100928ED

Page 14935

1 Q. I'm sorry, Witness, I just want to be sure I am clear about this.

2 And the other acronym was MO, which I think you said stood for local

3 boards.

4 A. Local board, yes.

5 Q. So in the context of this document, does that mean local boards

6 within Zvornik municipality?

7 A. In Zvornik municipality there was a Municipal Board which some

8 people also called Main Board, and in addition there were local boards.

9 So there were local boards and Municipal Boards. And this abbreviation

10 stood for the members of the Municipal Board.

11 Q. Okay. And "GO" means the Executive Board of the SDS in Zvornik

12 municipality?

13 A. No, no, no. Since this was a document of the municipality, the

14 reference was to the members of the local board and of the Municipal

15 Board. The Municipal Board is a higher-ranking body than the local

16 board.

17 Q. And I'm sorry, "GO" refers to what, the Executive Board of the

18 SDS in Zvornik?

19 A. This refers to Zvornik.

20 Q. Thank you, Mr. Witness. I don't have any further questions for

21 you now.

22 JUDGE HALL: Yes, Mr. Cvijetic.

23 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

24 Cross-examination by Mr. Cvijetic:

25 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, good afternoon.

Page 14936

1 A. Good afternoon.

2 Q. I'm about to start with a general question. If you could, as it

3 were, order the events in Zvornik and classify them in time and in place,

4 could you perhaps make a -- make a ladder of events for us to be able to

5 orient ourselves?

6 A. If I were to structure the political activities in Zvornik, I

7 would structure it in three parts. The first phase would be from the

8 elections to the establishment of the joint bodies in Bosnia-Herzegovina

9 at municipal level. That went on until the end of 1991. The second

10 phase is the beginning of the end of the functioning of the authorities

11 in Bosnia-Herzegovina, which went from the end of 1991 to the beginning

12 of 1992. And the third phase would be the war in which there was

13 complete anarchy until the arrest of the paramilitaries in Zvornik, and

14 only then did government start functioning in Zvornik municipality,

15 government or state authorities.

16 Q. Let us be more precise. If you agree with me, we will limit that

17 war time-period from the 6th of April until the arrival of the special

18 unit, right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. I'm not so much interested in the first period but the second

21 period of the crumbling of authorities in Bosnia-Herzegovina. Could you

22 make a list of the causes of the crisis but without a deep analysis?

23 A. I believe that it's well-known to everybody. There was

24 Yugoslavia as a joint state. Bosnia-Herzegovina was an integral part of

25 Yugoslavia. (redacted), from the very

Page 14937

1 first moment until it ceased to work, practically half the time was used

2 to deal with the issues of tackling the crisis in former Yugoslavia

3 without its affecting Bosnia-Herzegovina and its breakup. And the effect

4 was the following. Decisions were taken to mitigate what was the

5 consequence of the demands of the Muslims and the Croats to nullify

6 everything that originated from the federal level. And so the proposal

7 was formulated that the Serbs -- or rather, that Bosnia-Herzegovina

8 remain in a joint state and that some democratic matters should be

9 defined that would make possible good relations among the ethnicities.

10 There was also the proposal to establish a council of peoples

11 where there would be no down-voting of any side and where essential

12 issues could be regulated, and all that was part of the Cutileiro Plan

13 which was also signed. However, the plan didn't come into effect and

14 Bosnia-Herzegovina basically ceased to exist and the authorities fell

15 apart. As a consequence, many people started appearing at places where

16 they didn't belong. There were people who had doubtful qualities.

17 Everything was based on the ethnic -- was based on ethnicity, on ethnic

18 grounds. A big problem was the conflict with the JNA. The Muslims and

19 Croats were attacking it, whereas we still saw it as a joint army, the

20 task of which was to preserve the peace in Bosnia-Herzegovina and

21 Yugoslavia. Of course that had an effect on Zvornik municipality too.

22 From the level of the republic, the problem descended to the

23 municipalities. That would be it in a nutshell.

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 14938

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 A. Yes, I do.

15 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Could we please show 1D03, on the

16 screens, 4415.

17 Let us move to the following page immediately, where we will see

18 the contents. The following page. Right. Let us enlarge the right half

19 and we also need the English version.

20 I think that we have both versions now.

21 Q. Witness, you can see here the decisions of the Crisis Staff. The

22 first one is the decision on the declaration of the state of war in the

23 territory of the Serbian municipality of Zvornik. You commented that

24 yesterday; correct? Now the second decision is the decision regarding

25 restrictions on the disposal of strategic stockpile. Do you remember

Page 14939

1 that the Crisis Staff adopted this decision?

2 A. Well, I couldn't say anything about particular about it now.

3 Q. The introduction of work obligation, I believe that you said

4 something about that to the Prosecutor yesterday, and the decision on the

5 introduction of a curfew. There's also the decision on the establishment

6 of a provisional government. Can you see it? And it says down there

7 that the Crisis Staff also issued some orders, such as the order on

8 general mobilisation, the order on the marking of vehicles, and the order

9 on the mobilisation of civilians. After that you can see the enactments

10 of the provisional government?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You will agree with me that these basic strategic decisions were

13 first adopted by the Crisis Staff; right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. After that the provisional government took over power in Zvornik

16 municipality?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And the provisional government continued to make all crucial

19 decisions; correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this gazette with

22 all regulations is a very lengthy document. I only asked to -- for its

23 contents to be displayed so that we may see the extent of the legislative

24 activities of the authorities in Zvornik municipality. And since the

25 table of contents is a relatively small portion of the entire document, I

Page 14940

1 seek to tender that into evidence.

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE HALL: The -- we were just wondering, Mr. Cvijetic, whether

4 the nature of this document is not such that it could be conveniently

5 placed in the law library. I take your point about seeking only to

6 tender the page in interest of economy, but I see certain practical

7 problems about that course.

8 Does the Prosecution have a view on this?

9 MR. HANNIS: Your Honours, I don't have any question about the

10 authenticity of this, and particular enactments may be something relevant

11 and I'd like to argue about it at the end of the case, and I think your

12 suggestion to perhaps add it to the law library is something that would

13 be acceptable to the Prosecution.

14 JUDGE HALL: Yes, Mr. Cvijetic.

15 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Very well. I will accept this

16 suggestion and I will move on. That it becomes part of the law library.

17 Can we now look at 1D03-4368, please.

18 Q. Witness, I didn't want to repeat this. You saw the decision on

19 the declaration of the state of war in the municipality of Zvornik, and

20 then on the same day the order on general mobilisation was adopted. Do

21 you recall that order?

22 A. This is from day three -- actually, the 8th of April. I cannot

23 remember specifically, but I don't dispute that it was adopted.

24 Q. Adopted at a meeting of the Crisis Staff. I'm asking you that

25 because you were a member of the Crisis Staff. Can you confirm the

Page 14941

1 authenticity of this document?

2 A. I cannot confirm its authenticity, but I'm not disputing that a

3 decision of this nature was adopted.

4 Q. Just like the decision on the declaration of the state of war?

5 A. Yes.

6 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry. I rise just to perhaps out of an

7 abundance of caution suggest that we have a redaction there with the

8 identification of the witness as being a member of a small body.

9 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.

