Page 6498

 1                           Thursday, 18 February 2010 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  This is case

 6     number IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and Stojan

 7     Zupljanin.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  [Microphone not activated]

 9             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you, Your Honours.  On behalf of the

10     Prosecution I'm Thomas Hannis along with our acting case manager Jasmina

11     Bosnjakovic.  And I would like to indicate that there's three brief

12     procedural matters I would like to raise before the witness comes in.

13             MR. ZECEVIC:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Slobodan Zecevic,

14     Slobodan Cvijetic, and Eugene O'Sullivan appearing for Stanisic Defence

15     this afternoon.

16             MR. PANTELIC:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  For Zupljanin

17     Defence appearing today Igor Pantelic and Dragan Krgovic.  Thank you.

18             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Mr. Hannis.

19             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you, Your Honours.  The three matters:  One

20     relates to a witness yesterday at the transcript page number 6481

21     beginning at line 4, et cetera.  Ms. Korner had referred to -- to

22     document 65 ter 9020, which was an excerpt from the witness's suspect

23     interview that she showed during re-direct examination, but I don't think

24     it was tendered as an exhibit.  She asked me to request that it be

25     tendered for purposes of the record.

Page 6499

 1             JUDGE HALL:  [Microphone not activated]

 2             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm not sure, Your Honours, if -- what does it

 3     refer to?  The excerpt of -- of witness's interview?

 4             MR. HANNIS:  I think it was shown a page or two pages from the

 5     transcript of his interview and because it was shown in court, we felt

 6     that it should be an exhibit.

 7             MR. ZECEVIC:  The ones which -- which Ms. Korner was reading

 8     from?

 9             MR. HANNIS:  I -- I'm sorry [Overlapping speakers] ...

10             MR. ZECEVIC:  [Overlapping speakers] ...  yeah, yeah.  I think

11     Ms. Korner was actually reading from the document.  She was reading into

12     the transcript from the document.

13             JUDGE HALL:  So you're query is why does it have to be exhibited?

14             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yeah, that is correct.  But if that is -- if that

15     particular passage is in question, is that what the Prosecution would

16     like, if we can have some -- some -- some time during the course of

17     the -- today's court that we can perhaps give our -- our position on --

18     during the break, or after the break, immediately.

19             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Maybe the -- sorry.  Maybe the Prosecution should

20     simply just specify exactly which parts it is you wish to have exhibited.

21     Whether it is only the parts that she read out or maybe the pages

22     surrounding that little passage.

23             MR. HANNIS:  My understanding it was only the pages she read out,

24     but if the Defence counsel can review the document and they are satisfied

25     that she read it accurately, then I think we don't need to tender it as

Page 6500

 1     an exhibit.

 2             MR. ZECEVIC:  Okay.  Thank you.

 3             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honours, the second matter relates to a witness

 4     coming next week.  The first witness scheduled next week is not scheduled

 5     to arrive until late Saturday night, as I understand it.  He will be

 6     proofed by the Prosecution on Sunday.  As a large number of documents and

 7     an audio of his prior taped interview as well as some intercepts to

 8     listen to, the gist of it is I think the Prosecution, Ms. Korner will

 9     take all day with him Sunday, and the Defence has requested to see him

10     for, I believe, a couple of hours or three hours altogether.  I think

11     we're currently scheduled to sit on Monday morning, so the Prosecution

12     would request for the witness's sake and the parties that if we could

13     possibly have an afternoon sitting.  I don't have if the courtroom is

14     available or not.  Or if not, begin the witness on Tuesday morning,

15     rather than Monday morning.

16             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Pantelic, were you nodding your head?

17             MR. PANTELIC:  It's okay.  Yeah, yeah, it's okay with us, Your

18     Honour, well, depending on the availability of the courtroom.

19             JUDGE HALL:  So the Registry would advise us in the course of

20     today as to the availability of the courtroom.

21             MR. HANNIS:  On the counter it does currently look like Courtroom

22     I is available in the afternoon, but we'll check.

23             The third matter, Your Honour, the last matter relates to today's

24     witness, the next witness.  I had filed a motion yesterday to amend the

25     65 ter list to add two exhibits and seek to use those with your leave

Page 6501

 1     with this witness.  One is a -- a map of the Pale area, and one is a

 2     payroll document from November 1992, which lists the names of various

 3     personnel in the state or national security of the RS MUP.

 4             I had asked Defence if they had any objection.  Mr. Zecevic had

 5     indicated to me he did not, but I haven't heard back from the Zupljanin

 6     Defence yet as to their position.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Well [Microphone not activated] in respect of that

 8     motion.

 9             Late yesterday afternoon, the Prosecution filed a motion to amend

10     its Rule 65 ter exhibit list to add two documents in relation to ST-211.

11     As the Trial Chamber will deny the motion for reasons to be explained,

12     the Defence will not be asked to respond.

13             The Chamber considers that the Prosecution had -- has not fully

14     argued the motion as required under the Rules.  In particular, the

15     Prosecution has not provided any arguments justifying the very late

16     filing of the request.  The Chamber notes that one of the two documents

17     is a map, a document that likely will have been available to the

18     Prosecution for a long time.

19             The second document is a payroll document.  The Prosecution does

20     not make any attempt to establish that it has been diligent in seeking to

21     add this document to its list, so the motion is hereby denied.

22             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honour, may I inquire?

23             If it is simply the failure to explain what the relevance of the

24     map is that led to the decision?

25             JUDGE HALL:  I -- I thought, Mr. Hannis, that the reasons

Page 6502

 1     sufficiently explain why the motion is denied.

 2             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honour, I would indicate there are two Pale

 3     maps on the Prosecution's 65 ter list.  However, they're less adequate

 4     for the purposes that I propose to show a map to this witness and that

 5     they are simply, one is more or less a schematic showing the roads in the

 6     Pale municipality.  The other map is -- it is a poor quality copy.  It

 7     does show downtown Pale and the police station and the cultural -- the

 8     former cultural centre of the gymnasium where some of the non-Serbs were

 9     detained, which is part of one of our scheduled incidents.

10             But this witness, in his job, in the national security in

11     providing protection for certain individuals, talks about the locations

12     of hotels where those individuals stayed.  I -- I thought it was helpful

13     for his testimony.  But I will do without it in light of your ruling.

14             And with that, I have nothing further.

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             JUDGE HALL:  Late yesterday, the Prosecution circulated by way of

17     e-mail a proofing note of ST-211.  At the end of that note, there is a

18     paragraph where the Prosecution states that, and I quote:

19             "In the event that the above information goes beyond the scope of

20     the original Rule 65 ter summary for this witness, this proofing note is

21     intended to amend that summary and to notify of the Prosecution's intent

22     to lead the above evidence, subject to the approval of the Trial

23     Chamber."

24             The Trial Chamber has, in the past, cautioned the Prosecution on

25     this matter of motions through informal means and will therefore not

Page 6503

 1     recognise the request made in the proofing note as a motion.  However,

 2     given the formulation of the note, if the Prosecution intends to lead

 3     evidence beyond what is in the Rule 65 ter summary, it should provide

 4     arguments why the Chamber should grant such an expansion, and the Chamber

 5     would rule on it at that time.

 6             There is a third ruling that the -- that we have.

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, that -- that other matter [Microphone not

 9     activated]

10             Sorry.  That other matter we will deal with at a later stage.  It

11     concerns Witness ST-216.

12             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, I just -- while Your Honours was

13     giving the rulings, I checked the -- the e-court.  65 ter, the document

14     which -- which Mr. Hannis wanted -- on behalf of Ms. Korner to introduce

15     into evidence, is basically the whole -- the whole statement.  65 ter

16     9020 does not refer to the specific pages of the document but is his

17     whole interview.

18             Therefore, I mean, I'm not sure what is the -- the submission of

19     the Prosecution.  Do they want the whole interview in, or just -- or just

20     a part --

21             MR. HANNIS:  My understanding it was only the portions that were

22     read out to the witness.

23             JUDGE HALL:  It was read out.

24             MR. HANNIS:  The point is if the Defence has any disagreement

25     about whether or not she read it out accurately, then I think we would

Page 6504

 1     need to show with the page as to what he actually said.  If she read it

 2     out accurately, there's not need to put in an excerpt from the document.

 3             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, as far as I -- as far as I remember,

 4     Ms. Korner was reading accurately, but she was jumping from one thing to

 5     the other.  So basically we wouldn't have a problem if this particular

 6     part, these two or three pages, are -- are -- are offered as exhibit.

 7     But then I think that the Prosecution would actually have to make a -- an

 8     excerpt from his interview of these relevant pages and offer that and

 9     then we can give our final position.

10             Thank you.

11             JUDGE HALL:  So, Mr. Hannis, you will refine the application that

12     you're actually making so we know what it is the Prosecution is seeking

13     to exhibit.  Is that where we are?

14             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honour, I will ask Ms. Korner to deal with that

15     and verify whether or not what she read in was accurate.  If that is, the

16     transcript can stand as it is and there doesn't need to be any admission

17     of the 65 ter document in whole or in part, because I think what she

18     wanted is in evidence, in the transcript.  So I will check with her, and

19     we will get back to you.

20             With regard to your most recent decision on the Prosecution's

21     proofing note, I'm sorry, I don't have it in front of me, but very early

22     on in the case, I had a witness where an issue arose during proofing

23     where in my view it was -- it was a close call as to whether or not what

24     he had raised was outside the scope of the 65 ter summary.  In erring on

25     the side of caution, I filed a motion asking that we be permitted to

Page 6505

 1     amend the 65 ter and lead that evidence.  And at that time Your Honours

 2     indicated -- I guess you felt that I didn't need to file that motion,

 3     that it didn't go outside the scope.

 4             Now, the 65 ter summary for this witness is in rather broad

 5     terms, and so, again, I think I took the cautious approach and indicated

 6     that if the determination was this new information goes beyond the scope

 7     then I would seek permission to lead it because I believe it is important

 8     evidence.  It deals with what has been a contested issue in this case and

 9     I think will continue to be a continued issue.  And in the 65 ter summary

10     for this witness it says:

11             "By the nature of his position in the RS MUP, that position was

12     chief of administration for security of persons and facilities in the

13     State Security Service, the witness will provide evidence of the workings

14     of the State Security Service."

15             This new evidence in particular relates to what we say is the

16     personal security that was provided for Minister Stanisic and that was

17     being provided by someone or -- some other group rather than the state

18     security personnel.  We say it was Dusko Malovic and his Special Police

19     platoon.

20             I guess I need to know from Your Honours whether you see that as

21     being beyond the scope of the 65 ter summary.  If it is not, then can I

22     lead the evidence.

23             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Hannis, it will -- it will always be the case

24     that the appreciation of counsel on one side, or counsel on the other

25     side, or the Chamber, might not be identical as to whether something is

Page 6506

 1     new and therefore could be led, or something is wholly outside the scope

 2     of what were the -- the other side had been put on notice in relation to.

 3             And the Chamber is not going to attempt to -- to give a -- a

 4     general anticipatory ruling in these matters because it can't.  What it

 5     says is, in this case, that note appearing at the bottom of a proofing

 6     note was not a motion, A; and B, what was, it appeared to us, that this

 7     was the type of new material which required a motion, a proper motion.

 8     That's all he said.  And you would -- I would remind you, as to the

 9     ruling in this respect, that we will consider a motion when it is made.

10     But there is no motion before -- there is no proper motion before the

11     Chamber at this point.

12             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honours, in that case I would seek leave to

13     make an oral application to you at this time to lead that evidence.

14             JUDGE HALL:  [Microphone not activated]

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for His Honour, please.

16             JUDGE HALL:  Before I call on the other side to respond to your

17     motion without notice in the proper sense, what are the reasons?

18             MR. HANNIS:  The reasons are, Your Honour, I first learned of

19     there evidence yesterday when I proofed the witness after having met him

20     for the first time.  When he was interviewed in June of 2009 by the

21     Prosecution he was interviewed by investigator Paul Grady.  If you saw

22     the interview you would see much of the focus in that interview is

23     related more to the Karadzic case than this case.  This witness worked in

24     providing personal security in the RS MUP for high individuals like Mr.

25     Karadzic, Mr. Krajisnik, the prime minister, et cetera.  So the focus was

Page 6507

 1     more on that.  He was not asked about who provided security for Mico

 2     Stanisic.

 3             In interviewing him, I asked that question.  He told me, We did

 4     not.  I said, Who did?  And that's where the information came in about

 5     Dusko Malovic.  So as soon as I learned of it, I put it in the proofing

 6     note, forwarded it to the Defence, and now I'm making my application.

 7             You will have noted on one of our organisational charts for the

 8     RS MUP for April through December 1992, we have Mico Stanisic at the top,

 9     the Prosecution has drawn a line out to the right to the Sokolac Special

10     Police platoon or company, I can't remember how it is designated on the

11     chart.

12             This was a matter, I think we told Your Honours about early on

13     when we were trying to reach agreement with the Defence about the

14     organisational charts, and this is one that the -- that the Stanisic

15     Defence took issue with.  We say that this group was under the direct

16     supervision of the minister, and the Defence has been denying that and

17     saying, as I understand it, that they were not related to the minister in

18     that fashion.

