Page 9734
1 Friday, 7 May 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning
6 everybody in and around the courtroom. This is case IT-08-91-T. The
7 Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin.
8 JUDGE HALL
9 May we have the appearances for the record, please.
10 MS. KORNER: Good morning, Your Honours. Slightly addled brain
11 after the election but it's Joanna Korner, Belinda Pidwell again, and
12 Crispian Smith for the Prosecution.
13 MR. ZECEVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Slobodan Zecevic,
14 Eugene O'Sullivan, and Ms. Tatjana Savic appearing for Stanisic Defence
15 this morning.
16 MR. KRGOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours, Dragan Krgovic and
17 Miroslav Cuskic appearing for the Zupljanin Defence.
18 JUDGE HALL
19 MR. KRGOVIC: He is present this morning.
20 JUDGE HALL
21 notice. Yes, could the usher please escort the witness back to the
22 stand.
23 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, while the witness is ushered,
24 yesterday Ms. Korner made an objection, and I was reviewing the
25 transcript and she is absolutely right. This was an improper question
Page 9735
1 from my side, and I withdraw that question. Yeah, actually comment.
2 JUDGE HALL
3 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you very much, Your Honours.
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 JUDGE HALL
6 are still on your oath.
7 WITNESS: MOMCILO MANDIC [Resumed]
8 [Witness answered through interpreter]
9 Cross-examination by Mr. Zecevic: [Continued]
10 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Mandic. We have to go through
11 yesterday's transcript to deal with a number of things.
12 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have page 9653
13 [Realtime transcript read in error "963"], line 4.
14 Q. It was said that in the fall of 1991 Denkovic arrived at the MUP,
15 and I think you said Srebrenkovic?
16 A. Srebrenikovic.
17 Q. Srebrenikovic?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Then page 9671, line 5 to 7. Let me remind you, my question had
20 to do with that particular governmental session, and you said that among
21 others in attendance, there was also Professor Simovic who was there?
22 A. Yes, he was deputy minster.
23 Q. Yes, but we also see in the transcript that Mr. Simovic, who was
24 the deputy prime minister, was in charge of internal policy and that
25 later on he was the chief of police and the minister of justice; is this
Page 9736
1 a mistake?
2 A. Well, it may have been a slip of the tongue.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 MS. KORNER: So, sorry, Your Honour, can I just ask, I am not
5 clear. What does he say was a mistake? Or your question.
6 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. You heard the question. Can you explain what was that slip of
8 the tongue?
9 A. Dr. Simovic was never the minister of justice and chief of
10 police. This is obviously a mistake. However, it is in the transcript.
11 I don't think I said that though.
12 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Madam Korner, does this suffice by
13 way of an explanation? In today's transcript the page number is
14 incorrect. I said 9653. That is page 2, line 11 of today's transcript.
15 9653, line 4.
16 Q. The next correction is on page 9681, line 25. Mr. Mandic, it is
17 stated that members of the Special Police force who were Serbs were
18 transferred to Vrace. In the transcript it also says that the Croats,
19 that is to say, the Croat Special Police, those of Croatian ethnic
20 background to Bjelave I think you said that the rest of the units, that
21 is to say, Croats and Muslims went to Bjelavu -- to Bjelava?
22 A. To the police hall in the settlement called Bjelave which is a
23 settlement in Sarajevo
24 the MUP is.
25 Q. Bjelave. The same mistake occurs on page 9690, line 23 and 9692,
Page 9737
1 line 4. In the transcript we have Bjelavar and instead it should be
2 Bjelava?
3 A. No, Bjelave.
4 Q. And one more intervention, at page 9690, line 17 something
5 remains unclear. We discussed the meeting in Krtelji or, rather,
6 meetings in Krtelji. If I recall your testimony correctly, concerning
7 the first meeting in Krtelji with the members of the special unit, you
8 went there and it was arranged there that any orders coming their way
9 must come from the tripartite body, that is to say, from the
10 representatives of all three ethnic communities; is that right?
11 A. Yes, it is.
12 Q. Very well. The second meeting at Krtelji attended by Mr. Vitomir
13 Zepinic on orders of the minister, you said that Jusuf Pusina was there
14 as well as and Bruno Stojic at that meeting at Krtelji where you were not
15 in attendance, that was the second meeting in early April, that was when
16 this Special Police Unit was divided?
17 A. Yes, it was on the 4th of April, and I did not attend that
18 meeting.
19 Q. Very well. The last intervention in the transcript, page 9695,
20 line 17. We discussed the barricades. In line 17 it says that you were
21 able to deal with that problem quickly because all of the party leaders
22 were elsewhere outside of Bosnia-Herzegovina attending some meetings.
23 Instead it should say that this is precisely why you were unable to deal
24 with the problem; is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
Page 9738
1 Q. Mr. Mandic, let's go back to the 4th of April and the resignation
2 of Mr. Zepinic. You said that he offered his resignation to
3 Mr. Krajisnik in Krajisnik's office on the 4th of April, which is in the
4 Presidency building of the socialist republic -- sorry, in the Assembly
5 building?
6 A. Yes, it was in Krajisnik's office in the Assembly building of the
7 Socialist Republic
8 Q. Mr. Mandic, we heard testimony here that that meeting was
9 attended by Mr. Karadzic, Koljevic, Ms. Plavsic, Mr. Djeric, Koljevic [as
10 interpreted] and yourself as well as some others. Do you recall
11 Mr. Karadzic being there?
12 A. He definitely was not, and Koljevic wasn't there. Ms. Plavsic
13 wasn't there. I think Mr. Simovic was as well as Mr. Zepinic, myself,
14 Mico Stanisic, Mr. Krajisnik, but I don't recall any senior governmental
15 officials as far as I recall, that is.
16 Q. Let me try to jog your memory then. We heard evidence that Dr.
17 Koljevic was quite aggressive towards Mr. Zepinic?
18 A. I truly don't recall that.
19 Q. And you say he wasn't even there?
20 A. Well, Koljevic is an elderly man, rather short. I don't recall
21 Professor Koljevic being there at all.
22 Q. You say that Mr. Karadzic was not there and that you are positive
23 of that?
24 A. I don't recall him being there either. I think that meeting was
25 chaired by Dr. Simovic and Mr. Krajisnik. They hosted it.
Page 9739
1 Q. We heard evidence here that Mr. Karadzic said that it was easier
2 to replace or remove Tito than it would be with Mr. Zepinic?
3 A. No, I don't think that is correct, whoever said that. This is
4 simply not true.
5 Q. Mr. Mandic, we also heard evidence that on that occasion several
6 members of the special unit, Mr. Repija and Mr. Maric entered the office
7 in full combat gear with hand-grenades, handguns, and knives?
8 A. No one was armed and those people did not come in at all. It was
9 a senior police meeting and the meeting with certain members of the
10 government at the Assembly speakers office. What hand-grenades, please?
11 To get inside the Assembly building with hand-grenades, that's not true.
12 Q. We also heard evidence that in front of the office or inside it,
13 there were some armed people in paramilitary uniforms?
14 A. Paramilitary uniforms? I don't understand. What are
15 paramilitary uniforms?
16 Q. Well, I suppose these were not official military or police
17 uniforms, but some rather specific uniforms?
18 A. This is the first I hear of any paramilitary uniforms. In that
19 building, the Assembly building, there was security at the entrance. To
20 repeat, the meeting was only attended by Mr. Krajisnik, some
21 governmental -- some members of the government and senior police
22 personnel. What other people? What you are telling me is simply not
23 true. There is a camouflage uniform and there's a regular police
24 uniform. What is this notion of paramilitary uniform? This seems to be
25 a brand new doctrine.
Page 9740
1 Q. The gist of it is whether you recall anyone on the 4th of April
2 in the Assembly building in the office or in front of it was -- whether
3 there was anyone who was armed?
4 A. In full responsibility I claim that there was no one with any
5 weapons. All weapons were supposed to be left at the entrance. The same
6 policy applies to all governmental and Presidency buildings.
7 Q. The last thing, Mr. Mandic. Did you know a certain Zoran who is
8 Mr. Zepinic's driver?
9 A. I don't recall him. If he was his driver, I may have known him
10 but I can't recall him off the cuff.
11 Q. We heard evidence here that you asked this Zoran, Zepinic's
12 driver, to liquidate Zepinic, that you ordered him to do this?
13 A. When was this allegedly?
14 Q. Then on the 4th of April.
15 A. That's nonsense. I'm becoming slightly irritated. Me ordering a
16 driver to kill someone?
17 Q. So your answer is no, certainly. Just a few questions left,
18 Mr. Mandic. Briefly tell me this, the Ministry of the Interior is part
19 of state administrations, state bodies, and it is organised as such?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And as all other parts it is organised in keeping with the Law on
22 State Administration?
23 A. Yes, that law and the law on the ministries and the law on the
24 government. In these specific segments, these three pieces of
25 legislation have to be completely harmonised. The regulation is rather
Page 9741
1 broad in legal terms concerning any state administration bodies. It is
2 quite voluminous as well.
3 Q. I'm being reminded to ask you of another thing concerning the
4 meeting of the 4th of April. Do you recall Mr. Stanisic threatening
5 Mr. Zepinic that he would kill him at that meeting?
6 A. Well, let me explain something about that meeting. I'm rather
7 agitated by the questions this morning, and I don't think I understand
8 them fully. That meeting was called, that is to say, Mr. Krajisnik
9 summoned Mr. Zepinic and us because the joint police Special Police Unit
10 was split up. There were words exchanged and arguments between Zepinic
11 and Stanisic at that meeting. It was only verbal. No one wanted to kill
12 anyone. It was rather unpleasant because Mr. Zepinic was faced with the
13 arguments of what he had done concerning him receiving bribes, and he
14 resigned. He was offered to stay with certain services, but he signed
15 his resignation and left. There was no fighting, arguing, guns, or
16 rifles. Nothing of that. These people were intellectuals. Out of the
17 five or six of them, there were three people with PhDs there. I don't
18 know who testified about this, but that's rubbish.
19 Q. Thank you, Mr. Mandic. It is not my goal to agitate you
20 whatsoever, but I do have to put these questions to you because this is
21 the evidence we heard.
22 Let us conclude then briefly and you can answer it with a yes or
23 a no. You claim that at that meeting there were no serious threats
24 issued against Mr. Zepinic?
25 A. There were definitely none.
Page 9742
1 Q. Thank you. Mr. Mandic --
2 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Zecevic, before you move on to something
3 else, could you briefly just take us through once again the positions at
4 the meeting on the 4th of April between Zepinic and Stanisic in relation
5 to the issue of splitting up the Special Police. What was the argument,
6 and who took which position in this matter?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, by your leave, I can
8 explain. I was witness to that. Mr. Stanisic and Mr. Zepinic did not
9 discuss the division of the Special Police Unit. Mr. Zepinic came to the
10 office of President Krajisnik from another meeting where he took place in
11 the disassociation of the special MUP unit of the Socialist Republic
12 Bosnia-Herzegovina. That meeting was held in Krtelji which is 2 to 3
13 kilometres from the Assembly and government building of
14 Bosnia-Herzegovina.
15 Zepinic took part in that meeting and he came directly to
16 Mr. Krajisnik's office who had summoned me, Simovic, and Stanisic before
17 that. He called Simovic because he was deputy prime minister in charge
18 of internal policy of the joint government of the Socialist Republic
19 Bosnia-Herzegovina who was also the boss to the minister of the interior
20 and of justice in that joint government. Mr. Stanisic was there as the
21 newly-appointed minister of the Serb police. And I was there because I
22 was person number one from among the Serbs in the joint MUP.
23 Veto Zepinic submitted his report on his participation in the
24 meeting where the special unit was divided. That is when the argument
25 ensued. All those in attendance were then informed of some of Zepinic's
Page 9743
1 money, business premises, and vehicle. Some words were exchanged, and
2 then Zepinic in his own way resigned from the position of the deputy
3 minister in the joint MUP. And he left.
4 JUDGE HARHOFF: But I thought that the argument that took place
5 in Mr. Krajisnik's office was an argument about the policies. So what
6 was the matter that was discussed?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The subject was the division of the
8 special unit which had already taken place and Zepinic was reporting and
9 informing us that he had done that together with Jusuf Pusina and Bruno
10 Stojic. Also at that meeting facts were presented about Vito Zepinic,
11 the things I explained a few days ago and then this verbal conflict
12 ensued between Zepinic and Stanisic about that.
13 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Mandic, what I just want to clarify is
14 whether Mr. Zepinic and Mr. Stanisic were in agreement about the division
15 of the Special Police?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were. Zepinic, in fact, just
17 informed us that he had already done it. And nobody among those in
18 attendance had any argument with that. Even I agreed, but the conflict
19 ensued when we started talking about Zepinic's -- I'm sorry, thank you.
20 JUDGE HARHOFF: That's all I wanted to clarify. Thanks.
21 MR. ZECEVIC: May I continue, Your Honours?
22 Q. [Interpretation] [Microphone not activated]
23 THE INTERPRETER: The other microphone please for Mr. --
24 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Mandic, just a few more
Page 9744
1 points on this subject. I understood your evidence yesterday and the day
2 before yesterday and also your evidence given to Ms. Korner as saying
3 that Vitomir Zepinic, Jusuf Pusina, and Bruno Stojic had gone to Krtelji
4 to a meeting to divide up the special unit on the orders of Alija
5 Delimustafic then minister of the interior, the Socialist Republic
6 Bosnia-Herzegovina?
7 A. Yes, yes. The minister had ordered that to prevent a conflict
8 inside the special unit which consisted of people from different ethnic
9 groups, and they were members of the special unit under arms.
10 Q. We have to repeat this for the record. Zepinic, Pusina, and
11 Stojic went to Krtelji to a meeting in order to divide the special unit
12 on the orders of minister Alija Delimustafic, minister of the interior of
13 the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina
14 A. It was not a division. Members of the Serb ethnicity of the
15 special unit went to the TEF
16 Bjelave to the police hall. Delimustafic said let them split until the
17 politicians decide how it will be organised in the future and how the
18 future police force will be formed.
19 Q. And after that meeting, Zepinic came to Krajisnik's office, and
20 all of you were invited, and that's when he reported that the meeting in
21 Krtelji had been finished, and that the members of the special unit were
22 divided?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And if I understood your answer to Judge Harhoff, Zepinic was
25 then confronted with evidence that was made public about his wrong-doings
Page 9745
1 and then there was a quarrel between him and Stanisic about that?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Thank you. Just one more question, Mr. Mandic. In your evidence
4 in the examination-in-chief and when you were answering my questions as
5 well, you said that Planja's house was primarily a military prison?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And that military prison, by the nature of things, was guarded by
8 the army troops?
