110415IT

Page 19650

1 JUDGE HALL: Can you hear me now? In which case I --

2 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

3 JUDGE HALL: So I would remind you that you're still on your

4 oath, sir.

5 Cross-examination by Mr. Zecevic: [Continued]

6 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Bjelosevic, could we please look at document

7 1D46, tab -- oh, I see, I'm sorry.

8 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry. Mr. Usher, can I ask you for ...

9 [Interpretation] Tab 47. The document is 1D46.

10 Q. Mr. Bjelosevic, a few questions -- a few questions before we

11 comment on this document.

12 You have a degree in National Defence, a university degree;

13 right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. I think that you told us that for nine or ten years you worked at

16 the Secretariat for National Defence.

17 A. Seven years.

18 Q. During the war, you said that you spent some time in the

19 military. Tell me, do you hold some rank in the military?

20 A. In 1991, I was promoted to the rank of captain first class. That

21 is my military rank. And at the end of the war, I was a colonel of the

22 police.

23 Q. However, at that time in 1992, there were no ranks in the police

24 force; right?

25 A. No. In 1992, no. But later on they were introduced.

Page 19651

1 Q. When you said "captain first class," did you mean reserve captain

2 first class?

3 A. Yes, reserve captain first class. That is to say, I was not an

4 active-duty officer; rather, I was a reserve captain.

5 Q. Thank you. Sir, please take a look at the document in front of

6 you. This is a document dated the 15th of May, 1992. It is an order

7 signed by the minister of the interior, Mico Stanisic.

8 Tell me, had you received this order in 1992?

9 A. Yes. I mentioned that yesterday; this document, among others.

10 That is what the members of Parliament brought to me from Pale when they

11 attended the Assembly meeting there, when they flew on that helicopter.

12 We received this document, this order.

13 Q. Tell me, Mr. Bjelosevic -- actually, could you give us your

14 comments on paragraph 7 and 8 of this order? Tell us how you see them

15 and understand them. That is page 2 of the document.

16 A. What is being ordered here -- or, rather, what is being stated

17 here is what should be done; namely, that the use of ministry units in

18 co-ordinated actions with the armed forces can be ordered by the minister

19 of the interior, the commander of the police detachment of the ministry,

20 and the chief of the CSB.

21 I have to note that at that point in time we did not have any

22 communication whatsoever. I'm actually referring to May and June. This

23 order dates back to May. We did not have any communication whatsoever

24 with the minister or the ministry. However, this document was something

25 that we went by.

Page 19652

1 It was pointed out here that when carrying out combat actions the

2 units of the ministry should be subordinated to the command of the armed

3 forces; however, the ministry units shall be under the direct command of

4 a designated ministry official. That was in accordance with the

5 Law on Defence. And you can see here that the minister, himself, is

6 observing the law and issuing instructions on that basis.

7 Paragraph 8 speaks of regular duties and tasks. And what is

8 called for is the strict observance of the Law on the Ministry of the

9 Interior and other relevant regulations. And as for the military,

10 military regulations and rules should be enforced, which is fully in

11 accordance with the then relevant law.

12 Q. Just a few questions, if I may. Could you please explain to us

13 what this means, because if I understood you correctly, you actually

14 carried this out in practice. What does it mean when units of the

15 ministry are under the direct command of designated officials from the

16 ministry, in accordance with paragraph 7?

17 A. That means that if the police was supposed to be used on the

18 basis of an order, and we already said that the military commanders had

19 the right to issue such orders, then a company is established. A

20 commander of that company is appointed from the ranks of the police.

21 However, such companies, together with their commanders, once they go out

22 to carry out an assignment, they are under the command of a

23 higher-ranking command, say a battalion. The battalion has its own

24 command. However, again, they are subordinated to the higher military

25 command whose tasks they carry out and whose organic structure they

Page 19653

1 belong to.

2 Q. [Microphone not activated]

3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

4 MR. ZECEVIC: [Microphone not activated]

5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

6 MR. ZECEVIC: Sorry. Thank you, Your Honours.

7 Q. [Interpretation] Does that mean that the commander of that police

8 unit - let's say it's a company - is then subordinated to the command of

9 that battalion, part of which the unit had become?

10 A. Precisely. Let me try to be even clearer.

11 I have already mentioned that a few times I was appointed

12 commander, myself. For Operation Corridor, they established ad hoc

13 troops for me. It was not a set wartime unit. There were four companies

14 of the police, or "milicija," within it. Every company was headed by a

15 commander who was a police officer. I also had a military police

16 company, and this military police company had a commander of their own

17 who was an officer. I also had two companies of the Krajina police.

18 Every one of those companies had its own commander, and I was the

19 commander of them all.

20 However, I, as the commander of that formation, was subordinated

21 to the command of the tactical group. That is to say that we all

22 operated in accordance with plans and orders issued by Tactical Group 3

23 at that point in time. I assume that it is well known that the army is

24 established according to the principle of subordination and singleness of

25 command.

Page 19654

1 Q. Sir, I would like to invite you to comment upon the last part of

2 the sentence in bullet point 8, where it says that military rules and

3 regulations are applied in military operations. Can you explain that?

4 A. Bullet point 7 or 8?

5 Q. Eight.

6 A. "Any violation of regulations and failure to carry out tasks

7 which have been ordered shall be subject to severe punishment ..."

8 Q. No, I meant the first paragraph in bullet point 8, the last

9 sentence, where it says.

10 "... whereas in military operations, military regulations and

11 rules shall be enforced."

12 A. Yes, that's how it was. From that moment when the police is

13 deployed in combat, it represents an element of the armed forces and is

14 subject to all rules and possible disciplinary measures applied by the

15 military, because they are engaged in combat by the military.

16 Q. Thank you. Let us now look at 1D406, tab 58.

17 A. Yes, I can see that.

18 The Command of the 1st Krajina Corps, Duga Njiva

19 Forward Command Post, the same one that we talked about yesterday. This

20 is a commander's order.

21 Q. Mr. Bjelosevic, before the 30th of June, did you spend some time

22 at that forward command post in Duga Njiva?

23 A. Yes. Once -- when my combat force was dismantled, I was there.

24 Q. Can we please look at page 2, the third and second paragraph from

25 the bottom. And the sentence starts with: "The exclusive right of

Page 19655

1 command ..."

2 A. "The zone commander shall have the exclusive right of command, as

3 per this order. In the conduct of combat activities, all police forces

4 shall be placed under the command of the zone commander, who shall decide

5 how they are used."

6 I'm absolutely clear about the contents of this document, and I

7 believe that the order is clear. In the army, orders are usually

8 formulated so as to be clear.

9 It says here that the commander of the zone shall have the

10 exclusive right to use the units in his zone. And it says here that all

11 police forces shall be placed under the command of the zone commander,

12 who shall decide how they are used. And this is also clear, and this is

13 even more precise, and this is exactly how we operated.

14 Q. In your opinion, was that in keeping with the regulations that

15 were in effect at the time?

16 A. Fully. Fully in compliance with the rules that were in effect at

17 the time.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at 1D -- D1552.

20 That's tab 105.

21 Q. Sir, this was sent on the 7th of September, 1992, by the

22 command of Tactical Group 3. This is an order to attack. The order was

23 signed by Colonel Slavko Lisica. Are you familiar with this document?

24 MS. KORNER: Can I have the tab number again? I'm sorry.

25 MR. ZECEVIC: 105, 105. 65 ter -- Defence 65 ter 552D1. It is

Page 19656

1 the document that we have on the screen.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I'm familiar with this

3 document because the Command of Tactical Group 3 regularly copied us with

4 the orders that concerned the police. Sometimes they were sent in their

5 integral form, sometimes in the form of excerpts. In any case, we

6 received those orders regularly. Therefore, I am familiar with this one.

7 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. When you say "to us," who do you have in mind?

9 A. I mean the centre and the public security stations.

10 Q. I would like to invite your comment upon bullet point 5.2 or

11 paragraph 5, bullet point 2.