19             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]  Your Honour, this witness was

20     interviewed on the 4th of May, 2009, a month before the Prosecution

21     submitted their pre-trial brief --

22             MR. HANNIS:  I should correct Mr. Zecevic.  If he checks, May 4th

23     was the first contact with the witness, but the interview was not carried

24     out at that time because there was an issue about his status as a

25     suspect.  He requested an attorney.  The full interview did not take

Page 6508

 1     place until the 6th of June.

 2             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]  Thank you.  But the situation is

 3     only worse in that case, because in our view, the explanation is not good

 4     enough of the fact that was not asked about it.  On the 6th of June 2009,

 5     we were supposed to already commence the trial.  We were supposed to

 6     start in the summer, but we started in September, and the Prosecution was

 7     duty-bound to ask the witness about all the relevant facts for which he

 8     was being called as a witness in this case, so that's why we oppose it.

 9             Thank you.

10             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  Is there a response from counsel for

11     Zupljanin?

12             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we endorse what our

13     learned friend Mr. Zecevic said.

14             MR. HANNIS:  If I may make a brief reply.

15             I would indicate to that you the remedy, if you think of remedy

16     as necessary, is to allow the Defence more time to prepare for

17     cross-examination rather than exclude this element -- this evidence which

18     we say is important and relevant to you.  You should admit the evidence

19     but give the Prosecution -- the Defence more time if that's what they

20     need.

21             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Zecevic, I suppose I should have asked that were

22     the Chamber inclined to grant the application on the understanding that

23     the Defence would require more time, how much time would you consider

24     reasonable for the Defence to deal with this new material?

25             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, Your Honours, I -- I -- I don't know what --

Page 6509

 1     what the -- what the evidence will be.  I mean --

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Well, you have it in summary.

 3             MR. ZECEVIC:  In the proofing -- in the proofing note.  Yes, but

 4     it depends what is the scope of -- of the -- of the -- of the direct

 5     examination of the witness and what specific data or details will be --

 6     would the witness give.

 7             Now, only then I will be able to -- to assess -- assess the time

 8     that I need.  But I assume that I would -- I would need just maybe a

 9     couple of hours preparation, not more than that.

10             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Hannis, could we just inquire whether your --

13     whether the new information that has been revealed is that this witness

14     was not a member of the Sokolac SJB Special Police platoon which is

15     depicted in your chart.

16             Where does this -- so --

17             MR. HANNIS:  No, this witness was not a member of the Sokolac

18     platoon.  He was a member of the national security, and he was a head of

19     what was called the 5th Administration which was responsible for security

20     of persons and facilities.  But he is going to testify that he and his

21     group provided protection for the Presidency for the National Assembly

22     for the prime minister.  But they did not provide personal protection for

23     Minister Stanisic.  That was being done by Dusko Malovic and others.

24             JUDGE HARHOFF:  So there's nothing new really for what -- I mean

25     -- because this chart seems to suggests that it was Drago Malovic who

Page 6510

 1     provided protection to Mr. Stanisic, and that's exactly what the witness

 2     today has confirmed; is that correct?

 3             MR. HANNIS:  Yeah.  But up to now it's just the chart.  This is a

 4     living person who is going to say, I was there, my responsibility was

 5     personal protection.  We didn't do it.  I saw Dusko Malovic with the

 6     minister going to see Karadzic and Krajisnik and -- that's new.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Just for us to understand, what this witness is

 8     going to confirm today is actually is that this map is correct.  Is that

 9     how we are do understand it?

10             MR. HANNIS:  He is going -- I don't know that he can make that

11     conclusion.  I think he with provide an opinion that that's what this

12     group was doing on the occasions he saw them, given that he himself is

13     somewhat of an expert on personal protection because that was his job for

14     years, and can he testified about seeing these men in camouflage with

15     weapons escorting Mr. Stanisic when he came to the building across the

16     street and that's the building where Karadzic and Krajisnik had offices,

17     and he saw that three or four occasions in Pale.  That's the evidence

18     he's going to present.  We think that's pretty good evidence about that

19     issue, and it's better than just a line on the chart, because the Defence

20     didn't agree to that line on the chart.

21             MR. ZECEVIC:  The Defence still doesn't agree with the line on

22     the chart, but the point of the matter, Your Honours, is that we

23     understood the -- the Prosecutor's case to be, and the chart, the

24     specific chart, that you were just showing that this special unit from

25     Sokolac was under the auspices of the minister the very same way as the

Page 6511

 1     special brigade headed -- commanded by Mr. Karisik and that is the case

 2     of -- that was the case of the Office of the Prosecutor so far as I

 3     understood it and from the pre-trial brief and from the last six months.

 4             Now, this is a completely new piece of information for us that

 5     actually the allegation from the -- from -- from the Office of the

 6     Prosecutor is that Malovic's unit was actually providing protection for

 7     Mr. Stanisic.

 8             I would like -- I would like my learned friend to -- to state to

 9     us what is the nature of their case so we would be able to -- to deal

10     with that.

11             Thank you very much.

12             MR. HANNIS:  If you want to hear from me?

13             First of all, I think my learned friend incorrectly states it

14     when we said that this group is under the auspices of the minister the

15     very same way the special brigade commanded by Mr. Karisik was.  Mr.

16     Karisik and the special brigade were specially provided for and they are

17     in the orders and in the instructions.  We don't have a document like

18     that about this group, and our position is this was much more informal ad

19     hoc, and we don't have a document showing them under the law on the

20     ministry, and we don't see a provision for such a group.  We don't see a

21     decision establishing this group.  So we say this was more ad hoc.  This

22     seemed to be his personal choice and these were his guys.  Not only doing

23     personal security, but we believe we'll present evidence later on that

24     they did other things as well besides personal security including perhaps

25     being involved in one of the -- a crime that has been discussed that was

Page 6512

 1     sought to be added to the indictment is not a charged Defence but the

 2     Prosecution was under the impression that we are allowed to lead evidence

 3     about that later on to the extent that it shows knowledge, lack of

 4     mistake, command and control, et cetera.

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6                           [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

 7             JUDGE HALL:  The Chamber grants the motion of the Prosecution in

 8     this regard to allow this -- to allow the Prosecution to lead this

 9     additional evidence from the Witness ST-211 and will hold itself alert to

10     such application as counsel for the Defence may make in terms of needing

11     more time to deal with its cross-examination.

12             So the witness may be -- the usher may --

13             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE HALL:  -- escort the witness to the stand.

15             [Microphone not activated] ... alerted -- sorry.  Thank you.

16     While the witness is coming in we have just been alerted that the court

17     management and support services confirms that it is possible to move this

18     case to the afternoon of Monday, the 22nd.

19             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you.  I will notify all the interested

20     parties.

21                           [The witness entered court]

22             JUDGE HARHOFF:  This option was -- was suggested in order to

23     provide an opportunity for the Defence, if -- in case they need more time

24     to have Monday morning to discuss it with their clients so as we can

25     continue on Monday afternoon.

Page 6513

 1             But, of course, if you in the end you don't think you need extra

 2     time to carry out your cross-examination with this witness, then, there's

 3     no need to move the session on Monday.

 4             MR. ZECEVIC:  I believe Your Honours, the session on Monday

 5     afternoon was -- was related to a new coming witness, not this witness.

 6     But the witness who is -- who is -- who is only coming on Saturday, late

 7     in the night, and then the Defence is meeting him on Sunday morning, but

 8     that would sort of limit the time for the preparation of our learned

 9     friend's need for that witness.

10             So it doesn't have anything to do with this witness.

11             JUDGE HARHOFF:  I'm sorry.  I'm sorry.  I misunderstood.

12             JUDGE HALL:  Sorry.  But could I nevertheless inquire as to

13     whether now that we know the availability of the courtroom, the

14     Prosecution -- this is -- that is -- that you're in fact making, or you

15     were alerting us that you may be making it?

16             MR. HANNIS:  No, Your Honour, that is our request.

17             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yes.  And we --

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19             MR. ZECEVIC:  We don't oppose, of course.

20             JUDGE HALL:  Sorry.

21             MR. ZECEVIC:  We're not opposing that request from the

22     Prosecution.

23                           [Trial Chamber confers]

24             JUDGE HALL:  So when we take the adjournment tomorrow we will

25     resume at 2.15 on Monday afternoon.  That is the position.

Page 6514

 1             MR. HANNIS:  [Overlapping speakers] ... a new witness because I

 2     anticipate --

 3             JUDGE HALL:  [Overlapping speakers] ... with the new witness.

 4     Now the other point that Judge Harhoff raises is we may still have to

 5     come back to that.

 6             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honours, I think the original time estimated

 7     for the Prosecution with this witness was four hours.  I think I will

 8     take two hours or less.  I have talked to Mr. Zecevic and he indicated --

 9             MR. ZECEVIC:  If this concerns my inability to state how much

10     time for this additional evidence that this witness is providing I might

11     need.

12             JUDGE HALL:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

13             MR. ZECEVIC:  [Overlapping speakers] ...  the concern of the

14     Trial Chamber.

15             MR. HANNIS:  Are we sitting in the morning or the afternoon

16     tomorrow?

17             JUDGE HALL:  [Microphone not activated]

18             MR. HANNIS:  I'm certainly not objecting to Mr. Zecevic having

19     overnight to prepare for this limited bit of evidence that's new.  I

20     mean, if he is finished with everything else at 5.00 we can start with

21     his other counsel and he can have overnight.  I think that's reasonable.

22             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you.

23             JUDGE HALL:  [Overlapping speakers]

24             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you, Mr. Hannis.  You are very considerate.

25     I would like to rest a bit during the night, but I understand and I

Page 6515

 1     appreciate.

 2             Now, Your Honours, definitely overnight will be more than enough

 3     time for me to prepare for this witness.  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  [Microphone not activated] Yes, please, swear in the

 5     witness.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 7     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Good afternoon, sir.  And thank you for coming to

10     this Tribunal to give your testimony today.

11             Before I explain to you the proceedings, I would like you to

12     state your name.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Milan Scekic.

14             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you, Mr. Scekic.  When were you born and

15     where?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 1st January, 1951, in Sarajevo.

17             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.  And what is your current occupation?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm retired.

19             JUDGE HARHOFF:  And what was your occupation at the relevant time

20     in 1992?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have a degree in law, and in 1992

22     I was working in the CSB Sarajevo as chief of security, in charge of

23     providing security for persons and facilities.

24             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.

25             Could I ask you of your ethnicity?

Page 6516

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Montenegrin.

 2             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.

 3             Sir, have you ever testified before in this Tribunal or in any

 4     other national jurisdiction in relation to war crimes?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Apart from the statement I gave to

 6     the OTP investigators, this is the first time I'm giving evidence

 7     anywhere.

 8             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.

 9             In that case, I will just briefly explain to you how the

10     proceedings are going to unfold here for you.

11             You are being called as a witness for the Prosecution, who is

12     sitting to your right, and the Prosecution has asked for, all together,

13     four hours to take you through its examination-in-chief.  I now

14     understand that Mr. Hannis was going to be the counsel for the

15     Prosecution, will use less than four hours.  And when Mr. Hannis has

16     completed his examination-in-chief, it will be for the Defence of

17     Mr. Stanisic and Mr. Zupljanin to do their cross-examination, and I

18     believe that the Defence for Mr. Stanisic has asked for - how much time,

19     Mr. Zecevic?

20             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours.

21             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Two and a half hours.

22             MR. ZECEVIC:  We asked two and a half hours, yes.

23             JUDGE HALL:  And Mr. Pantelic.

24             MR. KRGOVIC:  We asked for half an hour.

25             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Just one half hour.

Page 6517

 1             MR. KRGOVIC:  Sorry, just half an hour.

 2             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Yes.

 3             Now, Mr. Scekic, there is an issue that has just arisen relating

 4     to some new evidence that was revealed during the proofing session that

 5     you had with the Prosecution a couple of days ago.  In order to cover

 6     this new information, the Defence for Mr. Stanisic may wish to ask for

 7     more time to conduct its cross-examination, or, rather, may wish to have

 8     some time to prepare for its cross-examination, but we hope that we will

 9     still be able to complete your entire testimony by the end of tomorrow's

10     session.

11             At the end of the cross-examination by the Defence counsels, the

12     Judges may also wish to put some questions to you and, of course, there

13     will also be an opportunity for the Prosecution to put a few questions to

14     you in re-examination after the completion of the Defence counsels'

15     cross-examination.

16             We will have a break every 90 minutes because the tapes for the

17     recording of these proceedings need to be changed, so every one hour and

18     a half there will be a 20 minutes' break, and the sessions here, the

19     hearings shall have to adjourn at 7.00 tonight, and then we will resume

20     tomorrow morning at 9.00, also in this courtroom.

21             I now give you -- give the floor to Mr. Hannis, who will begin

22     his examination-in-chief, and if at any point you need to take a break or

23     to put a question to you relating to your testimony, then please do not

24     hesitate.

25             There's one more caution that I wish to bring to you, and that

Page 6518

 1     is, to observe a small pause between the questions and the answers.  This

 2     is not so much a problem when the Prosecution is examining you because

 3     you do not speak the same language, but when it comes to the Defence

 4     cross-examination, it is very easy for people who speak the same language

 5     just to answer and -- and ask questions overlapping each other and that

 6     will make it impossible for the interpreters to offer a solid

 7     interpretation of what is being said in the courtroom.

 8             So just take it easy, and be brief in your answers as much as you

 9     can.

