KRGOVIC: And after that correction by Mr. Pantelic, that was

20 wrong. You can find that.

21 MS. KORNER: Okay. Can we move now, please, to 65 ter 732, very

22 quickly, because this is one you mentioned yesterday, or the day before.

23 And I think it's the last few lines in the B/C/S under item 3 that you

24 wanted to draw attention to. And if we can -- in the English, it's on

25 the second page of the translation. No. Yes, second page of the

Page 1154

1 translation, please. Second page. Third page, sorry.

2 Q. All right. Here you ordered the SJB to return a rifle to

3 Nail Hotilovic as he needs it to protect the enterprise. I think this is

4 what you were mentioning yesterday, that this was a Muslim?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And what enterprise was he going to protect?

7 A. He and his family had a private business which dealt in poultry

8 production, and for many years this small business was in operation. It

9 was in operation during the way [as interpreted] and still is and is

10 rather successful. So the entire -- this entire farm or enterprise was

11 successful during the war, and they enjoyed the protection of the army.

12 And during the operation of disarming, he was -- his weapon was taken

13 away, and then we insisted that they be offered assistance. We insisted

14 both with the military and the police, and as you can see, this, too,

15 came about.

16 Q. He was providing food, in fact, was he? Poultry farm, you said.

17 A. Yes, he had a poultry farm.

18 Q. And those provisions were being used for whom?

19 A. Well, for the market, whoever used and needed food stuffs.

20 Q. So it wasn't that these were being given to the army or the

21 police, the poultry?

22 A. Well, in part there was probably that too, and I know that they

23 were even donors and that all their food was used. But that this was

24 under any kind of authority that this is how it had to be done, no,

25 that's not how it happened. They were more involved in purchasing

Page 1155

1 poultry from other farmers and they -- because they had a

2 slaughter-house, they would process this meat, so they really worked

3 together with other farmers.

4 Q. All right. I'm going to skip the next document because it's

5 already an exhibit.

6 MS. KORNER: Could that be marked as an exhibit, that was 732.

7 JUDGE HALL: Yes, admitted and marked.

8 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P92, Your Honours.

9 MS. KORNER: All right, could we move, please, to the 28th of

10 July, which is 65 ter 736.

11 Q. Under item 2:

12 "The chief of the SJB has reported that the confiscation of money

13 of individuals who are moving out, it was established that it was being

14 done without anyone's order in an unauthorised manner, and this can have

15 a negative effect on the operation and the reputation of all of us. It

16 was decided that the money confiscated in this manner will be used to

17 help the families of the soldiers killed and other essential costs of the

18 municipality."

19 Who had been unauthorisely [sic] confiscating the money of the

20 individuals that were moving out?

21 A. Well, there were instances and there was mention of these

22 incidents with -- by people who actually monitored this kind of

23 situation. So there were instances where without their knowledge money

24 was taken away from individuals, and this is what the chief Tepic was

25 actually briefing on, and he asked that something be done about this,

Page 1156

1 primarily because there were such instances of money confiscation and

2 this was being abused --

3 Q. Yes, yes, yes, I'm going to stop you --

4 A. -- in some cases.

5 Q. I want to know -- the question I asked was, who?

6 A. In addition to Ljuboje Gavric, I don't know exactly who it was

7 who actually carried this out and who prepared lists of these people and

8 prepared their moving out. I can't recall all the names right now. At

9 this time it was Ljubo Gavric who was in charge of this team.

10 Q. Who, who was stealing the money of people who were moving out?

11 Who was doing it, not who was monitoring the moving out.

12 A. I cannot mention a single name with any certainty. Savo would

13 probably have more information on that because he was the one who briefed

14 on it. We did not really go in detail into how that was done, I really

15 don't know.

16 Q. The moving out, the convoys and the like, who was in charge of

17 security there?

18 A. The security of the convoy was provided by the police station.

19 However, sometimes they were escorted also by some members of the

20 Crisis Staff.

21 Q. Okay. So we've got the police and sometimes the Crisis staff.

22 Of those two groups, who was stealing money --

23 A. One of the members of the Crisis Staff. And I'm sure that

24 neither the police nor the others did that. There is no proof of that.

25 I'm talking now about the people who were preparing lists and making

Page 1157

1 records of the people who are moving out, and I don't know that there

2 were any thefts from these people. And in the convoy itself, I don't

3 know that there were any instances where money was stolen from them.

4 Q. Okay. All right. Let's just look at the rest of it. The money

5 that is being confiscated is to be used to help the families of soldiers

6 killed and the other essential costs of the municipality. Do you agree

7 that what we are talking about, according to Savo Tepic, is that money

8 has been stolen. Why wasn't it going to be kept or returned to those

9 from whom it was being stolen?

10 A. Well, first of all, we didn't know who it was stolen from.

11 Secondly, we didn't know when we would see those people. And in the

12 municipality in order to organise normal every-day life -- because there

13 were shortages of everything, food, electric power, fuel. So every penny

14 was there more than useful because it could be used to buy food and to

15 ensure that people could survive.

16 Q. All right. So anyhow, at this stage the Crisis Staff is

17 accepting that it is unlawfully -- or somebody is unlawfully removing

18 money from those who are moving out?

19 A. That is what we concluded there, that there were instances of

20 unlawful removing of money.

21 Q. All right. Okay. Well let's have a look at the meeting of the

22 next day.

23 MS. KORNER: Could that please be made an exhibit, and can we

24 go --

25 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.

Page 1158

1 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P93, Your Honours.

2 MS. KORNER: 65 ter 739.

3 Q. Under item 1:

4 "The problem of the police working unprofessionally in cases of

5 theft and robbery committed by members of the police, who are imposing

6 themselves as a force and authority in their own right, were debated."

7 Which members of the police? The police directly under the

8 command of Savo Tepic, or the Special Police?

9 A. I can state with full responsibility that when talking about

10 this, these were members of the regular police, or rather, the reserve

11 contingent of the police who were attached to the police station, but

12 these were not members of the Special Police. In this particular

13 instance, that's what it refers to. But as I've said before, there were

14 also earlier instances of members of the Special Police who did that.

15 Q. Right. Well, if that was a problem, and this you can say with

16 full responsibility, as you put it, were not the Special Police, did you

17 say to Savo Tepic, You are in charge of the police station, you must keep

18 these men under control?

19 A. Both I and the Crisis Staff had very sharp discussions with Savo.

20 He was a special man. He would not allow anyone to interfere in his job

21 and in his work, whereas he was -- he would readily remark other people's

22 work and their jobs. But as far as what was happening at the police

23 station itself, that was something that he was responsible for, and it

24 wasn't our responsibility. And of course, we did call on him to control

25 and have or provide -- ensure control over that police.

