100622IT

Page 12009

1 JUDGE HALL: Before Mr. Dobbyn completes his

2 examination-in-chief, I remind the witness that he is still on his oath.

3 Yes, Mr. Dobbyn.

4 Sorry.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

6 JUDGE HALL: That's what comes when relying on one's memory

7 rather than looking at the notes. My apologise, Mr. Zecevic. Please

8 resume your cross-examination.

9 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you very much, Your Honour.

10 WITNESS: SULEJMAN CRNCALO [Resumed]

11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 Cross-examination by Mr. Zecevic: [Continued]

13 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, sir.

14 A. Good morning.

15 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] could the witness please be shown

16 1D03-4106.

17 Q. That is your statement from 1995, sir. We received it yesterday.

18 Let me go back to one question we discussed yesterday. Your

19 detention, namely; you call it arrest. Early on 3rd or 4th March 1992.

20 You told the Prosecutor or myself that completely blameless you

21 were taken to the police station and beaten up by this man Hrsum; and

22 when you were asked by the Prosecutor what kind of injuries you

23 sustained, you said this man Hrsum punched you in the face and beat you

24 with a club or truncheon on the back.

25 You remember that?

Page 12010

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Then the Prosecutor asked you if Malko Koroman had noticed the

3 injuries to your face and if he had taken any steps about that, and you

4 said, to the best of your knowledge, he didn't do anything?

5 A. He didn't do anything.

6 Q. In your statement -- may page 2 be shown to you, please.

7 In 1995, you stated that this man, Hrsum, who had interrogated

8 you, slapped you a couple of times - that means with an open hand, not a

9 fist - and hit you with a truncheon on the back. The discrepancy is

10 small, but it is important to know whether slaps in the face leave

11 visible traces. They don't. But if he punched you in the face, you

12 would have visible injuries.

13 It's important to know, therefore, which of the two it is.

14 MR. DOBBYN: Sorry, Your Honours. I'd just like to intervene at

15 this point. I understand that we rely on translations here, but the --

16 what's being put to the witness, according to the English translation at

17 least, is incorrect. The English translation we have reads that he was

18 punched in the face. There's no mention of slapping. And it doesn't say

19 anything being slapped or punched just a couple of times. But that's

20 what has been put to the witness at the moment. He has been told that

21 the statement contains those words.

22 So I wonder if we can clarify this. At some point, perhaps if

23 the B/C/S is read and then that's translated.

24 MR. ZECEVIC:

25 Q. [Interpretation] That's page 3 of your statement. It begins with

Page 12011

1 the word "Immediately," "Odmah."

2 MR. DOBBYN: Sorry, can you direct me to where on page 3 that is?

3 I'm looking at page 2.

4 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry.

5 MR. DOBBYN: It states on page 2:

6 "I explained to him who had sent me -- or, rather, no one had

7 sent me, and he started punching me in the face right away."

8 MR. ZECEVIC: That is correct. I'm sorry. It's page 2 of the

9 Serbian transcript as well.

10 Q. [Interpretation] You see, sir, on page 2, halfway down the page,

11 it begins with the word "Odmah."

12 There is a reference to the 3rd or 4th of March, and then it

13 says:

14 "He started immediately to question me as to who had sent me to

15 guard duty."

16 A. No, I said he started asking me, Who sent you and where are you

17 going.

18 Q. I'm not interested in that question, sir. In this statement you

19 said, at least that's how it was recorded in the statement before the

20 investigating judge, that Hrsum immediately started beating you with his

21 hands on the face.

22 A. It comes after that.

23 Q. With a hand means an open hand.

24 A. This is also with a hand. You can have it in a clenched fist or

25 an open hand.

Page 12012

1 Q. So you mean it was a punch?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did you complain to anyone about this mistreatment that you had

4 undergone on the 3rd or 4th of March, 1992?

5 A. Yes. I complained to my nearest and dearest and my neighbours.

6 I did not dare complain to the authorities, lest I be subjected to even

7 worse things.

8 Q. According to your statement, you were mistreated by a member of

9 the MUP, the police. Why did you not approach the Ministry of the

10 Interior to ask for an explanation or indemnity?

11 A. Well, if the policemen belonging to the Ministry of the Interior

12 arrested me in the way I described in my statement, whom was I supposed

13 to approach to ask for further protection? We did ask for protection,

14 and then we received a final answer, as I said yesterday. They did not

15 want to live with us Muslims in Pale.

16 Q. Sir, I'm begging you, please, to concentrate and answer my

17 question.

18 Pale is 20 kilometres away from Sarajevo?

19 A. 20-something.

20 Q. The Ministry of the Interior is in Sarajevo. Why did you not

21 approach the Ministry of the Interior to register that incident, if

22 nobody else did that?

23 A. Those were police administrations in Pale and in Sarajevo.

24 Whatever I'm supposed to complain about, I was supposed to do it in my

25 own police station in my place of residence.

Page 12013

1 Q. But if the policemen from that police station in your place of

2 residence mistreated you, you should have gone to the Ministry of the

3 Interior, and the minister was Alija Delimustafic.

4 A. You are now going into politics, and these politics had led to

5 the war in the first place, and what happened, happened.

6 Q. Did you know that the minister of the interior of the Socialist

7 Republic Bosnia-Herzegovina at the time, on 3rd and 4th of March, 1992,

8 was Mr. Alija Delimustafic; yes or no?

9 A. Yes, I did know.

10 Q. And you still did not report the incident?

11 A. No, I did not.

12 JUDGE HARHOFF: Is it your position that the witness was not

13 subjected to mistreat upon his arrest?

14 MR. ZECEVIC: No, that is not my position. I'm just -- the point

15 of the question was Mr. Dobbyn's question and confirmation by this

16 witness that Mr. Malko Koroman didn't act upon it, upon allegedly seeing

17 his bruises or knowing that he has been maltreated. And that is why I'm

18 exploring with the witness whether he took the -- took any -- any steps

19 to report that to the Ministry of Interior in March 1992, and he said he

20 didn't.

21 JUDGE HARHOFF: And what would the purpose be of exploring

22 whether the witness, the victim himself, took any steps to report the

23 mistreatment to the minister?

24 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, Your Honours, he -- if -- if the immediate

25 superior in the police station didn't took [sic] appropriate steps, he

Page 12014

1 had the opportunity to go up and report to the ministry, and the ministry

2 should -- would, I assume, take any -- some measures against the --

3 against the -- the chief of the police station.

4 JUDGE HARHOFF: Exactly. But the fact remains that he was

5 mistreated, and so what more is there to --

6 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes. But, Your Honours, if he didn't, then

7 presumably he believed that -- that he has done something wrong and maybe

8 he wasn't mistreated in a way he is representing it. Because if he was,

9 he would have probably taken this matter to the -- to the ministry. That

10 is our position.

11 JUDGE HARHOFF: And hence my original question: Whether you're

12 disputing the fact that the witness was in fact mistreated.

13 MR. ZECEVIC: I don't dispute that he was mistreated. I don't

14 have the reason to dispute that.

15 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, in your evidence yesterday you claimed that

16 you had been informed that late Hrvo Fehim had committed suicide, but you

17 did not believe it because there were no traces of that.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You remember that?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And then you said the police provided security at the funeral so

22 you couldn't see the body.

23 A. I didn't count them then, but I think there were nine or ten

24 armed policemen escorting the funeral ceremony. And when we approached

25 to take the coffin down, they trained weapons at us.

Page 12015

1 We did not stop. We took up the coffin. We didn't even expect

2 them to shoot. But why they took down their weapons and trained them at

3 us, I don't know. Anyway, we took the coffin towards the cemetery.

4 Q. But you said yesterday the body was not revealed.

5 A. I meant it was not unbuttoned. The clothes were not unbuttoned,

6 so we couldn't see the body.

7 Q. If you didn't do that, then how could you see if there were any

8 traces?

9 A. Well, you can see the neck, anyway.

10 Q. Very well. How do you know, then - and that's what you said to

11 the Prosecutor on page 2121 of yesterday's transcript -- sorry,

12 page 21.1 - you said there was no investigation into the death of

13 Hrvo Fehim. How do you know that?

14 A. There was no investigation into his death, into the death of

15 Nasko Smaic, Izet Jasarevic, Alija Jusufovic. In none of these cases had

16 there been an investigation into their killing, and they were all killed

17 in the prison.

18 Q. Which prison do you mean?

19 A. The one in the cinema hall next to the police station.

20 Q. How do you know there had been no investigation? If they were

21 killed in the prison and you were not in the prison, how do you know that

22 there had been no inquiry?

23 A. It couldn't have happened without us hearing about it. The

24 investigators would have come to the house of the dead people or the

25 neighbouring houses. That would have been logical.

Page 12016

1 Q. In that case, that's a logic I don't understand.

2 You were talking about that cinema hall. Was there any other

3 prison in the territory of Pale that you know of?

4 A. I'll tell you. As far as I know, every police station in the

5 world must have premises for detention on the same premises. In the same

6 way, the station of Pale had one. I had never been to such a room myself

7 because I was held in the office and in the hallway next to it. Those

8 people had been detained in the cinema hall. I know that the cinema hall

9 was a place where they took people who had been arrested and people were

10 held there. I don't know of any other prison.

11 Q. But in the same way you know about the cinema hall, would you

12 have known about other prisons that existed while you were in Pale.

13 A. I don't know of any other.

14 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

15 tender this statement the witness gave in 1995. He discussed it

16 yesterday and today, and he stands by that statement. So if there is no

17 objection, I would like to tender it before I show him the next document.

18 [Trial Chamber confers]

19 JUDGE HARHOFF: Do you have the 65 ter number?

20 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] 1D03 -- just a moment.

21 1D03-4106.

22 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.

23 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1D329, Your Honours.

24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zecevic, am I to understand from your last

25 line of questions that you're challenging adjudicated facts --

Page 12017

1 MR. ZECEVIC: That is correct.

2 JUDGE DELVOIE: -- 1312 and --

3 MR. ZECEVIC: 1311 and 1314. I'm persuing that line now --

4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Thank you.

5 MR. ZECEVIC: I want to show the witness another --

6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.

7 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry.

8 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

9 JUDGE HALL: Yes, Mr. Zecevic, please continue.

10 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you very much.

11 [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown P990.

12 Q. Sir, I'm about to show you the aerial photograph again, the

13 photograph of the centre of Pale, and I will ask you to comment when I

14 ask you a question.

15 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16 Q. Tell me, sir, can you -- you remember that yesterday you marked

17 the SJB yesterday and the cinema hall, and the place from which -- or,

18 rather, where allegedly Karadzic gave his speech and the buses. You

19 marked that on the photograph yesterday; remember?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Tell me, do you remember where the sports centre of Pale is?

22 A. Well, we can see the sports ground.

23 Q. But was there a gymnasium of sorts?

24 A. Yes, as part of the school.

25 Q. Can we see it in this photograph?

Page 12018

1 A. The elementary school? I can't see the elementary school in this

2 photograph.

3 Q. Tell me -- and the cultural centre?

4 A. Well, here it is.

5 Q. What's -- what is this cultural centre? Can you please mark its

6 location. You will be given a pen by the usher. But I see that you know

7 what to do anyway.