10             Mr. Hannis, the floor is yours.

11             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you, Your Honours.

12                           WITNESS:  MILAN SCEKIC

13                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

14                           Examination by Mr. Hannis:

15        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Scekic.  I have difficulty pronouncing your

16     name so I will probably just call you witness.

17             You said you retired.  When did you retire?

18        A.   On the 30th of June, 1996.

19        Q.   And what did you retire from?  What was your profession?

20        A.   Well, I was a trained lawyer.

21        Q.   And for whom did you work?

22        A.   I worked at the service of security, state security, in the

23     Ministry of the Interior of Bosnia-Herzegovina in the CSB of Sarajevo.

24        Q.   And can you tell us when you began your service with the state

25     security in the Ministry of Interior?

Page 6519

 1        A.   I had a scholarship from the State Security Service, and I

 2     started working in 1979 in a centre that covered ten urban and ten

 3     peripheral municipalities, which made the work of the CSB rather complex.

 4        Q.   And your office was physically located where during that time?

 5        A.   My office was in central Sarajevo, almost -- in the building of

 6     the Republic Ministry of the Interior.  The two buildings next to each

 7     other.  First I worked on defence preparations, in the Republic

 8     Secretariat for Internal Affairs.  That's what it was called now -- then,

 9     and then we moved into the building on the Zdravko Sotra Street.

10        Q.   Thank you.  I forgot there was one thing I wanted to mention

11     early on.  Before coming here to The Hague to testify as a witness, you

12     had previously been summons for an interview in May of last year, 2009,

13     as a suspect, and interviewed further on the 6th of June by

14     representatives of the OTP; is that correct?

15        A.   Yes, that is correct.

16        Q.   And you understand now, today, you're appearing before this

17     Tribunal simply as a witness and only a witness?  Not as a suspect.

18        A.   Well, thank you for asking that question.  There are a lot of

19     unpleasant situations one encounters in life, and for me, such a

20     situation was this invitation, or the summons, that I received in

21     June last year.

22             First of all, I couldn't understand a word of it.  Should I

23     clarify for the Trial Chamber?

24             In the second interview, the investigators apologised to me

25     saying the wording was very unfortunate, and that's how we proceeded, and

Page 6520

 1     if more explanation is necessary, I can provide it.

 2        Q.   I don't have any further questions about that.  The other lawyers

 3     or the Judges may later on.

 4             If I may, can I turn to your career in the MUP.

 5             During that interview, I know you mentioned something that you

 6     considered the high point of your career.  Could you tell us briefly when

 7     and what that was?

 8        A.   In the course of my work for the State Security Service I was

 9     chief of security for persons and facilities.  I was appointed to that

10     post in 1983.  I was very professional in my job.  The work of the State

11     Security Service was lawful.  It was based on the rules of procedure of

12     the State Security Service, which rules were the groundwork for all the

13     State Security Services in Yugoslavia.  I received adequate financial

14     remuneration and even some decorations, and the Crown piece of my work

15     was during the Winter Olympics games in Sarajevo in 1984 for which I

16     received special honours for my service.

17             We had a strict hierarchy in the MUP, almost like in the army and

18     we observed it strictly like soldiers.  We did not, however, enjoy

19     certain benefits that normal people do.  We couldn't, for instance take

20     an overdraft in the bank, which was normal for other people.  We couldn't

21     play games like wheels of fortune where you make a payment and then copy

22     the receipt five times and send it to five different addresses.  Some

23     people won cars that way, whereas we received a curricular letter saying

24     that employees of the State Security Service were not allowed to play

25     that game.

Page 6521

 1             I'm just giving you this as an illustration of our great respect

 2     for -- for our management and the rules.

 3        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

 4        A.   We observed them very strictly.

 5        Q.   I need to interrupt you there.  I think you answered my question.

 6             And in 1984, you had only been in the MUP for five years, and you

 7     were involved in providing security for the Olympic Games; is that

 8     correct?

 9        A.   Yes, correct.  Even when I was working on defence preparations, I

10     achieved a very good performance that recommended me to -- to the organs

11     who had appointed me in the first place.

12        Q.   I agree.  I want to ask you, in 1990 and 1991, were you still

13     working in the centre in Sarajevo, in -- in your administration for

14     protection of persons and facilities?

15        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, let me just correct you, it was just a section

16     whereas the administration was at the level of the Republic Secretariat

17     for Internal Affairs, what we call MUP.  But that doesn't matter.  The

18     Sarajevo centre was the strongest in the republic, and everything that

19     happened in Bosnia and Herzegovina that mattered happened mainly in the

20     capital, Sarajevo.

21             Yes, I was working there in 1990 and 1991, but the circumstances

22     had changed.  Did I go to work but nobody asked me what I was doing, nor

23     did I ask any questions of anyone.  After the multi-party elections,

24     things went haywire.

25        Q.   Thank you.  I'll get into that in a little bit.

Page 6522

 1             Who was your -- who was your boss?  Who was your immediate

 2     superior in 1991?

 3        A.   My immediate superior in 1991 was Borisa Delic, I think, or was

 4     it Slobodan Skipina -- no, no, Borisa Delic.  Slobodan Skipina was the

 5     head of the security services centre in 1990.  And at the time of

 6     multi-party elections, Munir Alibabic came to that post.

 7        Q.   I think you anticipated my next question.  I think the name of

 8     the position at that time in 1990/1991 was the under-secretary for state

 9     security, and the transcript shows that you said the name was Slobodan,

10     but we didn't catch the last name.  Could you repeat that for us?

11        A.   I don't know.  It was -- if it was interpreted well.

12             Under-secretary in the State Security Service was Resid Music and

13     Skipina was the chief of the State Security Centre because the centre had

14     two sectors.  The centre had two sectors:  The public security sector and

15     the state security centre.  The chief of the state security sector in

16     1999 -- in 1990 in Sarajevo was Slobodan Skipina.

17             The chief of the state security was Borisa Delic, and I think

18     Mirza Grabonjic was the chief of the public security sector, but I'm not

19     sure of the public security sector.

20        Q.   Thank you.  My next question then deals with the organisation

21     within the State Security Service in 1991 and early 1992.

22             In your interview you talked about lines of work or

23     administrations that were numbered 01 through 07 or 08.  Could you

24     briefly number those for us and tell us what each one related to?  01 was

25     what?

Page 6523

 1        A.   Line 1 dealt with foreign intelligence services.  Line 2 dealt

 2     with hostile immigration.  Line 03 dealt with the enemy within.  Line 04

 3     dealt with technology.  Line 05 dealt with defence preparations.  Line 06

 4     dealt with the security of persons and facilities.  Line 07 was the

 5     analysis department.  And line 08 was the sporting services -- support

 6     services.

 7             Somewhere in the text will you see also the lines of work of 05,

 8     06 but they all have to do with the security of persons and facilities.

 9     The classification, as it existed, was the same for the entire

10     Yugoslavia.  Now, whether the security of persons was 05 or 06 and

11     whether analysis really had that number or not, overall I don't know, but

12     the lines as I described them applied to Sarajevo.

13             At the level of the Ministry of the Interior, you had

14     administrations matching these numbers.  So line 01 which dealt with the

15     same kind of issues.  Line 02, et cetera, and the heads of

16     administrations were inspectors who co-ordinated that line, various lines

17     of work.  And through various circulars, they suggested how work should

18     be done.

19             So within the ministry you had administrations which covered the

20     work of all the centres throughout Bosnia-Herzegovina and the centres

21     were in Sarajevo, Mostar, Zenica, Gorazde, Tuzla, Banja Luka, Bihac and

22     -- I think there were eight.  I don't know if I have neglected to mention

23     one.

24        Q.   Thank you, sir --

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness repeat what he said last.

Page 6524

 1     The interpreter didn't hear.

 2             MR. HANNIS:

 3        Q.   I'm sorry, witness, the interpreters said they couldn't hear the

 4     last thing you said and ask if you could repeat.

 5        A.   Doboj.  Doboj.

 6        Q.   Ah, thank you.

 7             Now I understand that you've been talking about the state

 8     security side of the ministry.  On the public security side, did they

 9     also have lines of work or administrations in their organisational

10     structure?  But they weren't the same ones you had; is that correct?

11        A.   That's correct.  They had a different organisation.

12        Q.   And some of those included the police administration, the

13     administration for crime prevention, things like that?

14        A.   Yes, you're right.

15        Q.   You made reference to this earlier, sir, that after the

16     multi-party elections things began to take a turn for the worse in the

17     Ministry of Interior.

18             Is it fair to say that one of the reasons for that was because a

19     number of non-professionals were being appointed to high positions within

20     the MUP based on political affiliation?

21        A.   I think that the main problem lay in the Serbian Democratic

22     Party, which, following multi-party elections, came out of the agreement

23     with the other two parties holding the baby.  Or it simply didn't know

24     what it was -- which post it was supposed to take in the Ministry of

25     Interior, because the Ministry of Interior did provide levers of power.

Page 6525

 1     If you get the post of a speaker of parliament as opposed to the prime

 2     minister's post then you know that the government is the one that creates

 3     policies then it is much better to have the post of a prime minister than

 4     that of speaker of the parliament because the government is the one

 5     drafting legislation or bills and forwarding them to the parliament.

 6     Then you wouldn't get very important posts on the government, like that

 7     of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs or Ministry of Defence.  Instead, you

 8     were given some peripheral ministries or perhaps not peripheral but at

 9     any rate it is it much more important to hold a post of a minister of

10     finance who is practically Deputy Prime Minister than to hold a post of a

11     ministry of education and culture.  I'm not saying that it is less

12     important.  But under the circumstances it was much more important --

13        Q.   I'm sorry to interrupt.  I'm just talking about within the

14     Ministry of the Interior.  Would you agree that part of the problem was

15     that non-professionals were being appointed to high positions within the

16     MUP, and based on political affiliations, whether it was with the SDA,

17     the HDZ, or the SDS?

18        A.   I absolutely agree with you.  An individual was appointed to the

19     post of the Ministry of the Interior who was of a rather suspicious past

20     who used to work as a police officer in one of the police stations of the

21     city of Sarajevo and came to the post of the ministry only because he was

22     a member of the SDS.

23             Also, on the Serb side, there were individuals who were appointed

24     to high positions, and I did not believe that they were qualified for

25     that.  And I'm primarily referring to Mr. Vito Zepinic who does hold a

Page 6526

 1     doctoral degree, and I do have every respect for his scholarly work.  But

 2     if you come across a problem and you address him for a solution, he could

 3     only shrug his shoulders, and I did not find that helpful.  I told him,

 4     I'm approaching you because I would like you to solve my problem.

 5        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

 6        A.   The Serb personnel --

 7        Q.   I'm sorry, I need to try and keep your answers short and focussed

 8     on my question.

 9             And I have to indicate, I think maybe one of your answers was --

10     was incorrectly translated.  At line 16 through 18.  You mentioned the

11     post of the minister of the interior, an individual got appointed who had

12     a suspicious past and came to the post only because he was a member of

13     the SDS.

14             I think you're referring to the SDA there.  Am I correct?  When

15     you were talking about the person with the suspicious past.

16        A.   Yes, yes, you're right.  It's an error perhaps in interpretation.

17             He was a member of the SDA.

18        Q.   Thank you.  But from the rest of your answer, I gather you are

19     agreeing with me the problem was -- was on all three sides, that

20     political people were being put into professional police jobs and many of

21     these were people who had no prior experience or training to be police

22     officers or police officials.

23        A.   Well, perhaps they did have some experience, but there were other

24     individuals who had more extensive experience than them.

25             If you look at the persons who were appointed to posts within the

Page 6527

 1     Ministry of the Interior of Bosnia-Herzegovina compared to the

 2     individuals who worked in the State Security Service under the

 3     classification of jobs there were 120 posts.  And there were only a

 4     handful of these individuals who were appointed to posts in the ministry,

 5     and they had hardly assumed their positions before they were replaced.

 6             There was one top-quality professional and one of the extensive

 7     individuals in the State Security Service who was one such case.

 8        Q.   All right.  I understand you feel strongly about this, and I --

 9     but I will need to try and keep you -- or ask you to keep your answer

10     limited to my question.

11             And I think this comes through in -- in your answers, that this

12     situation caused a lot of dissatisfaction within the MUP on the part of

13     you all -- from all ethnicities who had been working there as

14     professionals before the multi-party elections.  Would you agree with

15     that, that this situation caused a lot of dissatisfaction?

16        A.   Yes, you're right.  And if I can make -- give you one more

17     example.

18        Q.   If it's brief, please.

19        A.   Will be brief, and I've already related it to you.

20             Since the under-secretary for state security of the former

21     Yugoslavia was a post based on the parity principle, once Mr. Mustafic

22     {as interpreted] term of office who was from Croatia expired, Sredoje

23     Novic was pointed, however, as certain personnel officers came to the

24     Ministry of the Interior, this person who was supposed to be the

25     under-secretary was appointed to the Novi Grad municipal SUP and, of

Page 6528

 1     course, this was a terrible demotion and degradation for him, and Sredoje

 2     Novic is now, for instance, minister for civil affairs in the ministerial

 3     council of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please be asked to speak more

 5     slowly.