9 A. Yes, Lieutenant-Colonel Trivunovic was commander in that area.
10 Q. And his units guarded the prison?
11 A. Yes, he was the military commander there.
12 Q. My very last question.
13 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown P400,
14 page 19 in B/C/S and page 23 in English.
15 Q. You were talking yesterday about the clash between Mr. Stanisic
16 and Ms. Plavsic at the Assembly meeting of the 28th November 1992
17 A. This conflict between them had lasted for awhile and only
18 culminated in that Assembly meeting.
19 Q. And you told us that your lawyer in Belgrade has a videotape of
20 that Assembly meeting?
21 A. Mr. Milan Vujin has that videotape, and I believe Ms. Korner has
22 it on the transcript from that session that when Mr. Stanisic said
23 criminals have been allowed to come to Bosnia to wage war, she said --
24 Q. That's what I want to read out to you, for you to confirm. Let's
25 just find the English page. It's in front of you, it's the last
Page 9746
1 paragraph on this page where Ms. Plavsic speaks. She says:
2 "First I want say something that concerns me personally: Mico
3 Stanisic mentioned me, and to avoid confusion and meaningless talk,
4 mostly about the crime that is destroying our country and our people,
5 just to make sure that you don't believe it's that kind of story, I would
6 like to say to minister Stanisic that it is not just a rumour but it is
7 the truth that after hearing the statement of the president of the
8 republic, his call to all volunteers from the Serbian and orthodox
9 countries, I sent letters to all addresses. Let me tell you, I tried to
10 gather, to rally together all those who wanted to fight for Serbdom, so
11 these letters were sent out. You talk about these paramilitary units and
12 non-paramilitary units, but, excuse me, that is none of my concern. I
13 was looking for men who wanted to fight for Serbdom, who want to fight on
14 the territory of Republika Srpska. Those letters were sent also to the
15 Soviet Union and they were sent out to Seselj, Arkan, and Jovic. Do
16 whatever you like, you can accuse me on that account, but I want to make
17 it clear that it is not a rumour. I really did that, and you condemn me
18 if you will."
19 A. That's precisely what I was talking about yesterday, Mr. Zecevic.
20 The conflict arose about that because these people, these weekend
21 warriors, were coming in and when there were no non-Serb houses
22 available, they looted Serb houses, and Mr. Stanisic expelled them. One
23 of those units was the Yellow Wasps in the area of Zvornik and then these
24 people were released on -- thanks to the efforts of Biljana Plavsic.
25 So it was like fighting windmills. It was not a conflict just
Page 9747
1 between Mrs. Plavsic and Mr. Stanisic, but also between me and
2 Mr. Djeric. We were trying to point out to this member of the Presidency
3 that it simply can't be done, you can't let paramilitary units come in
4 and do whatever they like. And then Biljana Plavsic put a condition that
5 she and Koljevic would stay in the Presidency if Stanisic and I stay in
6 the government, and we were then expelled to Belgrade at the insistence
7 of Mrs. Plavsic. It's on the record of one of the Assembly sessions and
8 finally it suited me.
9 Q. Let's just clear up one thing. You will agree with me, won't
10 you, that the reason why you and Mr. Stanisic opposed these paramilitary
11 units was not that they had begun to attack Serbian houses as well. It
12 was that you were in principle opposed to their conduct even when they
13 were attacking non-Serbs?
14 A. There were hoards of criminals who were wreaking havoc.
15 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] I have finished. Thank you,
16 witness.
17 JUDGE HALL
18 Cross-examination by Mr. Krgovic:
19 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Mandic.
20 A. Good morning, counsel.
21 Q. My name is Dragan Krgovic. We met about a month ago, if you
22 remember. On behalf of the Zupljanin Defence, I'll ask you a number of
23 questions on a limited number of topics arising from the
24 examination-in-chief regarding my client.
25 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we call up P738. It's the
Page 9748
1 record from that Assembly meeting where deputy Andjelko Grahovac
2 mentioned my client. It's page 52 in Serbian in e-court and page 53 in
3 English. Let's just wait for the page.
4 Q. Look at the last sentence. I will read what Mr. Grahovac said
5 verbatim. Let's just wait for the English. There it is.
6 THE INTERPRETER: Please slow down.
7 JUDGE HALL
8 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. "I know that in the department of Mr. Zupljanin, stolen cars from
10 Banja have been registered. I have to say that and I have information.
11 A white Suzuki with licence plates 132 490 registered by the chief in
12 Banja Luka, former cadres took part in that, communists amongst whom
13 Stojan Zupljanin. I was accused of some abuse and things like that."
14 Now, Mr. Mandic, as a professional policeman, a man who was part
15 of those agencies were faced with accusations that you were part of the
16 former communist system when you were trying to do your job and act
17 against people like this Grahovac man.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And there is something behind this attack against you. I'll show
20 you later a document that served as a reason for this attack on
21 Zupljanin, but registration of vehicles is not done by the police -- by
22 the centre?
23 A. Stojan Zupljanin was head of the centre supervising 32 units
24 which dealt with the registration of vehicles.
25 Q. So this claim that vehicles were registered at the office of the
Page 9749
1 chief, that was not true?
2 A. That's not true.
3 Q. I have prepared a set of documents I want to show you, and I have
4 them in hard copy for you. The background of the charges against my
5 client will be clearer from these documents.
6 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we call document 2D030402.
7 It's your tab 5.
8 Q. It's a decision from 1991. Let's just wait for it to be
9 displayed. Mr. Mandic, do you remember an action in 1991 when Veljko
10 Milankovic and his paramilitary unit, the Wolves from Vucjak were
11 arrested?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. This is a decision to remand him in custody signed by
14 Stojan Zupljanin. And this decision says that this man, Veljko
15 Milankovic was remanded in custody, and these are only some charges
16 against him, including forgery of documents, the registration papers for
17 the vehicles, et cetera?
18 A.
19 Q. He was actually forging registration papers for vehicles, that
20 was the accusation levelled against Zupljanin, right, by Grahovac?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You know that this Milankovic was arrested?
23 A. Yes, and then some MPs raised an outcry that Zupljanin was
24 arresting Serbian volunteers and Serbian warrior, but finally all of us
25 came from the former communist system. None of us originated in a
Page 9750
1 democracy or capitalist ...
2 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can this document
3 please be admitted into evidence and given an exhibit number.
4 JUDGE HALL
5 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 2D73, Your Honours.
6 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] The next document is tab 6.
7 Can I please call up Exhibit 2D040154.
8 Q. This is an intercept of a conversation between Radovan Karadzic
9 and Andjelko Grahovac. If you look at page 2.
10 Page 2 of this document, you can see that Grahovac was
11 intervening with Karadzic to have these men released. The first decision
12 was dated the 15th and then immediately on the 17th Grahovac said that
13 these men with whom ammunition was found and Karadzic asking what does
14 Stojan think about this, referring to Stojan Zupljanin, and Grahovac
15 replies that those were criminals and crooks because he had received from
16 chief Savic in Prnjavor this kind of information. And then it goes on
17 like this. He -- Grahovac is intervening with [indiscernible] to have
18 these men released. And if we look at page 3, Karadzic is asking him who
19 had arrested them, and he responded that it was done by the police.
20 There was some exchange of fire. Karadzic asked whether it was military
21 police and the answer was no, regular police. Then Karadzic says upon
22 whose orders, and the response is either on Zupljanin's order or this
23 Savic from Prnjavor. So basically the whole point of this conversation
24 is that Grahovac is asking Karadzic to intervene to have these men
25 released?
Page 9751
1 A. I was familiar with this event. Stojan Zupljanin consulted me
2 about this, and I supported his idea that all those men who were involved
3 in vehicle thefts be incarcerated and handed over to an investigating
4 judge. And that is when Grahovac called Mr. Karadzic and asked for this
5 intervention.
6 Q. But it didn't stop there.
7 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please look at the next
8 document, that's 2D07112. That is a tab number 7.
9 Unfortunately, Your Honours, since Ms. Korner raised this issue
10 later in the day, we are still waiting for translation. It's a short
11 document. It's a telegram, and the witness can read it in its entirety
12 pending the translation thereof.
13 JUDGE HALL
14 the interpretation.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Could the counsel please repeat the number.
16 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] 2D071112. 111 -- 2D07 -- yes, it's
17 all right. If we can enlarge this document.
18 Q. Mr. Mandic, this is a cable dated 28th November, 1991. I'm going
19 to read it out to you. It is addressed to the command of the Banja Luka
20 corps, attention of General Uzelac, and it was sent by Andjelko Grahovac,
21 right?
22 A. Yes, but I'm not familiar with this.
23 Q. What I'm interested in is for you to read it.
24 A. I have read it.
25 Q. I want to know what he is demanding here and what threats he is
Page 9752
1 make. He says here:
2 "I demand that you urgently intervene along with Stojan Zupljanin
3 to have Veljko Milankovic released because you have no grounds for
4 further prosecution. I also demand that the military police return the
5 seised camouflage winter uniforms confiscated from the fighters, 80
6 pieces. I also demand that Lieutenant Ratic returns 20.000 dinars, 2.000
7 German marks, and 2.000 Swiss francs that were confiscated from
8 Milankovic without any receipt. Unless you do that promptly, I shall do
9 everything I can for these and other things to be published on television
10 and in the press." Signed by Andjelko Grahovac.
11 So basically he is making threats, and he has demanded these
12 things having failed to intervene with Karadzic and Zupljanin. He is
13 sending this telegram to the army and he threatens to publicise the whole
14 affair and that he was going to do everything in order to effect the
15 release of this person.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Now, Mr. Mandic, I have to show you another document in order to
18 wrap up this topic. It's Exhibit -- just a second. 2D41, tab 8 in your
19 binder. It's a report on criminal and other illegal activities of Veljko
20 Milankovic and other members of the paramilitary formation from Prnjavor.
21 It was compiled by the Security Services Centre of Banja Luka.
22 Now, Mr. Mandic, you said that you were familiar with this
23 affair. This is not only to do about vehicle theft. You can see, and
24 I'm sure that you are familiar, is that there was a series of crimes
25 committed by these groups. They intimidated people from other ethnic
Page 9753
1 communities, they stopped vehicles and behaved in a very arrogant manner
2 and which all effected the security situation in the entire region. You
3 are familiar with the activities of this group?
4 A. Yes. Actually, they behaved violently in the region or district
5 of Banja Luka. This group had come from the Croatian front and started
6 behaving violently, especially against non-Serbian population.
7 Q. If you look at page 4 where it says in the second passage that
8 months of illegal activity of this group from Prnjavor caused anxiety and
9 fear and is causing problems among members of the police due to numerous
10 provocations and attacks on policemen. And their activities also
11 contributed to deteriorating of inter-ethnic tensions. And basically
12 this is a correct assessment of chief Zupljanin?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. If you look at the last page which is page 8. I'm going to read
15 the last paragraph above the signature of Stojan Zupljanin. That's on
16 page 8:
17 "The legal measures taken against Veljko Milankovic and other
18 members of the paramilitary formation from Prnjavor were very
19 tendentiously portrayed and highly politicised in certain media with the
20 obvious and well thought through intentions of raising suspicion and
21 doubt among the members of the public, particularly among the Serbs, with
22 regard to the legality of measures taken and eventually ending in threats
23 to senior officers. The facts themselves presented by themselves refute
24 any such attempt to discredit the services security organs and their
25 personnel and show that this was not a staged arrest or a show-down with
Page 9754
1 Serbian volunteers."
2 A. As I said, I'm familiar with this affair and this report was sent
3 to me towards the end of 1991 by I think Stojan Zupljanin or his chief of
4 the CID
5 Q. It was precisely Grahovac who threatened to go to the media and
6 smear the people who were involved in these actions?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Mr. Mandic, in conclusion, it is obvious what was the agenda that
9 Grahovac had for the attacks against Zupljanin because he accused him of
10 some problems that he was involved in?
11 A. Well, he was a communist. The man was just doing his job. I
12 received this report when I was the head of the administration for crime
13 prevention, and as chief of the CID
14 out these operative actions. I don't know who he was among those chiefs.
15 I think it was Jahic or a Muslim. I cannot remember exactly.
16 Q. Mr. Mandic, since I have finished with this subject, just one
17 more question. In your testimony, you mentioned that when you elected
18 the judges the Muslim judges with a view to -- in view of the opposition
19 in the Assembly, Mr. Karadzic tried to circumvent the Assembly, and he
20 used his constitutional powers and pursuant to his decision as president
21 of the Presidency elected and imported certain judges?
22 A. Yes, pursuant to Article 83 of the constitution of B&H, during
23 the state of imminent threat of war had powers to decide on certain
24 issues instead of the Assembly. He exercised this right and on many
25 occasions we appointed people to the post of prosecutors, judges,
Page 9755
1 magistrate, people in the administration of judiciary, according to the
2 ethnic composition of a given region.
3 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the counsel and the
4 witness please slow down. Thank you.
5 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Krgovic, the interpreters remind you once
6 again to slow down. Thanks.
7 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Exhibit 2D021664. The English
8 version has Exhibit number 2D021668. I suppose that's due to the fact
9 that the translation was belated. Tab number 3.
10 Q. Mr. Mandic, this is one such decision taken by President
11 Karadzic, and it refers to the courts in Banja Luka. If you look at page
12 2, you can see that there are judges that you mentioned. Roman numeral
13 XII, XIII, XIV, all these were Muslims?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Number XVI is Stanislav Jakl, I think he was a Slovene?
16 A. Yes, I think he was.
17 Q. Then you have number XX Medic, Adem, he was a Muslim?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Then Ruzica Topic, a Croat. Then on the last page there's
20 Zinaida Kadic - please turn the page - she was a Muslim?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. So this basically confirms what you had been saying all the time
23 that you were trying, actually, the president was trying to circumvent
24 the Assembly due to this composition?
25 A. Let me just explain. That took place in certain Assemblies,
Page 9756
1 however, in some of the Assemblies we managed to impose our proposals
2 reflecting the composition of all ethnicities, so it wasn't always that
3 Dr. Karadzic used his powers in that sense. Some Assemblies did vote for
4 the proposals of the minister of justice and regional prosecutor's
5 offices and competent institutions that nominated people to be appointed
6 to the Prosecutor offices and judiciary.
7 Q. Mr. Mandic, concerning the election of judges in mid-May, you
8 became the minister of justice and when you took up this position, you
9 found a rather messy situation. Some courts were not functioning at all,
10 and in some towns that were in the war zone, there were no judges at all?