8 A. [Marks]

9 Q. Please place a number 1 there.

10 A. [Marks]

11 Q. So this is the cultural centre.

12 And that is the place where you said yesterday Karadzic gave his

13 speech when you heard him?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Is this it?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. So, in this photograph, sir, we cannot see the gymnasium that

18 belonged to the school. I believe it is to the right.

19 A. Yes, it is.

20 Q. And what was there in this cultural centre in 1992?

21 A. In early 1992, the Srna TV moved in there, but also the

22 Government of the RS. How long they stayed there, I don't know. When I

23 left, they were still there. Later, they built government facilities at

24 Korane, and they built one-storey buildings there.

25 Q. So in this culture centre which you marked with the number 1

Page 12019

1 where you say Karadzic gave his speech, that was the headquarters of the

2 Srna News Agency of the RS and the seat of government while you were

3 there?

4 A. There were antennas, and I thought it could be TV. But those may

5 have been antennas for government communications or something.

6 Q. All right. But certainly you are sure that there was no prison

7 in that culture centre.

8 A. No, there wasn't.

9 Q. And the same goes for the gymnasium, I suppose. You would have

10 known if there had been a prison there.

11 A. I know that not far from the school, behind it, there was a

12 gymnasium for the elementary school pupils, but I don't know of a prison

13 there.

14 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we mark this document to be

15 tendered.

16 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.

17 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1D330, Your Honours.

18 [Trial Chamber confers]

19 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, I understand your concerns, but there

20 are different markings on the previous document because there's four

21 other issues -- or -- or buildings marked on that -- on that particular

22 document. And this document we will use to challenge

23 the Adjudicated Fact 1314. That is the purpose of -- of this exhibit.

24 JUDGE HARHOFF: But the same building is marked on two different

25 pictures. It would seem to me that one photo would be enough, showing

Page 12020

1 where the building is.

2 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, I -- I certainly cannot disagree with

3 Your Honours on that. It's ...

4 JUDGE HARHOFF: Let's move on.

5 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you.

6 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, let me ask you one thing. Do you know

7 where Donja Vinca in the Pale municipality is?

8 A. You mean the village?

9 Q. Yes, the village. How far is it from Pale, from the place where

10 you lived?

11 A. Just a minute. 35 kilometres.

12 Q. Do you know that the village was shelled somewhere in the summer

13 of 1992?

14 A. That's possible. I didn't know that. But do you know what kind

15 of village it is, who lives there?

16 Q. I don't.

17 A. Muslims.

18 Q. Very well. So you have no information about it.

19 Tell me, yesterday in your evidence you mentioned trucks with

20 people from Bratunac that you saw, and you marked them on -- in that

21 photograph, and you spoke to the drivers?

22 A. No, I didn't speak to any one of those people.

23 Q. At any rate, you know that the trucks with those unfortunate

24 people were brought to Pale. You know that. And you were present?

25 A. I know that, and I heard -- or I witnessed that by chance, and I

Page 12021

1 later on told myself, Why on earth was I there at all?

2 Q. You know that those people spent barely two days in Pale and they

3 moved on to the territory controlled by the Muslims. Do you know that?

4 A. No, I don't. I don't know what happened with these people later.

5 Q. Thank you. I apologise. Tell me, yesterday during the

6 examination-in-chief, there was a question about the Crisis Staff and the

7 participation of Muslims in the activities of the Crisis Staff of Pale.

8 And you said, I believe, that you knew nothing about that; namely, of the

9 presence of any one Muslim in the Crisis Staff.

10 A. That is correct. And it wasn't possible for any Muslims be to a

11 member of the Crisis Staff.

12 Q. Do you know Asim Zec?

13 A. Yes, I do.

14 Q. Do you know that Asim Zec was president of the Crisis Staff of

15 Vrace?

16 A. There was never a Crisis Staff in Vrace.

17 Q. Do you know the late Alija Prazina, from Hrenovica?

18 A. I heard the name, but I don't know the man.

19 Q. Have you heard of him being the president of the Crisis Staff of

20 Hrenovica?

21 A. No, I haven't heard of that.

22 Q. You know who Ahmet Palo is?

23 A. I do.

24 Q. Ahmet Palo was president of the SDA of Pale and the

25 vice-president of the municipality, correct, in 1992?

Page 12022

1 A. Yes, early on. When the parties sort of established municipal

2 government.

3 Q. But, in 1992, he was vice-president of the municipality.

4 A. Yes. But he was really a puppet.

5 Q. But he was president of the SDA committee in Pale.

6 A. Well, he was close to that party. But let me tell you, I wasn't

7 a member of the SDA. I wasn't really familiar with the positions, but --

8 but I saw that they were all carried off by the current.

9 Q. You spoke about the campaign of collecting weapons in Hrenovica.

10 That was in mid-May 1992?

11 A. I cannot confirm the day, but it was in May. I believe it was in

12 the first half. I may have made a mistake mentioning the date because I

13 can't remember the exact date.

14 Q. Very well. It's a fact that the patrol in which there were two

15 police officers -- or, rather, where two police officers were killed and

16 five injured, that this incident happened immediately before that

17 campaign or during that operation; correct?

18 A. The police officers came to harm during that operation, but, sir,

19 that wasn't a patrol that collected weapons. That was a military

20 operation. You may have the documents about it. And the documents read:

21 military operation. Military operations are not conducted for collecting

22 weapons. Everybody knows what military operations are for.

23 Q. And after that operation, you said that Mr. Malko Koroman with

24 tears in his eyes appeared on TV and said that the war had come to Pale,

25 and he appealed to non-Serbs to return their weapons; correct?

Page 12023

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Tell me about these persons we mentioned a short while ago:

3 Nasko Smaic, then Jasarevic, of who you said that they were killed in

4 prison. Do you know if they were arrested during that operation or on

5 some other occasion?

6 A. They didn't live in Hrenovica. They lived in the urban part of

7 Pale municipality.

8 Q. How do you know, sir, that they were killed in prison? Where did

9 you get that information?

10 A. I went to the funerals. Didn't I say yesterday that volunteers

11 were sought to carry out the body of Fehim Hrvo from the cinema hall. I

12 said that when I sat on the bus I saw that there was -- they were digging

13 a pit in the graveyard. And then there was Nezir and Alija Jusufovic and

14 Nasko Smaic. Only Nasko Smaic was buried at Majdani, not in the centre

15 part of Pale.

16 Q. Sir, these are criminal proceedings, so we must be very clear.

17 If I understood you correctly, you were present at the funeral of

18 Fehim Hrvo?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. As for this man Jasarevic, you saw that from the bus.

21 A. Yes, from the bus.

22 Q. That he was being buried?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And Nasko Smaic, you only heard of him. You weren't present and

25 didn't see?

Page 12024

1 A. Yes. On that day, I looked from my house. The body was being

2 transported, and five or six people were going toward the cemetery. And

3 I couldn't go because I didn't dare move about.

4 Q. But how did you get the information that they were killed in

5 prison?

6 A. Nasko Smaic was first taken to prison and then released. On the

7 same day, they took him back to prison, though, and he didn't come out of

8 it alive.

9 Q. And that's what you heard?

10 A. Yes, I heard as much. But it happened.

11 Q. You also heard about this Jasarevic. You weren't in prison?

12 A. No, I wasn't, but I saw the man being buried. And he was -- he

13 had been taken to prison because he had destroyed his shop. He didn't

14 want to give it up to anyone else, and that's why he was taken to prison

15 and killed there.

16 Q. Very well.

17 A. And his shop was at Korane.

18 Q. Sir, you say that you couldn't leave your house and you saw

19 that -- these five or six people on -- in the funeral party. How could

20 they leave their house?

21 A. I didn't dare leave my house and move -- I didn't say I couldn't

22 move about Pale. I saw those people from Bratunac. How could I have

23 seen them otherwise? I didn't lock myself up in the house. You can't

24 put that to me.

25 Q. So you moved about Pale?

Page 12025

1 A. Yes. Yes, since I saw these things. But I couldn't leave my --

2 the boundaries of my own local commune. I couldn't go to another local

3 commune.

4 Q. And what was your local commune?

5 A. Pale.

6 Q. If you were not able to go to other local communes, then how did

7 you come to testify that in the local commune of Korane the sale of goods

8 to Muslim was forbidden?

9 A. The people next door had a flat in Korane. He built a house next

10 to mine. And when his children found it too hard to live up there, they

11 moved in with the father. They said that they read those signs on shops

12 and ran away to their father's house.

13 Q. So you didn't see that; you just heard of that?

14 A. These people saw it with my -- with their own eyes. It's as good

15 as myself seeing it.

16 Q. Very well.

17 If you can remember, when did Nikola Koljevic come to that

18 meeting with the representatives of the Muslim community and allegedly

19 said that the Serbs did not wish to live with you Muslims? When was

20 that?

21 A. You know, even if I noted down the dates and kept a diary, it's

22 still not certain that I would have remembered the correct date.

23 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Zecevic, I would remind you that you have

24 exhausted the hour that you had requested.

25 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, Your Honours, I made the -- obviously not a

Page 12026

1 very good estimation, and I'm having problems with the witness explaining

2 the --

3 JUDGE HALL: How much time -- how much more time do you --

4 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, I assume one hour more I would need.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm really sorry, but ... I will try my best to

7 shorten it as much as possible.

8 JUDGE HALL: Yes.

9 MR. ZECEVIC:

10 Q. [Interpretation] Roughly, please. If you can't remember, you

11 can't remember. We'll move on.

12 A. It was in the month of June, but which date I can't tell you.

13 Q. So June 1992?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Very well. On June 4, after this operation in Hrenovica when

16 some policemen were killed, others were wounded in mid-May, on the

17 4th of June, 1992, more than 60 Serb soldiers were killed in an ambush at

18 Zlovrh on the road to Zepa; do you remember that?

19 A. You go on about dates, and I told you a moment ago that I had

20 never thought I would have to talk about these things before such an

21 august international Court.

22 Zlovrh I know, is a place name; but that battle was not at

23 Zlovrh, and it was not for the capture of Zlovrh. I just happened to

24 see, when I was going to attend a funeral.

25 Q. I appreciate your effort to explain, but I'm just asking you if

Page 12027

1 you know that sometime in the beginning of June about 60 Serb soldiers

2 were killed.

3 A. I don't know the exact number. I know a lot of them were killed.

4 Q. It is a fact that most of these people were from Pale; they were

5 citizens of Pale municipality?

6 A. Yes, many of them were.

7 Q. And you testified that Karadzic had come to attend that funeral.

8 A. What I was talking about was not a funeral. It was some sort of

9 rally or a meeting or whatever you want to call it. Funerals take place

10 at cemeteries. I did not attend.

11 Q. It was a memorial service of some sort?

12 A. All right.

13 Q. And you told us Karadzic came to that funeral, and he first

14 called for tensions to be diffused, and those tensions ran high, I

15 suppose?

16 A. No. Karadzic was not calling for things to calm down. He was

17 trying to ease the pain of the families. And I have to add: There was

18 one woman who, in all likelihood, calmed those people down who lost their

19 family members and -- by saying, These Muslims here are absolutely not to

20 blame that my son got killed. Why were they going to Zepa? What for?