 6             MR. HANNIS:

 7        Q.   Witness, you're being asked to speak more slowly when you answer.

 8             And would it be fair to say that all of this was also causing

 9     some suspicion and division between the different ethnicities who were

10     employed within the MUP in 1991 and early 1992?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   You mentioned in your interview, I believe, that you became aware

13     of talk within the MUP about forming a separate Serbian MUP.

14             Can you tell us when you first became aware that there was talk

15     like that?  Approximately.  If you can give us a month or a season of the

16     year.

17        A.   The first time I heard of it was in 1992, in late March or

18     earlier April, more likely.  When I came out into the street and met two

19     of my colleagues, I cannot recall their names.  They asked me if I wanted

20     to join them on their way to Pale.  I did, and Mico Stanisic, Dragan

21     Kijac, and chiefs of centres of public security from Sarajevo

22     municipalities were present, as well as the representatives of the ten

23     peripheral municipalities, commanders of police stations who were of Serb

24     ethnicity.  The meeting was brief.  Mico Stanisic was introduced to us as

25     the minister of the interior of Republika Srpska.  We were told that all

Page 6529

 1     of us would keep their posts in Sarajevo.  We were told that if a Muslim

 2     was boss he would remain to do so, but he could not issue orders to you

 3     which were contrary to the interests of the Serb people.

 4             At the time, there was no talk of any sort of classical

 5     separation of the Ministry of the Interior.  Rather, since there were

 6     things happening which could not be averted, we were told that we should

 7     all keep our posts, that a minister would be appointed, that a Muslim

 8     could remain to be our superior, but that he could not ask of us to do

 9     anything that would be contrary to the interests the Serb people.

10        Q.   You talked about -- you talked about this meeting in Pale during

11     your interview in -- in June, after you had been shown a document of a

12     February 11th, 1992 meeting in Banja Luka.

13             Do you remember being shown that document by the investigator?  I

14     can show it to you, if you need.

15        A.   Yes, I recall the document.  I -- it was shown to me in

16     Herceg-Novi.

17        Q.   And we know you did not attend that meeting.  And I think, in

18     June, when you were shown the document, you said that was the first time

19     you had seen that document about that February 11th, 1992 meeting; is

20     that right?

21        A.   That's right.

22        Q.   And in that interview, when you were asked about the date of the

23     meeting in Pale, you said -- well, it was after -- it had to be after the

24     February meeting.  And you thought it was probably sometime in March.

25             Today you said now late March or early April.  I want to ask you,

Page 6530

 1     do you recollect, for example, when -- when the Serbian -- what later

 2     became the Serbian MUP or the RS MUP when Momcilo Mandic and -- and

 3     Milenko Karisik were involved in taking over the school at Vraca.  Do you

 4     remember when that event occurred?

 5        A.   I would like to answer the first question, and this is something

 6     that I with prove because I remembered this later on.  I was issuing a

 7     denial of the lie that was published, and I provided some press

 8     clippings.  I didn't go to my workplace because nobody was there at the

 9     time.  I went to my flat.  This was at the time when it was bombed.  So

10     that's why I think it happened in April, in early April.

11             So, in other words, late March and -- or early April, because in

12     the month of April, there was no one to be found there anymore.  I gave

13     you that photocopy of press clipping from Vecernje Novosti on the 7th and

14     my denial of the 9th of April, 1992.

15        Q.   I understand that.  But let me ask you a couple of questions

16     about the meeting in Pale.  Where in Pale did the meeting --

17             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry, Mr. Hannis, but I believe the witness

18     said on the 7th and my denial of the 9th of April, 1992 and I believe --

19     because it appears to be important.

20             MR. HANNIS:  I know it was April 1992 that he said in his

21     interview and I will agree with that.

22        Q.   Mr. Witness, my question is, the meeting in Pale that you talked

23     about, where in Pale was the meeting held, if you remember?

24        A.   It was held at Kalovita Brda, formally known as the Scout's Hall.

25     The meeting was brief.  We were given the information and parted ways.

Page 6531

 1        Q.   Do you recall who led or chaired the meeting?

 2        A.   I think it was Dragan Kijac who chaired the meeting, and I

 3     believe Mico Stanisic was present as well.  Of course, this was 18 years

 4     ago, and I may be mistaken, but I would really like to give a fair

 5     statement true to what I experienced and what I remember, but I believe

 6     this was the case that Dragan Kijec chaired the meeting and that Mico

 7     Stanisic was present.

 8        Q.   And how was Mico Stanisic referred to at that meeting?

 9             Wait, don't answer.

10             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry.  33, 1, the witness say, I believe

11     Dragan Kijac chaired that meeting and Mico Stanisic was present.  I

12     believe that's what he said.

13             MR. HANNIS:  That's what I heard too.

14        Q.   Is that correct, witness?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And I think you said Mr. Stanisic was referred to by some

17     position.  How was he referred to?

18        A.   I don't think I said that.  I don't think that Mico Stanisic

19     addressed the meeting.  It was only Dragan Kijac who spoke.  He said that

20     a new Ministry of the Interior would be set up and that the future

21     minister would be Mico Stanisic.

22        Q.   Thank you.  So whatever date this meeting occurred, it was before

23     the new separate Serbian MUP had been set up and before Mico Stanisic had

24     been made the minister, right?

25        A.   It is possible that this is the case, based on the conclusions

Page 6532

 1     from Banja Luka.  But to tell you the truth, I don't know.  Because

 2     minutes were compiled in Banja Luka and you gave them to me to read them,

 3     because a decision had been taken in Banja Luka that MUP of Republika

 4     Srpska would be set up.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Based on your answer, it sounds like you were told at

 6     this meeting this was something that was going to happen in the future.

 7     The ministry was going to be established and Mico Stanisic was going to

 8     be made the minister at some point in the future, after the meeting.

 9     That's the way I read your answer in English.

10             Is that what you're saying?

11        A.   Yes, that's right.

12        Q.   Thank you.  When -- when the fighting broke out --

13             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Hannis, if you're going on to something new --

14             MR. HANNIS:  I am, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE HALL:  -- this may be a convenient point.

16             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you.

17             JUDGE HALL:  [Microphone not activated]

18                           [The witness stands down]

19                           --- Recess taken at 3.41 p.m.

20                           --- On resuming at 4.03 p.m.

21                           [The witness takes the stand]

22             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you.

23        Q.   Witness, regarding the meeting in Pale we were talking about

24     before the break, you mentioned Mr. Kijac and Mr. Stanisic at the time

25     meeting.

Page 6533

 1             Do you recall any other persons by name and position who attended

 2     that meeting?

 3        A.   I think Todor Cicovic was there an operative man, a chief of a

 4     detachment in Sokolac, which covered municipality Sokolac, Han Pijesak,

 5     Olovo, and Rogatica.  Dragan Devedlaka may have been there.  Goran

 6     Radovic was there, chief of the public security station from Trnovo.

 7     There were probably more people there, but it's been 18 years.  It's

 8     difficult to remember.

 9        Q.   In the June interview, at page 20 of the transcript T001-1941 you

10     mentioned Mr. Vlaski as well.  Do you recall now if he was there?

11        A.   Yes, I think he was present, but I may be mistaken.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Did you take part at any time in writing new rules or

13     regulations related to the -- the working of the State Security Service

14     or I guess, in the RS MUP, it came to be called the National Security

15     Service?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   Did anyone ever ask you to take part in doing that?

18        A.   No one asked me to get involved.

19        Q.   And do you know why the name was changed from -- from state

20     security to national security?

21        A.   I don't know why the name was changed.  National seems to be the

22     same as state.

23        Q.   Okay.  Were the lines of work the same in the RS MUP state

24     security or National Security Service?

25        A.   It was the same line of work, but the overall situation was

Page 6534

 1     changed.  I don't know if we had enough capacity in terms of personnel

 2     and other resources, but mainly the lines of work were the same.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4        A.   There was no hostile immigration, but other lines of work were

 5     the same.  And there was no preparation for Defence anymore because the

 6     war had already started, and then there were no auxiliary services.

 7     Mainly we dealt with foreign intelligence services that covered various

 8     international humanitarian organisations, journalists, reporters, and

 9     there was the line of work of security for persons and facilities and

10     some more.

11        Q.   Thank you.  I'm sorry, backtrack just for a moment.  One last

12     thing regarding the meeting in Pale.  In travelling to and from Pale from

13     Sarajevo to Pale and back, did you have any trouble getting through?

14     Were there any roadblocks, was anybody shooting at you?  Any of that

15     going on at that time?

16        A.   No, no.  We could travel safely both ways.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Now, after the war did break out, after Vraca was

18     taken over around the 5th of April and shooting started seriously in

19     Sarajevo, where were you and what did you do the rest of the month of

20     April and up to mid-May 1992?

21        A.   I was in Sarajevo.  At that time, I had a bit of trouble with

22     some lies that appeared in the newspapers.  The Sarajevo -- one of the

23     Sarajevo newspapers published a newspaper -- published an article headed:

24     Death From the Roofs, mentioning villains, including some of my

25     colleagues, insinuating that we were killing people around Sarajevo by

Page 6535

 1     sniping.  And as soon as I read the article, I called the editor of that

 2     newspaper, whom I knew.  I asked him where he got that information.  He

 3     said he was surprised himself, but he said, I received the report and had

 4     to publish it.  And then I said, Well, I insist that you publish my

 5     denial in the very next issue, tomorrow morning.  And he say, Okay.  If

 6     the newspaper appears at all.  And I said, Why wouldn't you?  And he

 7     said, Well, even if we manage to print it, you see, there's shooting in

 8     Sarajevo, we don't know if we'd be able to distribute it.  But my denial

 9     appeared on the 9th of April, 1992, and Mr. Kusovac and other state

10     security employee and the town secretary for internal affairs also

11     published a denial.  Later he moved to public security.

12        Q.   In light of what was happening at Sarajevo at the time and a

13     newspaper article like that, did there come a time where you left your

14     home?

15        A.   I went to Grbavica to see my parents.  That very day, the 7th,

16     when I offered my denial, another lie was broadcast, this time on Yutel

17     television and Yutel could be seen all over Yugoslavia.  And I wanted to

18     refute that one as well.  And on the 9th of April, I took a team of TV

19     reporters in to give my denial.  And then came a van full of Green Berets

20     armed with heckler guns.  They arrested me and took me to a cafe not far

21     from Bistrik and from there to the police station of Stari Grad.  I was

22     lucky inasmuch as some assistant was there named Sabovic who recognised

23     me, and thanks to him, they let me go.  I went to my home in Bistrik

24     where I was living at the time.  I spent the night there.  The next day I

25     went to attend the funeral of a neighbour of mine who had been killed.

Page 6536

 1     And at the funeral, I was approached by a colleague of mine who worked in

 2     the town SUP and he asked me to get out of there because these people

 3     were mainly Muslim and they had no trust in me, and I said, Where's the

 4     problem?  Those were lies that were published in the newspapers and on TV

 5     and I denied that.  I don't know what else I'm supposed to do.

 6             But the man kept insisting and he said, Please get away from

 7     here, go to Grbavica - that's where my parent lived - if anything, I'll

 8     call you.  His name was Menso Mirojevic.  He was an employee of the town

 9     SUP.

10        Q.   Let me stop you there.  Did you go to Grbavica?  And how long did

11     you stay there?

12        A.   I spent perhaps ten days at Grbavica.  I had some stomach

13     trouble, but I managed to get my doctor on the phone.  He worked in the

14     polyclinic of the Ministry of the Interior, and I asked him to give me

15     sick-leave to attend to my ulcer.  I was there alone because I had taken

16     my wife and children to a safe place in Hadzici, so I wanted to rejoin

17     them, and I managed to go to Hadzici and stayed there until the 15th of

18     May, when shells began falling, and Hadzici was held by the Serb side.

19     The repair work-shop in Hadzici organised transport for people from

20     Hadzici to Lukavica, which was not being shelled, but I was not allowed

21     onto the bus because by decision of the municipality of -- or the Crisis

22     Staff or the Presidency or whatever, no men were allowed to leave

23     Hadzici.  I tried to explain that I was not a resident of Hadzici, that I

24     worked for the State Security Service, but the man in charge did not

25     accept my explanations and did not let me board the bus.

Page 6537

 1             In the meantime, I found out that an organised group was being

 2     evacuated from Blazuj.  I managed to hitch-hike my way there, and we

 3     boarded a public bus going to Pale.  That was about 40 kilometres

 4     distance, but we took eight hours to get there, from 3.00 p.m. to late at

 5     night.  The road across the air field was like something from an action

 6     movie.  Everyone was lying down on the bus because the Muslim side kept

 7     shooting at those buses, and for the sake of their own safety all the

 8     passengers had to lie down on the floor of the bus while the bus driver

 9     zigzagged, trying to avoid bullets.

10             I got to Pale around 1.00 a.m., and there was Slobo Skipina, Mico

11     Stanisic, Vlasto Kusmuk, and perhaps five or six more of my colleagues.

12     I wasn't really welcome at Pale, I have to say.  Mico Stanisic told me

13     that I have to write a statement as to where I had been until then.  I

14     said that I had not managed to drive my children to Serbia like many

15     other people had, and my children were not safe, and I -- until I got

16     them to a safe place -- until I got them to a safe place, I could not get

17     to Pale.

18             I also said that I was not born into the Ministry of the Interior

19     and I did not have to work there, and my children mattered more to me

20     than anything.  And I thought if you -- I told them, If you need me, you

21     know where to find me.