11 A. There were no courts at all and that applied to a large number of
12 places because the war broke out in a large area, particularly in Eastern
13 Herzegovina
14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Bosnia.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And these institutions didn't exist
16 at all.
17 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. And in some of the municipalities in Krajina such as Skender
19 Vakuf and Teslic, Kljuc, and some other towns where there was fierce
20 fighting at the time when you took over your duties, there were no judges
21 at all, they had all virtually left?
22 A. Yes, you're right.
23 Q. And the system needed time to be set up?
24 A. I've already answered that to Mr. Zecevic. I think it sufficed.
25 I told him how we worked and how we went about it.
Page 9757
1 Q. And in a way this also impacted the work of the police. Even
2 when the police arrested someone, there was no one there to hand that
3 person over to to detain that person and to have any proceedings
4 instituted, in particular in some of the municipalities; is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And then there was an additional problem, as you said, which was
7 that 95 per cent of crimes were committed by military conscripts and
8 uniformed personnel in the Republika Srpska. The problem was how to
9 prosecute them?
10 A. In the state of an imminent threat of war, all people between 16
11 and 65 were military conscripts, and they fell under the remit of the
12 military judiciary.
13 Q. What about the civilian Prosecutor's Offices and judiciary, they
14 held no sway over them, they could not prosecute them, perhaps if among
15 the perpetrators there were civilians, perhaps that link could be made
16 and then arrest a whole group?
17 A. Well, yes, but they could only do an on-site investigation and
18 then transfer the case to the military Prosecutor in question. It was
19 all regulated by law.
20 Q. I wanted to show you a document which will confirm what you say,
21 which is tab 9. It is Exhibit 1D198. Your tab 9.
22 Mr. Mandic, this is an operational work-plan created by the
23 Security Services Centre in Banja Luka in May 1992. As an experienced
24 policeman, you know that whenever there is a complex event involving a
25 number of perpetrators of a crime, there needs to be a plan in order to
Page 9758
1 detain the number of people concerned?
2 A. Well, such an operative plan can be drafted in cases of simple
3 crimes up to terrorist attacks.
4 Q. Well, there was a crime committed by these members of the SOS and
5 Eagles as well as the Berets and TO members. There was any number of
6 units with different names there.
7 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Let's look at the last page which
8 is page 5. In the attachments we have some other events in question, but
9 I would like to see page 5 in the Serbian for now. In e-court, I think
10 it's page 6. The previous page, please.
11 Q. Look at the last paragraph.
12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the English
13 reference be provided.
14 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Page 6 in the English.
15 Q. The last paragraph, Mr. Mandic. It says:
16 "As long as the Military Prosecution Office and the military
17 court are in the process of being established, a plan cannot be
18 implemented because most of the offenders are conscripts and members of
19 the former TO, which is why civilian courts and prosecutors refuse to
20 conduct these proceedings."
21 In essence, this is what you have been saying. This confirms
22 what you said about the situation on the ground.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. I just wanted to tell you that this plan indeed was implemented
25 later on and people arrested but that's already a different topic.
Page 9759
1 MS. KORNER: Sorry, Your Honours. I mean, it's really the
2 objection yesterday to Mr. Krgovic. It's counsel giving evidence. I
3 mean, occasionally the witness is asked to agree with what counsel say in
4 evidence, but it is still counsel giving evidence.
5 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further
6 questions of this witness. Thank you, Mr. Mandic.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, Mr. Krgovic showed an intercept, 2D04
9 dot, slash, whatever, 0160. Now he is clearly relying on it for the
10 truth of the contents. He is relying on it as an accurate record. He
11 hasn't applied to make it an exhibit presumably because the Defence are
12 objecting to Your Honour's ruling on intercepts, but in our view, this
13 should be admitted as an exhibit.
14 JUDGE HALL
15 there would have been a question of it being -- whether it should be
16 exhibited, and the questions I was going to ask is whether it had been
17 earlier exhibited because, of course, I confess, that the list of
18 intercepts I wouldn't --
19 MS. KORNER: I agree. I asked the same question of Mr. Smith,
20 and I'm told no, it's not one of the ones that we put in because it
21 didn't directly impact on the face of it on this case. Now it does, and
22 it clearly should be an exhibit, otherwise, as I say, Mr. Krgovic is
23 relying on it for its accuracy and the truth of its contents.
24 JUDGE HALL
25 all. Mr. Krgovic, you --
Page 9760
1 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, you are familiar with
2 our position when the intercepts are concerned. It is our belief that
3 for the most part such intercepts are taken out of the context,
4 especially in the context of what Mr. Mandic was saying, and they do not
5 meet the threshold to be admitted.
6 JUDGE HALL
7 about to ask, which is that you showed it to the witness, notwithstanding
8 the basic position which we all remember the Defence takes about these
9 intercepts. Here is a situation where you actually showed it to the
10 witness and invited a comment on it. What was the -- what is your
11 position as to how the Chamber should, therefore, treat this particular
12 intercept which you are still insisting should not be admitted having
13 yourself opened the issue on the particular intercept with the witness?
14 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I showed two documents
15 to the witness, and I did not seek to tender them. The first one was the
16 cable sent by Mr. Grahovac and the second was the intercept. I just
17 wanted the witness to be reminded of that event to provide some context
18 to Mr. Grahovac's address in the Assembly. This is what I was striving
19 to do. I didn't ask for either of the documents to be admitted. I just
20 wanted to show them to the witness to see whether he can recollect the
21 event which caused Mr. Grahovac's intervention in the Assembly. I didn't
22 ask the witness to confirm the context or the participants in the
23 intercept.
24 JUDGE HALL
25 course, you anticipate, Mr. Krgovic, that when Ms. Korner re-examines, no
Page 9761
1 doubt she could return to this.
2 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I don't think I need to return to this
3 at all. It's a specious argument that Mr. Krgovic is attempting to put
4 forward. It's rather like newspaper articles. When it suits the Defence
5 they are perfectly prepared to use it despite their so-called objections
6 to the authenticity, and the like, of these intercepts. Mr. Krgovic has
7 used this intercept as evidence of the truth of what was being said and
8 the accuracy. He cannot, therefore, escape, one, the -- as I say, the
9 specious argument that intercepts should all be excluded and then use
10 them; and second, if that is the purpose for which it is being used and
11 it is accepted then the document should become an exhibit. It clearly
12 relates --
13 JUDGE HALL
14 unnecessarily complicating this because the simple solution would be for
15 you to apply in the course of re-examination.
16 MS. KORNER: I mean, I didn't even have to apply in
17 re-examination. I say that it should have been ask for by the Defence,
18 they cannot avoid it, and it should be made an exhibit.
19 JUDGE HALL
20 he feels the need to be consistent with his general position which is
21 perfectly understandable.
22 MS. KORNER: But it's not being consistent, Your Honour, that's
23 the point. He may try and say that, but it's being inconsistent, and
24 it's no different from any other document that had it been any other
25 document we would have been asked to make this an exhibit because he says
Page 9762
1 it undermines the allegation that was made by Mr. Grahovac against Mr.
2 Zupljanin in the Assembly, and we say it's an important exhibit as well.
3 I mean, it may not have been one we particularly chose to put in, but it
4 should go in.
5 JUDGE HALL
6 Defence hasn't sought to do so, I don't know that the Chamber can presume
7 to make it an exhibit particularly having regard to the reasons, which,
8 and again I use the word consistency, that the Defence has advanced.
9 MS. KORNER: But, Your Honour, this is the real problem. If the
10 Defence position as maintained in their appeal or application for leave
11 to appeal against Your Honour's decision on intercepts is that these
12 intercepts are all in some way corrupted, inaccurate, or as was put to
13 Mr. Mandic, that somebody in some case in BiH in the state court in
14 Bosnia
15 corrupting these tapes in some way, then they cannot use them. Once they
16 are departed from that, then they are stuck with the consequences.
17 JUDGE HALL
18 but unless I'm missing something, why don't you simply make the
19 application.
20 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, I'm quite happy. I ask in the light
21 of the Defence's, as I say, somewhat inconsistent position, that this
22 intercept be made an exhibit.
23 JUDGE HALL
24 again in response to your application. The document is admitted and
25 marked.
Page 9763
1 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1336, Your Honours.
2 MR. ZECEVIC: I would like just that our objection be recorded,
3 Your Honours. Thank you.
4 JUDGE HALL
5 point to take the break.
6 --- Recess taken at 10.25 a.m.
7 --- On resuming at 10.51 a.m.
8 JUDGE HALL
9 stand, the Registry has informed the Chamber of an error in the written
10 reasons issued on the 26th of March for the oral decision of the 1st of
11 March whereby the Chamber admitted into evidence intercept evidence
12 through witness ST-108. The reasons erroneously state that Exhibit P719
13 in the Martic cause was tendered by the Prosecution in the present case,
14 and that this Martic exhibit was admitted into evidence. However, this
15 piece of evidence was not tendered by the Prosecution, and is, therefore,
16 not admitted into evidence in this present case. In other words,
17 Registry need not seek to assign a number to that particular exhibit.
18 [The witness takes the stand]
19 JUDGE HALL
20 MS. KORNER: I hope you'll forgive, me, this is slightly jerky
21 because --
22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
23 MS. KORNER: It's on. I said, I hope you'll forgive me, but I'm
24 going in between a number of different volumes so there may be a slight
25 pause while I do that.
Page 9764
1 Re-examination by Ms. Korner.
2 Q. Mr. Mandic, the first matter I want to ask you about was
3 something that was put to you by Mr. Zecevic on Wednesday the 5th, which
4 the transcript number is, I don't know. Anyhow, he was putting to you
5 that you were unable to speak in parliamentary debates because you were a
6 member of the government. Do you remember, and you agreed with that?
7 A. I don't know what we were discussing. If there was something
8 concerning the Ministry of Justice, something that concerned me, I was
9 able to. As for parliamentary debates in general, I couldn't
10 participate. What was it about specifically?
11 Q. Wait a minute. First of all, why do you say that you couldn't
12 participate in parliamentary debates? What was it that you said
13 prevented you under the legislation?
14 A. I didn't say I was unable to participate. As far as Assembly
15 debates are concerned on topics that do not concern the government or the
16 Ministry of Justice, I did not participate. But when there were topics
17 regarding justice and government work on the agenda, then I participated
18 and even proposed topics.
19 Q. Yes. Sorry, Mr. Mandic. It was put to you, and I'm really
20 sorry, I marked down the original number from -- on the LiveNote of that
21 day, and I'm still trying to find it. It's some -- yes. It came up
22 because you were being asked -- this is, sorry -- it starts at page 9586
23 and continues over to 9587. Mr. Zecevic put to you:
24 "The Assembly has its own rules including discipline measures,
25 and these rules are written in the Rules of Procedure of the Assembly and
Page 9765
1 various other regulatory provisions applying to the Assembly?
2 "Yes.
3 "You participated in those Assembly sessions as a member of the
4 cabinet?"
5 And you said "yes."
6 And then it arose from a question I asked you:
7 "Mr. Mandic, the Prosecution asked you why you had failed to
8 react when you did not agree with the arguments of various MPs. Isn't it
9 a fact that you, as a member of the government, were unable to speak at
10 Assembly sessions even if you wished to unless a question is directed to
11 you by MPs concerning items on the agenda that concern your ministry?
12 Isn't it a fact that you were unable to take part in parliamentary
13 debates?"
14 And you said:
15 "When the issue of the election of these judiciary officials was
16 discussed, it is a fact that I had no right to speak. Thank you, and
17 this particular limitation applies to all members of the government and
18 ministers, doesn't it?"
19 Answer: "Yes, it does."
20 Now, I don't want to have to show you all the provisions that
21 relate to the conduct of the Assembly and who could speak, but are you
22 saying, Mr. Mandic, that there is a provision that prevented you on
23 taking part in discussions in the Assembly on matters other than those
24 that affected your ministry?
25 A. I think there is a rule that members of the executive authority
Page 9766
1 may only participate in discussion of matters concerning their area of
2 work or matters within their purview and the purview of their ministry,
3 and that's my conviction to date.
4 Q. All right. Are you able to -- I can put up the rules for you
5 right now, Mr. Mandic, but are you able to -- from your own recollection
6 as a long-standing minister, able to tell us under what provision you say
7 you were prohibited?
8 Q. Ms. Korner, I did not serve very long as minister, only eight
9 months, and I attended only two or three Assembly sessions when there was
10 discussion of staffing policy in the Ministry of Justice, so I did not
11 read the Rules of Procedure of the Assembly and statutory decisions. I
12 wasn't interested. It was not within my field of work. I was not a
13 member of parliament or a person participating in the work of the
14 Assembly in another capacity.
15 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, rather than -- because this is
16 something that can be seen itself. Rather than going through a rather
17 tedious exercise, the regulations governing the conduct of the Assembly
18 are set out in the constitutional law for the implementation of the
19 constitution of the Serbian Republic
20 the "Official Gazette" of the Serbian people for Monday the 16th of
21 March. And the relevant provisions one can find in Articles -- it's
22 headed -- it's part 5, "Sessions of the Assembly."
23 Q. Mr. Mandic, it couldn't be that you didn't intervene because you
24 didn't want to intervene as opposed to not being allowed to intervening?
25 A. I think I didn't have the right to intervene. I think it was out
Page 9767
1 of place for me to speak and to start to debate with members of
2 parliament. They elect me, not the other way around. I was not a member
3 of the Assembly.
4 Q. Are you aware of other members of the government speaking when
5 the topics were not ones that particularly concerned their ministries?
6 A. Most of the time in the government where the prime minister was
7 Mr. Djeric, he was the one who represented and spoke for the government,
8 but if a topic on the agenda concerned a particular ministry, then that
9 member of the government would take the floor. And that was the general
10 rule, people would take the floor as members of the executive authority
11 of the government when something concerned their line of work. In my
12 case, that was preparation of amendments concerning the Ministry of
13 Justice proposing drafts, topics that related to the ministry, but that
14 was always along our professional line of work.
15 Q. All right. Let's put it this way: Supposing we looked at
16 Mr. Prstojevic's various remarks, and that is how this all arose, and
17 effectively what he was talking about was the unlawful expulsion of
18 non-Serbs. Do you remember we -- I don't want to go back over it, but we
19 looked at that speech by him?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And is that something that the minister of the interior should
22 have intervened on?
23 A. I don't know.
24 Q. Right.
25 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, I'm sorry, I should have added, it
Page 9768
1 will be part of the law library, so I don't think I need to ...