21 I don't know that woman. I know her son was killed.

22 Q. You will agree with me that the tension was very high; the

23 situation was very tense?

24 A. It was catastrophic.

25 Q. And you say that on that occasion, in that catastrophic

Page 12028

1 situation, as you call it, that was very tense, Karadzic said that by

2 attacks Muslim houses, you protect Serb ones?

3 A. He did.

4 Q. Doesn't it sound illogical to you that after such a statement

5 made by Radovan Karadzic, nobody set out to attack Muslim houses that

6 very moment at Pale? In such a situation that was, as you said,

7 catastrophic, the tensions ran high, many people had lost their children,

8 40 of them, and then he comes out with a statement like that. Wouldn't

9 the crowd run wild and set out to destroy Muslim houses?

10 A. I'll tell you, and you will understand doing your job you must

11 have insight into other municipalities of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and I

12 have to tell you this --

13 Q. Sir, please, leave alone other municipalities. We are talking

14 about Pale. You said you heard Karadzic say these things. It's a fact

15 that not a single Muslim house was attacked on that day.

16 I'm asking you: Is it logical that this didn't happen, after

17 these words by Karadzic?

18 A. I stand by what I said. Karadzic did say that. Now, why weren't

19 we attacked? I really cannot tell you why. I don't have the answer.

20 Q. In your statement you gave before the investigating judge in

21 Sarajevo in 1995, you made no mention of the fact that Karadzic had

22 visited and made such a speech. And, still, it must have been etched in

23 your memory, since you remember it to date. And you didn't mention it in

24 your evidence in the Krajisnik case either. It's for the first time this

25 year, in April, at the trial of Radovan Karadzic that you told this

Page 12029

1 story, that Karadzic had come to the funeral and stated what he stated.

2 A. Are you saying I'm not telling the truth?

3 Q. It's not up to me to evaluate your evidence. I'm just asking you

4 for an explanation. How is it possible that you did not mention it in

5 1995 or in 2004 or at the Krajisnik trial, but you mention it for the

6 first time almost 20 years later, this April, testifying in the Karadzic

7 trial?

8 A. It's not the first time. Karadzic uttered these same words in

9 other places as well. If you have an opportunity to look at video

10 footage, you will hear Karadzic saying these very same words in other

11 places.

12 Q. Are you trying to say that Karadzic said the same thing in other

13 municipalities? And then you inferred that he must have said it at Pale

14 as well.

15 A. No, that's not what I'm trying to say. I'm telling you what I

16 heard.

17 Q. But you still haven't answered how it is possible that you

18 mention this only 20 years later for the first time. And it's rather

19 important, isn't it? That's what you haven't answered.

20 MR. DOBBYN: Your Honours, I'd like to intervene at this point

21 because it's being put to the witness that he's never mentioned this

22 before. And, in fact, it is referred to in his testimony in Krajisnik.

23 I point to transcript page 5342 where he talks about Mr. Karadzic

24 giving a speech to the population outside the TV building in Pale. It's

25 true that he doesn't give the content of that speech in that part of the

Page 12030

1 transcript. He wasn't asked about the content of the speech, but he

2 certainly refers to Mr. Karadzic being there and giving a speech.

3 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, Your Honours, it's the contents we are

4 talking about. It's not -- that's the whole issue. What Karadzic says

5 is the -- is the issue here.

6 MR. DOBBYN: Your Honours, that may be the issue, but that's what

7 should be put to the witness, about the content. What's being put to him

8 is that he's never mentioned any such speech at all.

9 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] All right.

10 Q. So in 1995 you did not mention it at all, that Karadzic had been

11 to Pale; and in Krajisnik you mentioned that he had visited, you didn't

12 say what he said; and only in April 2010, you testified in Karadzic, and

13 here, yesterday, saying that he made that statement.

14 I'm asking you to explain how it is possible that 18 years later

15 you mention this for the first time.

16 A. I did not need to talk about that when I testified against

17 Krajisnik, because Krajisnik and Karadzic are not the same.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 MR. ZECEVIC: I see the time, Your Honours.

20 JUDGE HALL: Yes. I suppose, although we started a half-hour

21 late, it would be -- it would be easier to stick to the set times,

22 because I'm pretty sure that the accused would have been waiting in court

23 during the break in any event.

24 So we'll take the adjournment now.

25 MR. ZECEVIC: Okay.

Page 12031

1 [The witness stands down]

2 --- Recess taken at 10.26 a.m.

3 --- On resuming at 10.54 a.m.

4 [The witness takes the stand]

5 MR. ZECEVIC: May I continue, Your Honours?

6 JUDGE HALL: Yes, please.

7 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Sir, it is a fact, isn't it, that after these 40 soldiers were

9 killed at Zepa, shortly after that, 14 Serb soldiers were killed at

10 Mount Trebevic?

11 A. Possibly, but I don't remember.

12 Q. In your evidence yesterday, you spoke about the Red Berets from

13 Knin. The rumour was they were in Pale, but you've never seen them;

14 correct?

15 A. I heard about the Red Berets for the first time from the chief of

16 police, Malko Koroman. Before that, I didn't even know they were in

17 Pale. But I saw them on the 2nd of July, when I set out in the convoy,

18 near the Panorama Hotel.

19 Q. You testified here that Malko Koroman informed you they were

20 there, in Pale, and that, allegedly, he was not able to guarantee that

21 you would be safe from them. And he didn't say what they had come to do,

22 but, based on what you had seen on TV, you knew that they had burned down

23 houses and killed people in Gospic, and you inferred what they were

24 capable of doing.

25 A. Yes. Malko Koroman said the Red Berets had come from Knin to do

Page 12032

1 a job. He didn't specify what job. But what else could they do other

2 than what they had done in Knin? They had come to Pale from Knin.

3 Q. But the point is that you saw on TV the crimes they had committed

4 in Gospic and Knin.

5 A. Yes, I did.

6 Q. I think you mixed things up. Knin and Gospic are almost

7 ethnically pure settlements in Croatia, at least they were; correct?

8 A. If they were ethnically pure, these two towns, then why were

9 those dead bodies strewn in the streets, and why were all those buildings

10 burned?

11 Q. That's what I'm trying to tell you. There was no killing or

12 burning in Knin or Gospic because they were -- they were almost

13 100 per cent Serb towns, and these things are you talking about you must

14 be confusing either with a different period or different towns.

15 A. You are mixed up, not I. I know what I saw on television. I

16 know what the anchor-man on television was showing, was saying, while the

17 footage of these two towns was shown.

18 Q. It is a fact, isn't it, that the situation in Pale, because of

19 the refugees, the war all around, and the killing of these soldiers and

20 policemen, was extremely tense?

21 A. Yes. For the Muslims, it was intolerable psychologically.

22 Q. That is why you, representatives of the Muslim community, sought

23 meetings and guarantees of your safety?

24 A. We didn't ask for that just after the killing of those people.

25 We had begged the chief of police and the president of the municipality

Page 12033

1 many times before to find a way to go on living together in Pale.

2 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness be shown P1453.

3 Q. Yesterday the Prosecutor showed you this document. It's a letter

4 sent by the group of citizens of the local communes of Pale and Korane,

5 dated 9 April 1992.

6 It is their proposal, the proposal of these citizens of Muslim

7 ethnicity, to deal with the newly created situation concerning the

8 arrests of unarmed members of the Muslim community. And then there's a

9 list of proposals.

10 Do you remember commenting this document yesterday with the

11 Prosecutor?

12 A. Yes, I do.

13 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see page 2.

14 Q. You can see item 10 which reads -- and it's a proposal that the

15 Muslim submit to the Crisis Staff. That persons and families who do not

16 feel safe in the territory of Pale municipality be allowed to leave the

17 area without hindrance and in an organised manner.

18 In parentheses there are the reasons for that proposal.

19 Can you see it?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. That is, as soon as 9 April, there was a proposal to make it

22 possible for the Muslims to leave Pale without hindrance and safely, and

23 organised -- in an organised manner.

24 A. You're reading these documents, and you have your own position

25 with regard to them. But when the first convoy left, I was a member of

Page 12034

1 that delegation when we asked the president of the municipality,

2 Starcevic, why those people had left, and he said they had broken the

3 law. But what had they done? What kind of offence have they committed

4 for you to transport them away? And he answered, It will -- it will

5 be -- it will be known. And I said, But the same will be said of us once

6 we leave, that we have broken the law.

7 And that was his comment.

8 Q. Speaking of that first convoy, which time-period are you relating

9 to? Wasn't that late June?

10 A. You are really annoying me with these dates. In a situation like

11 that, you are doing whatever you can to save your families and your

12 nearest and dearest. And you are now -- you now want me to give you an

13 exact date. I really can't do that.

14 Q. But you will agree with me when I say that certainly that first

15 convoy did not leave before the 9th of April, 1992; correct?

16 A. I don't think it did.

17 Q. Very well.

18 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

19 P1454.

20 Q. This document, too, was shown to you by the Prosecutor yesterday.

21 I believe you said you had never seen this one.

22 This is the reply of the Crisis Staff to this previous document

23 dated 9 April, and it is dated 11 April, 1992.

24 It is addressed to the group of Muslim citizens. And under 1 we

25 can see there is no reason for the Muslim population to panic and move

Page 12035

1 out, and it also says that the Serbian municipality of Pale shall offer

2 full protection to all citizens, whatever their ethnicity or religion.

3 So this was in April. And it's a reply to the previous document.

4 As far as I remember, you are not familiar with this document. You have

5 never seen it.

6 A. You mean this one that we see?

7 Q. Yes.

8 A. No, I haven't seen it.

9 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Finally, can we show the witness

10 65 ter 2460.

11 Q. It's a document of the Crisis Staff, that is, the

12 Pale municipality. It's signed by Radislav Starcevic.

13 You said that Starcevic was president of the municipality; right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now we see his first name, Radislav. Does this help you?

16 A. Well, probably that's what was his name.

17 Q. This document deals with the change of residence of Muslim and

18 Croatian citizens. Article 1 reads:

19 "Citizens of Muslim and Croatian ethnicity who wish to change

20 their residence can exercise that right with the agreement of and

21 permission from ..." et cetera.

22 It's a fact that under the laws of the former Yugoslavia if you

23 change your place of residence you were obliged to go to the SJB of the

24 place you're leaving and let them know that you're leaving and upon

25 arriving to your new place of residence you had to register with the SJB

Page 12036

1 there. Do you remember?

2 A. Yes. When you change your residence, yes.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 A. But we who were transported to Sarajevo never went to the

5 Pale Police Administration to let them know we're leaving. We were only

6 put on buses, and we didn't know what would happen until we reached our

7 destination. Nobody, in fact, went to the SJB to let them know we're

8 leaving.

9 Q. You see that it says in Article 2 that:

10 "The change of residence will be done in an organised manner.

11 Citizens will come to the public security station and personally

12 apply ..."

13 A. No citizen applied for change of residence.

14 Q. Very well. That's what you know?

15 A. That's what I know. I didn't do it, and nobody else do it from

16 Pale -- did it from Pale.

17 Q. Tell me, isn't the logic of an inter-ethnic conflict that members

18 of a certain ethnic group stick together. Do you agree?