10 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I don't mind moving into private

11 session because I'm going to be showing other documents of this small

12 body, so perhaps there would be no need then to redact the transcript. I

13 do accept your suggestion, Your Honours.

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Well, perhaps it would be better

20 to move into private session. I'm going to be going through all the

21 documents now of the Crisis Staff and some other documents, so perhaps it

22 would be wiser to move into private session.

23 JUDGE HALL: It appears that that's simpler at this stage.

24 [Private session]

25 (redacted)

Page 14945

1 THE REGISTRAR: Back in open session, Your Honours.

2 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Witness, could you please tell us again the name of the president

4 because the transcript is incorrect. Could you say it slowly.

5 A. The president of the temporary government is Branko Grujic.

6 Q. If you're able to recall, can you please tell us who the other

7 members were; and if you speak slowly because of the interpreters.

8 A. All I can remember is that the secretary of national defence was

9 still Stevo Ivanovic. One of the members was Stevo Radic. I do not

10 really remember the others. I couldn't say.

11 Q. Very well.

12 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

13 tender this document because I think it's very relevant to the events in

14 Zvornik. I would like to tender that as a Defence exhibit, please.

15 MR. HANNIS: No objection.

16 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.

17 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1D378, Your Honours.

18 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. We're going to look at two documents now, two exhibits -- or

20 actually, two decisions -- actually, a number of decisions of the

21 government, the temporary government.

22 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] So can we look at 1D03-4378. We

23 need to look at the right-hand side of the document.

24 Q. Witness, sir, this is a decision of the temporary government on

25 the establishment of a special unit of the Territorial Defence. You can

Page 14946

1 read the contents, just acquaint yourself with the contents of the

2 decision. Are you aware on the basis of this decision or on the basis of

3 your personal knowledge what the unit was that was granted this special

4 status?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Do you know that this decision was adopted on the establishment

7 of the special unit?

8 A. No, I didn't know about this.

9 Q. All right. Then I'm going to remind you about what unit this is

10 and I'm going to do that with our next document.

11 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] So can we look at 1D03-4403

12 instead of this one, please.

13 Q. You can see here what this unit is precisely. Pursuant to this

14 approval, the temporary government secured funds for the procurement of

15 uniforms. That refers to the Igor Markovic unit. Are you aware that

16 that was one of the names of the unit that was under the command of Zuco?

17 A. No.

18 Q. The temporary government thus was financing one of the volunteer

19 units. Are you aware of this information, that it was being financed

20 through the Territorial Defence?

21 A. No. I was aware that there were payments through the

22 Territorial Defence because I had the opportunity to see that in certain

23 documents.

24 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, these are two very

25 important decisions from the Zvornik municipality area, and I believe

Page 14947

1 that we have reason to adopt this document also on the approval on the

2 establishment of the special TO unit and also this one on the approval

3 for the provision of materiel and manufacture of uniforms.

4 MR. HANNIS: Your Honours, just for the record, the previous

5 document, I don't think any of the witness's answers justified getting

6 that document in. However, I'm satisfied regarding the authenticity of

7 both these documents. We -- these are documents the OTP received from

8 sources that lead us to feel quite comfortable that these are authentic

9 and were made at the time and say what they say on the screen. So I

10 don't object to admission of either one.

11 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.

12 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1D379, Your Honours.

13 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Cvijetic --

14 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I have to repeat, there were two

15 documents. I have to repeat, there were two documents. I am talking

16 about the first document, 1D03-4378 is a decision on the establishment of

17 the unit; and the second document, 1D03-4403, on the procurement of

18 equipment and uniforms for the special units -- unit. So I think the two

19 documents are connected. This is why I wanted to tender them.

20 MR. HANNIS: [Microphone not activated]

21 I have no objection except to indicate that the last document I

22 see only refers to supply of fabrics from manufacturing uniforms and no

23 reference to equipment.

24 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

25 THE REGISTRAR: Just for clarification, Your Honours, document

Page 14948

1 1D03-4378 will be Exhibit 1D379 and document 1D03-4403 will be 1D380,

2 Your Honours.

3 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Cvijetic, I'm just curious about what it is

4 you're seeking to show with these two documents.

5 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I intend to show

6 just three or four more documents, and I would like to deal with the -- I

7 would like to proceed by subject matter that the provisional government

8 dealt with. It is our submission which I'll put briefly. The

9 provisional government took decisions that were within the remit of the

10 state. In Zvornik a situation was created that Zvornik became a state

11 within a state. It had its army, its police, its government, they take

12 decisions from the remit of the state; and now I proceed by subject

13 matter. I have now arrived at the judiciary and I have one or two more

14 decisions and I will finish this topic with -- just with two or three

15 more documents.

16 JUDGE HARHOFF: But, if I may, before we proceed, you're saying

17 that the provisional government of the TO established a special unit, the

18 purpose of which was to secure the territory of the Serbian areas in

19 Zvornik. And then you move on to show another document that suggests

20 that Igor Markovic, who was in command of some of the volunteer groups

21 under Zuco, was put in charge of the special unit. So you're proving a

22 link between the governments and the volunteer groups; is that correct or

23 have I misunderstood?

24 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] You understood correctly,

25 Your Honour.

Page 14949

1 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry. I need to then interject and ask a

2 question because I'm not sure who Igor Markovic was. And I don't know

3 that we've had evidence that he was the commander of any unit. I think

4 the unit was named for this person, but I think that was somebody who was

5 killed.

6 JUDGE HARHOFF: You are correct indeed, Mr. Hannis. But my

7 question was merely whether Mr. Zecevic [sic], through the witness, was

8 trying to show that the provisional government in Zvornik was financing

9 the activities of a volunteer unit. And I understood his answer to be

10 positive.

11 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. We have seen

12 evidence from witnesses who were in Zvornik and we have also seen

13 payrolls, so that is not a contested issue. Earlier evidence has shown

14 that the unit in question was named after a member of that unit who was

15 killed, and that is this volunteer unit commanded by Zuco.

16 May I proceed, Your Honours?

17 JUDGE HARHOFF: Please do.

18 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please see document

19 1D03-4381. I apologise, the left-hand side of the document is what we

20 need.

21 Q. Witness, this is a decision of the provisional government dated

22 27 April about the disengagement of the judicial -- of judicial staff at

23 the Public Prosecutor's Office in Zvornik. Do you know that such a

24 decision was adopted?

25 A. No, I didn't know that it was adopted. I cannot confirm its

Page 14950

1 authenticity, but I also do not contest that it was adopted.

2 Q. I'll ask you the same question about all decisions, but please

3 focus your attention on the introduction. The provisional government

4 bases all its decisions on Article 5 of the decision on the declaration

5 of the state of war; can you see that? On the left side at the top.

6 A. Yes, I see it.

7 Q. So can you confirm that the provisional government relied

8 exclusively on the decision on the declaration of the state of war in the

9 adoption of all of its decisions? We have seen that on all documents.

10 A. Well, you're a lawyer so you're better qualified than me to see

11 that it's correct.

12 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe that this

13 is a very important decision. I seek to tender it and I will proceed to

14 show another important decision that affects the judiciary.