Page 1159

1 Q. You say it wasn't your responsibility, Mr. Djekanovic, but your

2 responsibility was to ensure, wasn't it, through the police, the safety

3 of the population in Kotor Varos, and if it was being reported that the

4 police were behaving unlawfully, shouldn't you have taken the matter

5 further?

6 A. As for each problem that we were aware of, we tried to seek a

7 solution immediately. How successful we were under the circumstances, I

8 don't know. If we hadn't reacted as often as we did, the chaos would set

9 in. But we did our best under the circumstances, and we reacted to any

10 such incidents.

11 Q. Let's go please to, "The Following Conclusions Were Adopted."

12 Item 2:

13 "Commanders of the Special Police unit and other police

14 formations should be asked to provide lists of vehicles allowed freedom

15 of movement. Why did the Special Police have any say in who was allowed

16 freedom of movement?

17 A. No, no, no, this was not decided by the Special Police.

18 Yesterday I said that there were car thefts, that the majority of people

19 were mobilised for various police and army units. And of course in any

20 war zone there is no absolute freedom of movement, so there wasn't one

21 there either. I said that cars were stolen from abandoned houses, driven

22 to Banja Luka, but as for any special permit for movement through

23 check-points these were not issued bit Special Police.

24 Q. But the commanders of the Special Police unit should be asked to

25 provide lists of vehicles allowed freedom of movement, that's what it

Page 1160

1 says.

2 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is

3 misinterpretation and misquotation of the document and the witness's

4 statement. I think that in the English translation it says that member

5 of the Special Police and members of other formations are supposed to

6 provide lists of their own vehicles, both official and personal in order

7 for them to be given permits to move around.

8 MS. KORNER: No, no, no.

9 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm going to read the document in

10 the B/C/S as it is --

11 MS. KORNER: I object to this, Your Honour. It is not for

12 counsel to give evidence in this case. If he says he thinks there's an

13 error in the translation, he can ask the witness to repeat it and hear

14 what the interpreters say. He is not entitled to give evidence of what

15 is in the document, nor what it actually says. It's a matter for

16 interpreters and the witness. This is about the fourth or fifth time

17 this has happened, and I say I object to this.

18 [Trial Chamber confers]

19 JUDGE HALL: Ms. Korner, I understand your objection and your

20 concern, but the appreciation that the Chamber has for the intervention

21 of Mr. Krgovic was a -- one of the accuracy of the translation of the

22 document and the interpretation, which I anticipate is a not unusual and

23 will be a recurring issue in these proceedings for obvious reasons.

24 MS. KORNER: I have no objection at all if counsel says in his

25 view there's been an error in the translation and he would like it -- but

Page 1161

1 what Mr. Krgovic is doing is actually - additionally, helping the

2 witness - but actually giving the -- what he says is the correct

3 translation. If he says there is an error, then it is open to him to

4 suggest it and not give evidence of what he says that is error is and

5 what it should actually be saying.

6 JUDGE HARHOFF: I suggest we cut it off here and turn to the

7 witness. If he would be good enough to read out the part that is

8 contested.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Item 2, to request commanders of

10 the Special Police units and other police formations to provide lists of

11 vehicles that shall be allowed to move.

12 MS. KORNER: Right. That is why I object to this sort of

13 intervention.

14 Q. All right. So can you tell me why - I'll ask the question again

15 - you were requesting -- or, I'm sorry, the conclusion of the meeting

16 that day was that the commanders of the Special Police unit provide a

17 list of the vehicles?

18 A. In order for the people who were manning check-points know which

19 vehicles are legitimate, which vehicles are suspicious, or are being used

20 not for the appropriate purposes of army and police. And I mentioned

21 before, there had been car thefts and those cars had been driven to

22 Banja Luka.

23 Q. So the Special Police still have authority in Kotor Varos; is

24 that right?

25 A. I don't know which particular authority you are referring to, but

Page 1162

1 the Special Police had combat tasks issued by competent authorities, but

2 they didn't have any special powers. Apart from combat tasks, they

3 didn't have any other particular tasks.

4 Q. Okay. I'm going to leave that topic. Item 5: "That all buses

5 available in the municipality should be mobilised for resettling people."

6 Is that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And item 7:

9 "That persons moving away should be informed that they are

10 allowed to take with them not more than 300 Deutschmarks."

11 A. Yes, that's what it says in the document.

12 Q. Wasn't that confiscation of property belonging to people moving

13 away?

14 A. Yes, in a certain way it could have constituted a certain

15 restriction, but under the circumstances, if a person had a substantial

16 amount of money on themselves, that would have created problems for

17 themselves as well. There were experiences from people who were moving

18 from other territories into our territories, so there was a reverse

19 process in place. Therefore, I cannot provide any justification or a

20 clearly -- reason why this should be like that. There were some

21 objections while people were allowed to take that amount of money with

22 them; however, except for certain individuals, the majority of the people

23 didn't even have that money.

24 Q. Do I understand you to be saying, sir, that if they had more than

25 that it caused problems, that you were restricting what they could take

Page 1163

1 out for their own benefit?

2 A. I'm not sure if you understood it correctly. I know that the

3 majority of people never had that much money, so there was no problem in

4 that respect. If this decision was applied at all, I don't think there

5 were any problems.

6 Q. What you told me literally a minute ago was, "if a person had a

7 substantial amount of money on themselves, that would have created

8 problems for themselves as well." And my question was: By that answer

9 are you intending to say that restricting the amount of money was for

10 their own benefit?

11 A. That was not my intention to put it that way.

12 Q. Well, then what did you mean by that answer? What problems would

13 it have created for them if they had more money than 300 Deutschemarks?

14 A. I don't believe that this limit on 300 Deutschemarks was a

15 problem for anyone. It was imposed artificially, the people who had more

16 money would have been targeted by robbers and other people who looted

17 houses and took people's property away.

18 Q. That's exactly what I thought you were trying to say.

19 MS. KORNER: Yes, thank you very much. Can that be made

20 exhibit --

21 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Djekanovic, can I just ask you while we wait

22 for the exhibit number, if anyone was asked to hand over to the

23 Special Police the excess of 300 Deutschemarks which they had on them as

24 they were moving out of Kotor Varos, what happened -- what would happen

25 to that money? You said it would be confiscated, but for what purpose?

Page 1164

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This had never been handed over to

2 the Special Police, and it was not reported to the Special Police either.