12 A. The Doboj police battalion is attacking, and then the topographic

13 features are set out. Yes, an order is hereby issued by the police

14 battalion to engage in attack.

15 Q. Tell me: Mr. Lisica, the commander of Tactical Group 3 at the

16 time, was he also the commander of the zone?

17 A. Yes. Let's be very clear on this.

18 Every unit is assigned its zone of responsibility.

19 Tactical Group 3 was assigned its own zone of responsibility. Therefore,

20 whatever was happening in the area of responsibility of Tactical Group 3

21 was within the purview of the command and the commander of that zone. In

22 this case, they would be Tactical Group 3.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Unless there are objections, I

25 would like to tender the document into evidence.

Page 19657

1 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.

2 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 1D468, Your Honours.

3 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Mr. Bjelosevic, can we now look at 196D1,

5 tab 59. [Microphone not activated]

6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.

7 JUDGE HALL: Microphone, Mr. Zecevic.

8 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry.

9 Q. [Interpretation] The document was issued on the

10 3rd of July, 1992. In the heading, you can see that it was drafted by

11 the Ministry of the Interior, Security Services Centre Doboj. The

12 typed-up signature is that of Andrija Bjelosevic. There is also a stamp.

13 Is this your document? Can you confirm that this is your

14 document, and can you also tell us what the document refers to?

15 A. Yes. This is a document that I drafted, that I created. It

16 bears a stamp and my signature. I signed it. And let me explain how the

17 document came about and when it was drafted.

18 On the 1st of July, I was injured and driven from Teslic to a

19 hospital, and I signed this document in hospital. My associates paid me

20 visits while I was in hospital. And since we had plenty of time to

21 engage in discussions, we did that. I was under a strong impression of

22 what I had seen and experienced in Teslic, and I talked with my

23 associates about their own impressions with regard to the work of the

24 police, and so on and so forth.

25 And then I ordered them to go and inspect those units which were

Page 19658

1 still units, not regulated police stations. That's how the police were

2 deployed. And we could already get in contact with Modrica and Derventa.

3 And they inspected all those areas, they collected information, and they

4 put me abreast of the situation, so I could understand from that that the

5 police did, indeed, act illegally, and the order is a result of that.

6 I'm ordering the police to start the training regarding the use

7 of authority, particularly regarding the use of force, and I also

8 emphasised that the use of force had -- truncheons and fire-arms had to

9 be used according to the rules. And I drew special attention to the

10 conditions for the necessity to justify the use of force.

11 Q. Could you please explain how the use of force is justified in the

12 Ministry of the Interior? What rules and regulations are used for that?

13 How is that regulated?

14 A. That was regulated by the law and the regulations that were both

15 in force, and I'm referring to both of them in this order, the

16 regulations on service in the enforcement agencies. That means that if

17 the police issued an order and if that order was not obeyed by the person

18 who was caught in committing crimes or they had already committed a crime

19 and they are resisting arrest, then the use of force is in order, which

20 can include restraining or the use of truncheons. And in the most

21 drastic cases, when the lives of the police officers or other citizens

22 were at risk, in keeping with those regulations, the police officer had

23 the right to use fire-arms.

24 If only physical force was used, then, obviously, police officers

25 had to write a report about the physical force having been used, when it

Page 19659

1 was used, and why, and that report was read and taken under the

2 advisement by the chief of the police station. If other means of force

3 were used, like, for example, truncheons or, God forbid, fire-arms, then

4 the police officers who had used those had to report to the chief of the

5 Security Services Centre. The policeman would write a report, the report

6 would then be inspected first by the commander of his police station, and

7 then the report would be sent to the chief of the Security Services

8 Centre. When the report was put in the context of the prevailing

9 regulations, he could judge whether the use of force had been justified

10 or not. In practice, I encountered both situations.

11 In Petrovo, in my view, the use of fire-arms was not justified,

12 and that policeman who used fire-arms was sentenced to a prison sentence.

13 Q. You have given us an example in your last sentence. If you, as

14 the chief of the Security Services Centre, deemed that the use of force

15 or additional forms, including fire-arms, was not justified, what

16 measures could be taken?

17 A. A criminal report is filed against the policeman who used that

18 force and sent to an investigating judge, because at that time in 1992,

19 investigations were conducted by investigative judges.

20 Q. And what about the Ministry of the Interior; were measures taken

21 by the ministry or not? I'm talking about disciplinary measures.

22 A. Absolutely. When criminal proceedings were initiated, the

23 subject of those criminal proceedings would be suspended until the end of

24 those criminal proceedings. If the person was found guilty and charged,

25 then the measure would be pronounced. And if he was acquitted, in that

Page 19660

1 case his job would be reinstated and he would suffer no other

2 consequences or disciplinary measures.

3 Q. Please comment on the penultimate sentence of the document. It

4 concerns who this order shall not be applied to.

5 A. It was not supposed to be applied to those parts of the police

6 which were included in immediate combat.

7 Q. Can you tell us why this was inserted in your order and for what

8 reason?

9 A. I think the reason was already explained, but I will repeat.

10 The police, if used in the exercise of combat tasks, it was

11 re-subordinated to the army and respective military commands. It was

12 considered part of the armed forces, and military regulations were

13 applied.

14 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] There seems to be a problem with

15 the translation of this document. The CLSS translation seems to be

16 faulty.

17 Q. Could you please read out that sentence slowly from the document.

18 A. "This order shall not apply to parts of the police which are

19 involved in actual war operations."

20 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.

21 Looking at the English translation, the double negative was

22 somewhat confusing, and --

23 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes. It's obviously a mistake, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE HALL: Yes. So I suppose the document should be referred

25 back to CLSS for --

Page 19661

1 MR. ZECEVIC: That is what I intend to do.

2 JUDGE HALL: Yes, thank you.

3 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

4 If there is no objection, I seek to tender this document; MFI'd,

5 though, pending a revised translation.

6 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I said yesterday, in order to prevent

7 me having to get up each time and ask whether this was a document

8 provided by this witness, I could be provided with a list. I was told I

9 would be. I haven't been yet. Am I going to be provided with a list?

10 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, I thought it was already done, because I

11 gave the instructions that the whole list will be provided to you.

12 MS. KORNER: All right.

13 MR. ZECEVIC: I was told that this document is both from the

14 disclosure from the Office of the Prosecutor and we received it from the

15 witness as well.

16 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

17 JUDGE HALL: So it's marked for identification, pending the

18 translation.

19 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 1D469, marked for identification,

21 Your Honours.

22 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we look at 5531D. That is

23 tab 106. It is a document of the Command of the Tactical Group 3, dated

24 the 8th of September, 1992, signed by Colonel Lisica, commander, at least

25 his name appears in the signature block.

Page 19662

1 Q. Can you tell us whether you are familiar with this order and what

2 it pertains to?

3 A. Yes, I am familiar with this order by Commander Lisica. As

4 usual, military orders are clear, and so is this one. The commander, or

5 the TG-3 Command, introduces military administration in the municipality

6 of Derventa. Military organs' orders are the only orders to be

7 implemented.

8 Prior to this document, there already had been a military

9 administration in Derventa, but the commander, if I recall correctly, was

10 Jankovic, I believe. Here we have another person being appointed, which

11 is Captain First Class Pero Stojakovic. I think the order is perfectly

12 clear. And it is legitimate.

13 Q. Can you clarify what such an introduction of a military

14 administration means, or setting up a town command, if you know?

15 A. By way of introducing a military administration, a town commander

16 is appointed, as we can see here when Captain First Class Pero Stojakovic

17 was appointed. And he, in turn, chooses a number of associates of his to

18 help him with the exercise of his duties in respect of fields or areas.

19 As the order mentions, the command decides on a whole range of

20 things, meaning the commander is in charge and there is a military

21 administration in place.

22 Q. When you say that they decide on a range of things or they decide

23 about everything, can you be more precise?