22             After a couple of days, they did come for me, and that took me to

23     Pale, that was the 15th of May, 1992.

24        Q.   Where in Pale did you meet with Mr. Stanisic, Mr. Skipina,

25     Mr. Kusmuk, and those others?

Page 6538

 1        A.   We met up at Kalovita Brda, the Kalovita hills in the scout's

 2     lodge.  It was a building that was later used by the MUP because we did

 3     not have many available premises.  That's where they met by day.  And

 4     everyone spent the night where they could.  Some people in -- took turns

 5     sleeping in some rooms that were available.  Other people knew someone

 6     there.

 7        Q.   At the time were there any communications facilities or equipment

 8     in that building, if you know?

 9        A.   No, there was nothing there.  In that statement that I gave

10     during proofing, I already said that we had set off from a clearing.  We

11     had only one telephone, and I also said, by way of illustration, that

12     President Karadzic was using a car that couldn't be locked, and when he

13     wanted to go and make a phone call, he to go to the military post office

14     at Korana.  We did not have radio stations, we did not have uniforms, or

15     cars, or accommodation, or anything else.  We did not have the basic

16     amenities we needed to work.

17        Q.   When you say that, are you referring to the State Security

18     Service or the entire MUP?

19        A.   I always talk about the State Security Service, but I don't

20     believe it was any better at the Ministry of the Interior.  Meaning the

21     public security sector.

22        Q.   Let me show a document.  We'll put this up on the computer screen

23     for you.  It is 65 ter 2396.

24             MR. HANNIS:  And if it is possible, can we have the B/C/S and the

25     English side by side?

Page 6539

 1        Q.   Can you see that, sir?  If we have the first ten name, we'll be

 2     fine.

 3        A.   It wouldn't be possible to make it larger, would it?

 4        Q.   I have a hard copy that maybe the usher can hand you, if that's

 5     easier for you.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             MR. HANNIS:

 8        Q.   It is entitled:  Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina,

 9     Ministry of Interior, Sarajevo National Security Service, list of

10     employees working who were paid an advance under salaries for the month

11     of May.

12             And my English translation indicates number 7 is your name.  Is

13     that right?

14        A.   That's correct.

15        Q.   But I see in the second column where there appears to be a salary

16     figure, 65.000, yours is scratched out.  Did you not get paid anything in

17     May?  Or do you remember?

18        A.   Well, first of all, I don't remember.  And even if I had received

19     it, it was a very small amount.  I don't know anymore how much it was

20     worth, actually.  As chief of the administration for the security of

21     persons and facilities, I started working on the 1st of May, 1992.

22     That's when the letters of appointment were written or perhaps even

23     earlier.  But, to be frank, I don't remember.

24             I see the name of Goran Krunic is also stricken but he was there.

25     I don't know why his name is crossed out.

Page 6540

 1        Q.   You say that you began working as chief of the administration for

 2     security of persons and facilities on the 1st of May.  That was the date

 3     of your appointment?

 4        A.   I received a letter of appointment dated the 1st of May.

 5        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... you were still in Hadzici,

 6     though, weren't you?

 7        A.   Yes, yes.  I left Hadzici on the 15th of May.  But my letter of

 8     appointment is as of the 1st of May.  I gave you that letter of

 9     appointment.

10        Q.   You gave it to me?

11        A.   I don't have it with me, but I did give it to the investigator,

12     Mr. Paul O'Grady.

13        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

14        A.   I gave him the letter of appointment for the chief and Deputy

15     Chief of the 5th Administration, and I gave him also the document --

16        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

17        A.    -- certifying the termination of my employment.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19        A.   And the new rules on the staffing, that was the document under

20     which I was appointed as of the 1st of May to that post.

21        Q.   While you were in Hadzici before you went to Pale, had you been

22     in any communication with anybody in -- in the Serbian MUP by telephone

23     or some other means?  I mean, how did they know where you were and what

24     you were doing?

25        A.   No, they didn't know where I was.  Only Dragan Kijac called me up

Page 6541

 1     once and said, Stjeko [phoen], watch out for your own life.

 2             That's all he said.

 3        Q.   That's while you were in Hadzici?

 4        A.   Well, either while I was in Grbavica or in Hadzici, but he was

 5     the only one who called me.  He said, Save your skin, and watch out, and

 6     whenever you can get out.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Do you recognise the other names on this list as

 8     people who were employed by the National Security Service?

 9        A.   Slobodan Skipina was under-secretary for this National Security

10     Service.  But he wasn't there long.  Dragan Kijac replaced him soon

11     afterwards.  Goran Radovic was there before the war.  Novak Blagojevic

12     was an inspector in the Ministry of the Interior at the administration.

13     Todor Cicovic worked there before the war.  He was chief of that

14     detachment, I said.  Number 7 is me.  Dragan Kijac was there from before

15     the war --

16        Q.   Let me stop you there.  Is there any significance to the order in

17     which these names are listed?  I see number one is Mr. Skipina, and it

18     appears that he got the biggest salary, if 75.000 is his salary.

19             Can you detect any pattern from how the names are listed?

20     Doesn't appear to be in alphabetical order.

21             If you don't know, you don't know.

22        A.   I don't know.  I assume that their order must have been that of

23     the roles they played.  Skipina was chief, Radovic and Vlaski were

24     assistants, but I don't know who Novak Blagojevic was, under 5.

25        Q.   And what about Kijac?  At the time, what was his job?  He is

Page 6542

 1     number 8, right after you.

 2        A.   Dragan Kijac was a prominent operative of the state security

 3     centre in Sarajevo.  As the SDA came at the head of the MUP, Dragan Kijac

 4     was transferred to the post of an officer in charge of foreigners at the

 5     Banja Luka centre.  After roughly a year there, he came back and became

 6     the secretary of the city of Sarajevo MUP.  However, the post of the

 7     secretary of the town SUP was nothing really.  It only had under it the

 8     traffic department, passports, duty service, and little else.

 9             MR. HANNIS:  If we could see the last page on the B/C/S on the

10     screen.

11        Q.   And if you could look at the back of the hard copy, witness.

12     There's a signature on -- on the last page.  The back side, I think.

13        A.   The signature is that of Slobodan Skipina.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honours, I'd like to tender 2396.

16             MR. ZECEVIC:  No objection, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE HALL:  How is this relevant, Mr. Hannis?

18             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honour, it identifies participants and gives us

19     some indication of the positions they held in May 1992.  It will link up

20     with other evidence in this case.  We think it is important to establish

21     who the managers are within the MUP at the time that these crimes are

22     committed.

23             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

25     Exhibit P983.  Thank you.

Page 6543

 1             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you.

 2        Q.   Now, sir, after you had gone to Pale in mid-May and you are in

 3     the position of -- I guess, what's the correct title?  Are you head of

 4     the 5th Administration?  What was your title?

 5        A.   Head or chief of the administration for the security of certain

 6     individuals and facilities.

 7        Q.   Okay.  And your duties were what?  To provide protection for

 8     high-ranking individuals?

 9        A.   The administration for the security of persons and facilities had

10     to deal with the provision of security for certain office holders in the

11     state and facilities that were important for Defence purposes.

12             Here I'm primarily referring to the Speaker of the parliament,

13     prime minister, and minister of the interior, and as for facilities they

14     included Assembly or parliament facilities, Presidency facilities and

15     government facilities as well as other facilities of importance for the

16     defence of the country.

17             When I assumed the position, I was governed by the prewar

18     instructions or, rather, I tried to update the prewar instructions to the

19     conditions under which we were working at the time.  Therefore, I

20     produced a new set of instructions on the scope of security provided to

21     individuals and facilities, and the instructions were signed by the then

22     minister of the interior, Mico Stanisic.  The instructions dealt with in

23     detail with operative measures, technical, sanitary, and hygienic

24     measures, as well as other forms of security to be provided.  These

25     measures were applied in such a manner as to provide full security for

Page 6544

 1     individuals and facilities.  The designated individuals were protected by

 2     officers.  There were also members of public security who mostly dealt

 3     with the physical securing of facilities and residences of the

 4     individuals who were protected.  We also had scenarios for the protection

 5     of more important meetings like sessions of the parliament and

 6     government.  Security escorts for travels of individuals, the security of

 7     workplaces, residences, and other premises used by the individuals who

 8     were under protection.

 9        Q.   Thank you, sir.  I have next a question I want to ask you based

10     on something in Exhibit P625.

11             This is not a document you have seen before, I believe.  It is

12     the 1992 MUP draft report on the work in the period of April to December.

13             MR. HANNIS:  I need page 11 of the English and page 15 in the

14     B/C/S.

15        Q.   And this is a part of the annual report, the draft annual report

16     that is talking about the SNB, the National Security Service.  And I just

17     want to read you a sentence and ask you a question about it.

18             I think it's the third paragraph on your B/C/S page.

19             And my English translation reads:

20             "In accordance with its obligations the SNB has organised and

21     taken measures to protect individuals, assigned protection by the

22     relevant decisions and the facilities they use."

23             Where it talks about "relevant decisions concerning protection of

24     individuals," what were those, who made those decisions about who got

25     protection, if you know?

Page 6545

 1        A.   It was always the Council for the Constitutional -- Protection of

 2     the Constitutional Order or in this case it was the Council for National

 3     Security within the parliament which took these decisions.

 4             The point is not whether Mr. So-and-so would be protected.

 5     Rather, it is the function that the person performed that was being

 6     protected.  The Council for the Protection of the Constitutional Order

 7     would take a decision that the role of the president, of the Presidency,

 8     or the speaker of the parliament, the prime minister, minister of the

 9     interior would be protected as well as that of other incumbents in

10     respect of whom an assessment was made that they would come under

11     certain -- that would be at risk in a certain situation.

12             In addition to the facilities mentioned here, there were other

13     facilities important for the defence of the country.  For instance, the

14     power supply facilities, power supply company facilities, et cetera.

15        Q.   Let me interject now.  I just want to focus on individual

16     persons.

17             You said a decision came from the Council for the Protection of

18     the Constitutional Order.  Was that a body in the -- in the new Serbian

19     Republic of Bosnia, what later became the Republika Srpska, or are you

20     talking about pre-war?

21        A.   It existed before the war too.  Presumably, the entire system of

22     security of individuals and facilities was in place before I came to

23     Pale.  So I know that -- this was the case before the war, and I suppose

24     it was the case when I came to Pale.

25             Now, whether there was anything in writing from the Council for

Page 6546

 1     the Protection of the Constitutional Order, I don't know about that.  But

 2     I know that the Ministry of the Interior took such decisions on the basis

 3     of documents which were used before the war.

 4             The decision on the provision of security was something that the

 5     President of the state, the Speaker of the parliament, the prime minister

 6     would be informed of, in addition to the minister of the interior.

 7        Q.   So in the new -- in the new RS or Republika Srpska, who took the

 8     decision that the Presidency members, Mr. Karadzic, Mr. Koljevic,

 9     Mrs. Plavsic, the Speaker of the Assembly Mr. Krajisnik, and the prime

10     minister who for a while was Mr. Djeric [phoen], who took that decision,

11     what person took that decision in the RS, if you know?

12        A.   I don't know who took this decision.  I repeat:  Before the war,

13     all the functions that were mentioned here --

14        Q.   Thank you.  And your -- your unit, you and your men, at this time

15     did you wear civilian clothes or camouflage?

16             MR. HANNIS:  I'm sorry, I see Mr. Zecevic --

17             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry, but the witness was cut halfway through

18     or actually he gave the answer but it was not -- it was not recorded.

19             MR. HANNIS:  I see recorded, I don't know who took this decision.

20     That's the answer, and he says, I repeat.  He doesn't need to repeat.

21             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yeah, before the war all the functions that were

22     mentioned here were protected.  That's what he said --

23             I was trying to be helpful to you.  I don't really ...

24             MR. HANNIS:  Thanks.

25        Q.   Who all did you in your unit protect in terms of -- if you can

Page 6547

 1     name the persons for me, all of the positions:  The Presidency, the

 2     president of the National Assembly, and the prime minister?  Anybody

 3     else?  Minister of defence, minister of the justice, minister of

 4     interior, any of these lower-level cabinet --

 5        A.   No, no, no.

 6        Q.   Okay.

 7        A.   Neither the minister of the justice nor the minister of defence.

 8     They were not among the protected individuals.  The individuals who were

 9     protected were the President of the state, Speaker of the Assembly,

10     vice-presidents, prime minister, and minister of the interior.  And,

11     where necessary, the minister of defence was also provided security but

12     he normally received it from his own members.

13             The minister of the interior never provided security for the

14     minister of defence.

15        Q.   Did you personally or anybody in your 5th Administration provide

16     protection to Minister Stanisic in 1992?

17        A.   The administration for security of individuals and facilities did

18     not provide security for the minister of the interior.  Why?  Well,

19     because he was always on the payroll of the security service.  I don't

20     know how to explain -- always on the payroll of public security, so he

21     always received his salary from the Public Security Service, and it was

22     always the public security employees who provided security for the

23     minister of the interior.  Just as was the case before the war --

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Can the witness please repeat slowly what he

25     just said.

Page 6548

 1             MR. HANNIS:

 2        Q.   The interpreters ask if you could repeat slowly what you just

 3     said.