3 There were a group of officials led for a time Ljubo Gajic [as

4 interpreted] who registered these things and who paid for the

5 transportation. But I don't know of any instance that anyone turned over

6 an excess of money. If anyone had excess money, they would have left it

7 with a friend, a friend or a relative. I don't know of any single case

8 in which a person handed over excess money to the Special Police, and I'm

9 talking about the people who were leaving. I don't know that anyone

10 handed over a substantial amount of money and that it was appropriated by

11 us.

12 JUDGE DELVOIE: I would like to ask a question as well,

13 Mr. Witness. You said that the people who had more money would have been

14 targeted by robbers and other people who looted houses and took people's

15 property away, but, if I remember exactly, you said somewhat earlier that

16 this was never done by members of the police; am I correct?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Special Police members never

18 collected the money, nor was it their task to do that. I categorically

19 claim that.

20 JUDGE DELVOIE: No, no, no. Did they engage in robbing and

21 looting, stealing property?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, there were such cases. Not

23 only by the Special Police, but, yes, initially they were a precursor to

24 this practice, but there were individual cases, members of the

25 Special Police took away primarily moveable property without any

Page 1165

1 authorisations, but there were all kinds of goings-on.

2 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.

3 MS. KORNER: Sorry, can I just understand that for a minute --

4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

5 MS. KORNER: Sorry.

6 JUDGE HALL: Sorry, the exhibit is admitted and marked.

7 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much.

8 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P94, Your Honours.

9 MS. KORNER: It's all right. Thank you very much.

10 All right, can we move, please, to the 15th of August, which is

11 -- yes, this is a -- not on our 65 ter list, so it will be marked for

12 identification, 10109. I just want to ask about one incident there. The

13 last sentence, please, of item 2.

14 Q. I'd like -- so there's no argument about the translation, could

15 you read us out what it says in the original B/C/S, Serbian language.

16 Last sentence.

17 A. "Concerning a group of civilians who were taken from the Vrbanjci

18 sector, it has been ordered for them to be driven to Vlasic, and then

19 directed towards Travnik."

20 Q. Right. "A group of civilians taken from..." Now, you were

21 there, does that mean taken -- not a voluntary fleeing if you like, but

22 people actually taken out of, taken from?

23 A. When you said I was there, I don't know which particular location

24 you referred to. And, two, I attended the session of the War Presidency.

25 Q. Was what you were being told and what you then gave instructions

Page 1166

1 to do was that people had been taken from the area, not left voluntarily?

2 A. I would like to reiterate once again. I almost don't know of a

3 single case in which people were forcibly taken out of their homes and

4 taken away. This relates to the problem -- related to the problem in

5 Vecici. On several occasions groups of people were taken to Kotor Varos,

6 and they were asked to be moved to Travnik. Now, what I can say with

7 full responsibility, there was no forcible hoarding of people or forcible

8 transfer of people.

9 Q. It doesn't say, does it, a group of people who have voluntarily

10 left or have been fleeing this particular area? It says "taken." Now

11 are you saying that means that no force was involved?

12 A. I'm telling you that this group was taken from Vrbanjci to

13 Kotor Varos. You can interpret it in any way you like. Being brought to

14 a place doesn't mean that force was being used.

15 Q. Instructions were given that they be transported to Vlasic and

16 sent towards Travnik. So did you give those instructions?

17 A. I believe that the group itself requested that to be done, and

18 thank God we met their request because the majority of people wanted to

19 go to Travnik.

20 MS. KORNER: Could that be marked for identification, please.

21 JUDGE HALL: Yes, marked for identification.

22 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P95 marked for identification,

23 Your Honours.

24 MS. KORNER: Then could we have, please, exhibit 65 ter number --

25 sorry, lost my -- 20th of August. 1883. Item 2. Second paragraph.

Page 1167

1 Q. "The question of whether persons in custody should also be

2 permitted to leave was addressed, and it was concluded that a list of all

3 such persons should be submitted to the responsible office of the SJB

4 which would decide."

5 Two questions. It was the police who decided who would be

6 released; is that what this says?

7 A. I don't know if you can construe it in that way. Possibly.

8 There were people whose families were leaving, and these people were in

9 custody. And I think that the requests for their release could have been

10 decided by the police station or those responsible for judiciary. So

11 between these two jurisdictions, those who issued orders on detention

12 were actually the ones who could decide on their release.

13 Q. Is it your view that people should only be kept in custody if

14 there is a reason to believe they have committed a criminal offence?

15 A. As for the procedure of putting people in custody, I don't know

16 anything about that. This is not my province. Whether they were accused

17 or suspected of having done something, they were put in custody, but as I

18 say, I know nothing about that.

19 Q. Right.

20 MS. KORNER: Could that please be made an exhibit, and then could

21 we move to the 21st of August, which is --

22 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P96, Your Honours.

23 MS. KORNER: -- 65 ter 745.

24 JUDGE HALL: Ms. Korner, as you phrase your next question, we are

25 coming up on the --

Page 1168

1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

2 JUDGE HALL: As you formulate your next question, remember we are

3 coming up on a break.

4 MS. KORNER: Item 2, second paragraph.

5 Q. Apparently this is you speaking, "... matters and problems to be

6 solved to the effect that the pressure and provocation by certain members

7 of the Special Forces unit directed against Muslim and Croat families in

8 order to compel them to leave should be stopped."

9 So a month and a half after Slobodan Dubocanin told that you the

10 Special Forces would be pulled out, they are still operating in

11 Kotor Varos; is that right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And clearly you knew exactly what they were doing, didn't you,

14 because you are the one saying they were carrying out actions to force

15 Muslims and Croats to leave?

16 A. There were pressures on a number of families who were well off.

17 There were certain special relations between them. Some of them had paid

18 money very early on to certain individuals for them to be escorted to

19 safety. Some remained for a longer period of time and I had no

20 information about any individual cases. All the information that either

21 the War Presidency or my office received, we tried to intervene. There

22 were information sometimes that we received from members from other

23 ethnic communities complaining that they had been maltreated by this or

24 that person.

25 JUDGE HALL: It's a convenient point. We rise for 20 minutes.

Page 1170

1 But we think it necessary to emphasise for the record that no

2 application has been made in this respect, and therefore, the Prosecution

3 should be reminded to adhere to the principles as to how questions are

4 led in terms of the witness called by itself.

5 Is the witness on the way in?

6 MS. KORNER: Yes, I think he is just loitering outside,

7 Your Honour.

8 JUDGE HALL: Yes, he may take the stand.

9 [The witness takes the stand]

10 MS. KORNER:

11 Q. Sir, you've told us and we've seen from the documents that the

12 Special Police were in Kotor Varos for something in the region of at

13 least two and a half months. So I'd like you to have a look at a

14 photograph, please, which you've been shown before, and could you

15 identify for us, please, first of all Slobodan Dubocanin?