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Cvijetic, I see from your last question to the

17 witness with which -- to which the witness demurred is, I assume, the

18 alert to the Chamber of an argument which you're going to make at the end

19 of the exercise, and it is to that end that you are using these documents

20 as foundation for argument, rather than purporting for there to be any

21 nexus between the document and the witness?

22 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the foundation for

23 tendering this document -- these documents is the fact that the Crisis

24 Staff decided to declare the state of war, and based on that the

25 provisional government adopted a series of decisions that are extremely

Page 14951

1 important and they basically show that the state of war was indeed in

2 effect in Zvornik municipality. And the witness was in Zvornik

3 throughout the period I cannot now say as to --

4 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1D381, Your Honours.

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 JUDGE HALL: Yes, please proceed, Mr. Cvijetic.

9 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see the following

10 document: 1D03-4407. It's the right-hand side that we need.

11 Q. Witness, here too we see why the previous decision was adopted.

12 We saw there that persons holding positions of the regular court and

13 Public Prosecutor's Office were replaced, and here we see that a war time

14 military court is being established. Do you know that this was the case?

15 And we also see here that this is based on the decision of the

16 declaration of the state of war.

17 A. No, I don't know that. I cannot confirm the authenticity. But I

18 believe that such a decision existed, indeed.

19 Q. So you allow for the possibility of the existence of this

20 decision?

21 A. Yes. I mean, looking at the document.

22 Q. I would just like to hear whether you know who the president of

23 the war time military court was?

24 A. No, I don't.

25 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I must seek to

Page 14952

1 tender this document because it belongs with the previous one because

2 once the regular court and the Public Prosecutor's Office were replaced,

3 were no longer in function, now a war time military court was

4 established. And this is the basis for my subsequent dealings with the

5 witness; that's why I seek to tender this document as well.

6 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour --

7 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Cvijetic, logically I suppose we having admitted

8 the previous document it would be odd not to admit this, but the witness

9 himself has used a word which the Chamber itself didn't articulate before

10 and which is relevant to the admissibility of this document as well as

11 the previous document and that is the word "authenticity." Could you

12 assist us in that regard?

13 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, these documents --

14 was disclosed before and I only have documents contained in the

15 Official Gazette of the municipality of Zvornik. Issue 2 and issue 3

16 contain these decisions, and the witness himself doesn't doubt its

17 authenticity. We received the documents that -- because the Prosecution

18 disclosed them.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot confirm that they are

20 authentic. I can only say that I think they are.

21 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Witness, do you have any idea as to how this

22 court was going to function and who would be the other members of the

23 court? Or was this all left with Captain Stanojevic?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was not a member of the

25 provisional government. I do not know the intention of this document or

Page 14953

1 this decision. I don't know what its purpose was, nor do I know how the

2 decision was implemented, and I don't know the man either.

3 MR. HANNIS: If I may, Your Honour. Again, I don't have a

4 question about authenticity because these documents are part of the

5 greater collection that was received by us all at the same time and they

6 appear to be related and consistent with other evidence that's in this

7 case and perhaps other evidence that I may know from another case, but

8 I'm not contesting authenticity. But the last two documents, the

9 relevance of them at this point is less clear to me than some of the

10 earlier ones. And part of my objection is the way the questions are

11 asked and the way it's presented to the witness, where Mr. Cvijetic is

12 partly testifying about what this document means and what it shows about

13 how that court was done away with and this one was established for that

14 purpose. And this witness doesn't know and he hasn't been able to

15 comment to that effect. And I don't want at the end of the case

16 Mr. Cvijetic jumping up and pointing to these documents and saying, "See,

17 these show what I said they show." Well, he's not a witness, so they

18 don't show that.

19 So I don't have an objection about authenticity and I can see

20 that some inferences and arguments can be made, but not to the level

21 Mr. Cvijetic is putting for them at this point. So other than that I

22 don't know how you want to proceed with it, but that's my question, the

23 relevance isn't so obvious to me about these last two yet.

24 JUDGE HALL: Well, as I said, having admitted the previous

25 document, it would be awkward not to admit this, so this too is admitted

Page 14954

1 and marked. But in terms of your last observation, Mr. Hannis, the only

2 way I can say it is you can trust the Chamber in analysing the evidence

3 to separate evidence from submissions disguised as questions.

4 THE REGISTRAR: Admitted as Exhibit 1D382, Your Honours.

5 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm not sure when

6 the break is due, but possibly now would be a convenient time to break.

7 JUDGE HALL: I think it's 3.40, which is about seven minutes

8 away, but if you feel it is convenient to do it now we could as easily

9 take the break now.

10 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Fine with me. I can also

11 continue, but all right we can have the break now.

12 --- Recess taken at 3.34 p.m.

13 --- On resuming at 4.04 p.m.

14 JUDGE HALL: Yes, Mr. Cvijetic, you may continue.

15 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Please bear with me, Your Honour.

16 I'm getting tangled in all this technology.

17 Q. Witness, I think yesterday you were shown a document about the

18 establishment of the TO command in the Serb municipality of Zvornik.

19 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Just in case, could we please have

20 P1605 - I hope that's the correct number. It used to be 65 ter 2605. We

21 need the left-hand side of the document. Yes.

22 Q. Witness, I also wanted to double-check, and this was tendered

23 yesterday through you, do you recall having seen this document which is a

24 decision to form the Territorial Defence command of the Serbian

25 municipality of Zvornik. It was issued by the provisional government.

Page 14955

1 In Article 1 it is stated that Mr. Marko Pavlovic is appointed commander

2 of that Territorial Defence. Do you remember being asked about this

3 document by the Prosecutor?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Thank you. I won't dwell on it any further because it's already

6 an exhibit. Rather, I will try to go through other two documents with

7 you to see how this TO commander changed his positions in the

8 municipality of Zvornik. Let's look at another document, which is

9 P317.6.

10 Witness, you can see here that this is a document of the military

11 command of the East Bosnia Corps. It is signed by Colonel Nikola Dencic.

12 We can see that this document establishes the Zvornik Infantry Brigade.

13 Were you aware of such a brigade being established?

14 A. I was.

15 Q. Then I believe you're also familiar with the next fact, which is

16 something you mentioned in your statement, and that is that it was formed

17 out of members of the TO and that the Zvornik TO actually made part of

18 this new brigade?

19 A. I don't think you're correct. The infantry brigade was

20 established by the army. I don't know how, when, and where, but it

21 wasn't the TO that established it; that is certain.

22 Q. Then I'm afraid you misunderstood me. I wasn't trying to assert

23 that. I'm only asserting that some -- as we can see from the decision

24 that the TO HQ is to be transformed into the command of the Zvornik

25 Infantry Brigade?

Page 14956

1 A. Well, I guess it is so.

2 Q. Therefore, this clarifies it. The army established that brigade

3 by incorporating the TO HQ in Zvornik into its force?

4 A. Yes, that is correct.

5 Q. As you can see further down the decision a hand-over is referred

6 to, to be executed by Major Marko-Branko Popovic, who was the current

7 commander, and he was appointed to another position which was liaison

8 officer with the FRY. Is this not Marko Pavlovic or his other name?

9 A. I did hear that he came under an assumed name or a false name.

10 Somewhere I seem to have read that his first name was Branko, although

11 I'm not positive. In any case, this may well be the case, as is stated

12 in the document.