2 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, Your Honours. I'm not
3 disputing the quotation given by Ms. Korner from the document, but I
4 believe the gist of the document, which is called the Rules of Procedure
5 of the Assembly, is that it governs the work of the Assembly, and it's
6 also part of the law library.
7 MS. KORNER: I agree, Your Honour. Yes, I agree. As I say, I
8 don't want to go through a lot of the sections because it will take a
9 long time.
10 Q. Next, Mr. Mandic --
11 JUDGE HARHOFF: Ms. Korner.
12 MS. KORNER: Yes.
13 JUDGE HARHOFF: I just want to be sure that we got the witness's
14 answer correctly in response to your question of whether the minister of
15 interior should have intervened on the issue of the unlawful expulsion of
16 non-Serbs.
17 MS. KORNER: He said, I don't know.
18 JUDGE HARHOFF: Because -- well, yes, but I guess the issue is if
19 he could have.
20 MS. KORNER: Yes.
21 JUDGE HARHOFF: And what would the witness's -- Mr. Mandic,
22 regardless of the fact of whether Mr. Stanisic should have intervened,
23 the issue is could he have intervened in the Assembly when the discussion
24 was held on the expulsion of non-Serbs?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm not sure whether
Page 9769
1 the minister of defence or the minister of police should have taken the
2 floor, whether it should have been an MP or the president of the
3 municipality or a member of the Presidency who was in charge of that
4 topic of that area of work. I am not sure who should have responded.
5 JUDGE HARHOFF: Are you unable to tell us under whose authority
6 this issue fell?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my opinion, that would have been
8 an issue for the army, the Ministry of Defence, but you'll have to allow
9 that I wasn't really knowledgeable about these things.
10 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.
11 MS. KORNER:
12 Q. Sorry, Mr. Mandic, just to pick up on that, who could be more
13 knowledgeable? You were an ex-member of the MUP having been a member of
14 the MUP for many years, you were at the time the minister of justice,
15 surely you are able to assist His Honour with who was responsible for
16 dealing with this.
17 A. As regards Mr. Prstojevic and Ilidza municipality, the military
18 commander in that area and chief of police, Tomo Kovac, were the most
19 qualified, and when I was talking to him, I gave him certain instructions
20 at the very beginning of the war. I don't know about later.
21 Q. Mr. Kovac reported directly to Mr. Stanisic, didn't he?
22 A. Yes, yes, that's correct.
23 Q. And Mr. Kovac later became, in fact, minister of the interior?
24 A. Not awhile later but a long time afterwards, three or -- two or
25 three years later.
Page 9770
1 Q. All right. So can we move then to another matter that you were
2 asked about, and that's this question of information and communication.
3 At page 9589 it was put to you by Mr. Zecevic:
4 "It's also a fact, isn't it, Mr. Mandic, that for a certain
5 period of time until the corridor was opened, neither the government nor
6 the ministries had almost no information about what was happening in
7 north-west Bosnia
8 central Bosnia
9 correct?"
10 And you said: "Yes, I explained that all telecommunications and
11 road communications were severed."
12 And then I'll come on to the next bit in a moment.
13 Now can we just examine that a little more closely, if we may.
14 The MUP published, did it not, for the purposes of the government and the
15 Presidency daily bulletins on what was happening?
16 A. At what time, Ms. Korner?
17 Q. Effectively almost from the moment that the MUP was set up,
18 beginning of April, end of March, beginning of April?
19 A. I don't know. I wasn't working in the MUP.
20 Q. I know you weren't, but this is -- just let me finish,
21 Mr. Mandic. In fact, you were working in the MUP until the 19th of May?
22 A. No, I worked until the 24th of April until that session at Pale
23 when the so-called Security Council informed me that I would be taking
24 over the Ministry of Justice. From the 10th of April until the 24th.
25 After that I started preparations for the establishment of the ministry
Page 9771
1 and waited for my appointment.
2 MS. KORNER: [Overlapping speakers] ...
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You have documentation on that
4 session of that 24th of April when the decision was made that I would be
5 minister of justice because Nikolic, the minister, failed to show up for
6 work. And that's when I was informed. I attended that meeting, and from
7 that moment on I started preparations for the establishment of the
8 Ministry of Justice. The day was the 24th of April. I was exactly 14
9 days in the Serbian police. On the 8th, I was relieved of my duty, on
10 the 10th I arrive at Vrace, and between the 10th until the 24th of April,
11 I was deputy chief of the Serb -- deputy minister of police.
12 MS. KORNER:
13 Q. By and large, the MUP of the Serbian republic carried on the
14 traditions, the procedures of the old MUP of BiH; is that right?
15 A. Yes, yes.
16 Q. All right. Can I just show you some documents please for a
17 moment, Mr. Mandic. I'm going to go back as you say you weren't there
18 after the 24th, unfortunately I've started on the 25th, but we'll check.
19 MS. KORNER: Can we have a look, please at 65 ter 939, please.
20 Q. The Serbian republic, minister of the interior, 25th of April,
21 and it's number 6, so I hope we can assume there were five before it. We
22 are checking to see whether we've got them. Daily report of the MUP.
23 Can you look, please -- well, I mean, let's just go through the areas
24 that it reports on very quickly. First of all, it talks about what is
25 happening in Gacko. Then paragraph 2.
Page 9772
1 A. Gacko.
2 Q. Gacko, thank you. Paragraph 2, talks about what is happening in
3 Prijedor, minute information about robbery. And Prijedor, of course, is
4 in the Krajina. Sorry, perhaps you better confirm that.
5 A. Yes.
6 MS. KORNER: Can we go over the page in English, it's still the
7 same page in B/C/S.
8 Q. Two army reservists open fire in front of the Tartuf restaurant
9 in Novi
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Then a long report from Banja Luka. Also in the Krajina?
12 A. Yes.
13 MS. KORNER: I think we need to go to the next page in Serbian.
14 Can we go to the next page in English. That's Tuzla at the bottom.
15 Sorry, can we go to the next page in English again. Sorry, can we go
16 back one. Yes.
17 Q. We see reports from Bratunac, Brcko. The entire population of
18 Brcko has left the town. Allegedly there's an agreement to divide the
19 town. SJB Brcko remains undivided as yet, and Lukavac, whatever, and
20 then the last page we'll see essentially goes out under Mico Stanisic's
21 signature.
22 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm hopefully -- and we can pull them
23 up if necessary -- we've got all of these bulletins which start on the
24 19th of April, number 1.
25 Q. So even before you left the MUP, Mr. Mandic, these reports were
Page 9773
1 being put out. Are you saying you were unaware of them?
2 A. I was not aware of them. For 14 days, I was at the school at
3 Vrace in Sarajevo
4 I can't even recall its name. And those 14 days, I stood in for
5 Mr. Stanisic in the area of Sarajevo
6 and I never saw these dispatches. Whether the dispatch communication was
7 through the telecommunications of the former JNA army, I don't know, and
8 I cannot answer that question.
9 As for the fact that telephones and communications were not
10 working, that is true. These are dispatches.
11 Q. Yes, but you can only send dispatch -- sorry, Mr. Mandic, I'm
12 going to go on with this, but the point that you were trying to make or
13 you leapt to agree with Mr. Zecevic, is that you weren't getting any
14 communications at all until the corridor was opened, that neither the
15 government nor the ministries, it was put to you, had information
16 north-west Bosnia
17 Bosnia
18 possibly your memory is playing you tricks, if I can put it that way.
19 MS. KORNER: All right. Can we quickly have a look, please, at
20 the next one, P1254.
21 30th of April. And the information there -- and Samac was one of
22 the particular municipalities you mentioned. According to reports in
23 paragraph 2, received from the public security station of the Serbian
24 Bosanski Samac, the town is now free and the situation is gradually
25 becoming normal. Members of the Croatian paramilitary have been
Page 9774
1 disarmed, some of them surrendered their weapons voluntarily. There are
2 quite a few relatives of Alija Izetbegovic in the prison and some
3 information about Mr. Delimustafic trying to negotiate the exchange. And
4 I think that's all we need to know about that. And again, it's signed on
5 behalf of Mr. Stanisic apparently.
6 Can we go, please, to 65 ter 960. This is described as daily
7 incident bulletin number 106. If we look at the second -- can we go to
8 the bottom. We need to go to the next page to look at the date. It's
9 the 22nd of May. If we go back to the first page, starts with, Sarajevo
10 CSB
11 people were arrested. Then it goes on to other security incidents
12 dealing with Prijedor, murders, and then over the page in English,
13 please. Again Bosanski Novi, Banja Luka, Celinac, Gradiska, and then
14 Bijeljina. And certainly at this stage there is Doboj and Trebinje
15 security service centres did not submit daily incident bulletins.
16 Can we look, please, at the 25th of -- sorry, P1266.
17 MR. ZECEVIC: I would just like to note that Ms. Korner is again
18 now she is giving evidence, and she is not posing a question to the
19 witness.
20 MS. KORNER: Sorry, Your Honours. I'm doing an exercise, which
21 at the end I'm going to ask the witness whether he stands by his answer.
22 That's all. So I'm going to have to take him through the documentation.
23 But that will be the question.
24 Can we -- yes. This is -- again we need to look, please, at the
25 last page in English and the second page in B/C/S. Not a very good copy
Page 9775
1 but it looks like it's the 25th of May.
2 Q. Now, by that stage, you are clearly a member of the government,
3 Mr. Mandic; is that right? As minister of justice?
4 A. What time-frame are we talking about, Ms. Korner?
5 Q. 25th of May.
6 A. Yes, yes.
7 Q. And if you look, this report actually says that it's submitted to
8 the government, the Pale staff, the office of the minister, the minister,
9 and three under-secretaries, and it comes from the analysis and
10 information service of the MUP; is that right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And while we are on that page, we can see that Bijeljina, Doboj,
13 and Trebinje CSBs did not file their reports on security-related issues,
14 and the telephone and other lines within Sarajevo and between Doboj and
15 Trebinje have been down for a long period. So certainly there were
16 problems with communications, but ...
17 MS. KORNER: Can we look then, please, at the first page in B/C/S
18 and the second page in English.
19 Q. There's a long report from Banja Luka CSB, and, in fact, it gives
20 this report about what was happening at the Mejdan police station. Was
21 that an incident you were aware of, the SOS so-called Serbian defence
22 forces attacking the Mejdan police station?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Okay. And then we see at the bottom of the English page, the
25 explosions set off in Sanski Most by unidentified individuals caused
Page 9776
1 alarm amongst town residents. Right.
2 MS. KORNER: And then can we look next, please, at 65 ter 951.
3 Going back in time actually.
4 Q. It's a daily report --
5 MS. KORNER: You have to bring it down a bit, the English, maybe
6 the B/C/S. Down. Thank you.
7 Q. Number 19, 12th of May, 1992, and all I want to point out here,
8 Mr. Mandic, is in the third paragraph it talks about information coming
9 out of Bosanski Samac. 15th of May -- sorry --
10 MS. KORNER: P1013.
11 Q. I want now to look at the other side to show that Banja Luka was
12 clearly receiving communications from Sarajevo or Pale. This is
13 Mr. Zupljanin on the 15th of May, somebody I think received it on the
14 18th, saying we have received the communication number and date as above,
15 from the Serbian Republic
16 entirety.
17 Then on the -- I can leave that one.
18 MS. KORNER: And, yes, can we look, please, at 1265. P1265.
19 Sorry, I'm so sorry, not 65 ter, P1265.
20 MR. ZECEVIC: I must -- I would just like to note one thing. We
21 haven't been notified that any of these documents will be used.
22 MS. KORNER: This is re-examination. All of these are on our 65
23 ter. Sorry, Your Honours, I shouldn't talk across to Mr. Zecevic. Your
24 Honours, we notified all the documents we are going to use, this is
25 cross-examination -- this is re-examination. As far as I know, there's
Page 9777
1 no obligation to send a list in advance of re-examination.
2 JUDGE HALL
3 MS. KORNER: Absolutely. Some of them are exhibits already. I
4 mean, can I say, Mr. Zecevic thinks I'm taking unfair advantage, I'm
5 simply using the documents, which are 65 ter, which have been in
6 evidence, and, of course, he can always apply to Your Honours to re-cross
7 examine if that's what he wants to do.
8 MR. ZECEVIC: No, it was just my opinion that it would be only
9 fair that we were notified at least last night about the documents for
10 cross-examination [sic] if they are coming from somewhere different.
11 Those are not the documents that you used in your direct or we used in
12 our cross-examination. That is the only thing. I mean, I just noted
13 this, I'm not raising any problems with it.
14 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could you please
15 supplement the rules applicable in this Tribunal. I think it is the
16 obligation of the Prosecution to disclose to the Defence the documents
17 that they are going to use in redirect, so what is the purpose then for
18 our giving our documents to the Prosecution for cross-examination whilst
19 they do not do the same for redirect. I don't think it's fair and,
20 therefore, I think you should rule that it is incumbent on the
21 Prosecution to supply us with a list of documents that they are going to
22 use in the redirect. Therefore, that is a prejudice to the equality of
23 arms in these proceedings, even if it refers to 65 ter list.
24 JUDGE HALL
25 and Mr. Zecevic. However, in as much as the Tribunal in its history to
Page 9778
1 date has not seen the need to formulate such a rule, I would have thought
2 that the answer is that the ordinary rule about re-examination being
3 based on what has arisen in cross-examination necessarily implies that
4 any documents which implicitly fall within that -- within that box, as it
5 were, would be allowed to be used, and for myself, I don't see the need
6 to formulate a new rule to specifically deal with this.
7 MS. KORNER: Your Honour said exactly what I was going to say.
8 It arises from cross-examination which counsel decided to pursue.
9 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] All I can say, Your Honours, is
10 that this position regarding the obligation of the Prosecution was raised
11 in the Popovic case and that there was a guide-line issued governing the
12 acting of the parties to the proceedings. So it became the jurisprudence
13 of this Tribunal.
14 MS. KORNER: May I continue, because I've got a lot to get
15 through with Mr. Mandic?
16 JUDGE HALL
17 MS. KORNER: Thank you. Right. We've now got the right
18 document. This is the daily report, and can we go in page 2 in English,
19 I think it's maybe at the bottom of the B/C/S. We need to go to the
20 second page in B/C/S as well.
21 Q. 1st of June, so while the corridor operation, Mr. Mandic, is that
22 right, are in full blast, as it were?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And this is the analysis and information service again sending it
25 to the MUP, the Serbian government and handwritten delivered to the
Page 9779
1 government, under-secretaries, and office of the minister, and all we
2 need to note is that it's got a long paragraph about what is happening in
3 Banja Luka.
4 That's just a set of examples, but there are a number of these
5 documents. Now in addition to SJBs reporting to the MUP, there were
6 also, obviously, reports that the army produced. Were you aware of that?