16 MS. KORNER: Yes, I think we better ask him to draw on this.

17 Q. If you want it zoomed in on so the faces are a bit clearer, just

18 tell us.

19 A. I don't know where this photograph was taken. I saw it for the

20 first time on Tuesday when I arrived. The people in the photograph are

21 rather small, so it is nearly impossible for me to recognise anyone with

22 any degree of certainty. The same applies to Slobodan Dubocanin whom I

23 cannot register on the photograph, although I knew him well. Perhaps we

24 could zoom in if there's sufficient quality, otherwise I'm unable to

25 recognise him.

Page 1171

1 Q. You gave us an identification on Tuesday, so I'd like you to do

2 the same again, please. We'll zoom in.

3 A. On Tuesday I said I think it could be this person, although I'm

4 still uncertain.

5 Q. Could you please mark which one you say is Slobodan Dubocanin.

6 Call him 1, please. Mark 1 by the man you say you think.

7 A. Whatever I do may be a mistake, an error on my part.

8 Q. I'm sure the Chamber will take that into account. Just mark

9 which one you think is Slobodan Dubocanin.

10 A. [Marks]

11 Q. Sorry, Mr. Djekanovic, could you mark, please. Oh, I'm sorry.

12 A. I have.

13 Q. My fault. Now, could you mark, please, who Ljuban Ecim is, who

14 you think Ljuban Ecim is, number 2.

15 A. It is possible it is this person, but I'm not sure.

16 Q. Finally, please, Zdravko Samardzija.

17 A. He is the one that is the most difficult to recognise him. It is

18 possible that it is this person.

19 Q. Can you mark 3, please.

20 A. I have marked him.

21 Q. Yes, thank you.

22 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, that will need then to become a

23 separate exhibit, I think.

24 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Djekanovic, I appreciate your explanation as to

25 your difficulty in identifying the three individuals that you were asked

Page 1172

1 to mark from the photograph. What I'm not clear about is whether your

2 testimony is that as best you recall they were part of this group that

3 was in the photograph, although you are unable to identify them, or

4 whether you aren't even certain that they would have been part of this

5 group. Do you understand my question?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand it. First of all, I'm

7 not certain that this entire group as shown here was in Kotor Varos. I

8 have no proof of that. Secondly, I knew all three, Slobodan Dubocanin

9 better than the other two. I know Ljuban somewhat less, and at least I

10 knew Mr. Samardzija. I'm not saying that I could recognise those people

11 now, but this photograph is rather poor. It is Ljubo Ecim for whom I can

12 say with certain certainty that he may be the person in the photograph,

13 I'm not certain about the other two. There isn't sufficient detail in

14 the photograph. If you have another one, I'd be glad to point them out.

15 I know those people, and that is not in question.

16 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.

17 JUDGE HARHOFF: And, Mr. Djekanovic, if I can just have you

18 confirm, what the identity of this group? Who are they? Which unit are

19 they?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can repeat that I don't know what

21 group this is. This is may have been at one time the Special Police

22 group. I don't know where this photograph was taken. I'm convinced that

23 it was not taken in Kotor Varos. As for who all the members are, I don't

24 know, and I don't know whether this was the exact formation that

25 participated in Kotor Varos and how many of them did. But it is certain

Page 1173

1 that Dubocanin and Samardzija were there.

2 JUDGE HARHOFF: I'm asking about the unit as such. Are these

3 Special Police units, or are they army, or are they -- you know, which

4 units do they appear to be according to their uniforms?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it is the Special Police

6 unit. Although I have to say another thing, there were some red berets

7 as well. I don't know what their establishment was, what their

8 composition was, and whether this includes any red berets which were not

9 in Kotor Varos. I do not question the fact that I do know these three

10 people, but I don't know what the exact formation of this group in

11 Kotor Varos was or compared to this photograph.

12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Witness, what I am going to ask you is only

13 because I don't know. You said this could be Special Police unit, do you

14 recognise them on the colour of their berets? Or is that of no

15 importance? How do you -- what does permit you to say that they could be

16 Special Police? Is that the red berets?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] During a period of time there was a

18 unit called the red berets; I don't know whether they were

19 self-organised. I believe they participated in combat in Croatia. I

20 don't know anything about the formation of this group. I don't know what

21 colour of cap was worn by the Special Police. We were short of almost

22 everything at the time. All units wore different kinds of uniforms,

23 mixed uniforms, but there was a Special Police group in Kotor Varos.

24 Some of them sported different types of caps, hats, uniforms. I cannot

25 tell you with any certainty that indeed this group came in with this

Page 1174

1 precise type of cap.

2 MS. KORNER: Yes. Thank you.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.

4 MS. KORNER: Could that be made an exhibit now, please,

5 Your Honours.

6 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.

7 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P98, Your Honours.

8 MS. KORNER: Next could we have up --

9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

10 MS. KORNER: 746.

11 Q. Do you recognise this document -- maybe not this particular

12 gentleman, but do you recognise the document, Mr. Djekanovic?

13 A. When I see it I can recognise it and I do not dispute it. There

14 were different kinds of documents as statements, but I don't deny that

15 I'm familiar with this document.

16 Q. And it's a document, wasn't it, that had to be signed by people

17 who were leaving the municipality. This gentleman, Mr. Safet Smajlovic,

18 I think that was his father's name. No, first name -- yeah. It was his

19 name, sorry, and his father's name was Ibro. A Muslim; is that right?

20 A. Yes. He is definitely a Muslim. I don't know him but he is

21 Muslim.

22 Q. And he says, I declare I'm voluntarily leaving Kotor Varos for

23 the following reasons, I wish to move away and I leave behind my land in

24 Kotor and my destroyed house. And then he declares that he won't join

25 any armed formations. And three copies, one of which sent to the Crisis

Page 1175

1 Staff, one to the population resettlement agency, and one to the

2 Autonomous Region of Krajina. Just on that a last matter --

3 MS. KORNER: Sorry, we need the English to go further down,

4 please. Thank you.

5 Q. Was the Autonomous Region of Krajina saying that any records of

6 people leaving had to be sent up to them?

7 A. Your Honours, I do not dispute the authenticity of this document,

8 although I see it for the first time. I know that such documents were

9 produced at the time, but I didn't know whether it was sent to the

10 autonomous region. That is something I cannot say with any certainty.