13 Q. Yes, I agree. We can see that this was done on May 30th, 1992,

14 when he was to move to his new position within a military unit. Can we

15 see that in the document, in particular in item 3?

16 A. I'm afraid I don't follow.

17 Q. He was supposed to move to another duty in the east --

18 A. Yes, we can see that in the document.

19 Q. Very well. I wanted to show you the last document concerning

20 this man. It is already an exhibit -- sorry, I'll -- the next one I'm

21 about to show is not an exhibit.

22 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have 1D03-4408,

23 the left-hand side of the document, please.

24 Q. Witness, you see here that the provisional government later on,

25 after this attempt to move Mr. Pavlovic to the military unit on the 16th

Page 14957

1 of June, issued this decision to appoint commander of the unified

2 military territorial command of the Serb municipality of Zvornik. As you

3 can see at item III, again Marko Pavlovic is being appointed commander.

4 Can you see that?

5 A. Yes, I can.

6 Q. Can you confirm that Mr. Marko Pavlovic, following the

7 establishment of the brigade, remained in the territory of the

8 municipality of Zvornik and he was assigned a new duty by the provisional

9 government?

10 A. It is true that after the Zvornik Brigade was established, he did

11 not leave Zvornik immediately, although I don't know where he was at that

12 time and what his position was.

13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Cvijetic, I'm a little bit confused here. Is

14 it your position that the Marko Pavlovic is the same man as the

15 Marko - what was it? - Marko-Branko Popovic in the previous document?

16 Does the witness confirm that?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's the same man.

18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.

19 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, given that this line

20 of document relies on the document we saw yesterday whereby he was

21 appointed commander of the TO HQ, I want to tender this document as well

22 because it indicates how he moved from one position to the next in the

23 territory of the municipality of Zvornik.

24 JUDGE HALL: Yes, admitted and marked.

25 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1D383, Your Honours.

Page 14958

1 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

2 Q. Witness, by virtue of these documents I wanted to deal with a

3 period --

4 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry to interrupt. Didn't that already have an

5 exhibit number? Okay. Which one are we talking about because I thought

6 that we were talking about the Marko Pavlovic --

7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Tab 20.

8 JUDGE HARHOFF: [Microphone not activated]

9 MR. HANNIS: Sorry, my mistake.

10 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] The previous document referred to

11 by Judge Delvoie is already an exhibit and I tendered this last one.

12 Q. Witness, by virtue of these documents I wanted to cover a period

13 in Zvornik between the 6th of April and the establishment or the

14 introduction of the special police unit in the area. Would you agree

15 with me that Zvornik with its provisional government during that period

16 functioned as a mini state basically?

17 A. Between the 6th of April and the arrival of the special brigade,

18 republican authorities basically did not have any power in that area.

19 They did not function.

20 Q. Yesterday you were asked something about the police station

21 chief, and at a certain point you told my learned friend that it was

22 precisely during that period that position was held by Mr. Milos Pantelic

23 who hails from Loznica and not from Republika Srpska; correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Since you said that the central authorities of Republika Srpska

Page 14959

1 held no sway over what was happening in Zvornik, another way to

2 corroborate that is to show what we did and that is that it was basically

3 the local authorities who appointed commanders in the area; correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Let's move on to the last period then. Can you recall when the

6 special unit entered Zvornik?

7 A. They entered Zvornik either in late April --

8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- late July or early August,

10 although I don't recall the exact date.

11 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Thank you. It suffices. As I asked you about the previous

13 period, can you briefly explain this period following the arrival of that

14 unit. Were there any changes?

15 A. As of the moment of their arrival in Zvornik, the first thing

16 that was done was to cleanse Zvornik of most paramilitary formations.

17 Most of them were arrested and taken to the prison in Bijeljina. The

18 rest took to their heels and some took shelter in certain units. As of

19 that moment, they could no longer function as a unit or a group. As of

20 that moment in Zvornik there were basically no paramilitary formations as

21 units and they had no influence over any authorities. The second thing

22 that happened was that immediately following that we held a session of

23 the Municipal Assembly -- let me resume.

24 After that we had a quiet period when the Municipal Assembly

25 could sit in order to fulfil the order of the president to establish

Page 14960

1 functioning civilian municipal organs.

2 Q. Witness, with the arrival of the special unit a new person was

3 appointed the police chief by a decision of the minister of the interior.

4 Did you know that person?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Can you give us an overview or assessment of his work after he

7 assumed his duty?

8 A. I cannot. I did not control or supervise his work. What I do

9 need to say, though, is that from the outset he was simply in a situation

10 which allowed him to organise and staff and equip the MUP of Republika

11 Srpska so that the police could exercise its proper duties. In other

12 words, he was able to pull his men back from the combat activities and

13 duties they had been assigned to earlier on.

14 Q. Were his efforts fruitful? Were there any results?

15 A. One could feel the results immediately. As of that moment on,

16 the police became better and better. They were able to do their job.

17 Another important thing is this, during that period the judiciary became

18 functional, fully functional. As of that moment there were no longer any

19 collection centres run by paramilitaries. As of that moment, those who

20 were detained were either moved to the central prison or to military

21 jails. In other words, they were supervised.

22 Q. Witness, yesterday you discussed with the Prosecutor your

23 decision -- or rather, not your decision but the decision of the Serb

24 municipality of Bratunac to establish -- apologies. Not Bratunac. The

25 Serb municipality --

Page 14961

1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Cvijetic, before you go to another topic, it

2 strikes me that we don't have here on the record the name of that new

3 person that was appointed chief of the police. Can you ask the witness

4 the name of that person.

5 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Witness, you heard the question.

7 A. I think his name was Mico Lokancevic.

8 Q. Mico could be a nickname and his full name could be Milorad?

9 A. Well, we knew him as Mico Lokancevic.

10 Q. Very well.

11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.

12 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. I'm going to remind you now about what you said when talking to

14 the Prosecutor, and you said with the arrival of the units these

15 collection centres were abolished and that the Assembly adopted a

16 decision on the formation of the municipal prison in Zvornik. You

17 mentioned yesterday the adoption of such a decision; is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. However, I think that yesterday you had a difference with the

20 Prosecutor about the date of the adoption of the decision on the

21 establishment of the municipal prison in Zvornik. The Prosecutor said

22 that he didn't have that document on hand at the time. I think I will

23 show you a document that I think is the one. It's 1D04 - we submitted

24 the document for translation - document 2983. And you can see it here.

25 I must admit, my learned friend the Prosecutor is correct. He did refer

Page 14962

1 to this date yesterday, the 19th of August, 1992. So can you correct

2 yourself in that sense, do you agree with these assertions?

3 A. Yes, I do.

4 Q. Is this the document that you discussed with the Prosecutor

5 yesterday about the establishment of the prison?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

9 tender this document. For the moment we can just mark it for

10 identification. We were promised by the translation unit that they would

11 have a translation of it for us by tomorrow.

12 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Hannis.

13 MR. HANNIS: Sorry, no objection, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE HALL: So we'll mark it for identification pending the

15 translation.

16 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1D384, marked for identification,

17 Your Honours.

18 JUDGE HARHOFF: What was the ERN number?

19 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] 0179-8584.

20 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.