19 A. First of all, I don't agree with conflicts. If we Muslims has

20 wanted conflict, we wouldn't have sought co-existence, and we wouldn't

21 have asked the president of the municipality and the chief of the police

22 to bring us someone from the top ranks of government to make a

23 co-existence possible. And as far as conflict is concerned, at least in

24 my municipality, there was no one Muslim who was in favour of conflict.

25 Q. But your municipality is near Sarajevo, which is much bigger,

Page 12037

1 with a much greater population. And you will agree with me that it is

2 possible that the situation in Sarajevo also reflected on Pale?

3 A. The municipality of Pale used to be a suburban municipality of

4 Sarajevo; and these reflections you're mentioning, even know, we can see

5 where the front line of the Serbs around Sarajevo was.

6 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat his last

7 sentence.

8 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. I know. But you will agree with me when I say that many Serbs

10 left Sarajevo?

11 A. Yes, that's true.

12 Q. Do you think that they left voluntarily? I mean, Sarajevo.

13 A. 90 per cent of them did.

14 Q. Tell me, since Pale is a suburban municipality, no doubt

15 real estate in Sarajevo is more valuable than in Pale.

16 A. But there was real estate, valuable real estate in Pale too.

17 Q. But, generally speaking, in a city it's always more expensive

18 than in the suburbs?

19 A. You probably don't know Sarajevo. In Sarajevo, too, there are

20 decrepit buildings, but there are also new buildings. So you can't

21 compare these two.

22 Q. You exchanged your house in Pale, that is, the house of --

23 belonging to you and your brother, with a woman who traded in her house

24 at Pofalici, which is in Sarajevo; right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 12038

1 Q. Yesterday you mentioned that some people swapped houses but

2 others didn't. They were unable to find persons to swap houses with;

3 correct?

4 A. I don't believe that I commented that much on this yesterday. I

5 only said that whoever didn't swap their house, the position of the

6 police was that they had to bring the keys to the police station.

7 Whether or not anybody did that, I don't know.

8 Q. Very well. Tell me, how did you meet that woman?

9 A. She came to my door-step.

10 Q. And when she did, she asked you, Do you want to swap houses with

11 me? Is that so?

12 A. She asked my brother. I had my opinion, but my late brother was

13 elder, so I didn't want to come forward. So, actually, my brother did it

14 all. But I didn't oppose it because he was my elder brother.

15 Q. So your late brother basically ran this whole business about this

16 exchange?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And when you were leaving in July -- I believe you said on

19 2nd of July?

20 A. Yes, the 2nd.

21 Q. You gave that woman your keys, and I suppose that she gave you

22 the keys to their -- to her house in Pofalici; right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. We saw yesterday - I don't have to show you - the contract that

25 you signed then and had it certified by the municipality; right?

Page 12039

1 A. Yes. But I have to comment again what I was saying yesterday.

2 What kind of exchange is that? If I must swap one property for another

3 and without having seen the other, and what -- what I found there is a

4 house that was half-destroyed by an artillery shell. And, now, you tell

5 me whether that was voluntary or involuntary. And I never moved into

6 that house because it was -- it was demolished.

7 Q. But, sir, it's a fact that - and you confirmed a minute ago that

8 your late brother spoke with her - the house at Pofalici, if it had not

9 been destroyed by an artillery shell, you would have moved into that

10 house at Pofalici temporarily?

11 A. Well, I would have had to. What else could I have done?

12 Q. In the contract, which you signed with your own hand and your

13 late brother too, and the other party, this Dragica Subotic from

14 Pofalici, says that the parties to the agreement engaged to guard and

15 keep the house for temporary -- for a period of time until the cessation

16 of hostilities?

17 A. Well, let me tell you: Yes, I did sign that contract, and so did

18 my late brother and Dragica Subotic. But in that situation, in the war,

19 I didn't believe that I would ever be in the position to claim my house

20 back. I'm now describing to you the situation as it was then. And I

21 didn't really read all the provisions of the contract. This is my answer

22 to your question.

23 Q. But it's a fact that, eventually, that that's what really

24 happened. You got your property back. And I suppose that Dragisa got

25 back her destroyed house at Pofalici.

Page 12040

1 A. Yes. Thank God everybody got back their property. And the state

2 it was after the war, let me not comment on that.

3 Q. Tell me, sir, when you were leaving your house on the

4 2nd of July, Dragisa was present, wasn't she?

5 A. Yes, she was.

6 Q. Did Dragisa prevent you from taking out anything from your house?

7 A. No, she didn't. But what could I have taken but what I was able

8 to carry with my two hands? And where should I put it? I only grabbed

9 the most important things, a little clothing, and off you go.

10 Q. It's a fact, sir, isn't it, that you left on a convoy, on buses,

11 in an organised manner, precisely for reasons of safety so as not to

12 travel in private automobiles because it was war; right?

13 A. Most probably they were taking care of our safety, and we were

14 escorted by the police all the way, at least the convoy on which I left.

15 I cannot speak about the others, but I suppose that the others were also

16 escorted by the police.

17 Q. When you say "escorted by the police," that means a police

18 vehicle went ahead of and behind the convoy accompanying the convoy;

19 right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And the police saw you off to the check-point held by Muslim

22 forces?

23 A. That's not the way it was.

24 Q. How was it, then?

25 A. They took us to the end of their combat lines, and then we had to

Page 12041

1 cross the no man's land on foot.

2 [Defence counsel confer]

3 Q. We don't have the answer you gave on page 33, line 22. I said:

4 When you say the police escorted the convoy, that means that the

5 police vehicle went ahead of the convoy and another police vehicle was

6 behind the convoy?

7 And I think you answered in the affirmative.

8 A. Yes, I did.

9 Q. It's a fact that the police provided security to the convoy, for

10 safety reasons?

11 A. For what reason the police escorted us, I cannot say, but they

12 did escort us.

13 Q. Very well. Sir, are you aware that some Muslims left Pale out of

14 fear over how Sarajevo would view their staying and continuing to work in

15 Pale?

16 A. I don't know about that.

17 Q. Do you know about a doctor, Senad, from the medical centre at

18 Pale? I don't know his last name.

19 A. I have no idea. Senad, you say?

20 Q. Do you know that Muslims, the Muslims who stayed in Pale, many of

21 them fought on the side of Republika Srpska?

22 A. That could not have happened.

23 Q. I put it to you, sir, that this convoy was organised in an

24 agreement with the other side, with the SDA party and its head for Pale,

25 Ahmet Palo.

Page 12042

1 A. Ahmet would not have been capable as a human being or otherwise

2 to organise something like that.

3 Q. I have no further questions. Thank you, sir.

4 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you very much.

5 JUDGE HALL: Is it still the position of counsel for

6 Mr. Zupljanin that they decline to cross-examine?

7 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour, that's correct. We don't have

8 the cross-examination of this witness. Thank you.

9 JUDGE HALL: Re-examination?

10 MR. DOBBYN: Yes, Your Honours. I have just a few questions.

11 Re-examination by Mr. Dobbyn:

12 Q. Good morning again, Mr. Crncalo.

13 Now, first of all, you were asked several questions earlier today

14 about the existence or otherwise of detention centres in Pale.

15 MR. DOBBYN: And I'd like to call up Exhibit P1465.

16 Q. Mr. Crncalo, what you will see in front of you is the map of Pale

17 that you marked yesterday. And you'll see the building that you marked

18 with number 2. You described that as being a cinema. And -- and you say

19 that was the only building you know that operated as a prison or

20 detention centre at that time.

21 Now, Mr. Crncalo, was -- was that cinema building, do you know if

22 it was ever used as a gym?

23 A. It's possible that there's another section in that building. I

24 didn't go into every room there. But there is a part, a big part, that

25 is cinema, where tickets were sold and snacks; and there was a door on

Page 12043

1 the left where I never went through. And there was another door leading

2 directly to the cinema hall where movies were shown. It's possible that

3 there may have been other parts of that building that I don't know about.

4 Q. Do you know whether this building, the cinema building, was ever

5 used as a cultural centre before the other building you've located as

6 number 3 on the picture?

7 A. I came to Pale to attend high school in 1963. And, as a young

8 man, I liked to go to the cinema. I know I went there to see movies.

9 Now, as a community hall or something else, I think this used to be an

10 old primary school that was used as a community hall, the one that I

11 encircled as a sports hall. And then it was renovated, and social events

12 took place there, and cultural events.

13 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry -- I'm sorry. If I may be of assistance.

14 I don't think -- and I think it's important because 35, 16: I don't

15 think that the witness mentioned a sport hall at all. What he was

16 talking about was the -- the cultural hall. And also in line 15:

17 Primary -- the old primary school that was used as a cultural

18 hall, the one that I encircled as a cultural hall. And then it was

19 renovated, and there was social, cultural events.

20 Maybe you can clarify that with the witness.

21 MR. DOBBYN: That is just what I was planning to do.

22 Q. Mr. Crncalo, when you talk about this building that you

23 encircled, you said it used to be an old primary school that was used as

24 a community hall. I just want to be clear, which building are you

25 referring to? The building with which number on the map?

Page 12044

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Sorry, which of these buildings that you've encircled was the one

3 that used to be an old primary school and was then used as a cultural

4 hall.

5 A. The one with number 3 on it.

6 Q. Thank you. I'll move on now to another point.

7 You were asked some questions about the speech that

8 Radovan Karadzic gave in Pale. And you were asked as to why you had

9 never given the details of that speech before, or at least not until

10 testifying in the Karadzic case.

11 Now, when you testified in Krajisnik and you mentioned that

12 Mr. Karadzic had given a speech in Pale, at that time, were you asked

13 what the content of that speech was, if you can recall?

14 A. No one ever asked me before about the contents of Karadzic's

15 speech, when I mentioned he gave a speech at the cultural hall.

16 Q. So until you were asked with -- asked by lawyers from the

17 Office of the Prosecutor related to the Karadzic case, until that point,

18 had you ever been asked for the exact content of that speech?

19 A. No one ever asked me what Karadzic said at that rally, at that

20 meeting.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 Now, the final point I'd like to go over again with you is this

23 issue of the house exchanges in relation to you moving out of Pale.

24 MR. DOBBYN: Now, could we please call up Exhibit P1464. And can

25 we have page 2 of the English, please. Remaining on page 1 of the B/C/S.

Page 12045

1 Q. Mr. Crncalo, do you see the entry for the exchange of your house

2 at the bottom of the page?

3 A. I see it.

4 Q. And that's dated the 2nd of July, isn't it?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. The 2nd of July is the date that you were moved out of Pale on

7 the convoy, isn't it?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Now, in -- when you testified in Krajisnik, and you talked about

10 the process of being moved out --

11 MR. DOBBYN: And I'll just refer Your Honours and counsel to

12 transcript page 5347 of that transcript, which is part of his proposed

13 92 ter package.

14 Q. Do you recall saying - sorry, I'll just find that - that

15 instructions would be posted up and -- for the Muslim population, and

16 they would be told which people from a particular area had to leave on a

17 convoy on which particular day?