24 A. You can clearly see that in item 3. It reads:

25 "The commander of the defence of Derventa is responsible for and

Page 19663

1 has the duty to regulate, together with his organs, life and work, and

2 everyone is expected to comply with his orders and instructions."

3 There seems to be a grammatical error, but in any case, his

4 instructions. It is as it says. This includes the entire population,

5 and he was in charge of organising life and work in the area.

6 If I may, I wish to remind the Chamber, or perhaps help them

7 understand the situation better, of something that one needs to bear in

8 mind.

9 Part of the municipality of Derventa was still at war. It had

10 not been liberated by that time. And the town had been destroyed and

11 parts of it set ablaze. The infrastructure was in ruin, and people were

12 trying to get back to their homes. It was a situation of chaos. That is

13 why the commander decided to introduce a military administration, in

14 order to deal with the situation as efficiently as possible, so that

15 people would not return any which way and that chaos would not prevail.

16 Q. Such an introduction of a military administration, what impact,

17 if any, does it have on the work of the police and the Ministry of the

18 Interior?

19 A. Officially speaking, there had already been a public security

20 station in Derventa by that time. The building where it was housed was

21 torched. Only the walls were left, and the rest was destroyed, including

22 all the documents. For the initial period of time, the police station

23 was situated in the local primary school, and later on it was transferred

24 to the Institute for the Blind. Basically, they started from scratch,

25 although they did have a number of personnel.

Page 19664

1 On top of that, Commander Lisica issued an order by which he sent

2 all police personnel from Derventa to combat. By virtue of this same

3 order, he introduced a police force from Prnjavor, and he tasked them

4 with policing in the town itself. He justified that decision by his need

5 to -- of the Derventa population to gain greater confidence in the

6 Derventa police force, and that is why he said he sent them to combat,

7 because he believed they would enjoy greater respect with the population

8 once they returned.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] If there is no objection, I seek to

11 tender this document into evidence.

12 JUDGE HALL: This relates exclusively to Derventa. Why should it

13 be exhibited?

14 MR. ZECEVIC: Well --

15 MS. KORNER: To save -- Your Honours, we don't object, and we say

16 we can see it's relevant, and we're going to be dealing with it. In

17 fact, I think it came in in an earlier -- under an earlier witness, at

18 some stage.

19 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 1D470 [Realtime transcript read in

21 error "170"], Your Honours.

22 MR. ZECEVIC: I think the number should be 1D470.

23 THE REGISTRAR: That is correct.

24 MR. ZECEVIC: It was recorded something differently in the

25 transcript. I'm sorry.

Page 19665

1 [Interpretation] Could we look at 1D407, MFI, which is tab 109.

2 Q. Mr. Bjelosevic, in this document it says "Security Services

3 Centre Doboj." The date is the 10th of September, 1992, and in the

4 signature block we see "Andrija Bjelosevic," with a stamp and signature.

5 Can you confirm whether this is your document and what it

6 pertains to?

7 A. Yes. I signed it and sent it to the public security stations.

8 If you look at the introduction, you can conclude what it has to do with.

9 It was issued based on an order of the operational group.

10 By this time, the situation was somewhat improved in the area,

11 although I must repeat that still the situation was quite chaotic. There

12 were masses of exiled population, people moving about in uniform,

13 thousands upon thousands of refugees. They arrived in uniform, with

14 weapons, looking for a place to stay for themselves and their families.

15 The front-lines were in immediate vicinity, and the area was daily

16 shelled by enemy artillery.

17 Those people who came in uniform resembled members of the army,

18 whereas many of them did not belong to any military units. They were

19 trying or looking for ways to deal with their own refugee situation. In

20 doing so, they frequently resorted to violence. They looked for goods,

21 something that they could live on. They looked for a place for their

22 family to stay.

23 Once we diagnosed the problem, stronger controls were required in

24 order to have all the people moving about in uniform who were not members

25 of certain units and those who did not have their wartime disposition and

Page 19666

1 who were not on leave, to have their uniforms taken away, seized, and

2 returned. That is why we ordered more stringent controls at

3 check-points.

4 Q. Thank you for your clarification. I can see that the document

5 speaks for itself. I'm interested in the introduction. We see that the

6 order of the operational group is attached.

7 Since you were forwarding that order, did you expect the public

8 security stations to implement that operational group order? And if so,

9 on what basis?

10 A. Yes. On the basis of order-issuing authority, on the basis of

11 the fact that it is the area of responsibility of the command that had

12 issued the order.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could this document not be marked

15 for identification any longer, because the previous witness could not

16 deal with it, the previous witness who it had been shown to.

17 JUDGE HALL: So we would remove the MFI qualification.

18 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, just for the record, this is

20 Exhibit 1D407.

21 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] 2291D [as interpreted]; that is,

22 tab 127. Could we please have a look at that document. Could we please

23 have page 2. [Microphone not activated]

24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

25 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry.

Page 19667

1 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, this is a document of the Doboj CSB. The

2 date is the 21st of September, 1992. It is sent to the Command of the

3 Operations Group of the Serb Army in Doboj. On the third page, we see

4 the name of "Andrija Bjelosevic, Chief of Centre," typed out, and we see

5 a signature.

6 Can you confirm for us, Mr. Bjelosevic, that this is your

7 document, and can you please explain what this is all about? Can you

8 explain what it is that you were asking for by way of this document?

9 A. The document was signed by me; that is to say, I signed this

10 document. It is sent to the Command of the Operations Group of Doboj.

11 And we are asking for certain persons, those listed under numbers 1

12 through 14, to be freed from the military and sent to a course for police

13 training that was organised from the 21st of September, 1992, onwards.

14 As far as I can remember, the command allowed us to do this, and they

15 freed these persons so that they could attend the course. The

16 Public Security Station of Maglaj was in Jablanica, and that is where

17 this happened.

18 Q. Tell me, there is a reference to these 14 candidates here, and it

19 says at the moment they are in the Serbian Army. These 14 candidates,

20 were they reserve policemen?

21 A. There were reserve policemen among them, but there were also

22 others who were subsequently asked for within this number but who had not

23 been policemen to begin with. So there were both.

24 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, I'm sorry, that was a horribly leading

25 question, because it's exactly the point that needed to be clarified by

Page 19668

1 way of a non-leading question.

2 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] I do apologise. My mistake. It's

3 to my own detriment, isn't it?

4 Q. Mr. Bjelosevic, if some persons who are members of the police are

5 serving in the military at a given point in time, what possibilities do

6 you have, as chief of the CSB, in relation to such persons?

7 A. This is a situation that we had in the territory of several

8 police stations; Derventa, among others. I am pointing it out with good

9 reason, because the entire police personnel in Derventa at one point in

10 time quite literally joined the army. They were re-subordinated to the

11 army. As a matter of fact, they didn't even operate as a separate unit,

12 headed by their own commander. They were deployed in different units.

13 Some were deployed in the scouts units, some in the military police, some

14 were -- well, the military police also had a crime investigation

15 department, so some of them were deployed there too.

16 When Derventa was liberated, when the Public Security Station

17 there was established, there were major problems involved in order to

18 have the command allow us to enable all the policemen to return to the

19 Public Security Station. They did not have sufficient personnel either,

20 so little by little they let them go, they let them return to the police

21 station.

22 Q. And what were your possibilities in terms of reacting to that

23 situation?

24 A. I could write, asking for them to be freed from the military and

25 asking for approval to be given for them to return to the police station.

Page 19669

1 Q. Did you say "I could write," or did you say that you could not

2 write?

3 A. I said I could write. I could write and ask for that.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please look at 556D1,

6 tab 128.

7 MS. KORNER: Do you want that exhibited?

8 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, I thought that you, Ms. Korner, would object.

9 Well, if not, then I would gladly have that exhibited.

10 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 1D471, Your Honours.