21 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 14977

1 know, Witness, if such a court indeed was actually established and ever

2 functioned in Zvornik in 1992?

3 A. I really cannot remember that a court like that existed in

4 Zvornik in 1992.

5 Q. Thank you. Next if we could look at Exhibit P317.6 I believe.

6 It was tab 26 of the Defence binder. Yes.

7 You were shown this document from Colonel Dencic. Item number 1

8 transforms the municipal TO HQ into the command of the Zvornik Infantry

9 Brigade. Number 2 says:

10 "Hand-over or take-over of duty between the TO commander and the

11 newly appointed commander of the infantry brigade is to be carried

12 out ..." on a certain date.

13 Now, we understand -- am I correct in understanding that at that

14 time on the 30th of May, 1992, the Zvornik municipal TO commander was

15 Marko Pavlovic; correct?

16 A. Up until the 30th of May, according to this decision,

17 Marko Pavlovic was the commander. Based on this decision, someone else

18 should have taken over starting on the 30th of May.

19 Q. Yes. And it makes reference to a newly appointed commander of

20 the infantry brigade. Do you know who that person was?

21 A. At one point in Zvornik the brigade commander was

22 Lieutenant-Colonel, I think his name was, Vasilic. Now, whether he was

23 appointed by Dencic or not. I don't know.

24 Q. Do you know what date he held that position?

25 A. I wouldn't know.

Page 14978

1 Q. Item number 3 which gives us information indicating that

2 Marko Pavlovic's true name was Branko Popovic, and it looks like

3 apparently that's something that Colonel Dencic and the East Bosnia Corps

4 knew, but in Zvornik in the municipal government in town you only knew

5 him as Marko Pavlovic; correct? That's the name that appears on the TO

6 pay sheet, et cetera?

7 A. Yes, that's right.

8 Q. Item number 3 says he's to be the officer for liaison with the

9 FRY, with the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. Do you know if

10 Marko Pavlovic actually took up such a position and what the duties

11 involved?

12 A. No, I don't. I don't know it.

13 Q. Wasn't Marko Pavlovic after the 30th of June -- after the 30th of

14 May, 1992, still actively involved in directing some armed forces in

15 Zvornik, for example, in Kozluk in late June?

16 A. During our earlier conversations I was saying that even after the

17 establishment of the Zvornik Brigade, Marko Pavlovic remained in Zvornik

18 for some period of time.

19 Q. And he was involved in directing armed forces; yes?

20 A. I wouldn't know what he was involved in. I don't even know

21 whether this order was implemented fully, because at one point both

22 Marko Pavlovic and Lieutenant-Colonel Vasilic were present in Zvornik.

23 Who was in charge of what, I don't know.

24 Q. Well, you told us yesterday about the people from Djulici who

25 wanted to leave and you'd been involved in those discussions and how you

Page 14979

1 were away when they actually left. You came back and found out that

2 Marko Pavlovic had had the military-aged men taken out of that group of

3 people wanting to leave and detained them, and you had an argument with

4 him about that; right?

5 A. Yes. Yes.

6 MR. HANNIS: Could we look at 1D383.

7 Q. You were also shown this one by Mr. Cvijetic. It's dated I think

8 the 16th of June and it's a provisional government decision on

9 establishment of the single military and territorial command, so some two

10 weeks plus after that document we just looked at. And now the

11 provisional government in item III says that:

12 "Marko Pavlovic has been appointed for commander of this military

13 and territorial command."

14 What is this body that's being talked about? This is not the

15 Zvornik Brigade, is it?

16 A. According to the document, it was not the Zvornik Brigade, but I

17 really don't know what it is.

18 Q. Yeah, item II says:

19 "Organisation, combat-readiness, single command, and combat use

20 of independent formations ..."

21 Do you know who those people were?

22 A. No, I don't.

23 Q. At page 35, line 9, you were asked about the new police [Realtime

24 transcript read in error "political"] chief, Lokancevic's efforts, when

25 he took up the job in August. And you mentioned that you could feel the

Page 14980

1 results immediately and that things got better in Zvornik. You said:

2 "As of that moment those who were detained were either moved to

3 the central prison or to the military jails."

4 But you remember we looked at a document this morning that showed

5 us as of the 10th of September there were still a number of Muslim

6 civilians detained in Divic. Do you remember that?

7 A. Yes, I do remember having been shown that.

8 Q. And do you remember that people actually still were in detention

9 in Divic in September?

10 A. No, I'm sorry. I don't remember that.

11 Q. That's okay. At page 43, line 14, you were asked about the

12 operation carried out to round-up the Yellow Wasps and the other groups

13 in late July 1992. Were you aware that that round-up was conducted not

14 only by Mr. Karisik's special unit but also by members of a special unit

15 of the federal MUP led by Milorad Davidovic, did you know that?

16 A. I found out about that, yes.

17 Q. And did you know it also included members of the VRS --

18 MR. HANNIS: I see Mr. Zecevic on his feet.

19 MR. ZECEVIC: I just wanted to correct the transcript. On page

20 54, 19, it is recorded the new political chief. I think you said the

21 police chief.

22 MR. HANNIS: I think that's clear and we'll leave it at that.

23 Q. I'm sorry, I don't know if you were able to answer my question

24 about whether you know members of the VRS also participated in the

25 round-up of the Yellow Wasps.

Page 14981

1 A. I don't know about the VRS and their role.

2 Q. Lastly I want to ask you about the meeting in Sekovici where you

3 informed Mr. Stanisic and Mr. Mandic about the problems and the crimes

4 that you were aware of that had been taking place in Zvornik. And if I

5 may, I'd like to hand you a hard copy of your statement from 1992 [sic],

6 and if you could -- I've put a little blue sticky on the page where I

7 want you to turn to.

8 Paragraph 130 if you find it.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And in answering Mr. Cvijetic's questions about when that date

11 may have been just earlier this afternoon, you said that you had said it

12 was several weeks and you were now allowing for the possibility that it

13 was in June. But yesterday when I asked you about this at page 14889,

14 line 10, I said:

15 "Q. In terms of the date of the meeting in Sekovici, in your

16 statement in 2002 you indicated it was a few weeks after the start of the

17 war. Is that still -- was that still your memory?"

18 And yesterday you said:

19 "Yes."

20 Do you remember that?

21 A. Several weeks I said.

22 Q. No. I'm reading the transcript. You said "a few weeks."

23 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just to be fair to

24 the witness, he should be presented with all of his answers. He said

25 initially late in May, then he said several weeks -- he didn't say couple

Page 14982

1 of weeks. And my colleague Mr. Zecevic is telling me that it's page

2 14860 page. And then later on he said several weeks. And finally he

3 allowed for the number I put to him. I think the witness should be

4 presented with all the answers he had provided.

5 MR. HANNIS: Well, that would have been good to do on

6 cross-examination as well. And the point I'm asking about is page 14889,

7 which was some 29 pages after the others, after I'd gone through some

8 things with him to try to get him to see if reading his statement

9 refreshed his memory about what he said in 2002, which is where he said

10 "a few weeks."

11 JUDGE HALL: But in any event, I'm lost as to what turns on this,

12 Mr. Hannis.

13 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I don't want to discuss it in front of

14 the witness because he understands a fair bit of English, but I can

15 explain to you why I think it's important and you'll see the Defence

16 thinks it's important too. That's why they spent so much time on it.