18 Do you remember being told that? Oh, sorry, and do you remember

19 testifying as to that?

20 A. I remember when I testified about that. There was an

21 announcement on a sort of post, stuck to a lamppost, designating where

22 the people should go to board the buses.

23 Q. And do you recall when you found out that you were going have to

24 leave Pale? Was it the day that you had to leave; was it the day before?

25 Are you able to remember?

Page 12046

1 A. We knew that we had to leave the day before.

2 Q. So is it correct, then, that when Dragica Subotic came to your

3 house and said she wanted to have your -- to exchange your property, at

4 that point you already knew that you had to leave Pale; is that right?

5 A. I knew I was leaving Pale the day before. And the day we were

6 leaving, we went to the municipality to sign the contract.

7 Q. And was it the day -- was that the -- the day that she first

8 approached you to exchange your property?

9 A. She didn't come before.

10 MR. DOBBYN: Thank you, Your Honours. I have no further

11 questions.

12 Q. Thank you, Mr. Crncalo.

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, if I may just make a sort

15 observation.

16 I think we -- we are having a conflicting evidence in -- in the

17 last -- in the last two or three questions which Mr. Dobbyn posed. And I

18 would ask kindly if Mr. Dobbyn can explore more. Basically here is

19 the -- what -- what I see as a problem:

20 The witness testified that his late brother was in charge of

21 negotiating the exchange of the -- of the property. Now, I think that

22 Mr. Dobbyn has confused the witness with his answers because -- because

23 the witness gave the answer that she came on the day when -- when they

24 were exchanging the keys and she moved into -- into their property and

25 they went into the bus, they boarded the bus.

Page 12047

1 Obviously there has been a previous -- there must have been a

2 previous contact between the -- his late brother and the -- and this lady

3 that moved into their house. So maybe -- maybe this can be explored by

4 Mr. Dobbyn. Because, like this, it would -- it wouldn't be very clear

5 what is the evidence on -- on this issue by the witness.

6 That is my observation, Your Honours.

7 MR. DOBBYN: Your Honours, I'm not sure if you share that

8 observation, but, in my view, the evidence does seem clear: He found

9 out -- he and presumably his brother found out the day before they had to

10 leave Pale that they, in fact, had to leave. The day that they did have

11 to leave, they were approached by this woman and told that she wanted to

12 exchange houses with them.

13 That's what I see on the record. What the -- what the witness

14 has said, I'm -- I'm not sure what exactly needs to be clarified beyond

15 that.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE DELVOIE: I think, Mr. Dobbyn, it would be good to ask the

18 witness, because I -- I'm somewhere in between the two positions.

19 MR. DOBBYN: Certainly, Your Honours.

20 Q. Mr. Crncalo, I'm sure you've heard what Their Honours have been

21 saying and my learned counsel.

22 Now, before the 2nd of July, the day that you moved out of Pale,

23 do you know whether there was any contact between Dragica Subotic and

24 your brother, with regards to exchanging the properties?

25 A. Once we found out that we had to leave, my brother had a big cow,

Page 12048

1 and he said, What am I going to do with the cow? I said, You have to

2 leave it. And he said, Do you think I could sell it to someone to get

3 something for it, a bit of money?

4 There was a crowd of people milling about, and he hadn't sold the

5 cow. The day came when we had to leave. We were thinking, Where were we

6 going go? Where were we going live? And, that day, a lot of people came

7 to the street, which was called the 16 Muslim Brigade Street. There were

8 two Serb houses at the beginning of the street, and Serb refugees

9 probably knew we were leaving. So many people were suddenly there; you

10 couldn't pass through. And as people were coming, they were trying to

11 get to the houses first. And then this woman appeared, wanting to take

12 our house in exchange, and he said, Shall I give it to her? I said, Swap

13 it; do something. Then we went to the municipality, and we had to meet

14 this deadline. We had to board the buses by 2.00. Everything had to be

15 done by then.

16 MR. DOBBYN: Your Honours, does that clarify the matter?

17 Thank you.

18 Q. Thank you, Mr. Crncalo.

19 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Crncalo, we thank you for your testimony before

20 the Tribunal. You are now released as a witness, and we wish you a safe

21 journey back to your home. Thank you.

22 The usher will now escort you from the courtroom. Thank you.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

24 [The witness withdrew]

25 MR. DOBBYN: And, Your Honours, now that the witness has

Page 12051

1 the ordinary time that we would rise to take a break, if you need to take

2 an adjourn -- if you need to have a break, you would indicate that to the

3 Trial Chamber and we would, of course, accommodate you.

4 So if you have understood those -- that explanation that I have

5 given, I would now invite Mr. Di Fazio to begin his examination-in-chief

6 of you.

7 Sorry, one -- one other small matter. The -- you may have

8 gathered that your testimony begins in the middle of a session, as it

9 were, so actually we are scheduled to take the first break in your

10 testimony within the next 11 minutes. And then we will have one more

11 session before we rise for the day.

12 Yes, Mr. Di Fazio.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours.

14 Examination by Mr. Di Fazio:

15 Q. In addition to the matters relating to your personal background

16 that the Trial Chamber asked you about, can you tell us if these details

17 that I'm going to list to you are correct.

18 You went to school and university in Sarajevo and graduated from

19 the university in 1974 with a degree in mechanic engineering. Is that

20 correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You started working at a place called the Famos factory, which is

23 in Hrasnica, which is a suburb or area of Sarajevo city?

24 A. That's correct.

25 Q. You started working there as a mechanical engineer, and you were

Page 12052

1 promoted to chief of the development department there in 1990?

2 A. That's correct.

3 Q. In fact, you continue working to this day as -- at the

4 Famos factory, but in Lukavica?

5 A. Yes. There have been short breaks, though.

6 Q. Certainly. For a period of time, and could you give us the time,

7 the period of time, you were the mayor of eastern Sarajevo?

8 A. I was mayor of eastern Sarajevo from 2005 till 2009.

9 Q. Thank you. You did your military service in the JNA at a place

10 called Titov Veles in Macedonia, and that was in 1975 and 1976; correct?

11 A. Yes, correct.

12 Q. Now, during the course of your testimony, I'm going to be asking

13 you about a number of documents which are documents of or pertaining to

14 the SDS.

15 So the first question we need to sort out is this: Were you ever

16 a member of the SDS?

17 A. Yes. I've never been officially a member of the SDS, but I was

18 in a certain position to which the SDS delegated me, such as president of

19 the Executive Committee in 1991 and 1992, as well as mayor of eastern

20 Sarajevo in the time-period I've mentioned, 2005 till 2009, but without

21 being a party member.

22 Q. Were you ever on any SDS lists for the municipality of Ilidza?

23 A. Yes, of course. At the first elections in Bosnia and

24 Herzegovina, on the 24th of November, 1990, I was first on the list for

25 the Ilidza municipality. I was on the list of the SDS for that

Page 12053

1 municipality, Ilidza.

2 Q. Okay. Now can you please explain briefly to the Trial Chamber

3 how it was that you came to be on list of SDS members for Ilidza? What

4 the circumstances were.

5 A. That's not a list of the SDS members; it's a list compiled by the

6 SDS party.

7 How it came about? Well, actually it was a mere coincidence;

8 namely, the then-representatives of the party, the SDS, in late 1990,

9 were short of time. On the last day, they could submit their lists for

10 the election in 1990; they didn't have enough members to register -- to

11 put them on the list for Ilidza. Two people approached me - I knew one -

12 and said they had this problem and whether I agreed that my name be put

13 on the list of the party because there was the risk of the SDS being

14 without a list on the upcoming elections.

15 I agreed to be put on the list. And, at that moment, I didn't

16 demand to be the first on the list nor was it offered to me. But these

17 people who had come to make that request, at the last moment when they

18 were supposed to submit the list, they simply put my name at the top.

19 And I subsequently learned that I was the first on the list, but I didn't

20 oppose that, although I -- it wasn't any condition of mine.

21 Q. Okay. Thanks for that. Following the elections, were you

22 appointed to any official position in the municipality of Ilidza?

23 A. Yes. After the elections, where the SDS fared second - the SDA

24 was the strongest party - but the SDS was the second in the

25 administrative structure the municipality of Ilidza, which meant that the

Page 12054

1 president of the Executive Committee of the Ilidza municipality was a

2 position that was given to the SDS. And the president of the

3 municipality was a position that was filled by the SDA. They installed

4 Mr. Mahmutovic.

5 There was a formal contract between the administration and the

6 Famos factory where I worked to the effect that I wouldn't attend my job

7 at Famos during my term in office but when that expires I could return to

8 my previous job at Famos.

9 Q. Okay. Thanks. I want to ask you about some of the persons or

10 personalities who were involved -- elected to government in the

11 municipality of Ilidza.

12 Do you know a gentleman named Nedeljko Prstojevic?

13 A. Yes. Mr. Nedeljko Prstojevic was a member of the Executive

14 Committee -- or, rather, he was the secretary of the inspection

15 inspectorate. It was a body of the Executive Committee, and I was

16 president of that committee. I must add that I believe that, as soon as

17 then, he was president of the municipal committee of the SDS for Ilidza.

18 Q. Do you know a gentleman named Maksim? Maksim Stanisic?

19 A. Yes. I know Mr. Maksim Stanisic very well. As a result of this

20 same elections, he as representative of the SDS, became president of the

21 Executive Committee at the level of the city of Sarajevo.

22 The city of Sarajevo, you may know, is made up of ten

23 municipalities. And at the level of all these ten, there's the

24 administration that had an Executive Committee. The president was

25 Mr. Stanisic, and one of these ten municipalities, Ilidza, I was

Page 12055

1 president of the Executive Committee. And Ilidza was, as I said, one of

2 the municipalities that made up Sarajevo.

3 Q. Thank you. Now, in the period of time that you were working in

4 the government of the municipality of Ilidza, did you ever attend any SDS

5 party meetings in Ilidza?

6 A. Yes. Of course --

7 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... okay --

8 A. I went there as --

9 Q. Following your election, how often would you go to -- to these

10 meetings?

11 A. Well, I can say that I attended all meetings organised by the

12 municipal committee of SDS of Ilidza because that was my obligation as

13 president of the Executive Committee on behalf of the SDS and, in a way,

14 the -- the one person in the municipality of Ilidza who -- who had the

15 most prominent position for the SDS.

16 Q. When you attended those meetings, did you ever become aware of

17 instructions being issued to the SDS in Ilidza from higher organs or

18 higher levels within the SDS?

19 A. The SDS functioned the same way as all of the other political

20 parties. It had its organisational structure at the top of which was the

21 president and then there was the Main Board and there was the -- there

22 were Municipal Boards. And as any organised party, it had precise

23 instructions that were transferred to the level of Municipal Boards.

24 And, of course, taking part in these meetings, I was acquainted with this

25 basic organisational structure of the party and the way it functioned.

Page 12056

1 Q. You speak there about precise instructions being received at the

2 level of Municipal Boards. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what sort of

3 precise instructions they were, whether they were documents or faxes,

4 standing instructions, visits from members of the SDS from higher levels

5 within the party?