12 MR. ZECEVIC: Just for the record, 65 ter Defence 229D1 is 1D471.

13 Thank you.

14 [Interpretation] 556D1, could we have that document, please,

15 tab 128A.

16 Q. Mr. Bjelosevic, yet again, this is an order of the command of

17 Tactical Group 3 from Banja Luka on the 23rd of September, 1992. On

18 page 2, there is a signature of the commander, Colonel Lisica. Since

19 this is a copy from a book, there is another document that follows after

20 this one.

21 Are you familiar with this document, sir?

22 A. Yes. This is an order for further combat operations. And it is

23 clear from this order that this task was being issued to the combat group

24 of the police, the "milicija" as well, that was engaged under the command

25 of Tactical Group 3. It acted in concert with the brigade --

Page 19670

1 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the name of the

2 brigade.

3 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Could you please repeat the name of the brigade because the

5 interpreters did not hear you.

6 A. It's not brigade. This actually means "combat group." Combat

7 group. Combat group. So the equivalent would not be the strength of a

8 brigade, but it would be a combat group.

9 Q. Sir, it says here "in concert or in co-ordination with a

10 brigade."

11 A. Oh, yes, I see, the Osinja Brigade; that's what you meant. The

12 brigade was named after a town called Osinja, and that is why it is

13 called the Osinja Brigade.

14 Q. Since there is a reference here to co-ordinated action, acting in

15 concert, can you briefly explain this word to us, what this co-ordinated

16 action means as a military term, and whether certain prerequisites had to

17 be met in order to have co-ordinated action?

18 A. Yes, that means acting together, carrying out a task together,

19 acting in concert together, carrying out a task by way of co-ordinated

20 action.

21 Q. A specific question -- let me put a specific question to you now.

22 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] In a non-leading form.

23 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Ms. Korner.

24 Q. [Interpretation] The authority that is issuing an order related

25 to co-ordinated action, what should be the relationship between that

Page 19671

1 order-issuing authority and the units that the order is being issued to?

2 A. That is the commanding order-issuing authority for the units to

3 whom or to which the order is being issued for co-ordinated action.

4 Well, it depends. It depends on the territory involved. If the

5 territory is cut up, in a way, if there are barriers of any kind,

6 artificial, man-made, or natural barriers, and if different units are

7 being engaged, nevertheless, these units have to act under a single

8 command, in concert, so that a single objective could be attained.

9 I would like to underline that this is something that probably

10 exists in all armies worldwide. Singleness of command and unity of

11 command are a prevailing principle.

12 Q. Thank you. I see number 3 here. It says "Combat Group

13 Mesa Selimovic."

14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Just one moment, please.

15 Mr. Witness, in co-ordinated action, such a co-ordinated action,

16 is that the same as re-subordination? Does this mean that the police

17 combat group was re-subordinated?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now there were three questions

19 there, and could I please be allowed to explain that.

20 Re-subordination is something that goes without saying by virtue

21 of the fact that one comes and is made available to a particular command.

22 That means that re-subordination has already taken place.

23 Then you refer to the word "co-ordination." This word

24 "koordinacija" does not work in the army, whereas "sadejstvo," as

25 "co-ordination," does.

Page 19672

1 So when a commander has subordinates within the combat order,

2 then he issues orders to them and then says what the elements involved

3 are for co-ordinated action. It's not that one unit is given just one

4 task.

5 MR. ZECEVIC: If I may be of assistance, Your Honours.

6 I believe there was a problem with the -- in the terms, because

7 during the --

8 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated]

9 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Would you please take off your

10 headphones.

11 [In English] During the examination of a military expert, we had

12 the same problem of translating the word "sadejstvo," and I believe it

13 was concluded at the end, with the help of the interpreters, that

14 "sadejstvo" should be interpreted as "co-ordinated action." And that is

15 the term that is used in this Tribunal, because "sadejstvo" is one thing

16 and "koordinacija," "co-ordination," is the other. So in order to

17 distinct between the two, we -- let me remind you that we agreed that

18 "sadejstvo" would be translated always as "co-ordinated action," whereas

19 "co-ordination" will be translated -- or "koordinacija," will be

20 translated as "co-ordination."

21 And I believe that might be the reason, according to my

22 understanding of the witness's answer, why he's -- because he said the

23 co-ordination does not exist in the military, and I believe, Your Honour,

24 meant the actual word which was used in the document.

25 JUDGE DELVOIE: I'm still -- no, no. Yes, please.

Page 19673

1 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated]

2 JUDGE DELVOIE: I'm still not completely sure, Mr. Bjelosevic.

3 This order is about two groups, the police combat group and the

4 Osinja Brigade - the brigade is obviously military - and asks -- or

5 orders them to work together; right? Okay.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, they are ordered to

7 carry out a particular task involving co-ordinated action.

8 JUDGE DELVOIE: Now, my question is: As far as the police

9 brigade concerns -- the police combat group, sorry, the police combat

10 group is concerned, is this order addressed/given to a police combat

11 group that previously was re-subordinated or not?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me try and explain things in a

13 more plastic [as interpreted] way. Let's be clear --

14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Just, could you first, if possible, give me a yes

15 or no and then explain? Was this order given to a police combat group

16 that was previously re-subordinated?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, yes.

18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, okay. Please go ahead.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let's make things very clear.

20 Let's see how things looked on the ground.

21 In the military and in military units, there are several ways how

22 units work in combat. One unit can be given a task on its own. The unit

23 is given an axis of action, and they execute the task on its own. That

24 unit may be reinforced by different means. And if that happens, then the

25 unit is expanded. Also, the superior command can add a certain unit, or

Page 19674

1 a group, to that original unit or attach another unit, and then they act

2 in concert. However, both units are subordinated to that higher command.

3 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.

4 JUDGE HALL: I suppose we may as well take the break at this

5 point.

6 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

7 JUDGE HALL: There is something I neglected to do at the

8 beginning and that is to note for the record that today, again, we

9 convene under Rule 15 bis, Judge Harhoff being absent.

10 So we would return in 20 minutes.

11 [The witness stands down]

12 --- Recess taken at 10.24 a.m.

13 --- On resuming at 10.48 a.m.

14 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, while the witness is ushered, I would

15 just like to inform the Trial Chamber of two things.

16 I was informed by the Registry, and I'm very thankful for that,

17 that the map got recovered, the map which was drawn yesterday by Mr. --

18 by our witness, Mr. Bjelosevic, and so I would suggest that the Registry

19 just repeats the number, for the record, of that exhibit so we can have

20 it admitted.

21 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.

22 THE REGISTRAR: That was Exhibit 1D462, Your Honours.

23 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.

24 MR. ZECEVIC: And the -- thank you, Your Honours.

25 And the second thing is: I was advised that 1D460, which was

Page 19675

1 MFI'd yesterday, we received a revised translation, and request the MFI

2 be removed from the -- it was up-loaded, the new translation has been

3 up-loaded, and we request that the MFI be removed from that.

4 JUDGE HALL: So ordered.

5 [The witness takes the stand]

6 MR. ZECEVIC: May I continue? Thank you.

7 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Bjelosevic, we're still talking about the

8 same document, 556D1, tab 128A.

9 MR. ZECEVIC: [In English] I'm sorry, Your Honours. I was

10 inquiring whether Your Honours want me to pursue the questions

11 Your Honour asked or --

12 JUDGE DELVOIE: [Microphone not activated] We're satisfied.

13 MR. ZECEVIC: You're satisfied. Thank you very much.

14 Q. [Interpretation] Just one clarification, if you can.

15 Under 3: "BG, Mesa Selimovic BG"?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Since Mr. Mesa Selimovic was a well-known writer, Bosnian writer

18 I should say, and a member of the Muslim ethnicity, I would like to

19 know --

20 A. You mean how come that he is -- his name has found its place in

21 the military?