17 JUDGE HARHOFF: So, Mr. Witness, how many weeks after the meeting

18 was it?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the first occasion I said

20 "several weeks." However, while giving answers to both sides I was not

21 at the time certain of the date when the events took place. I allowed

22 for the possibility of it having happened in late May or early June, as I

23 was told by the Defence lawyer. But I'm not certain myself. I didn't

24 write it down anywhere. I really cannot say that with any degree of

25 certainty. I wouldn't know what date it was.

Page 14983

1 MR. HANNIS: May I continue or do you want to hear my argument

2 about why I'm spending so much time on this?

3 JUDGE HARHOFF: No, not yet, but I don't think we'll get any

4 closer.

5 JUDGE HALL: [Microphone not activated] -- given the witness's

6 last answer to Judge Harhoff's question, in summary what he has said.

7 MR. HANNIS: Well, in summary, Your Honour, one of the things I

8 need to clear up is his answer just now, he said, "on the first occasion

9 I said 'several weeks.'" I need to ask him what first occasion he's

10 talking about because the first occasion I have a record of is the June

11 2002 statement in which he said "a few weeks."

12 JUDGE HALL: But I'm looking at his answer.

13 "I am not sure myself. I didn't write it down anywhere. I

14 really cannot say with any degree of certainty. I wouldn't know what

15 date it was." Is pressing him going to get us any further on this?

16 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I would like to establish a certain

17 chronology concerning what answers he's made about that and an argument

18 to be made from it, but I don't think I should do it in front of the

19 witness.

20 JUDGE HALL: Well, if you insist, Mr. Hannis.

21 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry, I do, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE HALL: The -- I am looking at the time and I'm wondering

23 how most efficiently to handle this. Should we take the adjournment now

24 and then when we resume the -- have you deal with this before the witness

25 is escorted back to the stand?

Page 14984

1 MR. HANNIS: Either that or we could take him out now and I could

2 speak for 10 or 15 minutes and then we could take the recess and resume

3 with the witness after we've decided how much and to what extent I'm

4 allowed to go further into it.

5 JUDGE HALL: Okay.

6 Well, the latter course.

7 MR. PANTELIC: I really do apologise, Your Honours. If my

8 learned friend Mr. Hannis is intending to speak 10 or 15 minutes, I think

9 it's almost for final arguments not for -- why 15 minutes' discussion?

10 And I really do apologise. I'm a little bit concerned which kind of

11 submissions you will make for 15 minutes.

12 MR. HANNIS: I think Your Honours should wait and hear what I

13 have to say and decide whether five minutes or 10 minutes or 15 minutes

14 is enough.

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 [The witness stands down]

17 JUDGE HALL: Yes, Mr. Hannis.

18 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honours.

19 The reason that the Prosecution views the question of this date

20 is important is that the earlier the date this witness is giving

21 information to the accused Mico Stanisic about crimes being committed in

22 Zvornik, the more important that is because no action was taken in

23 Zvornik until the end of July. And you've heard us say before that that

24 really only took place after Minister Ostojic was taken out by the yellow

25 wasps and put on the ground, not because crimes were happening against

Page 14985

1 non-Serbs and Muslims. I think from the Defence point of view the later

2 it happens and the closer to July the better it is for their position.

3 And what I'm trying to say is when this witness was first asked about the

4 timing of that event in his written statement in 2002 --

5 JUDGE HALL: Yes, but if I may interrupt you there.

6 MR. HANNIS: Yes.

7 JUDGE HALL: I think I see where you're headed. At the end of

8 the day, what the evidence is is the witness's testimony. The fact that

9 on a previous occasion he may -- or on previous occasions he may have

10 given -- been more precise or given different dates doesn't alter the

11 fact that what we are left with is what he says is, "I really cannot, as

12 I testify today, remember what it is." And I don't know that there's

13 provision for either side, in this case what you would be seeking to

14 argue to do, to substitute what he would have said on a previous occasion

15 for his testimony in the box. That's why I ask -- I don't see -- that's

16 why I'm asking what is the point of this exercise in which we're engaged.

17 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour, but in citing that question for

18 yourselves and assessing his credibility, you will look at what he said

19 and when he said it, what his motivation was at that time, what

20 information he had, is his memory better in 2002 as opposed to 2010. And

21 he did say yesterday in a question from me, you indicated it was a few

22 weeks after the start of the war, is that still your memory? He said

23 yes. That's what he said yesterday. And the chronology I'm trying to

24 fill in is that in 2002 he said that in his written statement. In 2003

25 there was a taped interview with the Prosecution. He made no change to

Page 14986

1 it. In proofing with him Friday, when the investigator had proofed him,

2 I specifically asked him about paragraph 130, and you'll -- I think

3 you'll probably get copied on the proofing note, he made no substantive

4 changes to his statement. And then on Saturday he met with Mr. Cvijetic

5 alone for the Defence proofing, and now he's saying, "Oh, maybe it was

6 June, and it was several weeks." No, that's a factor for you to

7 consider.

8 JUDGE HALL: Gentlemen, please.

9 But, Mr. Hannis, with respect, the -- whatever the sequence at

10 the end of the day, aren't we left with a witness -- aren't we left with

11 testimony from the mouth of this witness which is unreliable to the -- in

12 the sense that the -- insofar as this is a point which is of major

13 importance for the Prosecution that the effect of the testimony of this

14 witness is that it is so unreliable the Prosecution must be looking

15 somewhere else in order to establish this fact? And the -- I know what

16 Mr. -- well, I believe I know what Mr. Zecevic and Mr. Cvijetic were

17 about to say, but the -- it isn't necessary for them to respond. I mean,

18 the answer -- the suggestion -- the implication -- the -- what's the rule

19 ? Post hoc ergo propter, you're falling into that trap.

20 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour, but this witness requested

21 protective measures and he told you one of the reasons that he wanted

22 protective measures was because Serbs who testify against Serbs at the

23 Tribunal are viewed as traitors. Set aside -- no suggestion of improper

24 conduct on the part of the Defence. The mere fact that he's here and

25 he's being questioned by Serb attorneys for Serb accused in The Hague is

Page 14987

1 a factor that you may think about whether or not that influences him in

2 answering those questions. That's -- I think that's a legitimate factor

3 for you to consider. And I would just like to put the chronology in the

4 record or at least put in paragraphs 130 and 131 from his statement so

5 you see what he said the first time he was asked it where he had no

6 concern about speaking in court and no reason to be fabricating the date

7 at a point in time that was years closer to the events than we are today.

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 JUDGE HARHOFF: [Microphone not activated]

10 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will try. First of

11 all, it's quite clear the witness is very clear throughout his testimony

12 and in his previous statements he said "several weeks." After that he

13 told Mr. Hannis that this was in May, that it was in late May, he allowed

14 for the possibility that it was in June. And particularly we put it in

15 the context of the liberation of Crni Vrh. So Mr. Hannis can say when

16 the passage was cleared between Zvornik and Sekovici via Crni Vrh, and

17 then we will know that the meeting took place after that date. It's

18 quite simple. So I don't see why -- I really think it's not proper to

19 mistreat the witness even though it's a Prosecution witness.