 4        A.   Even before the war, the minister of the interior, including the

 5     minister of the interior during the war was on the payroll of the Public

 6     Security Service.  So, I said, that by way of an example before the war,

 7     the minister of the interior of Bosnia-Herzegovina received his salary

 8     from the Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and the under-secretary for

 9     state security received his salary from the Government of the

10     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

11        Q.   And in 1992, did Mico Stanisic have any personal security, either

12     an individual or a detail, that you know of?

13        A.   As of the 15th of May when I came to Pale, Mico Stanisic had his

14     personal security provided by individuals who were members of the Public

15     Security Service.  In other words, the members of my administration did

16     not provide security to Mico Stanisic.  He was provided that service by

17     members of the Public Security Service.

18        Q.   And do you know what specific unit or individuals provided that

19     service?  Were they from a particular administration or particular group?

20        A.   They were members of the Public Security Service.  The only thing

21     I know is that Zoran Jasarevic was Mico Stanisic's driver.  He lived at

22     Pale.  There were other members of the Public Security Service who were

23     his escort, but I don't know his name.  I noticed among the security

24     detail for Mico Stanisic a fellow who was rather imposing in his figure.

25     I knew his father.  What was his family name?  I knew that soon

Page 6549

 1     thereafter he was killed, but I don't know which year that was.  I think

 2     his last name was Malovic.  And I believe that those who knew Minister

 3     better than I did, said that he used to be a member of the Yugoslav Army

 4     but that he had left the army.  I don't know where he served.  Perhaps in

 5     Croatia or Slovenia.  And that he was later transferred to the security

 6     detail for Minister Stanisic.

 7        Q.   Okay.

 8             MR. HANNIS:  Could we have Exhibit 65 ter 2686 on the screen,

 9     please.

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters would kindly ask Mr. Hannis to

11     make pauses between question and response by the witness.  Thank you very

12     much.

13             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you.

14        Q.   Witness, you see this document which purports to be a salary list

15     for the Special Platoon Sokolac in October 1992.  The first name is Dusko

16     Malovic.  Is that the person you were telling us about?

17        A.   I presume so.  But under 26, you have another Malovic.  Though it

18     must be the one under number 1, Dusko Malovic.

19        Q.   And how did you come to know who Dusko Malovic was in -- in 1992?

20     Can you tell us when and where you first saw him?

21        A.   I think that I saw him first outside the Assembly or the

22     Presidency, because he was quite a striking figure.  He was of --

23     well-built physique, and I asked around about that fellow who was

24     accompanying minister and they told me that it was Malovic from Sokolac

25     who used to be a member of the army.  I don't know if he was in Croatia

Page 6550

 1     and then left the army at which point he joined the security detail for

 2     Mr. Stanisic.  Perhaps they knew each other from before the war.  Perhaps

 3     they were good mates, I don't know.

 4        Q.   And this first time you saw him outside the Presidency or the

 5     Assembly, was that in Pale?

 6        A.   Yes, yes.  It was at Pale in the building at Kalovita hills.  I

 7     saw him two, three, or four times, at the most.

 8        Q.   And all of those times were in Pale, in 1992?

 9        A.   Yes, at Pale.  He probably accompanied the minister across

10     Republika Srpska.  I only had occasion to see him at Pale.

11        Q.   Okay.  And in Pale, did you see him with the minister?

12        A.   Yes, with the minister.

13        Q.   And how --

14        A.   In other words, he would accompany the minister, and then the

15     minister would go into to see either the Speaker of the parliament or the

16     President or one of the ministers, and he would be -- he would always

17     stay behind with the driver, waiting for the minister to finish his

18     business.

19        Q.   Well, how was -- how was he dressed and equipped?

20        A.   It depended.  Sometimes he would be wearing civilian clothes,

21     other times a camouflage uniform.  It depended on where they were

22     supposed to go.

23        Q.   His camouflage uniform, you notice anything particular about it?

24        A.   I didn't observe anything particular about it.  Of course, the

25     first sets of camouflage uniforms that arrived were the ones worn by

Page 6551

 1     ministers and the personnel around them, and we all envied them, because

 2     we didn't have any.

 3        Q.   Was it standard issue, or was it of higher quality than the

 4     average, if you know?

 5        A.   I don't know.  It was the first time we saw camouflage uniforms

 6     to begin with.  They had not previously existed and were not in use by

 7     our army.

 8        Q.   Prior to the 15th of the May?  Is that what you're saying, there

 9     were no camouflage uniforms on the Serb side?

10        A.   Yes, yes.  There were no camouflage uniforms.  And when I'm

11     saying our army, I meant the Yugoslav People's Army which had the solid

12     colour olive-grey uniforms.

13        Q.   I would like to show you Exhibit P29 now.

14             MR. HANNIS:  And could I have this 2686 marked for

15     identification.

16             JUDGE HALL:  So marked.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

18     Exhibit Number P984, marked for identification.  Thank you.

19             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you.

20        Q.   This is a -- I'm sorry.

21             This is a copy of a news article --

22             JUDGE HALL:  Sorry, Mr. Hannis, before you go on, this is

23     being -- you asked this to be marked for identification pending ...

24     pending what?

25             MR. HANNIS:  Well, I don't know that this witness can verify the

Page 6552

 1     authenticity of this document.  I may need somebody from finance or

 2     somebody who signed the document.  I -- if there's no objection I will

 3     tender it now.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  And I suppose the relevance of this is the same as

 5     your answer was to my previous question?

 6             MR. HANNIS:  Yes.  And, in particular, I'm going to show that

 7     Dusko Malovic was employed by the MUP.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

 9             MR. HANNIS:

10        Q.   Sir, you see the photograph?

11             Could we enlarge?  And perhaps you can read the caption under the

12     photograph for us.

13             Can you read that, sir?

14        A.   I can.

15        Q.   Would you read it out loud for us, please.

16        A.   "Members of the service of Serb ethnicity were invited to join

17     the Serbian MUP as early as today.  Delimustafic called on the need for

18     unity.  Those who leave will be dismissed.  April Fool's reality."

19        Q.   The small print under the photograph, are you able to read that?

20        A.   "EPA published this photograph yesterday.  The advisor of the MUP

21     of BH Mico Stanisic in the role of the minister of the MUP of the Serbian

22     Republic of BH is reviewing members of the Serbian MUP at Sokolac."

23        Q.   I know this photograph is not the best quality.  Can you tell if

24     those men are wearing camouflage uniforms?

25        A.   I suppose they are wearing them, although you can't really tell

Page 6553

 1     from the photograph.  Can I add something?  The April Fool's reality, do

 2     you think anybody was really worried by what Delimustafic stated --

 3        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... I'm just asking about the

 4     photograph for now.  Maybe Defence counsel will have a question about

 5     that.

 6             Do you see anybody else that you recognise in the photograph,

 7     other than Mico Stanisic, whom I think we can all recognise?

 8        A.   I know very well Mico Stanisic.  And the fellow that Mico

 9     Stanisic is shaking hands with and might be Dusko Malovic, because, as I

10     can see in the photograph, it is a rather imposing figure.  I'm not sure,

11     but it is possible.

12        Q.   Okay.  Thank you for that.

13             I want to ask you now about 1992.  You told us, I think, when you

14     first started out in -- in Pale that Mr. Skipina was your boss in the

15     SNB?

16        A.   Yes, that's right.  Skipina was the person with the most

17     extensive experience compared to the others on the list that you gave me.

18     He was the chief of national security, later on, to become the chief of

19     public security, and was retired before the war.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Let's have a look at Exhibit P823, if we may.

21             And your next boss after Skipina in 1992 was who?

22        A.   After Skipina, Dragan Kijac became the head of the administration

23     for national security.

24        Q.   Okay.  I know the B/C/S copy is maybe hard to read on screen.

25     Are you able to read it?  I know have you looked at it before.

Page 6554

 1             I can give you a hard copy, if that might be easier.

 2        A.   A hard copy might be better.  I received a copy of this at

 3     Herceg-Novi when I was giving my statement in June.

 4        Q.   We see in my English translation that it is dated the 13th of

 5     August and it appears to be from Dragan Kijac with a signature and a

 6     stamp informing that on the 6th of August, Dragan Kijac was appointed SNB

 7     under-secretary thereby replacing former SNB under-secretary Slobodan

 8     Skipina.

 9             Have I two questions for you:  Is it unusual for the person who

10     is being appointed to send out the notification that he is being

11     appointed and replacing someone?

12        A.   Yes, yes, I said that back in Herceg-Novi.

13             There's something illogical about this.  Wouldn't it have been

14     more logical for the minister of the interior to have written an order or

15     a dispatch informing all security services centres both public and state

16     security, that this is an appointment of Dragan Kijac for the chief of

17     the CSB.  This way it looks like Dragan Kijac informs himself that from

18     this day on, he is the secretary -- the under-secretary for state

19     security.  And he signs it.

20        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... thank you.  I have a

21     question about the second paragraph which says:

22             "In accordance with the conclusions of the SNB specialist staff

23     no appointments to the Service" --

24        A.   "Of the professional collegium."

25        Q.   "No appointments to the Service shall be possible in future

Page 6555

 1     without their approval."

 2             Do you know who the members of that specialist collegium in the

 3     SNB were, either by name or by position?

 4        A.   Members of the professional collegium are, as a rule the under-

 5     secretary for state security, his deputies, assistants, and chiefs of

 6     administration.  That's the narrow composition, and the broader includes

 7     the under-secretary for state security, his deputy and assistant.  In

 8     fact, the collegium of the State Security Service consists of all chiefs

 9     of sectors of state security and all centres in Republika Srpska.

10        Q.   Does the minister of the interior, Mr. Stanisic, have the power

11     to override or veto decisions of the specialist collegium concerning

12     appointments, if you know.

13        A.   I don't know the answer to that.  I suppose that for every

14     important post in the Ministry of the Interior, the minister must be

15     informed.  Or at least must be consulted.

16        Q.   Okay.  You don't think the minister would have the final word?

17     Do you think the specialist board could appoint somebody that the

18     minister did not approve of?

19        A.   Well, the minister always has the last word.  But it make a big

20     difference who the minister is.  If the minister is someone who has --

21     who is not a career minister -- a career professional, it's quite

22     different.  I had quite embarrassing experiences with ministers who

23     occupy the position without knowing anything about professional matters.

24     I'm consulting him about a professional matter and he is talking on the

25     phone about some logs that need to be transported from one end of the

Page 6556

 1     country to another.

 2        Q.   I had understood you to say in an earlier interview that you

 3     believe the minister would be the one with the final word about any

 4     appointments; is that not correct?

 5        A.   Generally speaking, the minister always has the final word.  The

 6     under-secretary for state security is duty-bound to inform the minister

 7     about any steps and measures he plans to take.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Next I'd like to show you Exhibit 65 ter 3367.

 9             Witness, this is a document that you were shown during your

10     interview in June 2009.  It's a very lengthy document.  I don't propose

11     to show you the whole thing.

12             Just from that cover page do you remember this document that

13     Investigator Grady showed you?

14        A.   Yes, I know, I remember the document.

15             This was the duty service log-book in the Kikinda building I

16     recognise the signature of Cicovac.

17        Q.   It's fair to say there appears to be handwriting of several

18     different persons in this log-book, correct?

19        A.   Yes, there are several different persons depending on who was on

20     duty at the time or who took the call and took down the message.

21        Q.   But based on content and the writing of Mr. Cicovac that you

22     recognised, you -- you came to opine that this was a duty log for the

23     Kikinda building in 1992 and 1992?  Or part of 1992?

24        A.   Yes, yes.

25        Q.   And what was housed in Kikinda in 1992?

Page 6557

 1        A.   At the beginning of 1992, Dr. Karadzic was accommodated in

 2     Kikinda, the President of the Assembly, and some of the ministers.  After

 3     the building at Kalovita Brda was renovated, Dr. Karadzic and Momcilo

 4     Krajisnik, as Speaker of the Assembly, moved there, and perhaps a year

 5     later, the office of the President of the republic was housed in the

 6     Famos building in Koran.  That's perhaps a kilometre away from the centre

 7     of Pale.  The special purpose industry was located there.

 8        Q.   And do you remember approximately when Karadzic moved out of

 9     Kikinda?

10        A.   I think it was towards the end of 1992 or perhaps the beginning

11     of 1993.

12        Q.   Thank you.  And I don't think we made it clear.  Kikinda was a

13     hotel in Pale before the war?

14        A.   No, Kikinda, was a prefab building of -- of a construction

15     company from Serbia, the town of Kikinda, and that's why we named it

16     Kikinda, after that enterprise.  It was a building -- in fact, a

17     recreational facility for the personnel of this Serbian company.

18        Q.   [Microphone not activated].

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

20             MR. HANNIS:

21        Q.   A couple of other buildings in Pale I want to ask you about.

22     Hotel, well, Panorama?

23        A.   Panorama was, indeed, a hotel.  I mean, what do you call a hotel?

24             It was a very poor category of a hotel, but ... the last

25     category.

Page 6558

 1        Q.   And who stayed in the Panorama Hotel between May and

 2     December 1992?

 3        A.   The Speaker of the Assembly was accommodated there.  Some

 4     employees of a number of ministries.  I think some of the ministers even

 5     for a while.  But for a very short while, because, in 1992, the

 6     government was moved to the Bistrica Hotel at Pale.  I know that by the

 7     time winter set on, they were in Bistrica Hotel.