7 A. Ms. Korner, I'm testifying about what I know my information was,
8 that at the beginning of the war, the Krajina was cut off in terms of
9 telecommunications and roads. In what way the police communicated
10 amongst themselves, I know nothing about. I think that someone who
11 worked at the police at the time should provide information about that to
12 you. All I know is that all telecommunications and road communications
13 were severed with Herzegovina
14 very difficult to establish contacts with various parts of
15 Bosnia-Herzegovina. This is what I know, and I'm talking only about what
16 I know. How the police communicated is not up to me to explain to you.
17 Q. Mr. Mandic, sorry, can I explain. You agreed with an assertion
18 made by Mr. Zecevic that you were not -- you, the government, were not
19 receiving any information from the areas that you mentioned, in
20 particular, the Krajina. I'm simply asking you whether in the light of
21 these documents, which were clearly being sent to the government, you'd
22 like to reconsider that answer?
23 A. I'm reiterating, Ms. Korner, what I said, and that is that
24 communications with certain parts of Bosnia-Herzegovina were cut off. We
25 didn't have information about what was happening there. I'm talking
Page 9780
1 about what was said at official meetings of the government. However, in
2 what way the police and the army communicated is something that I cannot
3 tell you about. I also don't know whether Mr. Djeric, the prime
4 minister, received any information. We started receiving information
5 from the army and the reports about events in certain areas where the
6 Crisis Staffs started setting up camps, prisons, and things like that.
7 That is when these commissions were set up to go into the field in order
8 to restore the rule of law.
9 Q. Sorry, it may be a mistake in the translation. You said, I also
10 don't know whether Mr. Djeric, the prime minister, received any
11 information about the army and reports about events and camps. Do you
12 mean you do know? Because you've just said that's when these commissions
13 were set up.
14 A. Mr. Djeric was a member of the Supreme Command or rather, the
15 Security Council, as a representative of the government, which included
16 the army commander, the president of the republic, two members of the
17 Presidency, and the minister of defence. What reports and information
18 reach these people is something that I know nothing.
19 Q. Well, all right, you say you know nothing, but just so that we
20 could look at one example, can we have please up exhibit -- just a
21 minute.
22 MS. KORNER: P260, please. Exhibit P260.
23 Q. This is the minutes of the fourth expanded meeting of the War
24 Presidency, dated the 9th of June. Present, Dr. Karadzic, Dr. Plavsic,
25 Dr. Koljevic, Mr. Krajisnik, Dr. Djeric, misspelled, General Mladic,
Page 9781
1 General Gvero, and Colonel Tolimir. And General Mladic briefed the
2 Presidency in detail about the overall situation of the Serbian army and
3 gave figures on the quantities of weapon, ammunition, spare parts,
4 et cetera. And then under -- after a detailed discussion the following
5 was concluded: Instruct members of the Serbian army to abide by the
6 Geneva Conventions in their treatment of prisoners of war.
7 So are you saying, Mr. Mandic, that after he attended this
8 meeting, Mr. Djeric never said to anybody else in the government, there
9 are serious problems going on with these camps and what is happening in
10 these areas?
11 MR. ZECEVIC: Sorry, I don't see the connection with this
12 document and what you have just said, Ms. Korner. I don't see in this
13 document mentioning of any camps, any atrocities committed in the area.
14 MS. KORNER: Instruct members of the Serbian army to abide by the
15 Geneva Conventions in their treatment of prisoners of war.
16 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes.
17 MS. KORNER: Yes. It might suggest, Mr. Zecevic --
18 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, it might suggest. I agree. It might suggest
19 anything. It might suggest that they were not informed before about the
20 Geneva
21 information that anything of a kind was -- I'm really just trying to keep
22 it within the context of the document.
23 MS. KORNER: Okay. All right, Mr. Zecevic. Can we look,
24 please -- can we have up 65 ter 1460, please.
25 Q. Which is two days later, in fact. It's dated the 11th of June,
Page 9782
1 to the Main Staff of the army. And can we have a look, please, at -- I'm
2 not sure where it's going to be in B/C/S. One, two, three, four, fifth
3 page in English. Yes, probably on that page, thank you very much.
4 Q. This talks about the collection centre for the members of the
5 paramilitary formation formed in Bileca by the order of the 2nd Operative
6 Group Command, grew into the war in the prisoner accommodation centre
7 operating under very difficult circumstances due to the large number of
8 people it must accommodate, 244 of whom 16 are women and several minors.
9 Occasional threats by pro-Chetnik forces will be attacked and liquidated
10 along with a corps command, and we propose that persons for the centre be
11 urgently exchanged, and the centre, if possible, relocated.
12 Now, were these matters, matters that Mr. Djeric, when he came
13 back from meetings of the expanded War Presidency, would discuss with
14 other members of the government, particularly the minister of justice?
15 A. Ms. Korner, this was a strictly confidential dispatch sent by the
16 Herzegovina
17 government, Mr. Djeric, or the Ministry of Justice? Look at the first
18 page where it says strictly confidential, it's a military secret. How
19 can a military secret be discussed in the government?
20 Q. Sorry, Mr. Mandic, you said that --
21 A. What does that have to do with the government. I don't
22 understand. I don't understand what you are saying.
23 Q. Mr. Mandic, the part I've just read is, and what you spent
24 sometime explaining both here and in the Krajisnik case, was this
25 question of the exchange of prisoners. And this is what this is
Page 9783
1 suggesting, isn't it, and the exchange of prisoners was a matter for the
2 government?
3 A. We said that the army had their own commission for exchange until
4 a central state commission was set up at the level of the government.
5 And this is what this strictly confidential document speaks about, but
6 since this was a military secret, I don't think that anyone from the
7 government could have an insight into it and be informed of it. It was
8 sent by the Herzegovina Corps to the Supreme Command, and I see this
9 document or something like this for the first time in my life.
10 Q. Yes, Mr. Mandic, please understand this, all that I am dealing
11 with at the moment is the suggestion that you agreed with it that you
12 were not getting any information during the period of the corridor
13 operation in particular from Krajina, Bosnia
14 Now, in the light of what I've just shown you, do you still want
15 to stick to that answer?
16 A. Ms. Korner, you have in front of you the documents and all the
17 minutes of the meetings of the government, what was decided and what
18 conclusions were reached. All these documents and information presented
19 at the government sessions were something that was acted upon, and
20 relevant conclusions were reached. I'm saying again that regular
21 telecommunications and road communications were severed. Whether the
22 army, however, or the police had their own means of communications is
23 something that I know nothing about, and I'm telling you the truth.
24 Q. Look, Mr. Mandic, just concentrate, please, for a moment. It is
25 not your position, is it -- or is it your position that no member of the
Page 9784
1 government, no minister, leaving aside yourself for the moment,
2 Mr. Stanisic, or Mr. Djeric was getting information during the course
3 between April and the end of June, 1992 from the areas that were within
4 the vicinity of the corridor?
5 A. I'm telling you, Ms. Korner, about what was discussed at
6 government session, what the agendas were. But who had what information
7 and what kind of information, it's not up to me to guess.
8 Q. All right. Let's have a look at another matter that you agreed
9 with Mr. Zecevic about.
10 JUDGE HARHOFF: Ms. Korner.
11 MS. KORNER: Yes.
12 JUDGE HARHOFF: The obvious question to put to the witness would
13 then be, well, Mr. Mandic, what information did you have? If you you
14 can't tell anything about what other members of the government might have
15 had, then what information did you receive either formally or informally?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, all the information
17 that I received were presented to the government. There are minutes and
18 conclusions and debates to that effect. And that was the only
19 information that I could receive at the government sessions, either from
20 the prime minister or from other ministers. And all that is contained in
21 the documents whether in this case file or some place else. You can find
22 the agendas, the proposals, and the conclusions. This is the information
23 that I had. Whether someone in the government knew more or less is
24 something that I know nothing about.
25 MS. KORNER:
Page 9785
1 Q. Yes. But Judge Harhoff asked you formally or informally. You
2 dealt with this in the Krajisnik days. Did you have informal information
3 about camps and ill-treatment?
4 A. I was focused more on Sarajevo
5 that in the Krajisnik case.
6 MS. KORNER: I'll find -- I'll ask Ms. Pidwell if she can find
7 it. You said rather more than that, but I don't want to waste time.
8 Would Your Honours give me for one moment.
9 Can we move, while that's being done, to what you said to
10 Mr. Zecevic about Manjaca. He was putting to you that, in answer to
11 questions that I was asking, you confirmed in response to my question
12 that you had no information about Manjaca and Sanski Most. Do you
13 remember that? And your answer was this: "Yes, that is correct. I had
14 no information whatsoever" -- sorry, this is page 9591.
15 "We simply couldn't obtain any information because the Krajina
16 was completely severed. Only after the corridor had been opened, we
17 could use the roads and telecommunications.
18 "Q. Although your ministry had certain institutions on the ground
19 that were under your jurisdictions, like, for example, the prison in
20 Doboj, the district prison in Doboj, you had no contact with that
21 institution all the way until the corridor was open; is that correct.
22 "A. Yes. Due to this and similar problems I think that Doboj was
23 set up only towards the end of 1992 in December after we had completed
24 the re-organisation."
25 First of all, can I deal with what you said about Manjaca.
Page 9786
1 MS. KORNER: Yes, this is part of the 92 ter package, Your
2 Honours. At the moment it's got the number -- I think it was given
3 exhibit numbers, but I don't know what they are. Anyhow, it's 10302.19.
4 Tab 58. Exhibit P1318.37.
5 Q. And you were asked about this intercept in the Krajisnik case.
6 And by the way, while we were on the subject of intercepts, you've
7 listened to a large number of them, haven't you, Mr. Mandic, both for the
8 purposes of the Krajisnik case, also for this case. In any of the ones
9 that you have listened to, have you seen any or heard any evidence that
10 these are not your conversations as you had them with the various people?
11 A. I only said that we knew we were being listened to by
12 [indiscernible] and we made fun of it. He seem to have meddled with
13 those conversations in order to create his own archives. In this
14 conversation, you can see that I was aware of being wire-tapped. All the
15 intercepts you presented to me as well as those that were presented to me
16 by the Prosecution in the Krajisnik case were publicised a number of time
17 on federal TV during the war in different versions.
18 Q. I agree. I agree entirely, Mr. Mandic. The only thing I'm
19 asking you is, you've listened to these. Are these conversations,
20 conversations that you had?
21 A. Yes, for the most part.
22 Q. All right. Well, this one, this is between you -- somebody
23 called Ivo Rezo. Who was he?
24 A. It is a work-mate of mine from the police. A Croat.
25 Q. Right. And then between yourself and Mr. -- it should be -- is
Page 9787
1 that Branko Kvesic, the ex-head of the SNB in the old BiH MUP?
2 A. He was the chief of the state security.
3 Q. And it's right, isn't it, that you conducted -- sorry, you and
4 indeed Mr. Stojic and Mr. Kvesic and Mr. Rezo all remained, despite the
5 conflict, on good terms?
6 A. Throughout the war I was on good terms with all of my colleagues,
7 whether they were Muslim or Croat.
8 Q. All right. This is the 10th of July, and the only part of the
9 conversation I want to ask you about is --
10 MS. KORNER: It's on page 11 of 23 in English. I'm going to have
11 trouble finding it, I think, in B/C/S. Your Honours, could we try
12 looking -- usually it's less. Could we try looking at about page 9 in
13 the B/C/S.
14 Q. Mr. Mandic, you can read English, can't you, while somebody tries
15 to find it in the B/C/S. This is you and Mr. Kvesic talking, and you
16 say -- or he says to you, this is the 10th of July:
17 "There are some of our men in Manjaca, man." And he says, and
18 you say, I'm so sorry, "in the Krajina, right?" And over the page in
19 English, please. He says: "Yes." You say: "We can do it."
20 "Q. What can you do about it? A lot." And then naturally -- and
21 you say: "All right, I'll tell it to my main boss."
22 Stopping there for a moment, who was your main boss, Mr. Mandic?
23 A. The prime minister Djeric and the president of the republic,
24 Mr. Karadzic.
25 Q. And then Mr. Kvesic asked you to check it, please. You ask:
Page 9788
1 "Where are they placed?" And he says: "You know where I am." And you
2 say: "I know it, but where are they placed over there." You say: "They
3 are placed somewhere on Manjaca" -- he says, sorry. And you say: "Over
4 there in the military camp in Manjaca."
5 So stopping there, and I'm sorry that we couldn't find it in the
6 B/C/S, but what effectively Mr. Kvesic was asking you to do was what so
7 many other people had asked you to do was to get somebody released, that
8 right, or to find some of his men?
9 A. Branko Kvesic didn't know at all ... First of all, he informed me
10 of the existence of Manjaca and Krajina. I didn't know where it was, as
11 you can see. And he asked me as a friend and work-mate whether something
12 could be done so that those people would be found. He had no idea what
13 my powers were and who was in charge of those prisons, et cetera. I
14 asked him whether this was in the Krajina, whether Manjaca was in the
15 Krajina.
16 Q. Exactly. That's what I mean, you knew in July because you say in
17 the Krajina, right, checking that it's not him who says in the Krajina,
18 it's you. So you knew where Manjaca was.
19 A. I asked him if it was in the Krajina, and he confirmed this. I
20 was completely unfamiliar with where Manjaca was let alone knowing
21 anything about what was going on there. You can see that in this
22 conversation. I did try to assist Branko in order to get to those people
23 by whatever means, and this is where the conversation ended.
24 Q. I'm sorry, do you mean it was an inspired guess when you said
25 Krajina as opposed to anywhere else in Serbian Bosnia?
Page 9789
1 A. You can see the question mark, is it in the Krajina? I asked him
2 if Manjaca was in the Krajina. You can see it in the Serbian clearly.
3 And Branko told me it was. I had no idea where Manjaca was. You can see
4 the question mark. And he explains that the army or rather, the TO, were
5 in charge of that camp. I had no idea.
6 Q. Just a moment, Mr. Mandic. First of all, it's page a 7 in the
7 B/C/S. I see it's up there.
8 He says to you there are some of our men in Manjaca. I'm asking
9 you how you happened to hit upon the Krajina, as opposed to, for example,
10 I don't know, Vlasenica I heard somebody else say?
11 A. Manjaca is a hill or a mountain in the Krajina, Ms. Korner.
12 There is a large monument there to the victims of World War II. I was
13 taught that in my history class, and I went to visit it. Manjaca is not
14 a camp alone, it's a mountain. It is likely that the military camp was
15 named after the mountain. It's a large mountain, and there were many
16 civilians shot there in World War II. It's history.