20 As for all the other situations, the conduct of Serbian lawyers,

21 Serbian witnesses, I really believe that comments like that are

22 inappropriate because if that is the position then what are we going to

23 say because that position can apply to members of other ethnic groups who

24 come to testify here. That means if a person is a Muslim or a Croat,

25 then by the very nature of things, according to what Mr. Hannis says that

Page 14988

1 person would hate Serbs or their testimony should not believed. So I

2 really don't see any consistency in the position of the Prosecution on

3 this matter. Thank you.

4 JUDGE HALL: I agree with you, Mr. Zecevic, that I think that

5 Mr. Hannis's comments in that regard were ill-advised. In the Chamber's

6 view this matter has been taken as far as it can go. No useful purpose

7 would be served by pressing the witness further on this issue.

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 JUDGE HALL: Although it is obviously a live issue as to when the

10 passage was cleared, but as I indicated earlier to the extent that there

11 is controversy on the point of this witness's evidence is imprecise taken

12 at its highest, it is something on which when the time comes for all of

13 the evidence to be stitched together, the -- I would expect that the

14 Chamber would be directed to evidence other than from this witness on

15 that point.

16 So we would take the adjournment now and come back to complete

17 the re-examination of this witness.

18 --- Recess taken at 5.30 p.m.

19 --- On resuming at 5.59 p.m.

20 MR. HANNIS: Your Honours, I asked to address you before the

21 witness was brought in because I want you to know, Your Honours, and,

22 Mr. President, that I take to heart your comment about my comments being

23 ill-advised, and I apologise to my colleagues across the way if I gave

24 offence. I didn't mean to. By analogy the point I was trying to make in

25 America in a civil rights prosecution of a police officer for excessive

Page 14989

1 use of force, a police officer who comes in to testify against a fellow

2 police officer, when meeting with lawyers for that police officer,

3 it's -- the best-behaved defence attorney can do everything properly, but

4 that witness feels a subtle coercion, maybe self-induced coercion, but to

5 be in a position of testifying against his fellow police officer or an

6 American testifying against an American in a non-American Tribunal with

7 non-American prosecutors on the other side. There is, I think, in real

8 life it's human nature to feel a certain coercion and that's the point I

9 was trying to make. And I do apologise to my friends and Your Honours.

10 I wanted to make that statement to you.

11 And with that, I'm ready to have the witness back in. I

12 understand that you said you don't want me to press him any further on

13 this, but I would like to bring out some of the things he said in his

14 statement 2002 that I think is information that may relate to the

15 argument about when the date occurred that -- I would just like to

16 confirm that he said it then, and I can make my arguments at a later

17 date. I'm not trying to harass him. I'm just trying to get that

18 information in the record about what he said to those present, who was

19 present, when Mr. Zugic showed up in the municipality later on,

20 et cetera.

21 JUDGE HARHOFF: And, if I may add, the point raised by counsel

22 Zecevic that the dates or the time when the passage was cleared is also

23 of some importance to this issue. So if you would wish to raise this

24 also with the witness.

25 MR. HANNIS: It is, Your Honour, but I don't know how far I can

Page 14990

1 get with him on that because I think he's not clear on when that date

2 was. And that's something that hopefully there will be other evidence

3 from other sources.

4 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, in the spirit of co-operation that we

5 have so far in this case, I understand the -- and I of course accept the

6 apology of Mr. Hannis. I know him for quite some time, so I know that he

7 really didn't meant what he actually said on the record.

8 However, I believe Your Honours have ruled on this, and I don't

9 see that we can go now with the -- through another passage or another

10 road around -- around about in order to get to the very same issue

11 because again we are going to be faced with the same problem. Thank you.

12 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, just for the record, Your Honours, one of the

13 golden rules of cross-examination is to know when to stop, among other

14 rules. And unfortunately, my learned friend Mr. Hannis didn't stop. So

15 in his just earlier explanations, he even went further on. My personal

16 position is the following. I do not accept his apologies, point number

17 one. Point number two, I will go through the ADC organs to inform his

18 chief Prosecutor about his behaviour and to take necessary measures

19 because I cannot accept this kind of swinging and then shifting

20 explanations. Thank you.

21 JUDGE HALL: Could we have the witness returned to the --

22 escorted back to the stand. If there is no one in the gallery, I don't

23 know that we have to go through the ritual of lowering the shades.

24 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

25 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Hannis, while the witness is on his way in,

Page 14994

1 it says there and tell us if that refreshes your recollection about when

2 you noticed Mr. Zugic in Zvornik for the first time.

3 A. In the statement I said that he arrived in late May 1992.

4 Q. Do you have any reason to disagree with that now?

5 A. How do you mean? In what sense? I didn't quite understand.

6 Q. Anything you've seen or read or heard since then that makes you

7 think it's some different date other than late May?

8 A. Well, I said that I'm not sure absolutely about the dates. I

9 cannot be sure now that those are the dates, but I'm sure that he came

10 after that meeting. I don't know what is important there, whether for me

11 to remember what day it was. I cannot remember.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 MR. HANNIS: I have no further questions, Your Honour.

14 Questioned by the Court:

15 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you. Mr. Witness, I have a couple of short

16 questions to you. And one of the questions that I have relate to the

17 testimony that you gave us about the curfew in Zvornik at the time. A

18 document was introduced to you by Mr. Cvijetic, and I think it was

19 assigned Exhibit 1D377, and I would ask the Registrar to bring it up on

20 the screen. Thank you.

21 Do you recall the document, Mr. Witness?

22 A. I don't recall the document, but I said that the decision

23 existed. I don't remember this document in this form, but I do recall

24 that a decision was adopted.

25 JUDGE HARHOFF: Very well. My question goes to the

Page 14995

1 implementation of this decision, and I would like you to explain to us --

2 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just for the

3 witness, he isn't able to see the decision that you're talking about on

4 his monitor. Perhaps it can be put up again on the screen so he can see.

5 JUDGE HARHOFF: I agree, Mr. Cvijetic, and thank you because also

6 in the English version it's the wrong document that came up. Yes, this

7 is the right document dealing with the curfew.

8 Mr. Witness, what I'm interested in is if you could tell us how

9 this curfew was implemented in practice, can you recall?

10 A. I was at the Crisis Staff until the 10th of April for two days

11 longer was I a member of the Crisis Staff. So this wasn't even begun to

12 be implemented. The implementation of the decision began only after the

13 Serbian forces entered Zvornik, and I think that it was implemented by

14 the mixed composition, meaning the Territorial Defence and policemen. I

15 think there were also soldiers participating. I think that's how it was.

16 JUDGE HARHOFF: Do you recall from your own experience at the

17 time how the curfew was implemented in practice? I mean, were people

18 really prevented from getting out of their houses from 9.00 in the

19 evening until 5.00 the next morning?

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted). But I have to say generally the people avoided going out at

23 night of their own accord, not that someone was preventing them from

24 doing so. At any point during the day there were armed people in the

25 streets monitoring the citizens. For example, at one time during the day

Page 14996

1 two people in military uniforms came up to me and they asked to see my

2 documents. I remember that.