11 In the different stages of resettlement and in different periods of time,

12 there were different types of registering such people and registering

13 their data. For awhile, that wasn't even done. At a certain stage we

14 wanted to introduce more order and then such statements were being taken.

15 To repeat, I do not dispute that the agency as such forwarded such

16 documents to the Crisis staff of the Autonomous Region of Krajina. I do

17 not question that.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, may that be made an exhibit.

20 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.

21 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

22 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P99.

23 MS. KORNER: Could we now move to the -- so sorry, Your Honour,

24 I'm just checking. I think I may have made a mistake. No, I think I've

25 made a mistake, it's not on the list. Yes, sorry it is. 65 ter 10111.

Page 1176

1 Again, it will be marked for identification, Your Honours. Item 4,

2 please, in English, bottom of the first page and over the next.

3 Q. "Lieutenant-Colonel Novakovic requested the War Presidency to

4 give its position on including Muslims and Croats in units of the Army of

5 the Serbian Republic. The War Presidency concluded that as far as this

6 issue is concerned, loyal Muslims and Croats who so request should be

7 assigned on an individual basis."

8 And then:

9 "Savo Tepic said that a similar problem also exists in the police

10 but he believes that it is not yet the right time for including Muslims

11 and Croats in this organ and this should wait for awhile."

12 Now, you told us yesterday that Muslims remained in the police in

13 September from what Mr. Tepic was saying; was that right?

14 A. I don't know how you understood my words yesterday. My answer

15 did not refer to a certain period of time specifically. I do know,

16 however, that as of the beginning and until his retirement, Rada Tatar

17 remained with the police later on when the reserve police force was being

18 mobilised, because the police force in Kotor Varos prior to the conflict

19 was not numerous. When they started manning the troops, there were

20 certain Muslims who remained with the reserve police force. As for the

21 period prior to this session, I don't know what the situation was, but

22 I'm quite certain that those guys from Galici and the

23 Maslovare Detachment were with the with the police at that time. So to

24 repeat with the police there were certain Muslim forces, members,

25 although not numerous. There was this guy Jasko, he may not have been

Page 1177

1 there from the start, but he was engaged relatively quickly, and he

2 remained with the police throughout the period.

3 MS. KORNER: All right Your Honours, may that be marked for

4 identification.

5 JUDGE HALL: So marked.

6 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P100 marked for identification,

7 Your Honours.

8 MS. KORNER: Right, I've just got one last document I want to

9 show you in a minute, but can I just see if we can deal with the

10 background.

11 Q. The village of Vecici held out, didn't it, for a long time, until

12 the beginning of November?

13 A. Yes, late October, early November.

14 Q. And is this right - and Your Honours, I appreciate I'm leading

15 but I don't think there's any dispute about this, and I just want to set

16 the background - there was a series of negotiations with the people who

17 were in Vecici, largely Muslims who were resisting?

18 A. Yes, there was a strong Muslim unit in Vecici, and the fact that

19 they remained there for so long is significant. Towards the end of

20 October the Serb losses in Vecici alone was over 50, only in that area.

21 It is also correct that there were several negotiations by army

22 representatives. I even participated during one of such events at the

23 bridge by the river from the representatives of Vecici when their

24 surrender and departure were being discussed.

25 Q. And then, is this right, that at the end of negotiations, and

Page 1178

1 there was an argument about how they were to leave, about 200 men tried

2 to escape and were captured?

3 A. Possibly that is partially true. There were far more people in

4 the village, civilians and military, and the negotiations were underway

5 and their final request was that they all be allowed to leave with their

6 weapons.

7 Q. Good. But is this right, because I think you've said this

8 before, they were captured and taken to a school in Grabovica?

9 A. When the -- when there was a breakdown in the communication

10 between the -- within the leadership of Republika Srpska between the

11 commanders and -- of the army -- in the army, they did not allow them to

12 leave with the weapons, and they were not willing on their part to put

13 down their weapons. So one group was transferred -- or actually came to

14 our side and they were taken to -- from Donja Vrbanjci and transported on

15 buses to Travnik as was always the case. How many civilians and how many

16 people remained in Vecici, I don't know, but they were not arrested in

17 Vecici. They set out to break through the lines in several directions

18 from Vecici via Knezevo where strong military forces had there positions

19 towards Travnik, towards Jajce, and so on.

20 Q. I appreciate there is a long history to this, I just want to deal

21 with this one aspect. Were a number of them captured and taken to the

22 school in Grabovica?

23 A. Yes, a group surrendered and was taken to the school in

24 Grabovica.

25 Q. Were you as president of the Crisis Staff informed and did you go

Page 1179

1 to the school on the day that they had been captured?

2 A. Yes, I was actually on site when they were transferred to the

3 school in Grabovica. I was already there.

4 Q. Right. And was it members of the army, not the police, who were

5 dealing with them?

6 A. Most of the people there were members of the army.

7 Q. Now, I just want you to look then, this is the final document and

8 final matter I want to ask you about, please, at --

9 MS. KORNER: The document number is -- it's the 6th of November

10 of 1992, 65 ter number 10116. Again, it will have to be marked for

11 identification.

12 Q. We see under item 2:

13 "President Nedjelko Djekanovic was in Grabovica yesterday

14 monitored the clearing up of the terrain and the cleaning of the school."

15 Was the situation that people had been captured or killed?

16 A. On the following day, in other words, the evening when these

17 people were brought in there, nothing happened. They were put up in the

18 school and they were searched. I believe some things were taken away

19 from them, maybe some watches or whatever, I don't really know. And they

20 remained that night at the school building. On the next day, the women

21 and children were put on buses and taken to Kotor Varos, and from there

22 on to Travnik.

23 A number of able-bodied men remained in the school building. I

24 don't know exactly how many of them. In the course of that day, there

25 were several killings, but I can't really tell you exactly what the

Page 1180

1 number was, and they weren't killed on the premises of the school itself.

2 Q. Well, Mr. Djekanovic, what this reads is that you went to monitor

3 the cleaning of the school. What did you find when you got to the

4 school?

5 A. This was on the third or -- on the second or third day following

6 that. You see, when a number of people, I don't exactly know what the

7 number was, maybe 200 to 300 people, women and children, and as they

8 tried to break through the woods, of course they were not in normal

9 condition when they arrived, and of course there were -- there was damage

10 to the school building. There were many or some families who had lost

11 their loved ones at Vecici. There was also a number of people or a

12 number of families who received the bodies, the charred bodies of their

13 loved ones a few days later from Vecici. So you can imagine what the

14 general situation was like and what the atmosphere was like.