17 Q. Are you saying you didn't know that Manjaca was a military
18 training-ground before this and had been opened originally in 1991 to
19 hold prisoners from Croatia
20 A. I didn't know that. I hear of this for the first time from you.
21 Q. All right.
22 MS. KORNER: Can we go back then, please, can we go to the next
23 page, because you say he was telling you it was a military camp. No,
24 sorry. Where are we? The page before that. Thank you. Page before
25 that, please.
Page 9790
1 Q. "You know where I am.
2 "I know it. But where are they placed over there?
3 "They are placed somewhere on Manjaca.
4 "Over there in the military camp on Manjaca?"
5 It's you, not Mr. Kvesic who calls it a camp.
6 A. Could I have it in the Serbian, please.
7 MS. KORNER: Yes. At the top of the page, is it not?
8 A. Let's see the previous page where he explained to me that they
9 were at Manjaca in the military camp, Branko Kvesic said so, and then I
10 repeat, is it in the military camp?
11 Q. All right. I don't want to -- I think we've spent enough time on
12 this, and as you are anxious to finish today and so am I, Mr. Mandic,
13 we'll leave that. Are you still saying you didn't know about Manjaca
14 until -- when do you say you first heard of Manjaca? When you got the
15 report?
16 A. I can't say with any certainty when I heard of it but as soon as
17 we did ... I think once the corridor was created, Manjaca was disbanded.
18 That was my information. It was a strictly military camp which was
19 disbanded by presidential decree in the summer of 1992. I think my
20 information is correct, and believe me when I say I know nothing of the
21 camp. It was a military camp which lasted for only a short period of
22 time as far as I know.
23 Q. Well, I'm not going to say whether your information is correct or
24 not. Did you hear of a camp called Batkovic?
25 A. Yes.
Page 9791
1 Q. And did you know that prisoners from Omarska and other places
2 including Manjaca were transferred from there -- from Omarska and Manjaca
3 to Batkovic?
4 A. Ms. Korner, these were all military camps, military prisons. I
5 can generalise about what I did or did not hear, but I have no official
6 information. I didn't even know of Batkovic in Semberija. It's
7 somewhere in the environs of Bijeljina in the barracks, is it?
8 Q. While we are dealing with that, it is your assertion that
9 Omarska, the camp that was in Omarska was a military camp?
10 A. I'm not certain of that. I don't know.
11 Q. If it was a police camp, was that something that the minister
12 should have been informed of?
13 MR. ZECEVIC: I would just like to get the reference in my
14 cross-examination where this comes from, Omarska.
15 MS. KORNER: The cross-examination as put -- would you like to
16 sit down, Mr. Zecevic, while I stand up. Thank you.
17 The cross-examination adduced from Mr. Mandic or put to
18 Mr. Mandic, that all the camps and, indeed, the majority of the prisons
19 were run by the military. I'm now dealing with camps that he knew about
20 that were not run by the military.
21 JUDGE HALL
22 MS. KORNER: Oh right.
23 JUDGE HALL
24 [The witness stands down]
25 --- Recess taken at 12.06 p.m.
Page 9792
1 --- On resuming at 12.30 p.m.
2 [The witness takes the stand]
3 MS. KORNER:
4 Q. I just, Mr. Mandic, want to finish this question of the
5 information that you had, and I want to remind you of what you said in
6 Krajisnik, which you confirmed a few days ago you didn't dispute, but
7 still dealing with information, if Mr. Zupljanin was aware that there was
8 a camp under the control of the police for holding prisoners, would that
9 be something that Mr. Zupljanin would be expected to report to
10 Mr. Stanisic? And I'm drawing on your long years as a police officer.
11 A. According to the rules of service, he should have. I don't know
12 whether he did though.
13 Q. Just quickly to remind you of what you were asked and answered in
14 Krajisnik, this is at page 8917. It's day 5. You were asked:
15 "What was the situation in respect of conditions and
16 accommodation detention facilities and were guarded by or held by
17 police," something went wrong there, I think, but anyhow, with the
18 English recording. And your answer was:
19 "The government, as an executive branch, was not capable to
20 supervise directly the facilities that were safeguarded mainly by the
21 army and to a lesser extent by the police. Various reports and
22 information came from the ground about irregularities and inhumane
23 treatment in these facilities and certain parts of the Republika Srpska
24 and Bosnia and Herzegovina," which is to deal with the question you were
25 asked by ... do you stand by that answer?
Page 9793
1 A. Yes, I do. I said the same thing in the Krajisnik case and here.
2 Q. Well, I'm not sure about here, that's why I was asking you about
3 it. And just for the purpose of the record, you said at page 8926:
4 "We" -- and when I -- well, the question was from Mr. Tieger:
5 "Did the poor function of the judiciary have an impact on the issue that
6 was concerning the government, that is, the retention of people in
7 detention facilities and camps and the ill treatment in those
8 facilities?"
9 And you say: "We, and when say I say 'we,' I mean the
10 government, we received a lot of information from the ground, negative
11 information concerning camps, the emergence of camp, closing of camps,
12 and the difficulty in the practice of the judiciary, and we made great
13 efforts in order for the state commission for exchange to be equipped
14 with [indiscernible]" and so on and so forth. And agreed, do you stand
15 by that answer?
16 A. I think I said the same thing here when we were discussing the
17 establishment of state-level commissions by the government. That was the
18 information that gradually poured in, and we reacted to it. I think the
19 answers were identical in both cases.
20 Q. And finally on this whole topic, and I want to move to something
21 else, the question of when Doboj was opened. Could you have a look,
22 please, at the document which, I think was -- it's P1306. It was tab 82
23 in our documents.
24 MS. KORNER: Sorry, I've made an error.
25 Q. Because I do want to finish today, so do you remember appointing
Page 9794
1 Mr. Vidic in July as the warden of Doboj prison? I can show you the
2 document, if you like, if I can find it. That's the wrong one.
3 A. Please, I probably did.
4 Q. Doboj prison was operating from June, July; is that right? Not
5 from December, as you said?
6 A. I think it came into function towards the end of the year,
7 although I'm not sure. I know that we formed one in Sarajevo first, then
8 in Banja Luka, Foca, and Doboj next. The way we established county court
9 is the way we followed with the prisons. I think you can all find it in
10 the "Official Gazette". There's nothing in dispute there.
11 Q. As I say, Mr. Mandic, because I've made a wrong -- don't worry.
12 The Court has seen the document, in any event.
13 Can we now move, please, to a different topic, please. You were
14 asked at 9627 of the transcript, yeah, about -- this was put to you:
15 "Let us get back to Hasan Cengic and the Party of Democratic
16 Action. You were certainly aware that in the course of 1991 the SDA
17 party secretly sent Muslim trainees for training to the MUP of the
18 Republika Srpska without informing the MUP of the Socialist Republic
19 Bosnia-Herzegovina?"
20 And I think somewhere else you talked about arming. Do you
21 remember saying that?
22 A. No. I said that the information I had was that through Hasan
23 Cengic, the SDA, as a party, sent Muslim representatives for training to
24 Croatia
25 Q. Yes. And you were asked also about the question of the police,
Page 9795
1 the Muslim police receiving arms; do you remember that? I can't lay my
2 hand on the reference. But I want to ask you about the other side of
3 this.
4 A. Yes, the reserve police force.
5 Q. And you were asked about document 25. I just want to ask you
6 about -- sorry, Mr. Mandic, could you have a look, please ...
7 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, I'm so sorry, as I say, every now and
8 again my noting goes completely haywire over a matter of days. Your
9 Honours, hopefully I can come back to it at another stage.
10 Q. Now, yesterday, that was on the first day when you were
11 cross-examined, you were asked and dealt with the Cutileiro plan, and you
12 as everyone else says that the split of the MUP took place because of the
13 Cutileiro plan, which you say was signed; right?
14 A. No, no. It wasn't because of the Cutileiro Plan. It was one of
15 the reasons only because the plan foresaw the local police forces be
16 split along ethnic lines, or to reflect the ethnic makeup of the
17 particular region.
18 Q. Absolutely, that's it, Mr. Mandic. You say it was one of the
19 reasons, and certainly that's what was proposed, but you know, don't you,
20 that it was never actually --
21 A. That is the basis. It is clearly stated in the dispatch that it
22 was pursuant to the constitution of the RS, the Law on Internal Affairs,
23 and the Cutileiro Plan, i.e., the Lisbon Agreement. You have in the
24 dispatch all of the elements spelled out which resulted in this. It's
25 all clear there.
Page 9796
1 Q. Yes, but, Mr. Mandic, you are aware, aren't you, that on the 18th
2 of March, 1992, so well after the discussions in the Assembly, the three
3 sides had agreed purely to a statement of principles?
4 A. I had the complete Cutileiro Plan and the Lisbon agreement where
5 you clearly have provisions about the functioning of the police. It's
6 somewhere among the documents.
7 Q. Yes. Mr. Mandic, just listen carefully to the question. I am
8 not disputing for one moment that one of the elements of the statement of
9 principles was that there would be a divided police force. But in actual
10 fact, the agreement was never actually signed by anyone? It never came
11 into the statement of principles, that was all.
12 A. It's not true that he didn't sign it. It wasn't ratified because
13 Mr. Izetbegovic dropped the agreement upon his return to Sarajevo. When
14 he said that he thought one thing before lunch and another after lunch,
15 that's what he said when they asked him why he gave up on the agreement.
16 The agreement was never ratified.
17 Q. Well, it isn't, is it, Mr. Mandic, that's what I want to know,
18 simply it wasn't a convenient, if you like, principle on which you could
19 hang what you intended to do in any event, which was split the MUP? When
20 I say you, I mean the Serbian government.
21 A. Sorry, I did not understand you.
22 Q. Sorry, I was distracted, Mr. Mandic.
23 Mr. Mandic, you had already - we are going to look at the
24 February 11th meeting in a moment - you had already, hadn't you, decided
25 long before even the statement of principles was decided, that was agreed
Page 9797
1 upon, that you were going to split the MUP?
2 A. Not that we were going to split the MUP, but we were going to
3 create the Serbian MUP once the problem began with the joint MUP and one
4 of the grounds for that was the Cutileiro Plan. With the appearance of
5 Mirsad Srebrenkovic and the relationships within the police force growing
6 more complicated, that's how it all started.
7 Already in February, Mico Stanisic was nominated, and we were
8 informed that he would become the minister. And it was officialised with
9 my dispatch, if that's what you mean.
10 Q. This is the point, isn't it, once you had declared the Serbian
11 Republic in Bosnia-Herzegovina, it was inevitable, wasn't it, that there
12 would be a split in the MUP? So again, back to January of 1992.
13 A. What is the question?
14 Q. The question is, Mr. Mandic, the declaration of the Serbian
15 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina in January, didn't that mean inevitably
16 there would have to be a separate Serbian MUP?
17 A. That was a response to the self-proclamation of one part of
18 Bosnia-Herzegovina and one at the community as independent. The Serbian
19 people did not want to leave the common state, but once one of the
20 nations proclaimed their independence, then we said we have to make our
21 own state now. Our hand was forced. You know that the referendum was
22 carried out without the participation of the Serbian people. None of the
23 Serbs turned out.
24 Q. Mr. Mandic, I'm not -- can I say straightaway, I understand your
25 position and that of many others, but this was all caused by what
Page 9798
1 happened in October. All I want to know is, is it right that once you
2 declared the Serbian Republic
3 were concerned, inevitable? Either yes or no, please.
4 A. No, no, but just let me just explain, please, I'm your witness,
5 let me explain this. We in the executive arm just carried out what the
6 Assembly of the Serbian people decided. On the 23rd when the Law on
7 Internal Affairs was published in the "Official Gazette," within eight
8 days under that law, we created the Serbian MUP, and that's when the
9 dispatch was sent out.
10 It was not up to us to chart policies but to carry out the
11 decisions of the Assembly. If the Assembly had said let's create a
12 unitarian Bosnia-Herzegovina where voting will be conducted in proportion
13 to the numbers of population, we would have done that.
14 Q. That's fine, I want to move on to the 11th of February meeting.
15 Now, what you said about that was that it was organised by you; right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And you personally invited Mr. Delimustafic?
18 A. I informed Mr. Delimustafic about that meeting. I had gone to
19 see him and I told him minister, if you can come and attend yourself or
20 send someone because we need to discuss these problems that had
21 accumulated already, and we were going to discuss them at the
22 headquarters of the police.
23 Q. And he refused to come, that's what you are saying, is it?
24 A. He didn't dare to come. He didn't want to come. He would have
25 been replaced immediately.
Page 9799
1 Q. Did he refuse to come? Did he tell you, I cannot possibly come?
2 A. Yes, he said, I can't come.
3 Q. [Overlapping speakers] ... no intention to have a secret meeting
4 at all?
5 A. In a public building in the restaurant on the first floor of the
6 Bosna hotel there was no intention to hold a secret meeting.
7 Q. Mr. Mandic, you want to finish today, don't you? So please,
8 please just answer the question very quietly. Right. Did you ask any of
9 the other senior staff of BiH MUP, for example, your friend Mr. Kvesic,
10 who was in charge of the I suppose it was then the SNB but the DRB or
11 whatever?
12 A. No, I didn't ask him.
13 Q. [Overlapping speakers] ... not meant to be a secret meeting?
14 A. It was a meeting to discuss the problems of the Serbian part of
15 the MUP, 2.000 police officers who were supposed to be dismissed from the
16 service and all other problems concerning Srebrenkovic and the operation
17 of the Serbian MUP that did not concern the Croats.
18 Q. See, you didn't ask anybody who wasn't a Serb to this meeting,
19 did you, other than, as you say, Mr. Alija Delimustafic?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And why in that case, as you clearly were discussing important
22 and, let's put it this way confidential matters, why didn't you hold it
23 in the premises of the CSB
24 A. It was more comfortable in the Bosna hotel. We had waiters there
25 and s cafeteria nearby. It was an open room. It was not a secret
Page 9800
1 meeting. A secret meeting would have been held in a closed conference
2 room. It was just an opportunity to exchange views on a problem and to
3 find some common ground on the problems that could not be resolved.
4 Q. But, Mr. Mandic, what you were discussing on any showing were
5 matters really that shouldn't be known to the general public; isn't that
6 right? These were internal police matters?
7 A. That's not true. We wanted the public to know about these
8 problems, and we informed the public, Ms. Korner. We discussed it also
9 at the headquarters of the MUP without any success. We didn't want to
10 keep these secret.