22 Q. Yes, among the Serb soldiers.

23 A. This "BG" was established and soon became a company. It was a

24 unit which was mostly composed of Bosniaks and some Croats. When that

25 unit was established, although it was not very customary at the time,

Page 19676

1 they went to see Commander Lisica and asked him to be the godfather of

2 their unit, and he gave it the name Mesa Selimovic, and they kept the

3 name until the end of the war. Later on, they became part of the

4 327th Brigade. They were volunteers.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Unless there are objections, I

7 would like to tender the document into evidence.

8 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 1D472, Your Honours.

10 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Let's look at 560D1, under tab 141.

11 Q. Sir, yet again, this is an order issued by TG-3 on the

12 7th October, 1992. On the second page, the order was signed by

13 Colonel Slavko Lisica, who was the commander of that group. There is a

14 stamp and a signature there.

15 I would like to know whether you're familiar with this order.

16 And I'm especially interested in paragraphs 1(c) and (d). This is an

17 order. It has several bullet points. Could you please comment upon it.

18 A. I'm familiar with this order by Commander Lisica. When Brod was

19 liberated, that order was issued on the same day, on the

20 7th of October, 1992.

21 You can see that military administration is being introduced, and

22 the person who was appointed the commander of the city is

23 Lieutenant-Colonel Mikic, and also a deputy is appointed. And

24 Commander Lisica, as you can see, issues this order to establish a public

25 security station, and he is the one who appoints who the chief of the

Page 19677

1 Public Security Station would be. It would be Nenad Milicic, who up to

2 then was the commander of the Brod Battalion. He also appoints his

3 deputy the chief of the station. It did not exist under the

4 establishment, but since the commander established the Public Security

5 Station, he also appoints personnel and organises its structure. And

6 further on in his order, the commander elaborates how people should

7 behave within the organisation that he established.

8 Most interesting of all this, bullet point 4, where it says that:

9 "All appointed organs and individuals shall be subordinated to

10 the town commander."

11 Q. Thank you.

12 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Unless there are objections, I

13 would like to tender the document into evidence. I know that this

14 document concerns Bosanski Brod, but it illustrates the authorities of

15 the TG commander with regard to all civilian organs, and that's why I

16 believe that this document is also relevant for these proceedings.

17 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I accept that. My objections so far

18 have been to leading evidence about events, and the like, outside the

19 area. For the purposes for which Mr. Zecevic wishes to put it in,

20 namely, to show their theory of the relationship between the military and

21 the police, I accept that documents such as this are admissible.

22 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 1D473, Your Honours.

24 JUDGE HALL: As a matter of curiosity, though, Mr. Zecevic: Of

25 the number of documents which you've indicated you propose to tender, how

Page 19678

1 many of them are merely illustrative? That wasn't a question inviting an

2 answer. It was merely an observation that at some point the utility of

3 these merely illustrative documents would cease to have any purpose.

4 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, I'm glad to inform Your Honours that this is

5 my last document which is of that illustrative nature concerning this

6 matter.

7 JUDGE HALL: So noted. Thank you.

8 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes.

9 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, could you please look at 245D1, tab 158.

10 The document was issued on the 3rd of November, 1992. I believe that it

11 is a dispatch which was delivered to the MUP of the Republika Srpska.

12 The signatory is "Chief of Centre, Andrija Bjelosevic." There is a

13 signature.

14 Can you please just confirm for us whether this is, indeed, your

15 document, and what does it refer to?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Just a moment. There is something added by hand, so I would like

18 to invite your comment with this regard. Who was it who added the words

19 in hand?

20 A. This is a dispatch that I sent, and this is information for the

21 ministry about what had happened. Nenad Milicic was appointing the chief

22 of the Bosanski Brod Station by Commander Lisica, as we've just seen, was

23 found in Doboj, and he was in the process of stealing, together with some

24 other uniform personnel from Bosanski Brod, and they were robbing a

25 house. The family of Nenad Milicic was housed there while they were

Page 19679

1 displaced. They had all fled Brod. And then on their way back to

2 Brod -- or, rather, when they returned to Brod, they repaired their

3 house, they made it possible to live in, and then he and a group of his

4 associates went back to the house where they had stayed as displaced

5 persons in order to take the household items and bring them back to

6 Bosanski Brod and furnish his house there.

7 With all due understanding for the hardships of the Milicic

8 family, there was certainly no way to procure household items for their

9 own goods. The police intervened, they prevented them in carrying on

10 that activity, and then Colonel Lisica, who had been informed, and

11 Milicic was within his authority, Colonel Lisica reassigned him to a duty

12 in Benkovac. And I proposed somebody else to perform the duties as the

13 chief of the Public Security Station. My proposal was subsequently

14 accepted, and the person was, indeed, appointed.

15 Q. When did that proposal of yours arrive?

16 A. Immediately following this event. I can't recall the date, but

17 it was as soon as I had agreed with Commander Lisica that the

18 Public Security Station ought to be made part of the Security Centre of

19 the ministry. That is when I initiated that proposal.

20 Q. Well, that was the gist of my question, which was whether, at the

21 moment when you made that proposal for appointment of a new chief of the

22 Public Security Station in Bosanski Brod, the Military Administration was

23 then abolished. In other words, what happened with the command in the

24 town?

25 A. Well, the Military Administration stayed in place. But since

Page 19680

1 Commander Lisica and I had discussed the situation, I successfully

2 managed to argue my position that the security station should be within

3 the ministry hierarchy, just under the Security Centre. And I told him

4 that in that way we would be able to control the situation. He agreed

5 for the station to start operating as a proper public security station

6 outside the structure which was under the town command.

7 Q. You say that Colonel Lisica agreed. Had he not, would you have

8 been able to --

9 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry. I was about to rise to my feet to object

10 to the leading question before that as well, because the question that

11 Mr. Zecevic said that he asked was that the gist of his question, which

12 was not the gist of his question, and in the form in which it was asked

13 is leading, the way this question is going to be asked now is also a

14 leading one. So before he can ask it, I'm objecting.

15 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm withdrawing. Thank you very much, Ms. Korner.

16 Your Honours, I misspoke. This document -- I called this

17 document by our 65 ter Defence number, but I was reminded that this

18 document is already in exhibits as 1D408, and it was MFI'd because the

19 previous witness couldn't authorise the document.

20 Now, Mr. Bjelosevic confirmed that this is his document, and I

21 propose that this document be de-MFI'd.

22 JUDGE HALL: Yes, so ordered.

23 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have 1D410, which

24 is tab 167. [Microphone not activated]

25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

Page 19681

1 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Sir, this is an operational group document, signed by

3 Commander Colonel Slavko Lisica. The date is the 11th of November, 1992.

4 It is an order. In item 2, there is a reference -- your name appears,

5 that is.

6 Could you please comment.

7 A. Let me say, briefly, that following the liberation of the

8 Posavina area, Commander Lisica was appointed commander of the

9 operational group in Doboj. Here, we can see it mentioned. I am

10 familiar with the order. The command planned for certain combat tasks to

11 be executed.

12 In item 1, it says:

13 "Form a mixed battalion ..."

14 Et cetera.

15 And you can see that, again, this formation was an ad hoc

16 formation with the company of the military police and a company of the

17 regular police. I don't recall how many companies there were exactly,

18 but Teslic is also mentioned.

19 I am being appointed battalion commander by virtue of this order.

20 He also decided on my deputy. And in item 3, he mentions certain

21 elements of combat readiness.

22 Q. Did you abide by this order by Commander Lisica?

23 A. I did.

24 Q. Thank you. [Microphone not activated]

25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

Page 19682

1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Microphone, please.

2 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

3 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Bjelosevic, let us move on to another topic.

4 But, first of all, let me ask you something.

5 What was the situation like in Doboj in 1992, and how far was

6 Doboj from the separation line or the front-line? What consequence did

7 it have for the people living in Doboj?

8 A. At the beginning of the war, that area, together with the area

9 that is westwards towards Krajina, had been surrounded completely. There

10 was no traffic, the economy was in shambles, and there was no possibility

11 of supply. Just to illustrate that, I will remind you that in the

12 Banja Luka Clinical Centre, 12 babies died because there was no oxygen

13 that could be provided to them.