6 A. Well, it's hard to speak at general level, but I can say that,

7 with regard to the fact that it was a newly organised party, that it

8 didn't have a structure that had already been stream-lined. Anyway, the

9 instructions were mostly passed on orally from the members of the

10 Main Board, that is, people who were members of the higher bodies of the

11 party and who transferred that to the local levels to let them know what

12 the expectations were of the party from the local level.

13 Q. Were you ever addressed by a gentleman named Ostojic from the SDS

14 Main Board?

15 A. Mr. Ostojic is a resident of Ilidza, that is, a citizen of the

16 municipality in which I was president of the Executive Board. And there

17 were frequent contacts between him and us at Ilidza. I don't remember

18 any direct personal contact with him, but we did have some formal and

19 informal contacts with him as a party cell, and we learned about the

20 conclusions made at the higher party levels that we were supposed to

21 implement.

22 On the other hand, Mr. Ostojic was deputy prime minister, and the

23 prime minister at the time was Jure Pelivan. Mr. Ostojic was his deputy

24 and in charge of information, as far as I remember. So being a cabinet

25 minister, he was in a position to act in the municipality of Ilidza and

Page 12057

1 pass on conclusions from his purview because he was member of the cabinet

2 of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

3 Q. And his first name?

4 A. Velibor. That was his first name. He is dead now.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: This would be an appropriate time, if

6 Your Honours, please.

7 JUDGE HALL: Yes. So we take the break now and return in 20

8 minutes.

9 [The witness stands down]

10 --- Recess taken at 12.06 p.m.

11 --- On resuming at 12.29 p.m.

12 [The witness takes the stand]

13 MR. DI FAZIO:

14 Q. Mr. Kezunovic, you mentioned that this gentleman Mr. Ostojic

15 would occasionally address you or communicate with you at the Ilidza

16 municipal level; he, being on the SDS Main Board.

17 Did Mr. Jovo Jovanovic ever do the same?

18 A. Mr. Jovo Jovanovic, at the time, was president of the town board

19 of the SDS as far as I remember, and in accordance with the logic of

20 things he occasionally came to Ilidza to take part in the activities of

21 the party and attend some meetings to learn about the activities. And

22 that's why he occasionally came to Ilidza.

23 Q. And that communication and transfer of information, was it just

24 one way, from the top down; or did your municipal Ilidza board also brief

25 him and such personality -- other personalities in the SDS hierarchy on

Page 12058

1 events on the ground? What was happening in Ilidza?

2 A. Well, yes. It is logical for that communication to go two ways,

3 and we did information about the decisions of the higher bodies of the

4 party, and there was opportunities for the members of these higher bodies

5 to become acquainted with the events at the local level - in this case,

6 Ilidza - and which may necessitate the taking of political decisions that

7 would be applied more generally and not only to Ilidza.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 MR. DI FAZIO: Can the witness be shown 65 ter 1972, please.

10 Q. Okay. This document, it's clear what it is. It purports to come

11 from the Main Board of the SDS, and it's addressed to Municipal Boards of

12 the SDS in Bosnia. And it sets out operational guide-lines concerning

13 the holding of meetings of the local boards and the necessity for local

14 boards to remain in contact with the people, with households. And it

15 purported to also attach a questionnaire which is not on the document.

16 My question is this: Were you aware of any such instructions

17 concerning the holding of meetings, the weekly review of the situation,

18 the need for local boards to keep in touch with the people in specified

19 numbers of households?

20 A. I haven't had the opportunity to see this document. I cannot

21 speak specifically about it. But, generally speaking, yes, there have

22 been activities of the party as outlined here.

23 I cannot say anything about any particular outcomes of this

24 document that we see on our screens.

25 Q. Thank you. When you say you haven't seen this document, you mean

Page 12059

1 that you didn't see it back in the early 1990s but you've seen it since

2 coming to testify?

3 A. Yes, that's correct.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, if Your Honours please, I would seek to

5 either tender that document; if you're not with me on that, then I would

6 ask that it be marked for identification.

7 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe that there

8 are no grounds for tendering this document through this witness.

9 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Di Fazio, apart from the lack of nexus, I'm not

10 sure I appreciate what is being -- for what purpose it's being tendered.

11 MR. DI FAZIO: To establish the connection between local boards

12 of the SDS and the Main Board of the SDS and the communications and the

13 gathering of information and the passage of information up to the

14 SDS Main Board.

15 That's the -- that's the main purpose of -- of this document.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE HALL: Save for the architecture of the -- perhaps

18 architecture is the wrong analogy, but the mechanics of how these levels

19 operated is -- doesn't it go without saying? I mean, do we need a piece

20 of paper to lay that down?

21 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, it does bolster that. And it is evidence of

22 that, And that's the point I'm trying to nail. But if Your Honours feel

23 that it's superfluous, I would ask that it simply be marked for

24 identification at this stage.

25 JUDGE HALL: [Microphone not activated] ... pending what? We

Page 12060

1 don't appreciate the relevance or indeed for this document, Mr. Di Fazio.

2 And we decline to admit it.

3 MR. DI FAZIO: Very well, Your Honours.

4 Q. You mentioned that --

5 MR. DI FAZIO: Your Honours, just bear with me.

6 Q. You mentioned that there had been activities of the party as

7 outlined here in the document. Did your board actually -- actively seek

8 out information about what was happening in Ilidza and specifically

9 transfer that to other levels of the SDS further up the hierarchy?

10 A. Well, I cannot speak about any particular activities that were

11 the outcome of this document that we've seen. But the party did have

12 activities that relied on communication between the various levels of the

13 party. And, of course, these were of interest to the local community of

14 Ilidza.

15 I cannot single out any particular event of this type. That

16 would have flown out of this document that we've just seen, though.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: Can the witness be shown 65 ter 20, please.

19 Q. This document is a decision on appointing a regionalisation

20 staff, and it refers to various members of that staff. And you head it

21 as president. And can you see that on the second page of the document of

22 the English, at least. And you can see it on the first page of the

23 B/C/S.

24 The purpose of the document -- or, rather, of the -- of the staff

25 is to monitor the implementation of a decision which relates to - and I

Page 12061

1 quote:

2 "The disassociation of populated areas from one municipality and

3 their incorporation into another municipality."

4 Firstly, were you a member of any such regionalisation staff?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. How did that come about?

7 A. To explain the genesis of the regionalisation staff, we would

8 have to go back to that time. I believe it was 1991. Yes,

9 September 1991.

10 After the population census which was conducted in April 1991,

11 and once events in Bosnia-Herzegovina started going their way, namely,

12 foreboding future misunderstandings, the parties, including the SDS,

13 started considering political moves, concrete moves, to be taken to ease

14 the situation, to reduce tensions. And the ethnic structure of

15 Bosnia-Herzegovina was one of the crucial problems in this respect.

16 The population census being completed, we used the information

17 contained therein to come up with an ethnic image of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

18 I tried to restructure the then-Bosnia-Herzegovina from the top to the

19 bottom - and Bosnia-Herzegovina was still part of Yugoslavia then - in

20 order to prevent future problems.

21 The purpose of this regionalisation committee, or commission, was

22 to come by data that should be used as the foundation for a proposal

23 toward preventing potential problems in Bosnia-Herzegovina at the time.

24 Q. Thank you. The document says that one of the members of the

25 staff was Mico Stanisic from Pale. Is that the Mico Stanisic who later

Page 12062

1 became minister of the interior?

2 A. I suppose so.

3 Q. Did you ever work with him on this particular staff?

4 A. Well, I can say that the staff -- or, rather, I don't remember

5 its being constituted. I don't remember being certified as a member of

6 that staff. Only the initial steps were taken, but it wasn't formally

7 constituted. And I don't remember a meeting attended by Mr. Stanisic.

8 Actually, I barely know Mr. Mico Stanisic. And we met not in the

9 framework of this regionalisation staff, which never really met to

10 constitute it, but I met him informally on other occasions.

11 Q. Can you remember when in relation to September 1991 you met him?

12 A. Yes, I've been thinking since yesterday. I remember a meeting

13 which was accidental in the -- in the office of the then-Speaker of the

14 Assembly Momcilo Krajisnik. I can't remember how this accidental meeting

15 occurred, but I remember we met in that office with several people, and,

16 among other people, there was Mr. Stanisic. I believe that was the first

17 time we met. And he will probably remember that he and I and all the

18 others were listening to a presentation by a professor at the faculty of

19 economics, Aleksa Milojevic [phoen], about the structure of the city of

20 Sarajevo; as such, its urban and rural position, the structure of the

21 population in both the urban and the rural parts of Sarajevo. And he

22 said that in the urban area the Muslim population was in the majority;

23 whereas, in the rural parts, the Serbs and the Croats were in the

24 majority, and what the implications of that were. So we were listening

25 to that presentation, and it was in the context of what we discussed

Page 12063

1 before. It was a meeting where Mico Stanisic and I were practically just

2 attendees.

3 MR. ZECEVIC: [Previous translation continues] ... I'm sorry.

4 54, 20, I believe the witness specifically explained which kind of

5 implications. Naming where the professor came from, which faculty.

6 Maybe this can be explored.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: Sure.

8 Q. You heard what Defence counsel said. Did you mention anything in

9 relation to where the -- which faculty the professor came from?

10 A. You're asking me?

11 Q. Yes, it was missed in translation.

12 A. I said that I practically remembered the occasion when

13 Mr. Mico Stanisic and I met. It was an informal meeting in the offices

14 of the then-speaker of the Assembly, and the professor was -- yes.

15 The faculty of economics in Sarajevo. Aleksa Milojevic is still

16 a full-time professor of economics there.

17 MR. ZECEVIC: I believe the witness said economic implications of

18 that situation. That is what I was referring to. "Economic

19 implications."

20 If he can confirm that.

21 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

22 Q. Well, did you mention anything about economic implications in

23 your previous answer?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What did you say? Because we missed it.

Page 12064

1 A. I tried to remember that meeting. In that context during that

2 informal meeting, we were listening to the thoughts of Professor

3 Aleksa Milojevic on the topic of what the then-structure of Sarajevo, its

4 rural an urban parts, was and what are the implications for the economic

5 life of the town of Sarajevo and what the city of Sarajevo should do.

6 MR. ZECEVIC: Please instruct the witness to talk slower because

7 this is really creating a problem, I assume, for the interpreters.

8 MR. DI FAZIO: I wasn't aware of any problem, but if that is a

9 problem, then, witness, please just go a little slower so that the

10 interpreters have time.

11 Q. Now, earlier you mentioned that you were going to use the census,

12 the results of the 1991 census, to do some work in relation to the duties

13 of this regionalisation staff. How were you going to -- how -- what

14 precisely were you going to do?

15 A. Well, first of all, I call the census -- is that census in 1991.

16 Regrettably, we didn't have any other in Bosnia-Herzegovina, but that

17 census was an opportunity to gain an insight into the overall situation

18 in Bosnia and Herzegovina, including the ethnic aspect and the entire

19 structure of Bosnia and Herzegovina. And, using this data, we tried to

20 analyse it for the purpose of formulating proposals that would be useful,

21 for eventually overcoming the situation that prevailed in Bosnia and

22 Herzegovina at the time.

23 Q. You say "we." "We tried to analyse it," the census data, "for ...

24 formulating proposals."