11 Q. And so the fact that Mr. Zupljanin's deputy was a Muslim,
12 Mr. Jahic, had nothing to do with -- that's not why you didn't hold the
13 meeting in the CSB
14 A. No. Really not. I swear to you. It had nothing to do with any
15 intention of secrecy.
16 Q. And the minute-taker, Mr. Vilasovic [phoen] had been selected by
17 you, had he, because you knew him?
18 A. I think he was a driver. I can't remember what he was. He was
19 some sort of lower-level employee. He was not an official.
20 Q. You talked about him in the Krajisnik trial briefly.
21 A. I can't remember that name. I really don't know what position he
22 occupied.
23 Q. [Overlapping speakers] ... the minutes ...
24 A. I don't know. Whether it was I who picked him or someone else, I
25 can't even remember who chaired the meeting.
Page 9801
1 Q. All right. And the final thing that I want to ask you about the
2 actual meeting is, were the minutes sent to Mr. Delimustafic or given to
3 him by you once they had been typed up?
4 A. Yes. I took them to him.
5 Q. You personally gave him the minutes?
6 A. And Mr. Delimustafic was made aware of all of that. He knew in
7 advance what the problem was. We presented it all to him several times.
8 Srebrenkovic, the arrival of these police officers without vetting, the
9 problems with official IDs. All these were well known problems in the
10 functioning of the joint MUP.
11 Q. And did Mr. Delimustafic do anything about, go and talk to
12 anybody about what was clearly being discussed as a split in the MUP on
13 the 11th of February?
14 A. Not that I know.
15 Q. And you didn't ask Mr. Zepinic to this meeting, did you?
16 A. No, I did not.
17 Q. Because Mr. Zepinic, as you knew, was, in fact, totally against
18 the idea of splitting up the MUP, wasn't he?
19 A. I really don't know what his views were. I can't speak about
20 that.
21 Q. Well, you were asked to look again at the dispatch that you sent
22 out immediately after that, which is -- it was Defence document tab 28.
23 A. I know that dispatch by heart.
24 MS. KORNER: I know. I just want to have it up again for a
25 moment. P527. Thank you.
Page 9802
1 Q. And you were asked about it and said it was a public and open
2 dispatch and you had -- and it was received by those on duty in the
3 respective police stations and centres. Now, you agree, it's -- it
4 doesn't set out what the conclusions were, or indeed, what the meeting
5 was about. You simply say:
6 "Following the conclusions reached at the meeting held in Banja
7 Luka, please set up and have a meeting with all senior executives."
8 So anybody reading that wouldn't have the faintest idea of what
9 had been discussed, would they, on the 11th of February?
10 A. I don't know how you interpret this. It says: "Following the
11 conclusions" --
12 Q. Stop. Does that tell anybody who might read this open dispatch
13 what the meeting was about or what the conclusions reached were? Simple
14 yes or no.
15 A. Could you repeat the question, I wasn't focused.
16 Q. It's fairly obvious. Right, you sent it to Zupljanin, Banja Luka
17 CSB
18 A. It was sent to all those police officials who attending the
19 meeting.
20 Q. Yes, but this is what I want to know. You say it was an open
21 meeting and you were sending it to everybody. Why didn't you send it to
22 the Bihac CSB
23 A. Because that man would not have forwarded it to all the police
24 agencies on the ground. I asked these people to inform all the agencies
25 in their territory, including, of course, Muslims and Croats, because I
Page 9803
1 said in the area the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina MUP because
2 some of these parts interfered -- sort of were involved in our problems.
3 Q. You didn't send it to the Livno CSB, and there were Serbs working
4 there as well, weren't there?
5 A. Where the majority were Croats, these problems discussed at the
6 meeting were not relevant.
7 Q. Didn't go to Tuzla
8 A. No, I did not send it to areas where the leaders were Muslims who
9 advocated the unlawful expansion of the MUP. That's Bihac, Zenica,
10 Tuzla
11 Q. Right. Now, you said at one point to Mr. Zepinic, after a long
12 explanation at page 9676 when you were talking about the Cutileiro Plan
13 and all the rest of it, and you explained that now the Dayton Accords
14 effectively implemented the Cutileiro Plan, and you said:
15 "And what did we have in the meantime? A bloody war for four
16 years, and who is responsible for that, I ask you?"
17 Now, could you have a look, please, at one of the documents that
18 was part of the 92 ter package. And it is, I don't know what the exhibit
19 number is, but it was 1489 on the 65 ter list. P739. Thank you.
20 I'm sure you remember this, Mr. Mandic. This was an interview
21 conducted with you in a magazine called "Ekstra." It's not clear, I
22 don't think it was ever discovered when it was published. And you were
23 asked, page 2 in English, and it's on that page, the whole thing is one
24 page:
25 "How did you personally take the political conflict and severance
Page 9804
1 of relations between the Republika Srpska and the FRY, Federal Republic
2 of Yugoslavia
3 As a man I'm very devoted to both Slobodan Milosevic, Radovan
4 Karadzic. With Karadzic and Krajisnik, I began the war in Sarajevo and
5 now when I'm sitting here and watching what happened, I find
6 justification for the Serbian leadership of Yugoslavia. I justify it by
7 the fact there was an objective threat of putting twelve million people
8 in total isolation, which would have disastrous consequences, and in
9 order to avoid that, Slobodan Milosevic and his associates had to do what
10 they did, in my opinion."
11 And then further on you were asked this, you were dealing with
12 people who had left, and it said -- sorry, next page, please, in English.
13 Karadzic's family is at Pale, as is the family of Momo Krajisnik. And
14 then the question, it says:
15 "Biljana Plavsic is not the only person who got her relatives
16 out. Many delegates have sent their families to Belgrade and places in
17 Yugoslavia
18 is at Pale, as is the family of Krajisnik. Koljevic's at Belgrade, as is
19 Biljana's family. We differed in respect to this issue Mico Stanisic and
20 I started the war in Bosnia
21 and set out to Vrace. We were supposed to be shot." And then you go on
22 talking. Can we go to the next page in English. He's talking about
23 Ostojic a swindler. Stanisic was dismissed from office. "The fact that
24 some see me as Slobodan's man is a result of the fact that Mico Stanisic
25 and I are friends. Mico Stanisic and I started the war in Bosnia
Page 9805
1 That's what you said, wasn't it, then Mr. Mandic, some time ago
2 now, looking at the photograph?
3 A. Ms. Korner, I don't know what this newspaper is, but this
4 interview was given probably several years after the fact, for propaganda
5 purposes during the conflict between me and Biljana Plavsic. I was
6 telling the truth here, whereas this interview is unauthorised. It's not
7 true, and it has nothing to do with what actually happened in 1991 and
8 1992.
9 Q. Are you saying, Mr. Mandic, that what you said -- first of all,
10 do you agree that's what you said, leaving aside whether it's true or
11 not?
12 A. Never. Never in my life. I never said I started the war in
13 Bosnia
14 something like that. I have rather a high opinion of myself, but still,
15 I would not have been able to overestimate my role to such a degree.
16 Q. When you saw this article when it came out, did you ask them to
17 print a retraction?
18 A. The first time I saw this article was when it was given to me --
19 shown to me by Mr. Tieger when I was interviewed as a suspect. I don't
20 even know in which city this newspaper is published. And it's obvious
21 that this was in the 1990s, after the war, I believe.
22 Q. Yes, I'm sure it was after the war.
23 MS. KORNER: Can you look now please at the interview, the one
24 that you gave to "Slobodna Bosna" on the 10th of April 1998
25 -- 65 ter 1389. Sorry. P735. Thank you.
Page 9806
1 Q. Now before we go into this, do you agree that you gave this
2 interview to "Slobodna Bosna?"
3 A. Could you just show me the date and the year? I can't remember
4 this.
5 Q. I think you can see the date if we enlarge the B/C/S. It's 10th
6 of April, 1998. Can you see that?
7 A. Yes, I can see that.
8 Q. You were shown that in the Krajisnik case. This is part of
9 your ... so did you give that interview?
10 A. I can't remember.
11 Q. 1998 is a long time ago now, but when you saw it in the Krajisnik
12 case, did you remember it? Or before the Krajisnik case?
13 A. It was probably presented there. I don't recall if I was able to
14 to recall it at that trial or not. This was 12 or more years ago.
15 Q. Let's just look at what you apparently said there. It's
16 headlined: "It wasn't just Serbs and Croats negotiating, we've offered
17 the place of the president to the Yugoslav government to Izetbegovic
18 too." And then this is said to be a quote from you, "there would be no
19 war if Ramiz Delalic was arrested in time. Dragan Kijac, Mico Stanisic,
20 and myself organised the barricades in March. Now you have been telling
21 the Court that this was a spontaneous outbreak. Did you say that --
22 first of all, did you say that to this magazine?
23 A. I don't remember. I really don't remember. 1998, some Sarajevo
24 newspaper. And how could I talk about Mr. Izetbegovic as the prime
25 minister of Yugoslavia
Page 9807
1 Q. All right.
2 MS. KORNER: Can we just move on in the English to the fourth
3 page, please.
4 Q. The March barricades -- was the question: "The March barricades
5 in Sarajevo
6 organisation, and what did the SDS
7 you dealt with the bridegrooms, the killing of the Serb wedding. And you
8 said: "Quite a few municipal leaders from the SDS demanded that
9 something be done in protest since they knew the perpetrator had been
10 identified but not arrested. Had Delalic then been arrested, even if he
11 stayed in prison for just ten days, tensions would have calmed down.
12 Then the people on their initiative took out to the streets and erected
13 barricades. In order to avoid chaos and as a sign of our Serbian
14 strength, Rajko Djukic headed the committee for the organisation of
15 barricades. I do not wish to hide anything, Dragan Kijac, Mico Stanisic,
16 myself, and some others from the MUP took part in this, and we organised
17 everything so as to avoid blood shed and show the public and Izetbegovic
18 that they could not act like that."
19 Now, was that correct?
20 A. Well, Ms. Korner, this is what I said in this trial, we organised
21 and supervised the check-points in order to avoid bloodshed. It was not
22 us who erected the barricades. What it says here is that the municipal
23 leaders of the Serbian Democratic Party took to the streets on their own
24 initiative. Not only I, Stanisic, and the rest controlled these people,
25 as did everybody in the Ministry of the Interior. We wanted to stop the
Page 9808
1 bloodshed. Of course you couldn't expect the Muslim police officers to
2 go to the barricades and try to calm the tensions and the people, and not
3 a single incident happened within the span of 48 hours thanks to the
4 Serbian part of the police in the joint MUP. We didn't organise the
5 barricades. I and the other Serbs instead took care that no incidents
6 took place in the MUP. Whereas, the ordinary people took to the streets
7 on their own initiative. This is what you read. Although I don't
8 remember every detail.
9 Q. I'm sorry, Rajko Djukic headed the committee for the organisation
10 of the barricades?
11 A. That's correct, since the political leadership of the SDS was
12 abroad. The remaining representatives of the people in Bosnia
13 Djukic, and Muhamed Cengic, the vice-prime minister, organised this and
14 tried to overcome the situation in a calm way, and in that they were held
15 by the Serbian police officers. As I said, you can't expect Muslim
16 police officers to go to the barricades. That would result in bloodshed.
17 It was not us who organised the barricades. We took care and we made
18 effort to avoid bloodshed, and this is what I said before this Trial
19 Chamber. It is true that Muhamed Cengic and the vice-prime minister and
20 Rajko Djukic negotiated about the ways of overcoming the situation.
21 Q. And in the same interview, you dealt with, didn't you, what had
22 happened at the school at Vraca? We can show it to you, if you like,
23 Mr. Mandic.
24 MS. KORNER: Page 5 in English.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's not necessary, just ask me a
Page 9809
1 question.
2 MS. KORNER:
3 Q. Well, what you saw -- what you said there about this was that
4 there was mistrust within the special unit, a difference of opinion
5 between the special unit members of Serbian nationality and the others.
6 You then discussed the split of the building.
7 "That's what we agreed on. I invited Karisik and 35 special unit
8 members on Saturday, the 5th of April to enter the building. They had
9 barricaded the school, arrested my brother, along with two or three men.
10 170 men had come to Croatia
11 we decided to go to the school -- into the school nevertheless. If the
12 members" -- over the page, please. "If the unit had not gone in, we
13 would have been driven out of Sarajevo
14 and legitimacy?"
15 It was for that matter, wasn't it, Mr. Mandic, one of the matters
16 that you stood trial at the state court, of which charge you were
17 acquitted?
18 A. Yes, the Vraca, yes, that's true.
19 Q. And it was -- I think I'll leave it at that. Thank you very
20 much.
21 Now, I've nearly completed what I want to ask you about,
22 Mr. Mandic, but you say that the paramilitaries, and you've been shown
23 the speech made by Plavsic, were entirely the fault, really, of Biljana
24 Plavsic for bringing in Arkan?
25 A. No, no, no. I don't think it was her fault solely. But it was
Page 9810
1 her who invited these paramilitary formations to come over, and she said
2 at the Assembly meeting that she had sent a letter to various addresses
3 to Serb patriots inviting them including Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, who
4 was a leader of the White Eagles, and I don't know which other
5 paramilitary formation, to come over whilst Mico Stanisic put them to
6 prison. There were Yellow Wasps and others, and she felt offended by
7 that. That was a conflict between the chief of police and a member of
8 the Presidency, and it culminated at this Assembly session. And, you
9 know, just one sentence more and then you can proceed. You know what
10 Biljana Plavsic said and I quote, that: "It will take 6 million Serbs to
11 die for another 6 million of Serbs to live in freedom."
12 Q. You've said that before. Did Biljana Plavsic ever accuse you and
13 Mico Stanisic of involvement or knowledge of a man called Batko who was
14 operating in the Grabovica area?
15 A. Not me. I don't know.
16 Q. Have you read her book?
17 A. No. No, I wouldn't do that. Let me tell you, Ms. Korner,
18 Biljana Plavsic accused me of a variety of things. Some that were
19 appropriate and some that were completely inappropriate, and she did this
20 not only to me but to other people that she disliked for various reasons,
21 and all those things were untrue, and I don't have any intention of
22 reading the book written by Biljana Plavsic.
23 Q. So there was never an incident where she came in, you two were
24 with Dr. Karadzic, you and Mr. Stanisic, and she accused you of allowing
25 a paramilitary called Batko to commit killings in Sarajevo in Grabovica?