14 So the area was encircled. The proximity of the front-line to

15 the east went along the Bosna River, which is right next to the urban

16 settlement, the town itself. To the south, there was the Bosna and the

17 Usora. Therefore, it was adjacent to the front-line. The situation was

18 chaotic because the front-lines were so close and because the area was

19 exposed to enemy artillery fire. There were thousands of refugees from

20 different places as well, and I have already mentioned that there were

21 many uniformed and armed people moving about.

22 When the JNA withdrew, certain groups and even units ran amok.

23 They were no longer under the unified command, and acted as paramilitary

24 structures. I believe I can freely say that the Doboj population was

25 terrorised during that time.

Page 19683

1 Q. When you say that the population was terrorised, who do you have

2 in mind? Who was terrorising them?

3 A. The paramilitary groups I just mentioned, as well as individuals.

4 There were also people who were refugees who recognised no orders or

5 commands. They took it upon themselves to find accommodation for them

6 and to provide for themselves, even if it meant appropriating other

7 people's property, breaking into other people's homes, et cetera.

8 Q. As the chief of the Security Centre, did you take any measures

9 against such behaviour?

10 A. We always took measures. Whenever we received information of

11 such events, we established an on-site investigation team which attended

12 the scenes of crimes, upon which a prosecutor and an investigative judge

13 were always informed. Documentation was filed and case files opened

14 alongside investigations. Of course, there were instances when

15 perpetrators were identified and proceedings instituted, but some crimes

16 had not been resolved during my stay there. In other words, the

17 perpetrators were not found.

18 Q. Sir, was Doboj town and the municipality shelled from positions

19 held by Bosnian Muslims and Bosnian Croats?

20 A. Yes, almost daily. There were numerous reports about that.

21 I think there were 94 civilian casualties as a result of that, including

22 people of different age, such as children, women, men, and people of

23 different ethnicities among the victims.

24 Q. I'll show a document, which is 267D1, tab 187, and I'd like you

25 to comment. It's a dispatch from the CSB Doboj to the RS MUP on the

Page 19684

1 27th of November, 1992.

2 A. Yes, it is a dispatch sent to the Ministry of the Interior. It

3 was supposed to inform them of what was going on. We were under an

4 obligation to provide such information for their bulletin.

5 We can see that on the 26th of November there was shelling in

6 town, causing property damage. Then in Samac, the situation was similar,

7 which is something we can see in the next paragraph, and so on and so

8 forth.

9 Q. The victims in Samac are enumerated in paragraph 2. If we look

10 at the names, can you tell us what their nationality was, what was their

11 ethnicity?

12 A. Yes, I certainly can. They were Muslim, Mustafa and

13 Zeina Kapetanovic.

14 Q. This dispatch was sent from the CSB, on your behalf, to the

15 RR MUP; correct?

16 A. Yes, it is.

17 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] If there is no objection, I seek to

18 tender this document into evidence.

19 MS. KORNER: I'd like to know about the handwriting, please, and

20 where it comes from, this document.

21 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Can you comment on the handwritten annotations, since I am not

23 allowed to do that, in the right-hand side corner in the top.

24 A. Yes, there is a signature which I don't recognise, and the date

25 is when it was received and processed so as to include it in the

Page 19685

1 information bulletin issued by the minister of the interior.

2 Q. Can you read what it says.

3 A. The Analysis Department, it was forwarded to them. They gathered

4 and collated all the information included in the information bulletin.

5 That is to say, they had field information.

6 Q. Do you recognise the handwriting?

7 A. I don't.

8 Q. Do you recognise the signature?

9 A. I don't.

10 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry. My second question was: Where does the

11 document come from?

12 MR. ZECEVIC: I think it's a batch -- I have here it's a

13 batch 170, document 70, so that's a disclosure from the Office of the

14 Prosecutor.

15 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

16 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 1D474, [Realtime transcript read in

18 error "470"], Your Honours.

19 MR. ZECEVIC: Sorry, I believe we passed the number 470.

20 THE REGISTRAR: I think I said "474," just to correct the

21 transcript. Thank you.

22 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. I'm going to show you another document, 260D1, tab 180. It's

24 also a dispatch of the CSB Doboj, sent to the MUP of Republika Srpska on

25 the 23rd of November, 1992.

Page 19686

1 Your name is typewritten at the bottom of the page, in your

2 capacity of chief of centre?

3 A. Yes. This is information provided to the ministry. It has to do

4 with the following event:

5 "On the 23rd of November, 1992, between 1100 and 1410 hours, five

6 shells fell on the area of the town of Doboj, causing severe injuries to

7 six persons and killing a child."

8 Again, you can see that it is being sent to the

9 Analysis Department, so it's taking the same path, as it were.

10 Q. All right. Thank you.

11 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] This is a document that was

12 disclosed by the Prosecutor, batch 170, and it was number 68. If there

13 are no objections, I would like to tender this document as well.

14 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 1D475, Your Honours.

16 MR. ZECEVIC: [Microphone not activated]

17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

18 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, Your Honours. I keep forgetting that I

19 switch off the microphone, as instructed by interpreters, because I'm

20 shuffling the papers and they can't hear the witness.

21 Q. [Interpretation] Since we are discussing Doboj now, I'm going to

22 go back to that and I'm going to ask you about some facts that were

23 proffered here by the Prosecution and accepted by the Trial Chamber.

24 Tell me -- I think that we discussed this on the first day. We

25 discussed check-points that were put up in the territory of Doboj. Tell

Page 19687

1 me, when were these check-points put up in the area of the town of Doboj,

2 who kept these check-points, who manned them, and until when?

3 A. Could you please be more specific? When you say "the territory

4 of Doboj," do you mean the territory of the municipality or the

5 check-points in town? I spoke about check-points that were placed in the

6 surrounding area. That is also the territory of Doboj.

7 Q. Let me just explain: In town and in the territory of the

8 municipality.

9 A. Both. Check-points in the territory of the municipality were put

10 up by different forces as far back as March. I, myself, came across a

11 check-point once in the village of Jekovac [phoen]. It was manned by HDZ

12 forces.

13 Q. When you give us the month, could you please provide the year as

14 well?

15 A. 1992. Also, now was this the end of month or the beginning of

16 April? In the territory of the municipality of Doboj Istok, check-points

17 were put up as well, and weapons were seized from JNA members when they

18 arrived there. Vehicles were also taken. There were such check-points

19 in other places as well; around Modrica and Derventa too, I think. But

20 let's go back to Doboj.

21 It is precisely because of such occurrences that the Council for

22 National Defence of the municipality of Doboj, together with the

23 commander of the Doboj Garrison, Colonel Cazim Hadzic, and the

24 representatives of the police, all agreed that check-points manned by

25 joint teams should be established within the town of Doboj, itself, that

Page 19688

1 would keep the situation stable and under control.

2 In addition to that, in the area towards Susnjari, where Gradina

3 is in Doboj, and further on, there were check-points there as well.

4 People could not enter the area whenever they wanted to. Even the

5 police, the "milicija," could not enter unannounced. And everyone knew

6 who could get in and when.

7 Q. These last check-points where the police could not enter

8 unannounced, who manned these check-points?

9 A. These units are under the command of the SDA.

10 Q. Tell me, when you say "the Council for the National Defence of

11 the municipality of Doboj," did that body consist of representatives of

12 all the national parties or was this something different?

13 A. The council was made up of certain officials. Ahmet Alicic,

14 president of the municipality, was a member ex officio; then the

15 president of the Executive Council, I think it was Boro Paravac; then the

16 secretary of National Defence; then the commander of the garrison; and

17 the representative of the MUP. So it didn't really have to do with

18 persons' names. The MUP was always represented by someone at these

19 sessions.

20 Q. At any rate, this organ was a multi-ethnic one, if I can put it

21 that way?