15 And I tried to keep things under control to prevent people from

16 taking -- from avenging their loved ones. And in the end the school year

17 was supposed to begin, and it was normal that we had to put this school

18 in order and prepare it for the new school year. And as was the custom,

19 I tried to actually visit and inspect all the schools and make sure that

20 they could start with their school year.

21 Q. Did you find any blood in the school when you went there?

22 A. There was -- there were some traces of blood, but there wasn't a

23 lot of blood. Maybe some people were beaten in all this commotion.

24 There was some blood on the walls; but that there was major beating up in

25 the schools going on, no.

Page 1181

1 MS. KORNER: Yes, that's all I ask. Thank you, Your Honours.

2 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Djekanovic, what would ordinarily happen at this

3 stage is that the lawyers for the accused persons be invited to

4 cross-examine you if they wish, but for reasons -- for certain

5 administrative reasons we have to interpose a witness at this stage in

6 the course of these proceedings. And it is regretted that the

7 inconvenience to you would be that you -- you are not released now as a

8 witness, although you are stood down until possibly Monday or even

9 possibly until later next week.

10 So at this stage you are being excused from the courtroom but not

11 released, and I would repeat the admonitions that I would have given to

12 you on yesterday's adjournment and the adjournment of the day previous,

13 that because you are not yet released, you cannot communicate with the

14 lawyers on either side at all, and in terms of any conversations or

15 discussions you may have with persons other than the lawyers, it cannot

16 relate to your testimony -- to the testimony that you are giving. Do you

17 understand what I've just said? Yes.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I understand fully

19 what you've just said, but this is a problem for me because I have

20 business to attend to and I have a family. But in any case, I have come

21 as summoned by the Court and I will comply with this order as well, but I

22 would also appeal to you to, if at all possible, try and complete my

23 questioning today. Of course if not, I can't do anything about that.

24 JUDGE HALL: Well, it is not possible for that to be completed

25 today, but I'm sure that the lawyers are not unmindful of your personal

Page 1192

1 it comes up. It's the field behind the hospital. And once again it will

2 assist Your Honours when reading the testimony to give some context to

3 where the hospital was and the layout.

4 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you. Admitted.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P103.8.

6 MS. PIDWELL:

7 Q. Sir, I just have a few questions for you now. You were a reserve

8 policeman in Kotor Varos from 1979 until the end of 1991. Could you

9 please explain for the Trial Chamber the role of a reserve policeman at

10 that time?

11 A. At that time after completing my compulsory military service in

12 the JNA, all the young men and other citizens had their assignments. I

13 was assigned to reserve police. Our task was to join active duty police

14 in patrolling the town, to secure socially-owned or other significant

15 facilities in the municipality of Kotor Varos.

16 Q. And during the time of that, when you were first given the role

17 of a reserve policeman in 1979 and up until the end of 1991, do you

18 recall how many times you were in fact deployed in that role?

19 A. Twice. One time it was when the Yugoslav president, Josip Broz

20 Tito died -- or actually before he died, while he was ill; and the second

21 time was during the winter Olympic games.

22 Q. And in your statement you say that you were ordered to work for

23 the Kotor Varos police at the end of -- or in December 1991. Can you

24 advise the Trial Chamber who ordered you to work as a policeman at that

25 time?

Page 1193

1 A. We received our orders from the chief of police, or rather the

2 commander of the police. Savo Tepic was the chief of police at the time.

3 Q. Sir, how were you told that you were now required to work full

4 time for the Kotor Varos police?

5 A. The Kotor Varos receive [as interpreted] police members received

6 papers calling us up to report at the police station in Kotor Varos.

7 MS. PIDWELL: I wonder if a correction needs to be made to the

8 transcript or if the translation was wrong. The page 56 line 2, it says

9 the Kotor Varos "receive" police members. I think it's supposed to read

10 reserve police members.

11 Q. When you were ordered to come and work for the Kotor Varos police

12 at this time, were you issued with a uniform?

13 A. I had my uniform from before since 1979.

14 Q. And can you just describe that uniform, please.

15 A. I had a winter uniform, colour blue, dark blue. I also had a

16 shirt and a tie.

17 Q. Was the material used for this uniform camouflage or

18 non-camouflage?

19 A. Non-camouflage.

20 Q. And were you issued with a weapon?

21 A. I was issued a piece of weapon in December 1979.

22 Q. And what kind of weapon was that?

23 A. An automatic rifle.

24 Q. And you've told us that from 1979 until 1991, you were only

25 required to form your reserve police duties on two occasions. The rest

Page 1194

1 of the time where was your rifle kit, the rifle that you were issued from

2 the police?

3 A. I didn't have a rifle since 1979. I received the rifle in

4 December 1991.

5 Q. Right. So from December 1991, where was the rifle kept when you

6 were off duty?

7 A. I kept it at home.

8 Q. Now, in your statement you describe a uniform with a flower on

9 it, the translation is a snowdrop. Which uniform had a white flower on

10 it?

11 A. Olive drab military uniforms had it.

12 Q. And do you know which military or police formation wore these

13 uniforms?

14 A. They were worn by the members of the Territorial Defence.

15 Q. And just on that note, where was the -- do you know where the

16 Territorial Defence offices were in Kotor Varos?

17 A. The police offices were at the new police station, and on the

18 floor above in the same building were the offices of the

19 Territorial Defence.

20 Q. I'm just going to show you some photos in a minute, but just to

21 clarify the issue of your weapon, when you say that you kept your rifle

22 at home, was that -- was that the practice of the Kotor Varos police?

23 Were you in fact allowed to do that, or was it something that you just

24 did of your own accord?

25 A. We were allowed to take our rifles home at the time.

Page 1195

1 MS. PIDWELL: Can I please have 65 ter 3417, please.

2 Your Honours, this is a -- this is a compilation of maps and

3 photos which the Prosecution has put together to try and assist the

4 Trial Chamber with the witness in giving some perspective to the areas

5 that we're talking about. This is the first time we are going use it,

6 and the technical side of it may elude me, slightly. It's in sanction,

7 which means I think we control that, rather than the Registry.

8 Q. Sir, you'll see on your computer screen there a photograph. Do

9 you recognise that town?

10 A. Yes, I do. This is Kotor Varos.

11 Q. And can you describe -- do you know the name of the street that

12 is the main street that we see on the right-hand side of the screen?

13 A. I don't know the name of the street, but it leads from Banja Luka

14 towards Teslic via Vrbanjci, but I honestly don't know its name.

15 Q. In your statement you talk about being taken over a bridge. Do

16 you see the bridge in that photograph?