25 Are you referring to the work of the regionalisation staff?

Page 12065

1 A. No. I meant primarily, first of all, the municipality of Ilidza,

2 since I, as the president of the Executive Board, was at the same time

3 president of the commission for the census. And I engaged a whole team

4 in my Executive Board. And the job of these people was to analyse the

5 data derived from the census and, on that basis, try to formulate

6 specific proposals that would be geared at changes in the administrative

7 structure of the town of Sarajevo. And that was a proposal that was to

8 be adopted at the level of the city of Sarajevo and then, later, perhaps,

9 after further analysis, be raised to the level of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

10 Q. Was Predrag Bejatovic from Vogosca a member of the

11 regionalisation staff?

12 A. I don't know the man, but I don't remember that he was a member.

13 Because that founding session of the board never took place, so I don't

14 remember the man.

15 Q. Did you know any of these other gentlemen, apart from

16 Mico Stanisic who you've told us about, as being members of any

17 regionalisation staff?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Tell us about them, please.

20 A. I know Mr. Prstojevic; I remember him. Radislav Unkovic from

21 Novi Grad municipality. Mico Stanisic I've already mentioned.

22 Mr. Slobodan Jovandic. Jovandic, that's an architect in the institute

23 for urbanisation; I know him and no one else.

24 Q. And did any of them do any work that you're aware of on a

25 regionalisation staff?

Page 12066

1 A. Preparations were done as a result of the census in a way that

2 was agreed at the time: Namely, that within the framework of the

3 institute for city development, all this data should be agglomerated at

4 the level of the city of Sarajevo; that it should be analysed in the

5 institute, including one detail from that paper, ethnic maps of the city.

6 And the man who was in charge, then, of this job in the institute was

7 Mr. Jovandic, an architect, and he was supposed to transpose that onto

8 visible maps. And that was done, also at the level of the board, as

9 preparation for the work of this committee for regionalisation. But that

10 was also the end of the activities because no further work was done.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I seek to tender the

13 document.

14 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.

15 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1467, Your Honours.

16 MR. DI FAZIO:

17 Q. And you mentioned earlier a meeting that you had with

18 Mr. Mico Stanisic in Mr. Krajisnik's office, and you also said you didn't

19 know him very well. Apart from that meeting that you've mentioned in

20 Mr. Krajisnik's office, did you ever meet with Mr. Mico Stanisic on any

21 other occasions that you can recall?

22 A. Not that I remember.

23 Q. Thank you. Eventually, in 1992, did a Serb municipality of

24 Ilidza come into being?

25 A. Yes. The establishment of the Serbian municipality of Ilidza

Page 12067

1 followed the establishment of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and

2 Herzegovina in early January 1992, speaking of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

3 And soon after that, the Serbian municipality of Ilidza was also

4 established, meaning that a meeting was held where this was decided and

5 verified that the Serbian municipality of Ilidza should be established as

6 a result of a decision that had already been made at the level of

7 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

8 Q. Just yes or no: Did you attend that meeting?

9 A. Yes, I did. I was there.

10 Q. Did you hold any position in the Serbian municipality of Ilidza?

11 A. Yes. In that Serbian municipality of Ilidza, I was elected

12 president.

13 Q. Did it actually sit and conduct sessions in April of 1992?

14 A. I cannot talk about April. I cannot remember clearly what

15 happened in April, but I think that after that first session, where

16 people were elected to the main posts, I don't remember calling another

17 session as president of the Serbian municipality of Ilidza.

18 Q. Thanks. Can you quickly --

19 MR. DI FAZIO: Can we quickly have a look at 65 ter 3087, please.

20 Thanks. And if we could just please go to the B/C/S version, perhaps to

21 the last page -- second page, rather -- or the last page.

22 Q. Is that your signature on the document?

23 A. Yes, that's my signature.

24 Q. Thank you. All right. This is dated 3 January of 1992, and it's

25 the decision to proclaim the municipality that you've -- Serbian

Page 12068

1 municipality of Ilidza that you've just been talking about. And it says

2 that this happens partly as a result of the constitution, and partly as a

3 result of the will of the Serbian People, and partly as a result of an

4 instruction from the Main Board of the SDS dated 19 December 1991.

5 Do you have any knowledge or memory of that particular

6 instruction, number 079, of 19 December 1991?

7 A. Yes, I think that instruction was mentioned when we were making

8 this decision. But I don't think I held that decision on -- sorry,

9 instruction on paper. I didn't need it at the time either because all

10 the key protagonists in the establishment of the Serbian Republic of

11 Bosnia and Herzegovina attended this meeting as well, and that decision

12 by the supreme organs of the party and the then-Serbian authorities in

13 Bosnia and Herzegovina was conveyed to us, namely, that municipalities

14 were to be formed, in municipalities where the right conditions have

15 already been met.

16 Q. So even though you may not have had the actual document,

17 instructions number 79 of 19 December 1991, the import, the meaning of

18 the decision, was conveyed to you?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Thanks. The document says that the Assembly has got to consist

21 of Assemblymen from the SDS, presidents of local boards, or Assemblymen

22 of Serbian ethnicity who signed a statement.

23 You've told us you weren't in the SDS. Did you sign a statement

24 in order to become a member of the Assembly, or you can't recall?

25 I'm referring there to -- to Roman numeral III, paragraph 3; can

Page 12069

1 you see it there.

2 A. You see, as president of the Executive Board, I couldn't be an

3 Assemblyman. These two are not compatible. There is a separation

4 between the executive authorities and the parliament, and I was the local

5 prime minister practically, so I couldn't sign a statement, nor could I

6 become a member of that parliament.

7 Q. At the meeting where the Serb municipality of Ilidza was created,

8 did Mr. Jovanovic, the Mr. Jovanovic -- Jovo Jovanovic that you spoken of

9 earlier, did he attend?

10 A. I really cannot be sure now. I think he was there, but I can't

11 be sure.

12 MR. DI FAZIO: I tender the document, if Your Honours please.

13 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.

14 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1468, Your Honours.

15 MR. DI FAZIO: Can the witness be shown 65 ter 3088, please.

16 Q. Is that your signature?

17 A. Yes, that's my signature.

18 Q. The document refers to Serbian volunteers under heading -

19 paragraph 1, number 1 - heading 1. Who are these Serbian volunteers

20 being referred to there?

21 A. This is January 1992. These are Serbian volunteers who were, by

22 that time, already engaged and participated in the combat that was

23 drawing to an end in Croatia. And they were people from the Ilidza

24 municipality; some of them I knew got killed, leaving families behind.

25 And, of course, their families approached us for resolution of their

Page 12070

1 status and various benefits. And in my role as president of the

2 Executive Board of the Serbian municipality of Ilidza, I had to try to

3 find solutions or make proposals how to help out these families.

4 Q. Okay. It also says under number 3 that steps were to be taken to

5 protect the interests of the Serbian People in Ilidza, which included the

6 protection of workplaces and other spiritual and material assets in the

7 Ilidza municipality.

8 Do you know what the appropriate steps were to be, what was

9 envisaged?

10 A. As you can see, it was a draft decision. We made an initiative

11 to have some measures adopted at a higher level. And in January 1992, it

12 was a time on the eve of a very tumultuous event in Ilidza and in the

13 whole of the country; we were feeling the consequences of the war in

14 Croatia; and, of course, there was prevailing fear of the war spreading

15 to us. And we were trying to draft proposals and take preventive

16 measures to stop the war from spreading to Bosnia-Herzegovina in the same

17 form.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: I seek to tender that document into evidence if

19 Your Honours, please.

20 JUDGE HALL: If it was only a draft which was never implemented,

21 the --

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.

23 JUDGE HALL: [Previous translation continues] ... are we missing

24 something? Am I missing something, Mr. Di Fazio?

25 MR. DI FAZIO: It is evidence of the commencement of functioning.

Page 12071

1 It might have been a draft, but it was up for consideration. Obviously

2 they took time to create the document. And it is evidence of this

3 particular Ilidza municipality functioning to a -- at least to -- to that

4 extent where they are considering draft decisions. If you don't think

5 that you would served by it, then ...

6 JUDGE HARHOFF: Was it ever passed and adopted?

7 MR. DI FAZIO: I can ask the witness.

8 Q. Was it ever passed and adopted?

9 A. You're asking if the proposal was approved; it was. But I don't

10 know of any consequences that this proposal may have had. I don't know

11 that as a result of this proposal any decision was made at higher levels

12 of the party or Bosnia-Herzegovina.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: So the document remains an example of the

14 functioning and work of this particular municipality.

15 JUDGE HALL: Except that the witness's answer, what he just

16 volunteered, answers the reservations that I have about accepting this

17 document in evidence. Because -- it was -- it was the -- an example of

18 the -- of the formulation of an intention, but it didn't go any farther

19 than that. Nothing happened as a result of it.

20 So therefore I don't see how, down the road, there is anything

21 that you can invite the Chamber to deduce from it.

22 MR. DI FAZIO: Other than the fact of the functioning of the --

23 of the -- of the Ilidza municipality, Serbian municipality of Ilidza.

24 Other than that.

25 I agree that the witness has already testified about the

Page 12072

1 functioning and its setup and how it started to work. This merely

2 bolsters that. It's that -- to that extent, it's not a ground-breaking

3 document; but, to that extent, it corroborates his evidence.

4 JUDGE HALL: We're not persuaded, Mr. Di Fazio.

5 MR. DI FAZIO:

6 Q. I asked you about the -- the Serbian municipality of Ilidza.

7 Did there come a time when a Crisis Staff was created in Ilidza?

8 A. The Crisis Staff was established in Ilidza but not as a result of

9 a decision by the Serbian Assembly or anything. It happened as a result

10 of the events that started after the month of April. The Crisis Staff

11 was set up, indeed, but it had nothing do with the activities of the

12 Serbian municipality of Ilidza.

13 Q. How was it set up? As a result of what, I should say, was it set

14 up?

15 A. As a result of the new circumstances. In May, as you know, there

16 was an escalation of the conflict in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and the

17 party then instructed all Municipal Boards to go forward with organising

18 defences. And Crisis Staffs were established as a part of that activity

19 throughout Bosnia and Herzegovina, both in areas where Serbian

20 municipalities were organised and in other municipalities; in which case,

21 the -- the party apparatus took care of that, rather than the municipal

22 authorities.

23 Q. You say the party issued the instructions for Municipal Boards to

24 go ahead and create Crisis Staffs. When you say "the party," I know

25 you're talking about the SDS, but do you know what part of the party? Is

Page 12073

1 it the Main Board or some other organ within the party?

2 A. I cannot speak of specific decisions. In any case, instructions

3 came that in every municipality Crisis Staffs should be set up. And

4 every Municipal Board took steps to do that. And in such a way, through

5 the party the, the Crisis Staff of Ilidza was also set up.

6 Q. Were you a member of the Crisis Staff in Ilidza; and, if so, what

7 was your position?

8 A. Yes. Ex officio I was a member of that Crisis Staff. It

9 operated -- started from April, I think; and I was member of the Crisis

10 Staff until the movement when I resigned from all my posts in the party

11 and in the municipality which was in early May. So I was a member of the

12 star for about a month.