22 A. That's right, it was multi-ethnic.

23 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] For the Trial Chamber, this is an

24 adjudicated fact; 1265 is the number.

25 Q. Sir, were you present at the last session of the

Page 19689

1 Municipal Assembly of Doboj in 1992, the last joint session of the

2 municipality of Doboj, and could you please tell us when that happened?

3 A. I cannot remember when the session of the Municipal Assembly was

4 held, and I was not present.

5 Q. Do you know what was discussed at this session of the

6 Municipal Assembly?

7 A. It was certain basic issues that we had information about that

8 were dealt with. I think that what was discussed was the division of the

9 municipality. I don't know whether it was the last session, but, anyway,

10 at one of the sessions that is what was discussed.

11 Q. Do you know what the result was of the political agreement?

12 A. If I remember correctly, something was agreed upon, after all.

13 However, I'm not familiar with the details, really.

14 Q. When you say "agreed upon," do you mean in relation to what was

15 discussed about the division of the municipality, or something different?

16 A. The division of the municipality.

17 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] It is Adjudicated Fact 1266. 1266.

18 Q. Mr. Bjelosevic, do you know about the arrival of a large group of

19 paramilitaries, if I can put it that way, or the White Eagles, in the

20 territory of the municipality? If so, can you tell us when that

21 occurred? Do you have any information to the effect that it happened in

22 the beginning of 1992?

23 A. No. To the best of my knowledge, there was no such formation in

24 the territory of the municipality of Doboj. A smaller group, although

25 they weren't called the White Eagles either, that could be reminiscent of

Page 19690

1 that was Luis's Group that was in the territory of the municipality of

2 Modrica. In the area of the municipality of Doboj, there were no such

3 forces.

4 MS. KORNER: Sorry, Mr. Zecevic. You may want to correct the

5 spelling of "Luis" on the screen. Page 43, line 3.

6 MR. ZECEVIC: I think it's been corrected already.

7 MS. KORNER: That's still wrong, but never mind.

8 MR. ZECEVIC: I can make the reference to the exhibit before, but

9 I think it's not needed.

10 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Bjelosevic, we have already seen how many

11 members this group, Luis's Group, had. Now I'm going to ask you about

12 the following fact: Do you know that a group of about 500 men, members

13 of the White Eagles, arrived in the municipality of Doboj in January and

14 February of 1992 and that they came to the Doboj Military Barracks to

15 take lunch, to have dinner, et cetera?

16 A. No, I have never received such information. I have never heard

17 of any such thing having happened. If a formulation like that had

18 arrived in Doboj, people would have to know about it.

19 Q. When you say "people would have to know about it," I assume that

20 the police would have to know that a big group like that had come to the

21 territory of the municipality.

22 A. Well, imagine a formation of 500 men. It wouldn't only be the

23 police; it would be generally well known. Five hundred men is a

24 battalion, a strong battalion at that.

25 Q. Mr. Bjelosevic, do you know of an area close to Doboj that is

Page 19691

1 called Ankara or Ankaran or something like that?

2 A. There is a hill called Ankaran above Doboj. And there were

3 repeaters there, different ones used for different purposes.

4 Q. When you say "repeaters," you are referring to communications

5 equipment; right?

6 A. Yes, yes. Communications repeaters, yes.

7 Q. [Microphone not activated]

8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

9 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Do you know that there was a group of people on that hill,

11 Ankaran, that they had taken over that hill and forced the inhabitants

12 from the area to move out? Are you aware of any such thing having

13 happened?

14 A. No, I'm not.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] This is Adjudicated Fact 1267, for

17 your reference.

18 Q. Mr. Bjelosevic, you told us about the situation on the

19 3rd of May, 1992. I think you also said that you had scheduled a meeting

20 of the collegium.

21 A. I tried to schedule it.

22 Q. And this collegium meeting was not held. Why not?

23 A. It wasn't possible to get all the personnel there, all the

24 persons who made up the collegium of the chief of the centre. They did

25 not respond to telephone calls.

Page 19692

1 Q. The members of this collegium, or the members of the MUP who made

2 up that collegium, were they ethnic Muslims and Croats and Serbs, that is

3 to say, belonging to all three ethnic groups or peoples?

4 A. Yes. I think I spoke about the ethnic composition over these

5 past few days. It was heterogeneous, yes.

6 Q. As for policemen who were ethnic Muslims, were any of them

7 arrested on the 3rd of May, 1992?

8 A. I think so. During the night, when the town was taken over, and

9 the police building too, I think that the operations officers were there,

10 were taken prisoner by the military. Yes, yes, taken prisoner, arrested.

11 Q. And what about all the other members of the police who were

12 ethnic Muslims; were they arrested on or around the 3rd of May in Doboj?

13 A. No. When the building was being taken over, the persons who

14 happened to be there were. As for everybody being arrested, or, I don't

15 know, whatever you said in your question, no, that was not the case. And

16 the police were not all there in a single place, so it was not possible

17 for that kind of thing to happen. I'm trying to say that even if

18 somebody had wanted to do that, it was simply impossible to do.

19 Q. Do you have any knowledge to the effect that perhaps there were

20 individual arrests of such persons because they were members of the

21 police; ethnic Muslims?

22 A. As to what happened subsequently, who was brought in and why, I

23 don't know well, for well-known reasons. I was not there all the time.

24 And also at that time I did not deal with arrests and custody cases.

25 Q. Sir, do you know that a curfew was introduced in Doboj? If so,

Page 19693

1 what do you know about it?

2 A. Yes, a curfew was, indeed, introduced about that time. The

3 curfew was introduced by the Crisis Staff. I believe that it was

4 primarily introduced for the safety of the citizens. That, at least, was

5 the explanation that I heard. The safety of the citizens was at risk

6 from shelling. The curfew was applied to all citizens, and the police

7 controlled the implementation of the curfew.

8 Q. Do you remember, when were citizens allowed to move around the

9 city?

10 A. If I remember it properly, that was between 8.00 and 11.00.

11 I think that the curfew was lifted at 8.00 in the morning. That's when

12 the citizens could go out and tend to their various businesses.

13 Q. When you said that it applied to all citizens, what did you mean?

14 A. When I said that, I meant all generations, both genders, all

15 ethnic groups. The only people who were exempted from that were

16 officials from the police or the military or ambulance services. They

17 were the only ones to whom the curfew did not apply.

18 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] This is Adjudicated Fact 1268.

19 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zecevic, mentioning adjudicated fact, and

20 being impossible to have all adjudicated facts in our heads, would it be

21 a problem for you to add, Well, this is a challenge to the adjudicated

22 fact? Or is it, when you mention an adjudicated fact, is it, by

23 definition, a challenge?

24 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, this is a challenge to adjudicated fact.

25 Your Honours, if you want me to, I can read the adjudicated fact

Page 19694

1 into the record, but --

2 JUDGE DELVOIE: No, no. It's just to make sure that this is a

3 challenge. It's not just a reference to an adjudicated fact; it is a

4 challenge to the adjudicated fact?

5 MR. ZECEVIC: That's a challenge, yes. I thought that it was

6 understood.

7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Thank you. That's -- that's okay.

8 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

9 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, my understanding is that each and every

10 one of the adjudicated facts is now being challenged, in total.

11 That's right, isn't it?

12 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, concerning Doboj. We have the witness who --

13 MS. KORNER: Yes. No, I understand that. I just want to know,

14 Your Honours, because it has consequences for what we have to do.

15 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Mr. Bjelosevic, do you know where Dragalovci is in Doboj

17 municipality?

18 A. Yes, it is a village on the regional road between Doboj and

19 Prnjavor.

20 Q. What is its ethnic composition?

21 A. The Croatian ethnicity prevailed. There were also a few Serbs.

22 Q. Do you know of any operation by the Serb forces which took place

23 in that village on the 20th of May, 1992?