17 A. Yes, I can see the bridge.

18 MS. PIDWELL: I think I might ask the witness to draw on the

19 photograph, and I think I'm going to have to bring it up in e-court. 65

20 ter 10120.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, I don't know what kind

22 of implement shall I use to do the marking?

23 MS. PIDWELL: The Court Officer will assist you, sir.

24 Q. Are you able to -- sir, with that -- the pen in your hand, you

25 are able to mark, to draw where you see the bridge. Are you able to do

Page 1196

1 that?

2 A. Yes, I can. This is the bridge.

3 Q. So --

4 MS. PIDWELL: I'm sorry, Your Honours, I'm taking instructions on

5 the technical side of this. If we could note that 1 is the bridge that

6 the witness is referring to so that we can have an understanding between

7 the transcript and the exhibit. The witness needs to mark --

8 Q. If you could mark, sir, the bridge at number 1 so we can follow

9 the testimony, please.

10 A. [Marks]

11 Q. Do you see the sawmill in Kotor Varos in that picture?

12 A. This is the direction towards Banja Luka.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The witness is

14 unintelligible.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The sawmill is here.

16 MS. PIDWELL:

17 Q. Could you mark that with a number 2, please, sir.

18 A. [Marks]

19 Q. Do you see the Catholic church on that picture?

20 A. Yes, I do. It's here.

21 Q. Would you mark that with number 3, please.

22 A. [Marks]

23 Q. Do you see the Kotor Varos hospital on that picture?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Could you mark that with number 4, please.

Page 1197

1 A. [Marks]

2 Q. And do you know where the SJB building is in Kotor Varos from

3 that picture?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And could you mark that number 5, please.

6 A. [Marks]

7 Q. It's not that clear from the photograph, so perhaps you could

8 assist us. The area between your number 4 and number 5, we see there's

9 an empty area without any buildings; what is that?

10 A. This is a football stadium. This is a school and -- an

11 elementary school, a gym, a secondary school, and these are the workshops

12 where I underwent training to be a blacksmith, and these are the garages.

13 This is the entrance from the main street to the police station.

14 Q. And do you know if that football stadium is a standard size

15 football stadium?

16 A. Yes. It was of a standard size except for the stands, because

17 there wasn't enough space at the time. Today it's bigger. But the size

18 of the pitch itself is standard.

19 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Pidwell, shouldn't you ask the witness to

20 indicate where the football stadium is.

21 MS. PIDWELL: Thank you, Your Honour. I will.

22 Q. Could you mark the football stadium on there as well and mark it

23 with the number 6, please, sir.

24 A. [Marks]

25 Q. Do you know where the municipal building is in Kotor Varos?

Page 1198

1 A. The municipal assembly is in the direction of Vrbanjci, but you

2 cannot see it on this map.

3 Q. Do you know how far it was from the SJB building?

4 A. Approximately another distance equal to the one that we see now

5 in the direction of Teslic.

6 Q. Do you know how far it was -- or it is, was, from the SJB

7 building to the Catholic church?

8 A. Well, approximately or maybe even more than the distance between

9 the hospital and the Catholic church.

10 Q. Are you able to give us an estimate of the kilometre or metre

11 range?

12 A. If you take a paved road between 300 and 400 metres, or 500

13 maximum, if you walk this way. But I don't believe that the distance is

14 that long, though.

15 Q. Do you know where Savo Tepic lived in 1992?

16 A. He had an apartment at Bregovi, just behind the church in these

17 buildings here.

18 Q. Could you mark on the photo, please, where that is and mark it

19 with number 7.

20 A. [Marks]

21 Q. Do you know where Nedjelko Djekanovic lived in 1992?

22 A. Probably in the same area, at Bregovi, since in that area all of

23 the apartments were state-owned.

24 JUDGE HARHOFF: Ms. Pidwell, we are coming to the break. We have

25 to take the break at 5 minutes past, so if you could round up and be

Page 1199

1 ready by then, then we can take the break.

2 MS. PIDWELL: I'm in fact finished with this witness, sir. I was

3 going to seek to tender that; I think I have to tender it separately now

4 that it's marked, as an exhibit.

5 JUDGE HARHOFF: Accepted.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P104, Your Honours.

7 MS. PIDWELL: And I have no further questions for this witness.

8 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you. We will now take the break, and we

9 will adjourn in 20 minutes.

10 [The witness stands down]

11 --- Recess taken at 12.32 p.m.

12 --- On resuming at 12.52 p.m.

13 MS. PIDWELL: Your Honours, I know I indicated I had finished

14 with the witness, I have one question if I may be permitted to ask it?

15 Sorry, Your Honours. I'll repeat. I had indicated I'd finished

16 with this witness, but I do have one further question if I'm permitted to

17 ask it. It is just one question.

18 JUDGE HARHOFF: I am afraid, Ms. Pidwell, that if we are to

19 finish this witness today, that won't be possible. We have indications

20 by the Defence that they need approximately one half-hour, and that's

21 already -- we don't even have time for that. So I suggest that if we can

22 conclude the cross-examinations and there still is a couple of minutes

23 left before we adjourn today, then you can put your question.

24 MS. PIDWELL: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.

25 [The witness takes the stand]

Page 1200

1 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Zecevic and also Mr. Krgovic, I kindly ask

2 you to see if it is possible to conclude the cross-examination of this

3 witness before we have to adjourn today. The witness is yours.

4 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sure we will be able it to accommodate the

5 Trial Chamber and the witness. But, just Your Honours, I mean, if

6 Ms. Pidwell wants to ask the question, maybe it's better that she ask now

7 because after that, we might have a issue with that and we will need to

8 re-cross examine.

9 JUDGE HARHOFF: That's very well. I agree with you. But she's

10 taking off time from you and Mr. Krgovic -- are you allowed to give her

11 that?

12 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes.

13 JUDGE HARHOFF: Very well, Ms. Pidwell, quickly.

14 MS. PIDWELL:

15 Q. Sir, did you know a Muslim police officer by the name of

16 Zahirovic?

17 A. A Muslim by the name of Zahirovic? He may have been a reserve

18 policeman, but I don't know of such an active duty policeman.

19 MS. PIDWELL: That was my question. Thank you.

20 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Zecevic.

21 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you.

22 Cross-examination by Mr. Zecevic:

23 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, as we speak the same language, you will

24 probably wish to answer as quickly as possible, but please wait a moment

25 since I need to turn the -- my microphone off first for the sake of the

Page 1214

1 released. Thanks.

2 MS. PIDWELL: Sir, there's just one procedural matter that the

3 case manager has just brought to my attention which I understand has to

4 be dealt with now. There was a portion of time when my learned friend

5 was standing up addressing the Court when his microphone was on and the

6 witness's voice would have been transmitted without the distortion. And

7 that piece needs to be redacted, and I understand I need to make a formal

8 application now for that occur within five minutes of it occurring.