 8        Q.   And in Kosuta hotel?

 9        A.   Kosuta was a hotel owned by a very large conglomerate called

10     Energoinvest based in Sarajevo, and I think they built the hotel.  Or

11     maybe not.  Because next to that hotel were apartments, suites for

12     employees of Energoinvest.  The whole complex was built for the Winter

13     Olympic games in Sarajevo in 1984.

14        Q.   And what persons or organisations were housed in that hotel in

15     May to December of 1992, if you know?

16        A.   Sorry, I didn't hear?  You mean Kosuta hotel?

17        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... Yes.

18        A.   I think the special detachment of the police of the MUP was based

19     there.

20        Q.   Thank you.  In connection with your work as chief of security for

21     persons and facilities, did you co-ordinate with anyone on the public

22     security side regarding security of buildings; and, if so, who was that?

23        A.   Well, we had to co-operate on a daily basis.  I already told you

24     that this --

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat.

Page 6559

 1             MR. HANNIS:  I'm sorry, the interpreter is asking for you to

 2     repeat.  So I wanted to stop you before you got too far.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We had to co-operate with the

 4     public security sector on a daily basis, both with the police stations

 5     which covered the territory where the buildings were, in this case, the

 6     police station in Pale and the company for OBL which was in charge of

 7     physical security of buildings and apartments of VIPs.  The police

 8     station was in charge of patrolling routes, and OBL was in charge of

 9     traditional physical security of buildings and apartments housing VIPs,

10     buildings that were venues of important events such as sessions of the

11     Assembly, the government, the Presidency, et cetera.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Concerning security of the buildings, for example, in

13     Hotel Bistrica where the government was for a period in 1992, was there

14     any rule or prohibition against carrying weapons into the Hotel Bistrica?

15        A.   At the beginning there was no such ban, but, later, when we

16     acquired some equipment such as metal-detecting doors and some

17     anti-sabotage equipment for the post office, everyone had to deposit

18     their weapons in specially designated lockers or other places.  Nobody

19     could go in and attend the sessions armed, apart from one or two guards

20     who were inside the hall.

21             Everyone was accredited and went offering their letters of

22     accreditation.  They would have to deposit their weapons until they left

23     the building.

24        Q.   When you said that changed later on, can you tell us

25     approximately what month did it change that weapons could no longer be

Page 6560

 1     brought in?

 2        A.   As soon as we acquired these metal-detector doors, after the

 3     first two or three months, that was for the building of the Presidency

 4     first, and then, also, for the office of Radovan Karadzic, in that Famos

 5     building.

 6        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... talking about in Bistrica?

 7        A.   In Bistrica, you could go in with a weapon.  The government was

 8     housed there, as well as some of the ministers, including the prime

 9     minister.  Some ministers were not housed in Bistrica but in some other

10     locations, but in Bistrica, yes, you could walk -- walk in armed because

11     there was no one but members of the government there, just the ministers

12     and the personnel who serviced them.

13        Q.   Thank you.  The last thing, Your Honours, I would like to tender

14     65 ter 3367.  That was the log-book -- well, I don't want to tender it at

15     this point.  I guess I need to mark it MFI.

16             JUDGE HALL:  That was a lengthy document [Overlapping

17     speakers] ...

18             MR. HANNIS:  Yes, that's a lengthy document.  The witness

19     indicated it appeared to be the duty-log book at Kikinda.

20             JUDGE HALL:  You propose to tender that as an exhibit at some

21     future point?

22             MR. HANNIS:  Yes, pending connecting it up with certain persons

23     and showing some relevance.

24             JUDGE HALL:  Marked for identification.

25             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you.  I have no further questions for the

Page 6561

 1     witness at this time.  Thank you, sir.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

 4     Exhibit Number P985.  Thank you.  Marked for identification, sorry.

 5             JUDGE HALL:  [Microphone not activated] This is coincidently the

 6     time that we would take the break, so we resume in 20 minutes.

 7                           [The witness stands down]

 8                           --- Recess taken at 5.21 p.m.

 9                           --- On resuming at 5.47 p.m.

10                           [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

11             JUDGE HALL:  While the witness is on his way in, it would be

12     convenient to -- to give this oral ruling on this other question.

13             And that is on -- it goes as follows:  On the 29th of January,

14     the Trial Chamber granted the addition of ST-216 to the Prosecution's

15     Rule 65 ter witness list.  The Chamber also ordered the Prosecution to

16     make submissions regarding whether it would seek to call the witness viva

17     voce or pursuant to Rule 92 ter and on the time it would need for each

18     mode of testimony.

19             On the 3rd of February, the Prosecution filed further

20     submissions.  The Prosecution states that it will call ST-216 viva voce

21     and request the Chamber to allow three hours for the

22     examination-in-chief, thus extending by three hours the time allotted for

23     the presentation of the Prosecution's evidence in-chief.

24             The Trial Chamber grants the request to call the witness viva

25     voce.  However, it notes that the Prosecution has not identified in its

Page 6562

 1     further submissions any new matters on which the witness would testify

 2     which would justify the three hours requested.  The Chamber, therefore,

 3     grants the Prosecution two hours for the examination-in-chief of ST-216.

 4             The time allotted to the Prosecution's evidence in-chief is,

 5     therefore, extended to 216 hours.  Any further time that the Prosecution

 6     wishes to use in presenting the evidence of ST-216 is to be found within

 7     the 216 hours.

 8                           [The witness takes the stand]

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Mr. Zecevic, you may begin your

10     cross-examination.

11             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you very much, Your Honours.

12                           Cross-examination by Mr. Zecevic:

13        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Scekic.

14             If I understood correctly, I think you were employed in the State

15     Security Service from 1979, the State Security Service of the MUP of the

16     Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

17        A.   Correct.

18        Q.   After these multi-party elections in 1991 and the personnel

19     changes that happened in the MUP of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and

20     Herzegovina in 1991 and beginning 1992, there occurred an extreme

21     marginalisation of Serb staff in the MUP in general, but especially in

22     the State Security Service; is that right?

23        A.   Precisely.  A certain Hilmo Selimovic became chief of personnel

24     and he came from the brewery, the beer factory, and he served about 300

25     new letters of appointment, and he changed the secretary for state

Page 6563

 1     security.

 2        Q.   We really have to make pauses between question and answer to

 3     enable interpretation.

 4             When you say Hilmo Selimovic came -- became chief of personnel in

 5     the MUP, in the State Security Service, and he handed out three new --

 6     300 new letters of appointment in one day, you mean decisions on

 7     employment?

 8        A.   Yes, on employment, new employment, and also replacements,

 9     demotions.  He demoted mainly Serb staff, and perhaps a few of his fellow

10     Muslims, but mainly Serbs.

11        Q.   Similarly, all these new decisions on new hiring were in favour

12     of Muslims.

13        A.   Yes.  A great number of people whom we had never laid eyes on

14     before came to work with us.  I'm only talking about the place where I

15     worked, but I believe in other sectors it was not much different.

16        Q.   Sredoje Novic, whom you mentioned a moment ago, who by decision

17     of this same Selimovic was demoted to one of the lowest positions, had

18     been under-secretary for state security of Bosnia-Herzegovina until then,

19     correct?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   So from the highest ladder in the hierarchy he was demoted to the

22     lowest one, although, at that moment, he already had in his hands a

23     letter of appointment transferring him to the federal SUP in Belgrade;

24     isn't that right?

25        A.   Yes, precisely.  He was to become federal under-secretary for

Page 6564

 1     state security.

 2        Q.   Sredoje Novic was a Serb, wasn't he?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Mr. Sredoje Novic is currently minister in the government of

 5     Bosnia and Herzegovina.

 6        A.   Yes, for civil affairs in the ministerial council of the

 7     Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Before that he was minister of the

 8     interior of Republika Srpska.

 9        Q.   When you said, "Federation," it must have been a slip.  You meant

10     the whole of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

11        A.   Yes, yes.

12        Q.   One of the key positions in the State Security Service was then

13     occupied by Munir Alibabic?

14        A.   Yes.  He became chief of sector of the state security.  It was

15     the highest-ranking sector in the Republic, and everything was charted

16     from that base, from the base in Sarajevo.

17        Q.   When you say "charted," you mean various operations of the State

18     Security Service.  Is that what you meant?

19        A.   Yes, I meant that, and I meant also the media harangue against

20     us, who were not part of his ethnic community.  Munir Alibabic was a

21     great professional, very good in his trade, and if I have time, I will

22     also say something about the then-president of the Presidency, Alija

23     Izetbegovic that concerns Munir Alibabic.

24        Q.   We've already heard here, but we could repeat it.  You are

25     probably mean the fact that Munir Alibabic, in his time, led the

Page 6565

 1     operation to arrest Alija Izetbegovic.  Is that what you mean, in the

 2     1970s?

 3        A.   Yes, he was the main person responsible in the service for that

 4     operation.  Alija Izetbegovic was put on trial in 1983, and he was

 5     sentenced to 13 or 16 years in prison because of his Islamic declaration.

 6        Q.   And when Munir Alibabic was made chief it was a great surprise to

 7     all of you, wasn't it?

 8        A.   It certainly was.  Because while Alija Izetbegovic was in prison,

 9     Munir Alibabic became his close collaborator, and I believe those ties

10     were formed then and that's why he made him chief of -- of state security

11     but at the same time, we couldn't understand what was going on like we

12     didn't understand many other things.

13        Q.   A moment ago you mentioned the media harangue.  It is your

14     opinion that Munir Alibabic was behind the media harangue, as you put it,

15     in Bosnia-Herzegovina, where he demonised or placed false -- planted

16     false information in relation to the Serb people in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

17        A.   Yes.  That's how I experienced it first-hand.

18        Q.   When you say "the media," I suppose you mean that Munir Alibabic,

19     from the post that he held of the chief of state security, he wielded

20     great influence over the media, such as Slobodna Bosna or Oslobodjenje

21     and television?

22        A.   Munir Alibabic had worked for a while for radio and television as

23     an operative.  In line 03 he had connections in the mass media.  You

24     mentioned Slobodna Bosna, and it is quite possible that he had close ties

25     with journalists from Slobodna Bosna.

Page 6566

 1        Q.   When you say that you experienced this first-hand, I think that

 2     it was in early April, around the 7th of April, if I'm not mistaken, that

 3     in some of the daily newspapers, an untrue story was published which

 4     ostracised you personally.  Several days later, another untrue story was

 5     broadcast on TV and again it had to do with you, right?

 6        A.   Yes, this article which was published in Sarajevo

 7     Vecernje entitled:  Death From Roof-tops, and the information broadcast

 8     in the Utro [as interpreted] show both conveyed accounts that you were

 9     untrue.  I issued denials on both occasions.  Nevertheless, I was

10     arrested by the Green Berets, the Muslim paramilitary organisation.

11        Q.   The truth of the matter is that the information that was planted

12     about you was untrue.

13        A.   Yes, that's right.  All of it was a lie.

14        Q.   If I recollect correctly your statement for the Prosecution, your

15     own brother is married to a Muslim and has lived all of his life in

16     Sarajevo and has spent the war in Sarajevo; is that right?

17        A.   Yes.  He was a member of the reserve force of the police in

18     Sarajevo.

19        Q.   Therefore, statements to the effect that you were a Serb or a

20     Montenegrin nationalist were completely baseless; is that right?

21        A.   Yes, precisely.  In the building where my parents live, they had

22     a neighbour who lived upstairs from them, and although she had children

23     at Miljacka she did not want to leave because she wanted to stay close to

24     my parents.  My wife was a physician, an anaesthesiologist, she worked

25     for a hospital, and I've brought this letter along for the sake of the

Page 6567

 1     Prosecution.  This letter was written by him as a thank-you note because

 2     he wanted to indicate how a Serb treated people of other ethnicities.  I

 3     don't know if you're interested, but it would be a good thing to read the

 4     letter aloud.

 5        Q.   Well, no, let me cut this short.  We don't want to complicate

 6     matters further.  You see, we have a procedure in place for such

 7     documents.

 8             If I understand you correctly, the letter was sent by a Muslim

 9     who was hospitalised on the ward where your wife worked, and this was his

10     way of saying thank you for the humane and fair treatment that he

11     received from your wife.

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Can the witness please read slowly and start

13     from the beginning.

14             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]  A moment, please.

15        Q.   Can you please read out his name only.  We don't need the

16     address.  But, please, do it slowly for the transcript.

17        A.   The letter was written by Asim Ajanovic.

18        Q.   Very well.  Thank you.

19             Back in 1979 when you started working, you worked for the sector

20     for defence preparations in the State Security Service in Sarajevo; is

21     that right?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Under defence preparations, what is meant are plans drawn up

24     for -- for a state of war or of an immediate threat of war in accordance

25     with the then-Laws on All People's Defence and civilian protection?

Page 6568

 1        A.   Yes.  Such plans were drafted by and involved at least 2 million

 2     people in the former state.

 3        Q.   When you say "2 million people," you're actually referring to the

 4     fact that every institution and every socio-political community from the

 5     lowest to the highest level had to have such plans in accordance with the

 6     principles of All People's Defence and social protection.  Is that right?

 7        A.   Yes, every socio-political organisation and community had to

 8     produce such plans.