Page 9811
1 A. We were just talking about her bringing in the major -- the
2 paramilitary formations and about Stanisic putting them into prison. If
3 she did that, that would make us her opponents. She cannot accuse us of
4 the same thing that she did. She should make up her mind. I don't know
5 what you are talking exactly. You are talking about some paramilitary
6 formations. This woman was very personal, but I don't want to discuss
7 this.
8 Q. Right. I'm not going to discuss it further, given your answer,
9 Mr. Mandic. I just want to ask you this: You talked about the Yellow
10 Wasps. Did you ever attend a meeting in Sekovici, which is I think in
11 Zvornik municipality, together with Mico Stanisic where the
12 paramilitaries who were in Zvornik came up for discussion?
13 A. No, I don't remember. Sekovici is a separate municipality. It's
14 not part of Zvornik.
15 Q. Right. It's next to Zvornik then, is it, or near Zvornik?
16 A. Yes, between Vlasenica and Zvornik. I don't know, I don't
17 remember.
18 Q. Did you know somebody called Jovo Mijatovic?
19 A. Jovo Mijatovic, no, I don't recall. And who was he, what was his
20 position? Can you please help me refresh my memory.
21 Q. If you say you don't know him, then -- I think he was the SJB in
22 Zvornik. Ring any bells with you?
23 A. No. Mr. Spasovic was chief of police in Zvornik.
24 MR. ZECEVIC: I must say that I don't recall Mr. Jovo Mijatovic
25 being --
Page 9812
1 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry, I'm just - I'm correcting myself on this.
2 Q. In any event, the point that I want to make is this: Were you
3 ever before you moved on to be minister of justice at any meetings where
4 the problems in Zvornik of the paramilitaries were raised with you and
5 Mr. Stanisic?
6 A. No, I don't remember ever being in Zvornik to attend a meeting.
7 Q. Were you aware at any stage from any information you received
8 from Mr. Stanisic or anyone else that arms were being given to members of
9 the Yellow Wasps by the SJB in Pale?
10 A. Which period are we talking about, Ms. Korner?
11 Q. In July of 1992.
12 A. No, no, no. On what basis? On what grounds?
13 Q. I'm just asking if Mr. Stanisic ever said to you that there was a
14 report that the Yellow Wasps had been supplied with arms by the SJB?
15 A. No, no, I don't remember that.
16 Q. I correct myself. Mr. Mijatovic was the head of the SDS, not the
17 SJB chief. Does that ring any bells with you now?
18 A. No, I don't remember that man at all. I don't know who he is.
19 That was 18 years ago. Whether he was an MP or was he simply the mayor.
20 He probably must have been someone totally unimportant.
21 Q. All right. And, finally, Mr. Mandic, on this, you talked
22 about -- at length about Mr. Zepinic and the manner of his resignation
23 and who was there. And you say that his resignation had nothing to do
24 with his opposition to the split in the MUP?
25 A. He took part in this meeting when the special unit was divided.
Page 9813
1 That's what Zepinic told me. He was part of that.
2 Q. So as far as you say, he agreed to this? He agreed to the
3 division?
4 A. Well, at the time he was an unfortunate man who didn't know what
5 to do. We all knew what he had done, and on the other hand, he couldn't
6 do anything out of his own volition. He didn't have his own will at all.
7 Q. Please, Mr. Mandic, concentrate on the question. Is it your
8 assertion, I just want to make sure we all understand this, that he
9 agreed to the division of the special unit and of the MUP generally?
10 A. I claim that he agreed to the division of the special unit and
11 that he voluntarily accepted to be the first minister of the police in
12 December 1991 and member of the Security Council. If he didn't agree
13 with that, why didn't he resign in January 1992?
14 Q. Mr. Mandic, please, I'm asking you, you told us you were present
15 at this meeting. Please, first, is it your contention, it is your
16 evidence, as you said to Mr. Zecevic and others, that he agreed to the
17 split in the Special Police?
18 A. Well, he went there in order to split it pursuant to an order of
19 Delimustafic, the minister of police.
20 Q. Right. And he did not oppose the split in the MUP, is that what
21 you are saying, please, Mr. Mandic? Yes or no. It's is a simple
22 question.
23 A. No, no, he wasn't opposed to that.
24 Q. So what went on the argument at the meeting before he put his
25 resignation letter in had nothing to do with the split of the MUP?
Page 9814
1 A. It had to do only with Vitomir Zepinic.
2 Q. Now, Mr. Mandic, I want you, if you would be kind enough to watch
3 this time so there's no discussion about what you may or may not have
4 said, part of an interview that you gave to television in 1994.
5 MS. KORNER: And the number of that is 1318.15. And it's part of
6 the 92 ter package.
7 [Video-clip played]
8 MS. KORNER: Can we stop.
9 THE INTERPRETER: Could the interpreters have the indication of
10 where this part begins, please. Thank you.
11 MS. KORNER: Yes, it starts at 036.40 in the transcript in
12 English at page 6. I think we need to go back.
13 [Video-clip played]
14 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "There were great interruptions of
15 relations among people. You know, we are, and I consider myself like
16 that too, children of the system, who were learning about the brotherhood
17 and unity and life together since we were seven years old. I must say
18 that at the time, special unit was used to carry out searches in Serbian
19 villages, Serbian houses, Serbian settlements. I remember well, they
20 were in Pofalici, in that house from here, to search for weapons. They
21 also went to Bileca and Gacko, and that provoked great negative reaction
22 by all of us, officials of Serbian nationality in MUP, as well as Serbian
23 people. I couldn't watch anymore that my Karisik, and other members of
24 Special Forces go and search Serbian houses. We demanded ... we insisted
25 several times ... there was one meeting that Jusuf Pusina, Bruno Stojic
Page 9815
1 and me, participated in. It lasted for six hours and we had it with
2 members of special unit. I must say that Drazen Vikic, commander of
3 special unit, for whom I must say he is a very correct person, expert and
4 professional ... he even demanded that there is an order, signed by three
5 parties, in order to put special unit in movement. That means the right
6 of veto, meaning consensus that, if the special unit is sent somewhere,
7 it can't do anything without the agreement of all three officials of the
8 three nationalities. That was Bruno Stojic at that moment, Jusuf Pusina
9 and me, as the chiefs of administration. I remember well that, after
10 that big, tiring meeting, Jusuf Pusina told me: 'There's nowhere to go
11 ... Mandic, you succeeded in dividing the MUP, there is no more unified
12 MUP.' Because, that was in fact the way it was. If Jusuf Pusina, as the
13 head of police, I mean that department, can't put special unit in motion,
14 meaning Delimustafic, that means that unified MUP doesn't exist anymore.
15 And somehow, we carried it out. Unfortunately, however, Vito Zepinic,
16 meaning Alija Delimustafic, used all methods and lobbying people, called
17 on our best special unit members, Miodrag Repija, Maric, and Jevtic, I
18 believe, those are our best men, and promised them apartments, this and
19 that, and it came to slight dilemma in the psychic of those people. You
20 know, it is very hard to leave the system of one country. But, at that
21 moment, Milenko Karisik played a very important role, because he notified
22 me, the presidents Krajisnik and Karadzic, and with the great wisdom of
23 Krajisnik, we called Vito back to the Presidency, I mean, Assembly. We
24 took the special unit out, Karisik took them to Blazuj, and it came to
25 significant division of special unit, and it is often that after the
Page 9816
1 division of special unit everything else divides too."
2 JUDGE HARHOFF: Ms. Korner, how much time do you need? I have a
3 few questions to put to the witness as well.
4 MS. KORNER: Your Honour -- the transcript is in anyhow. Your
5 Honour, I can stop now.
6 Q. Mr. Mandic, what you said there, in fact, is not what you told
7 the Court, is it? It was clear, wasn't it, that there was no agreement
8 and you were being accused of being responsible for the split in the MUP?
9 A. Ms. Korner, what you heard me say now is the truth. This is the
10 confirmation that a three-party meeting took place and -- that a
11 tripartite meeting took place and the executives talked about the special
12 unit. I did somehow attribute in this interview more importance to
13 myself than was due credit to me, but the fact is that the special unit
14 was separated based on a political decision, and this is what I spoke
15 about in this interview and that was also confirmed in my trial by
16 Delimustafic.
17 Q. But what you say here -- leave aside your trial and what may or
18 may not have been said by Mr. Delimustafic for whatever reason, but what
19 you say here was, isn't it clearly, is that Mr. Zepinic was opposed to
20 all of this?
21 A. That's not true. This was an interview, and I tried to
22 over-emphasise my role. That is what I wanted to do, to over-emphasise
23 my role in the whole affair. What I'm telling you today is the truth.
24 Q. And the same interview, and we haven't got time to play it, you
25 gave also yourself a full account of what happened at Vraca, didn't you?
Page 9817
1 Which can be seen further on in the transcript.
2 A. That was a version to be presented to the press and to the
3 public. That is how I thought at the moment.
4 Q. When you say it was a version, do you mean you weren't telling
5 the truth?
6 A. No, these were my thoughts about everything that was happening at
7 the time.
8 Q. All right.
9 MS. KORNER: Yes, well, thank you, Mr. Mandic.
10 Questioned by the Court:
11 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Mandic, I realise that you must be confused
12 and tired by being pulled around, but I hope you can maintain your
13 concentration for another seven minutes before we adjourn.
14 I have three small questions to you. The first is in relation to
15 the intercept that Mr. Krgovic showed to you where you spoke with Branko
16 Kvesic, and about you --
17 MS. KORNER: I showed it to him, Your Honours. Mr. Krgovic
18 showed him the Grahovac one, I showed him the Kvesic one.
19 JUDGE HARHOFF: I apologise. Ms. Korner showed you that
20 intercept. And what struck me when I was reading through it, was the
21 fact that here you have Kvesic asking you for assistance to help out a
22 few Serbs who, for some reason, had been maintained in Manjaca; do you
23 recall that?
24 A. Yes, Your Honour. Branko Kvesic was in Mostar, and I was the
25 only one whom he knew.
Page 9818
1 JUDGE HARHOFF: But my question would be, if these camps were
2 under the jurisdiction of the army, why wouldn't he call the minister of
3 defence, and why did you agree to help him out rather than just referring
4 him to the competent authority?
5 A. Branko Kvesic worked in the police alongside with me, and I was
6 the only one he knew among the people he believed could help him. Of
7 course, I didn't refuse my friend this help that he was looking for. Of
8 course I went to inquire about these people. It is only natural the
9 minister of defence didn't know who he was and he would be reluctant to
10 communicate with him at all.
11 JUDGE HARHOFF: Very well. My next question to you relates to
12 the information that you gave us a couple of days ago, I think, now,
13 about the jurisdiction of the military courts as opposed to the
14 jurisdiction of the civilian courts over crimes committed in the
15 Republika Srpska in the summer of 1992. And the evidence you gave was
16 that the military courts had total jurisdiction over all of these camps
17 and indeed over all of the offences that could somehow be related to the
18 conflict. You also said that in that same period because of the fact
19 that the military court had taken over virtually everything, the civilian
20 courts had very little to do. I think you told us that in one of the
21 municipalities, only two cases were heard in eight months by the civilian
22 courts.
23 My question to you now in relation to this information is.
24 A. Yes, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE HARHOFF: How long did that situation last really, because
Page 9819
1 I think we have evidence, either by yourself, I can't remember, or by
2 someone else, to suggest that at a certain point some of the jurisdiction
3 was handed back to the civilian court in order to help out the situation
4 of an overloaded military judiciary, while the civilian judiciary had
5 nothing to do, so at one point there was a transfer of cases or another
6 distribution of the crimes that were heard by the courts.
7 So, first of all, is it correct that at some point the many cases
8 or some of the cases were transferred from the military courts to the
9 civilian courts, and secondly, when did that happen, if it happened?
10 A. Your Honours, the jurisdiction of the military court was never
11 transferred to the civilian courts. Although, only a month after my
12 appointment to the ministerial position, first in June, then in August, I
13 asked for that to happen. However, the ultimate refusal to transfer
14 jurisdiction from the military courts to the civilian courts happened at
15 the Assembly meeting when General Gver o said that that would be
16 unconstitutional. And in September I resigned as the minister of justice
17 and one of the reasons was precisely that, meaning that the civilian
18 judiciary was unable to perform its duties, whereas the military
19 judiciary didn't do their job.
20 So the army never allowed any transfer of competencies from the
21 military judiciary to the civilian one, although, I insisted on it a
22 number of times.
23 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you. My last question relates to the
24 scenarios that you had described throughout your testimony here before
25 us. Namely, that there was disagreement between the Presidency and at
Page 9820
1 least some members of the government about how to deal with the war
2 crimes and crimes against humanity. I'm particularly here referring to
3 the crimes that were committed in the camps. I'm referring to these
4 camps because at several other trials before this Tribunal, the fact has
5 been established that crimes were consistently committed throughout 1992,
6 and this Chamber has taken judicial notice of those -- of the facts that
7 those crimes were committed in the camps.
8 So my question to you now is, what you considered to do at the
9 time when you were given information that these things happened, you took
10 measures to try and stop them, and these measures failed. What did you
11 think yourself actually about whether or not you wanted to be a part of
12 this? I realised you resigned as a minister in September, but did you
13 discuss this with the others?
14 A. Your Honour, in the summer of 1992 we began receiving information
15 from the field about the camps and inhumane treatment inside those camps
16 concerning civilian non-Serb population. I testified here before saying
17 that there were commissions formed immediately on the request of the
18 government which toured throughout Republika Srpska in an attempt to
19 ascertain what was indeed happening. And they proposed measures in that
20 regard. Those measures were forwarded to the Supreme Command of the
21 army, to the Presidency, to the Assembly speaker, and the prime minister.
22 I think those documents make part of this case file as well. The
23 Ministry of Justice as a civilian body we could only propose measures.
24 In a state of an imminent threat of war, one could not meddle with the
25 competencies of the army, which I assert, was the sole body responsible
Page 9821
1 for the camps where non-Serbs were detained, whether civilians or
2 military conscripts and able-bodied men.
3 JUDGE HARHOFF: What was the -- I realise we have to stop now, so
4 maybe I should just leave it at that then. Thank you for your testimony.
5 JUDGE HALL
6 past week and your assistance to this Tribunal. You are now released as
7 a witness, and we wish you a safe journey back to your home, and more
8 especially, we trust that there's no repeat of the unfortunate incident
9 that affected your travel to the Tribunal.
10 We now take the adjournment until 9.00 on Monday morning in this
11 courtroom where we are scheduled to reconvene. I wish everyone a safe
12 weekend. Thank you.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
14 [The witness withdrew]
15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.50 p.m.
16 to be reconvened on Monday, the 10th day of May,
17 2010, at 9.00 a.m.
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