9 JUDGE HARHOFF: Madam Registrar, can this be done?

10 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

11 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you, again, Mr. Witness, you may now leave

12 the courtroom.

13 [The witness withdrew]

14 JUDGE HARHOFF: Ms. Korner.

15 MS. KORNER: May I just raise something in relation to the last

16 matter. The complaint that Ms. Pidwell was making was one which I think

17 we ought to clear up. Certain limited parts of the transcript were

18 quoted from the Brdjanin case by Mr. Krgovic. He omitted the large

19 number of references it to Slobodan Dubocanin's presence and indeed

20 interrogation that this witness that also litter the transcript. If a

21 misleading impression is given in that way, either counsel can stand up

22 and ask Defence counsel to deal with the other parts of the transcript

23 that mention all over the place Mr. Dubocanin, or alternatively wait to

24 deal with it in re-examination. So to that extent that was what the

25 purpose of Ms. Pidwell's questioning about Dubocanin was. But if

Page 1215

1 Your Honours -- I know Your Honours got a copy of the transcript, you

2 will see indeed there's a whole reference that actually came out in

3 cross-examination to Slobodan Dubocanin actually interrogating this

4 witness, and also being the one that was present.

5 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you, Ms. Korner. I must admit, I mean, I

6 was perfectly aware of Mr. Dubocanin's name being mentioned, but it

7 skipped me that the parts that were referred to by Mr. Krgovic were those

8 parts in which his name --

9 MS. KORNER: His name isn't mentioned.

10 JUDGE HARHOFF: And so --

11 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my cross-examination

12 was related directly to the events outside the health centre. In the

13 evidence given in the Brdjanin case, the witness never mentioned the

14 presence of Mr. Dubocanin outside the health centre. And since my

15 cross-examination pertained exclusively to this incident, there is no

16 doubt that if the Prosecutor claims that this person was indeed mentioned

17 in this incident, let us please have either the page number or any other

18 reference, and that was the essence of my objection granted by the

19 Chamber. I asked this witness about specific persons whose name were

20 given, and the people who he recognised as the perpetrators of the crime.

21 However, neither in the Brdjanin case, nor in his statement that was

22 admitted into evidence there is no mention of Mr. Dubocanin. He did

23 mention him in the events preceding this one, but he is not highlighted

24 here as the person who was in charge or commanded these men who committed

25 these crimes. And that was the essence of my objection.

Page 1216

1 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honours have the transcript. I'm not

2 going to take this further and waste time, but that -- just so that the

3 explanation as to how this came about.

4 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you, Ms. Korner. I think we can leave it

5 at that, if that's fine with you. We still have another 12 minutes, and

6 I suppose it doesn't make sense to call back Mr. Djekanovic for

7 12 minutes cross-examination. Are there any other procedural matters

8 that we should deal with? Sorry, Judge Delvoie has a question.

9 JUDGE DELVOIE: I don't have a question. I would still like to

10 inform the parties about the extended sitting in compensation of the 16th

11 of October. We will sit on the 19th to 20th and the 21st of October as

12 scheduled in the morning, and an extended sitting from 1445 to 1615.

13 Thank you.

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 JUDGE DELVOIE: And we have Thursday -- the same extended sitting

16 on Thursday in reserve.

17 MS. KORNER: Sorry, can I ask what that means, because obviously

18 we are lining up witnesses. You mean, if somebody -- a witness runs

19 over? All right. Yes.

20 JUDGE HARHOFF: As you will see in the court calendar, Thursday

21 has been reserved with the same extended times, so if by any chance we

22 need it, we can have it. Otherwise we will just stick to what is

23 originally foreseen in the extended hearings for Monday, Tuesday, and

24 Wednesday.

25 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much, Your Honour. That will be very

Page 1217

1 helpful. In fact, I think we will need the extended sitting on Thursday

2 as well.

3 JUDGE DELVOIE: We have to compensate four hours of the 16th, and

4 we can do that normally in three days, so the Thursday is extra.

5 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, I would just like to mention one

6 thing which we were notified by our clients. This extended sitting, we

7 understand the reason, and of course we have to make up for the time

8 which is lost for one of the days. But that extended sitting in court,

9 in fact, causes enormous problems for the accused. In a sense that if

10 they have extended sitting, they are deprived of a walk outside in these

11 days and some other -- there are some other issues, which I'm not

12 prepared, I just wanted to put the Trial Chamber on notice. So we might

13 want to discuss that during the 65 ter conference which you suggested.

14 JUDGE HARHOFF: Very well. Thanks, and I appreciate your

15 bringing this to our attention.

16 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, may I just also clarify one thing

17 because we are, I think, also slightly confused. In the light of

18 Your Honours' ruling about the admission of 92 ter statements and

19 documents, the last one, the one before this we simply handed in the

20 statement with the accompanying documents, and they were numbered by the

21 court clerk. In order to save time so that -- because obviously we are

22 all anxious to save as much time as possible. And I don't know how I

23 have the nerve to say that, but nonetheless I'm saying it. Would it be

24 possible for the case manager, Mr. Smith, to send to the Registry the

25 list and then pre-number them, so we only take about one minute or

Page 1218

1 something to do that.

2 JUDGE HARHOFF: Yes. I think this is a matter that we should

3 discuss at the 65 ter conference when we get together at that occasion.

4 Our legal officer has suggested that if the Prosecution sends us the -- a

5 list of attached documents in advance, and also sends that list to the

6 Registrar, then the Registrar might pre-number these additional exhibits

7 so that even before we enter into courtroom, we know what they are and

8 what numbers will be given to them, provided they are admitted. That may

9 be one way of going about it, but I suggest that we take it up at the

10 65 ter conference.

11 Anything else?

12 I give the floor back to the presiding judge.

13 JUDGE HALL: Thank you. We take the adjournment now, and we

14 resume in Courtroom II on Monday morning at 9 a.m. And I trust that

15 everyone has a safe and enjoyable weekend.

16 MS. KORNER: I am sorry, Your Honour, we looked at it, and we

17 thought that it was Courtroom I because of the videolink. Maybe I'm

18 wrong. I mean, I'm not sure how we can do a videolink in Courtroom II.

19 JUDGE HALL: We are scheduled in Courtroom II. We'll see what

20 happens on Monday morning.

21 MS. KORNER: Yes, we will.

22 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.

23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.39 p.m.

24 to be reconvened on Monday, the 12th day of

25 October, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.