3 JUDGE HARHOFF: And for what purpose would they do that?

4 A. Just to check my identity. At least that's how I understood it.

5 Do you have ID? Where do you live? That kind of thing.

6 JUDGE HARHOFF: And what were they looking for? Who were they

7 looking for in particular? Why would they be interested in your

8 identity?

9 A. Probably they were ordered to do that, to patrol the streets and

10 to check the IDs of people, to check who was out in the streets.

11 JUDGE HARHOFF: Do you know if any permissions to exit your house

12 after 9.00 and between 5.00 in the morning were issued to particular

13 groups of people?

14 A. I cannot remember. I'm not sure about that. I couldn't confirm

15 that, no. I'm not ruling out that this did happen.

16 JUDGE HARHOFF: And was the curfew to your knowledge applied

17 equally to Serbs as well as to non-Serbs in Zvornik?

18 A. May I answer?

19 JUDGE HARHOFF: Yes, please.

20 A. These things applied to everything, to everyone.

21 JUDGE HARHOFF: Yes, that's what we can see on the screen, that

22 it applies without distinction to all citizens. But my question to you

23 is rather if you know whether it was also applied in practice equally to

24 everyone.

25 A. I think that it was very dangerous for people in that period,

Page 14997

1 that April, for people who were recognised or identified as Muslims, they

2 could have been checked in the sense of their IDs could have been checked

3 or they could have been taken to some other place for a greater degree of

4 control. But there is another problem here, if I may be permitted to

5 continue. In that time the problem was that other than the organs which

6 you could say had some degree of legal basis, the TO and similar, there

7 were also persons from unknown units, from unknown forces who started

8 setting up check-points, paramilitary check-points, who were doing checks

9 of the population of their own accord. That was the big problem.

10 JUDGE HARHOFF: Now that you raise it, your testimony begs the

11 question of whether the paramilitary units that were manning these

12 check-points were also required to withdraw at 9.00 p.m. every day and

13 not show up until 5.00 the next morning. Do you recall how that was?

14 Were the check-points empty and not manned during the night-times?

15 A. In the beginning the check-points in town were functioning I

16 think. I personally, for example, went out at night rarely, so I really

17 couldn't tell you where they were, how many. But I think that there were

18 check-points in town. I think that at the beginning of May all the

19 check-points were removed, the Territorial Defence dismantled them all

20 but couldn't dismantle the ones that were at exit points of the

21 municipality that were on the outer edges of the area.

22 JUDGE HARHOFF: I see. Could I just get back to your testimony

23 to me just a short while ago, where you said that people who had been

24 recognised or identified as Muslims could be taken to some other place

25 for a greater degree of control. Did you mean to say that this was a

Page 14998

1 practice that was applied only to non-Serbs?

2 A. Well, I heard of several cases where people were literally taken

3 from the street, but this was never done by members of the police or the

4 regular forces of the Territorial Defence; this was done by the

5 paramilitaries. For many people it was never known what their fate was.

6 Some were picked up on the street, some at the check-points. In the

7 Zvornik municipality this was a period of considerable lawlessness and a

8 period when the paramilitary forces were stronger than anyone else.

9 JUDGE HARHOFF: This brings me to the second question that I

10 wanted to put to you. You testified earlier this afternoon that in

11 response to questions put to you by Counsel Cvijetic that Zvornik was, so

12 to say, had become a state in the state. And I think this was indeed the

13 point that counsel wanted to establish. And I would wish you to

14 elaborate a little more on this point because what I understood from your

15 testimony is that there was, as you have just said, a considerable degree

16 of lawlessness in the early days after the 8th of April, 1992, in Zvornik

17 and that the arrival of paramilitary units that acted more or less on

18 their own authority tended to create this situation of lawlessness. So

19 it was very much a de facto situation in which it was difficult to keep

20 control of what was happening in Zvornik and surrounding areas.

21 But to say that there was lawlessness in the streets of Zvornik

22 and then from that fact to conclude that Zvornik had become a state in

23 the state seems to me to be two versions that are quite far apart,

24 because even if there were lawlessness in the streets there still might

25 have been a state and the Republika Srpska had already been established.

Page 14999

1 And maybe it had difficulties in controlling the activities in all the

2 areas within its territory, but it certainly hadn't disappeared. And I

3 guess that even though there was lawlessness in the streets of Zvornik,

4 the authorities of Zvornik would still recognise the authority of the

5 Republika Srpska, would they not?

6 So my question to you is really: Can you describe in some more

7 detail exactly what you mean when you said that Zvornik had become a

8 state in the state? And what I'm particularly interested in is not only

9 the factual situation but also the legal situation, if you can provide us

10 with an appreciation of this.

11 A. The entire series of documents that we could see today and

12 yesterday indicate that the municipality was practically cut off from the

13 centre, that it didn't have communication with the centre, that it didn't

14 have anything to rely on in terms of internal organisation. And that

15 practically there was a lot of chaos and lawlessness, there was war all

16 around, a lot of shooting, everyone was armed, the majority was armed,

17 and there were many groups acting on their own. And it was very

18 difficult to control them. The Crisis Staff which transformed into the

19 temporary government was attempting to strengthen the Territorial Defence

20 which the temporary government tried later by appointing a commander and

21 issuing other orders practically from the inside without contact with the

22 military or Republika Srpska. Regulations were adopted ranging from how

23 to pay out retirement benefits, how to establish courts, how to finance

24 people who were in the Territorial Defence, and even under pressure the

25 paramilitaries were paid as well because the temporary government had to

Page 15000

1 do that as well, care for the refugees. So there was a vacuum, empty

2 space where the state was unable to intervene. Why? Because the state

3 itself was out there. Republika Srpska didn't have a history of 20 or 30

4 years back; it was created in three or four months. It was all blank.

5 This person from the Ministry of Internal Affairs wasn't able to send

6 somebody to help or the one from the army because they didn't have those

7 things.

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted). So somebody would be working there incognito without

25 being appointed for that particular post.

Page 15001

1 So I don't know if you understand me, if I'm being quite clear,

2 and that is why I said this about Zvornik. But it wasn't only Zvornik.

3 There were many municipalities that were like a state within a state

4 because the municipalities were left to themselves. Up until the moment

5 that the central government managed to organise itself, to organise the

6 army, to set up the ministries, and then to embark on action; before

7 that, this wasn't possible.

8 JUDGE HARHOFF: I see and you have explained it very well. I

9 just wanted to ensure that when you said that Zvornik was a state within

10 the state, that this did not mean that there was any attempt from Zvornik

11 to denounce the authority of the Republika Srpska and to become

12 independent and not -- no longer wishing to obey the orders or the

13 instructions that came out of the Republika Srpska. That was not the

14 case. It was a practical deficiency, if I understand you correctly?

15 A. Not only practical deficiency. I've just explained to you that

16 the RS itself had been created only a few months earlier. So there was

17 no continuity. We're not talking about a state that had been there for a

18 while, that had laws, institutions, that were all functioning well, and

19 so on. We were all in a vacuum and nobody knew what to do in practice.

20 April was a month of utter lawlessness and chaos.

21 JUDGE HARHOFF: And for approximately how long did this situation

22 last? You mentioned several dates, end of May, July, August. How -- I

23 know it's difficult because it was probably a phase in which the

24 lawlessness gradually was phased out, but can you clarify a bit if you

25 can.