13 Q. And can you just be a little more specific about when the

14 Crisis Staff started to function. You told us April, but do you know

15 when in April? If you don't, that's fine. But if you can give us a more

16 accurate idea ...

17 A. I really cannot remember the exact date, but I think it was in

18 the beginning of April. I don't know when.

19 Q. Do you know a gentleman named Tomo Kovac?

20 A. Yes, Mr. Tomo Kovac was commander of the uniformed police in

21 Ilidza municipality.

22 Q. Was he a member of the Crisis Staff?

23 A. Yes. Tomo Kovac was a member of the Crisis Staff.

24 Q. By virtue of what? What reason was he a member of the

25 Crisis Staff in Ilidza?

Page 12074

1 A. Well, ex officio, he was a policeman. It was traditional law

2 enforcement activity. And the Crisis Staff was supposed to take care of

3 the security and safety in the municipality of Ilidza. And that, by

4 definition, was the job of the police.

5 Q. So because he was a police officer -- because he was the -- in

6 the police, that was the reason why he was in the Crisis Staff; do I

7 understand you correctly?

8 A. Precisely. As police commander, he was member of the

9 Crisis Staff.

10 Q. I'm not going to ask you about every member of the Crisis Staff

11 in Ilidza but just one in particular. Was a gentleman named

12 Ljubo Bosiljcic a member of the Crisis Staff in Ilidza?

13 A. Yes, Ljubo Bosiljcic was a member of the Crisis Staff, if I

14 remember well; also ex officio because at the time he was deputy to the

15 National Assembly, actually the Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina. He died

16 just ten or 15 days ago.

17 Q. Okay. Still talking about this period of time in February and

18 March - and I'd like to get through this quickly - you -- I'll lead you

19 to this extent: You've mentioned in your statement that there was an

20 episode involving a flag in the municipality, erected above the

21 municipality building. Can you tell the Trial Chamber about that

22 particular episode?

23 A. It's a Serbian flag that was hoisted on the building of the

24 Assembly, and I want to say that this episode practically marks and

25 colours the atmosphere that prevailed in Ilidza and in the city of

Page 12075

1 Sarajevo and further afield. To explain this problem, I have to say that

2 Tomo Kovac in the police, on the one hand, and people who represented

3 the -- who represented the municipal authorities, the president of the

4 municipality, Mr. Mahmutovic and I, we were trying at that time to

5 return, to recover that atmosphere; and we expected and we were

6 convinced, me most of all, that excalation of the conflict in

7 Bosnia-Herzegovina is completely impossible and should not happen. And

8 the four of us tried to make an agreement to have that municipality, for

9 which we were responsible, protected by our own activities, by our own

10 actions, from adverse events. And we often found ourselves in situations

11 where we had to diffuse tensions in the municipality. And in most cases,

12 we were successful. And that's how it happened that adverse consequences

13 started in Ilidza later than in the rest of Sarajevo.

14 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... okay --

15 A. And that's how the Serbian flag, one day, alit upon the building

16 of the Assembly.

17 Q. The Serbian flag was erected on -- above the municipal building

18 in Ilidza. Can you tell the Trial Chamber approximately when that event

19 took place?

20 A. It will be difficult for me to mention a date. I believe that it

21 was in mid-March or toward the end of March, 1992.

22 Q. And this was a building that --

23 A. It's the municipal -- municipality building.

24 Q. Thank you. And at the time, the police in Ilidza, had they split

25 and divided with Serbian police officers operating independently from

Page 12076

1 their Muslim and Croatian counterparts?

2 A. Well, I cannot assert that explicitly, whether there had been a

3 formal division. But there was some policemen, Mr. Mljivic [phoen] and

4 Mr. Kovac, they worked in the same building as I. And we could all feel

5 the adverse events in Ilidza. I really cannot say whether there was an

6 official division or split in the MUP of Bosnia-Herzegovina because I

7 don't remember.

8 Q. Okay. Thanks. Did you approach Mr. Kovac about the presence of

9 this flag; and, if so, briefly tell us what his response was.

10 A. Well, yes. I went to work and immediately noticed. And I

11 reacted because it was not in keeping with the spirit of our agreement to

12 keep the municipality of Ilidza outside the scope of possible conflicts.

13 And I spoke to the commander of the station, Mr. Kovac, to have the flag

14 removed from the municipality building.

15 He explained to me it wasn't possible because the police hadn't

16 put the flag there and that the police basically couldn't remove it. I

17 insisted that this be done and asked one policeman to be given to me, and

18 he did. So, assisted by that policeman, I removed the flag. And that

19 was the end of that episode with flying the Serbian flag from the

20 building of municipality which was, at the time, the municipality of

21 both -- over both Serbs and Bosniaks -- or rather, Serbs, Bosniaks, and

22 Croats.

23 Q. I'll ask you now to look at another document, please.

24 MR. DI FAZIO: 65 ter 2350. Perhaps the -- yes.

25 Q. Now, I'll -- you can see what this document says it is. It's

Page 12077

1 not -- purports to be. It's a list of members of the Main Board of the

2 SDS. And I want to take you through some of the names. Tell us if you

3 know them.

4 Number one you obviously would know: Dr. Karadzic; correct?

5 A. Correct. Yes, I know him.

6 Q. And number 5 is a gentleman I think you've spoken about

7 earlier --

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

10 A. Yes, that's the late Mr. Ljubo Bosiljcic, deputy.

11 Q. And number 11, you do know him: Bozidar Vucurevic?

12 A. Yes, 11. Bozidar Vucurevic. He was -- at the time, he was the

13 president of the Municipal Assembly of Trebinje.

14 Q. Velibor Ostojic; you've spoken about him this morning. You

15 obviously know him.

16 And --

17 A. [No interpretation]

18 Q. -- number 31: Mico Stanisic; you obviously know him.

19 Some other names, if -- on the next page of the English. And I'm

20 looking at number 34: Jovan Tintor; do you know him?

21 A. Yes, Jovan Tintor is a well-known name. He is from Vogosca, near

22 Sarajevo.

23 Q. 35, Savo Ceklic?

24 A. Yes. I knew him -- I didn't know him well, Dr. Savo Ceklic, but

25 it was a well-known name to me.

Page 12078

1 Q. Then the last three names, for the same of getting through this

2 quickly: Tomislav Sipovac, number 37; 39, Jovo Jovanovic; and 40,

3 Petko Cancar. Did you know them?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Were they all members of the Main Board of the SDS?

6 A. I really cannot say. But as far as I remember, they should have

7 been members of the Main Board because they were active and well-known

8 people. Most probably they were members of the Main Board. At that

9 time, certainly. I can't see a date here.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: Would Your Honours just bear with me for a moment.

11 [Prosecution counsel confer]

12 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours, please, I would ask that this

13 document be marked for identification at least at this stage. It may be

14 that -- possible to acquire further evidence about membership of the

15 Main Board of the SDS, and it would be a useful document from that point

16 of view. And, of course, the witness has already spoken about it and

17 mentioned some of the people on it who he believes were members of the

18 Main Board of the SDS by virtue of their position.

19 So that, at least, would warrant, I suggest, marking it for

20 identification at this stage.

21 JUDGE HALL: So marked.

22 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1469, marked for identification,

23 Your Honours.

24 MR. DI FAZIO: Can we now look at 65 ter 2351.

25 Q. And, Mr. Kezunovic, I want to go through essentially the same

Page 12079

1 exercise again once that's up on the screen.

2 And in Cyrillic the numbers are: Number 1, Radovan Karadzic,

3 you've mentioned; and number 4, Ljubo Boskjcic, you've mentioned.

4 Number 14, Sveto Lucic; did you know that person?

5 A. Yes, Mr. Sveto Lucic is a man from Pale whom I know, and I knew

6 him then too.

7 Q. Okay. And continuing, you've mentioned number 17,

8 Velibor Ostojic. What about number 18, Boro Sentic?

9 A. That's correct.

10 Q. Number 19 --

11 A. Boro "Sentic;" this is a typographical error. It's "Sendic" with

12 a D. He's a well-known member of the SDS and a member of the Main Board,

13 and I was -- believe he was one of the very prominent members of the

14 party from Banja Luka, and he was very active for a long time.

15 Q. Sendic.

16 A. [No interpretation]

17 Q. Sorry -- Sendic --

18 A. [No interpretation]

19 Q. -- number 18; you know for sure that he was a member of the -- of

20 the Main Board. It's not that you were -- [Overlapping speakers] ... or

21 not?

22 A. Oh that. No, I didn't say that. I knew for sure that he was

23 member of the Main Board. I just know Mr. Sendic, and I know his

24 activities. But whether he was an official member of the Main Board, I

25 don't know because I have no grounds for claiming that. I had no chance

Page 12080

1 to see these documents. But I suppose that was -- probably he was a

2 member of the Main Board because he was a very prominent member of the

3 party.

4 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Witness, you speak very fast, and I can hear

5 from the interpreters that they have a hard time following you. So

6 please speak a little more slowly. Thanks.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

8 Q. And if the list continues with what is, on the face of it,

9 supposed to be membership from 1991 -- and names that I want to run past

10 you there are Bozidar Vucurevic; you know that person? Number 5?

11 A. I apologise. I can't see what you're referring to. Number 5 ...

12 you mean the previous list?

13 Q. No. The list continues with a list of --

14 A. Okay.

15 Q. -- for 1991, and it starts -- it's the same document, but it

16 continues from 1991. And the one -- the names I'm going to run past you

17 are from that second part of the document.

18 Starting with number 5: Bozidar Vucurevic; do you know him?

19 A. Yes. I've already said who Mr. Vucurevic is --

20 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... you may have, and I --

21 A. -- and I said that most probably he was a member of the --

22 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... I'm sorry, if I -- can you

23 repeat them? I can't remember all of them, so it will be more efficient

24 to get through them quickly.

25 Number 7, Rajko Dukic; do you know that person?

Page 12081

1 A. All right. Yes, I do.

2 Q. And number --

3 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Di Fazio, I think the shorter way of getting

4 this information into evidence is probably to ask the Defence if any of

5 this is contested. Because if it's not, then let's just admit the lists

6 and move on.

7 Can the Defence identify whether they contest the information in

8 these lists?

9 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we are opposed to

10 introducing this document through this witness because this witness is

11 not a member of the SDS, nor is he a member of the Main Board of the SDS.

12 And he has explicitly said that he cannot state with certainty whether or

13 not the persons on the list are members of the Main Board of the

14 Serbian Democratic Party. He supposes things, but he doesn't know. The

15 only thing he said is that he knew some of these persons in person. He

16 doesn't know them in the capacity of members of the Main Board, but he

17 knows them personally.

18 This is our basic objection, the basic objection of the Defence.

19 So we believe that, at this moment, this document cannot be introduced

20 through this witness, nor can we try to elicit details of -- about this

21 document from this witness, except for what he said, that he personally

22 knows Bozidar Vucurevic. But that isn't of much use to us.

23 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you, Mr. Cvijetic.

24 I suppose we could MFI the document.

25 MR. DI FAZIO: That's as far as I want to go, if Your Honours