 9        Q.   Go on, please.

10        A.   Yes, such plans were also made by the army and the police.

11     Plans for emergency situations were drafted by the army and police alike.

12     Every school had to have one such plan.  There wasn't a single public

13     institution that didn't have a plan of the sort.  The concept of All

14     People's Defence was to defend one's self from an external aggressor.

15        Q.   Let me take you back to April 1992.

16             It is a fact, is it not, that you went to work and continued

17     going to work at the time when untrue information was published about you

18     on TV and in the press.

19        A.   At the time I no longer went to work.  Following the meeting at

20     Pale when we were told that we should resume our posts, I intended to do

21     precisely that.  However, around the MUP building, I saw individuals who

22     were people with secondary school, who were armed, and they circled

23     around the building, and when I saw them, I didn't want to proceed going

24     to the office.  So I went back home and then what happened next was that

25     there was a gun-shot that went right through my window and then

Page 6569

 1     everything else happened that I already recounted to the investigators.

 2        Q.   If my understanding is correct, based on what you heard at the

 3     meeting, you proceeded to go to your office and work for the MUP of

 4     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  However, the first time you tried to enter the

 5     building, you encounter in front of it, some of your colleagues,

 6     technicians, et cetera, carrying long-barrelled weapons and performing

 7     some sort of a security detail outside of the building; is that right?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Zecevic, it occurs to us that the issue that

11     would have arisen because of the Prosecution's application, that inasmuch

12     as we assume, that in order to deal with this, you would need time to

13     consult with your client, whether it is something that you propose to do

14     in the course of today, which, having regard to the fact that we are in

15     an evening sitting would mean that would you have to do it before the

16     ordinary time that we adjourn at 7.00, or is it something that you

17     propose to do in the morning, in which case we might consider, on your

18     application, a later than usual start, or is it something which, on

19     reflection, no longer causes you a problem?

20             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, I'm grateful to Your Honours for --

21     for this.  I have -- I have consulted with my client during the breaks to

22     a certain extent.  I would definitely appreciate if -- if I could have an

23     additional half an hour to one hour in the morning, so we can start at

24     10.00.  That would be really very good -- very good time for me to be

25     able to consult properly with the client, with all the documents which I

Page 6570

 1     intend to show and all that.

 2             So if it pleases the Court, then the 10.00 in the morning would

 3     go be perfect more me, yes.

 4             JUDGE HARHOFF:  And still finish with this witness by tomorrow?

 5             MR. ZECEVIC:  Oh, by all mean, Your Honours.  I will -- I will

 6     finish with the witness within first hour -- I will leave only probably

 7     this issue for tomorrow so ...

 8             So I might need half an hour, I guess, or 45 minute, maximum.

 9     Maybe even much lesser than that.

10             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  Of course, arrangements would be made

11     for your client to be brought in, the usual time, in the morning.

12             MR. ZECEVIC:  [Microphone not activated] Yes.

13             May I continue, Your Honours?

14             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, please.

15             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you very much.

16        Q.   [Interpretation] Sir, when you mentioned these colleagues of

17     yours who were standing outside the building of the State Security

18     Service where you were working at the time, these colleagues were all

19     Muslims or Croats, right?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And after finding yourself unable to go inside to your office,

22     you went back home and found out that your apartment had been shot at.

23        A.   That's correct.

24        Q.   And that's one of the first bullets fired at a residential

25     building.  Is that what you said?

Page 6571

 1        A.   Yes, I think that's the first bullet fired at an apartment.  I

 2     went in, immediately the telephone rang, foul language used, We will buy

 3     a ticket, send you to Montenegro.  The person hung up.  I tried to

 4     plaster this whole shot, went downstairs, found some Muslim neighbours

 5     standing there, asked them what was going on, and they were saying, The

 6     Chetniks are shooting.  And I said, Why would the Chetniks be shooting at

 7     a Serb apartment?  But they insisted, Yes, they are Chetniks and

 8     Chetniks.  I took the bullet out of my pocket and said, Look, neighbours

 9     and friends, bullets don't choose.  This was fired at my apartment.  And

10     then I took my leave and no longer went back to my apartment until I had

11     that encounter with the TV crew from Yutel.

12        Q.   After this return to your apartment with the TV crew, after the

13     TV crew left, you were arrested by the Green Berets, right?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   We just discussed this meeting at Pale, and you said that in

16     keeping with what you'd heard at that meeting, you went to work.

17     Obviously that meeting took place just before the 7th of April.

18        A.   Well, I can't say with any certainty.  I believe it was in the

19     end of March, early April.  More probably in early April, because of

20     these things that happened to me with the newspaper articles and the TV

21     programme.

22        Q.   In your evidence in-chief, my colleague asked you and correlated

23     you with that meeting referring to the minutes of the meeting in

24     Banja Luka, they showed you that in July when they interviewed you at

25     your residence.  You never attended that meeting in Banja Luka, right?

Page 6572

 1        A.   No, I did not.

 2        Q.   You didn't even know that it was held.

 3        A.   No, I didn't.

 4        Q.   And never before the Prosecution showed you the minutes did you

 5     know that there were minutes, let alone seen them.

 6                           [Defence counsel confer]

 7             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   So you don't know what's written in the minutes of that meeting

 9     from Banja Luka?

10        A.   I saw the minutes for the first time in June, when it was showed

11     to me by the investigators of The Hague Tribunal in Herceg-Novi, when I

12     was giving my statement.

13        Q.   And when they showed you that document, I suppose you told them

14     you had never seen it before.  I suppose the only -- they only asked you

15     to identify some of the persons who attended that meeting in Banja Luka.

16        A.   Yes.  And I knew most of them, because they were my colleagues.

17        Q.   So you don't know any more about it.  You don't know what the

18     conclusions of that meeting were and what was decided?

19        A.   No, I was just shown a list of people who attended.

20        Q.   So you are unable to correlate the meeting in Banja Luka and the

21     meeting that you attended in Pale?

22        A.   I can only guess.  The first time they called me, I went to Pale.

23     That meeting was short.  It was said that the minister of the interior

24     would be Mico Stanisic, that we should all resume our work, that

25     assignments that run counter to the interests of Serbian people cannot be

Page 6573

 1     issued by the chief, et cetera.  That was the end of the meeting.

 2        Q.   Once, when you were talking about this, you said that Dragan

 3     Kijac, your colleague from the State Security Service, chaired that

 4     meeting, that the meeting related to the area of the CSB Sarajevo.  That

 5     is to say, all the 20 municipalities, right?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And, at that meeting - and this is on page 30, lines 19 and 20 -

 8     Dragan Kijac introduced Mico Stanisic as the new minister of the interior

 9     of Republika Srpska, right?

10        A.   Yes.

11             MR. HANNIS:  Observation, that misstates his evidence.

12             MR. ZECEVIC:  No, no, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, Mr. Hannis.

13             MR. HANNIS:  No, his evidence was he going to be the minister.

14             MR. ZECEVIC:  No, no, no.

15             MR. HANNIS:  Can I have a citation of the page.

16             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Hannis, can I hear the objection, first of all?

17             MR. HANNIS:  My objection is that misstates the evidence.  I need

18     to make a page reference to the prior transcript what he's reading from.

19             MR. ZECEVIC:  That is exactly why I made the page reference.

20     It's page 30, lines 19 and 20 of today's transcript.  19 and 20.

21             MR. HANNIS:  And is that the only reference?

22             MR. ZECEVIC:  No, no, no.

23             MR. HANNIS:  Okay.

24             MR. ZECEVIC:  Mico Stanisic was introduced to us as the minister

25     of the interior of Republika Srpska.  That is why I gave the reference

Page 6574

 1     and the witness confirmed.  And let me please continue my

 2     cross-examination.

 3             If I may, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, please.

 5             MR. ZECEVIC:

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Hannis is right, after that, on page 33,

 7     line 15, you stated: "The future minister."  He was introduced as the

 8     future minister.

 9             So you allow the possibility that you do not remember precisely

10     how he was introduced, whether he was the minister as of that moment, or

11     the minister to be.

12        A.   Well, really, it was almost 20 years ago.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Thank you.

14             A moment ago, towards the end of your evidence in-chief, you

15     talked about the introduction of these metal-detector doors in Pale at

16     Mount Jahorina and in some buildings.  Do you remember that?

17        A.   Yes, I remember that.  We used those doors for buildings located

18     there, and we also moved them as required when Assembly sessions were

19     held elsewhere, such as in the Famos building at Jahorina.

20        Q.   Well, since you were in charge of security of buildings in the

21     MUP of Bosnia-Herzegovina, isn't it true that all important buildings

22     that you secured in Sarajevo were equipped with those metal-detecting

23     doors?

24        A.   Well, state agencies had them.  But, more important, business

25     facilities did not.  The Presidency had them, however, the government

Page 6575

 1     buildings, the Assembly, Sarajevo airport.

 2             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]  Your Honours, I'm being told that

 3     on page 75, line 10 and 11, the witness gave a lengthier answer than was

 4     recorded.  He said it was almost 20 years ago, and he allows for both

 5     possibilities concerning whether Mr. Stanisic was introduced as the

 6     current minister or the minister to be.

 7        Q.   Did you actually say that?

 8        A.   Yes, I did.

 9        Q.   A moment ago, as you were discussing with my learned friend

10     Mr. Hannis you said one thing that aroused my interest.

11             You said that in the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina the

12     ministers' pay was provided by the Assembly, and that of the

13     under-secretary for state security by the government.

14        A.   Yes.  And I believe the under-secretary was better paid than the

15     minister.

16        Q.   That's exactly what I want to ask you.  In the former Bosnia and

17     Herzegovina, former, I mean, Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and

18     elsewhere in the former Yugoslavia, the position of under-secretary for

19     state security was always a bit stronger than the -- that of the

20     secretary for internal affairs.

21        A.   Yes, he was a key person.  We had a very strict hierarchy.  The

22     under-secretary for state security informed the minister of the interior

23     only selectively, only about certain things.  And in sometimes before the

24     war, he had to keep informed the President of the Central Committee, the

25     President of the Presidency, and possibly the prime minister.

Page 6576

 1        Q.   Isn't it a fact that the under-secretary for internal affairs had

 2     the job primarily of informing the highest state authorities.  I mean,

 3     the under-secretary for state security?

 4        A.   Yes, this was his job.  But sometimes he would go through the

 5     minister.  It all depended on who the minister was.

 6        Q.   I understand.

 7        A.   Sometimes that minister was actually someone who was not from the

 8     service, who occupied a major position in -- in the economy before that.

 9     It all depended on whether he was a professional or not.

10        Q.   You mean to say that care was always taken that the

11     under-secretary for state security should always be someone from the

12     service, a professional?

13        A.   It had to be someone from the -- the service.

14        Q.   So the professional had to come from the State Security Service?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   While the post of the minister could have been occupied by a

17     politician who happened to assume that position?

18        A.   Yes.  Dusko Gojan was a minister for many years and he started as

19     an operative and ended up as a minister.  He was replaced by a man who

20     had previously been at the head of the pension and social security fund.

21     He again was replaced by a policeman who used to have a large private

22     business.

23        Q.   When you say that the head of the pension fund assumed this post,

24     you're referring to the predecessors of Delimustafic in

25     Bosnia-Herzegovina, are you not?

Page 6577

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And the last individual you mentioned, a policeman who had a

 3     large private business you're actually referring to

 4     Minister Delimustafic, are you not?

 5        A.   Yes, I'm referring to Alija Delimustafic.

 6        Q.   The gentleman who came from the pension fund, do you recall his

 7     name?

 8        A.   Muhamed Pesic.

 9             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have completed the

10     portion of my examination that I previously planned before the scope of

11     his testimony was expanded to include Dusko Malovic's unit.  Perhaps I

12     should stop here and resume tomorrow at 10.00.

13                           [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

14                           [Trial Chamber confers]

15             JUDGE HALL:  In the remaining -- thank you, Mr. Zecevic.

16             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you very much.

17             JUDGE HALL:  We were just wondering in terms of maximizing time

18     whether the remaining half-hour today might be utilized by counsel,

19     Mr. Zupljanin.

20             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as the matters stand

21     now we will not have any questions of the witness.

22             MR. HANNIS:  I just want to bring to your attention, Your

23     Honours, we may need to notify victim witness to bring the witness later

24     tomorrow if we're going to have a late start, and I don't know if there's

25     anybody around.

Page 6578

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             JUDGE HALL:  So we will take the adjournment now until 10.00 in

 3     the morning, and the Registry should make the necessary arrangements to

 4     have the accused, particularly Stanisic, here at what ordinarily would

 5     have been the commencement time tomorrow, to allow his counsel to consult

 6     with him, in order to facilitate his further cross-examination of this

 7     witness.

 8             The -- the -- and, Mr. Witness, you will forgive if I don't

 9     attempt to call you by -- by your proper name, but you are still under

10     oath, sworn as a witness, and I am -- would remind you that the -- having

11     been so sworn, that you cannot communicate with counsel from either side,

12     nor in your communications with anyone outside of the court, can you

13     discuss your testimony, the -- the testimony that you are giving.

14             So the Court will now rise, and you are excused as a witness, but

15     you are not released.  And those responsible for your transportation will

16     ensure that you are back before the Tribunal so that it can resume your

17     testimony at 10.00 in the morning.

18             Thank you.

19                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.36 p.m.,

20                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 19th day of

21                           February, 2010, at 10.00 a.m.

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