24 A. I don't know of any operation and when it took place. However,

25 as I was passing through the village, I did notice some traces of damage

Page 19695

1 on the buildings there, probably as a result of some operation. But I

2 don't know when the operation took place.

3 Q. That village, Dragalovci, does it have a railway station?

4 A. Yes. It is on the railroad which connects Doboj and Banja Luka.

5 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] This is Adjudicated Fact 1272.

6 Q. Sir, do you know of the existence of a hangar in the town of

7 Doboj?

8 A. Hangars, hangars? This is a very general term. I don't know

9 what it could mean in Doboj, unless you are referring to military

10 hangars.

11 Q. Were there any military hangars in the town of Doboj?

12 A. Yes. In the southern part, in the area known as Usora

13 neighbourhood, very close to the Bosanka factory that existed at the

14 time. It was a fruit and vegetable processing factory, Bosanka.

15 Q. Do you know that those hangars, in mid-June 1992, were used for

16 the accommodation of some individuals who had been arrested?

17 A. As far as I know, yes, for a while the military did keep

18 detainees in those facilities.

19 Q. Let's clarify, let's clarify. What place are we talking about?

20 What hangar do you have in mind when you speak about hangars?

21 A. Those were military facilities or military hangars which used to

22 house vehicles and personnel.

23 Q. What is the name of that part of town?

24 A. I believe that the entire area is known as Usora.

25 Q. Do you know that there was a camp in Bare at the beginning of

Page 19696

1 July 1992 in Doboj municipality?

2 A. There were military facilities in Bare as well. As far as I

3 know, there were sub-ground -- or underground and ground depots for

4 equipment. I was never there, but I know that there were some military

5 facilities there. I believe that even to this day the armed forces of

6 Bosnia-Herzegovina use those facilities as military facilities.

7 Q. I'm going to read a number of geographical terms --

8 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zecevic, as to your previous question, you

9 ask about a camp and the witness answered about military --

10 MR. ZECEVIC: Facility.

11 JUDGE DELVOIE: -- facilities. Was that what you meant with your

12 question when you asked for a camp?

13 MR. ZECEVIC: I don't know if it was recorded, but the witness

14 said that there was a -- that he knows there was a military facility, but

15 was never there. So, therefore, I didn't see any point in pursuing any

16 more, because obviously he wasn't aware of the fact.

17 JUDGE DELVOIE: The fact that he wasn't there does not

18 necessarily mean that he wasn't aware. So if you mean -- if, by asking

19 for a camp, you meant something else than a military facility, I would

20 like you to clarify that with the witness.

21 MR. ZECEVIC: I appreciate Your Honour's suggestion.

22 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Bjelosevic, did you ever hear -- do you know

23 that there was a camp in Bare, a detention camp or a collection centre,

24 from sometime in July to mid-August 1992?

25 A. I'm not sure when I heard that, but I did hear rumours about

Page 19697

1 prisoners of war being detained as they were in Usora.

2 Q. In those military --

3 A. Yes, in those military facilities in Bare.

4 Q. With regard to collection centres, do you know that in 1992 there

5 was a collection centre where Muslim and Croat civilians were kept in the

6 4th of July Barracks, in a place called Miljkovac.

7 A. The name of the barracks in Doboj was the 4th of July, but I

8 really don't know that civilians were ever kept there, I really don't.

9 Q. Do you know that there was a collection centre where Muslim and

10 Croat civilians were kept in 1992, in Doboj municipality, and that camp

11 was known as Seslija camp?

12 A. No, the name doesn't ring a bell. I don't know anything about

13 that.

14 Q. Do you know where Seslija Camp is at all?

15 A. I've just told you that I don't even know that there was a camp

16 of that kind. Seslija is a crossroads. Actually, it is a place on the

17 road between Doboj and, further on, Samac and Brod. And at S eslija, the

18 road forks off to the right, and there it leads to Samac. And if you go

19 on straight, you get to Brod. I'm not aware of any military facilities

20 that ever existed there. I'm not aware of any camps having being set up

21 there. I really don't know. I've never heard that before.

22 Q. Thank you. Do you know that the railway station was used for the

23 same purpose?

24 A. No, I don't know. I've never heard that before. I've never

25 heard the railway station being mentioned as used for that purpose.

Page 19698

1 Q. Do you know that something that was known as the SRC Ozren was

2 used for the same purpose, i.e., as a collection centre for Muslim and

3 Croat civilians?

4 A. The SRC Ozren, in our language the "SRC" could stand for

5 Sports and Recreation Centre, but I didn't know that such a centre ever

6 existed in Ozren at the time. Therefore, I really don't know that people

7 were ever kept at such a place.

8 Q. Do you know that the secondary school was also used for that

9 purpose?

10 A. The secondary school, who bore the name of Djuro Pucar, was the

11 place where refugees were billeted. And now, whether I have time, maybe

12 it would be of some interest for me to tell you.

13 Q. Just briefly.

14 A. In very brief outline: Sometime in November 1992, a journalist

15 came to visit me from Munich, Germany, the TV house Zoller and the

16 journalist's name was Martin Rettmayer [phoen], and he asked me the same

17 question you have just asked me now. He asked me about that locality,

18 and some others, and said that those were camps, as far as he knew. And

19 we went and checked those places. And I know that at the time I spoke to

20 either the president or the secretary of the Red Cross, and he brought us

21 the lists of those people who had spent some time in the secondary

22 school. There were refugees from various regions, of different

23 ethnicities. And later on, that journalist published a book about what

24 he had learned, and he sent me that book from Germany. It has been

25 translated. In the book, he described what he found on the site visit,

Page 19699

1 as opposed to what he had heard before he came to Bosnia. In other

2 words, there was nothing there.

3 Q. Do you know that the factory of tyres in Bare was also used as a

4 collection centre?

5 A. I've never heard that before. I apologise for laughing, but I

6 assure you that there has never been a tyre factory in Doboj. There

7 never was and there isn't now.

8 Q. Do you know that the mine in Stanari was also used as a

9 collection centre?

10 A. No, I don't know that. I absolutely don't know anything about

11 that.

12 Q. And the primary school in Stanari?

13 A. No, I've never heard that.

14 Q. The handball pitch?

15 A. No, I didn't hear that. That is, indeed, a stadium where all

16 sorts of tournaments, international, national, are held every year. But

17 I've never heard that prisoners were ever kept there, that the place was

18 used as a camp.

19 Q. And something that is known as either Bosanska or perhaps

20 Bosanka?

21 A. The only thing that was called Bosanska in Doboj was

22 Bosanska Street, and I've never heard of Bosanka. That may be a mistake.

23 Somebody may have put it in the context of those hangars, and also

24 because the two are close, but I've never heard of anything like that.

25 Q. What about electricity poles factory in Rudanka?

Page 19700

1 A. Yes, there is such a factory there. But I've never heard of it

2 being used for that purpose.

3 Q. The village of Kotorsko?

4 A. I know where it is. It is to the north, towards Derventa. I

5 don't know of any collection centre or camp being there. I simply never

6 heard of anything of that sort. It was actually a stronghold where there

7 were armed formations placed during the Corridor Operation. A unit that

8 was deployed there was from the so-called Handzar Division, a famous

9 unit, but I don't know of any camps in that direction.

10 Q. The "Piperi" shop?

11 A. I don't know even what it is.

12 Q. Have you ever heard of such a shop?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Did you ever hear of the elementary school in the village of

15 Grapska, used for that purpose?

16 A. There is such a village, but I never heard of the school there

17 being used to that end.

18 Q. Podnovlje?

19 A. Podnovlje is next to the main road that goes to Modrica and

20 Samac. There was a school there where an army command was housed for a

21 while, but I don't know of any camps there.

22 Q. And, lastly, a military barracks at Sevarlije?

23 A. The village of Sevarlije is located to the south of Doboj, on the

24 right bank of the Bosna River. There were certain military facilities

25 and warehouses there, but I don't know of their use for any detainees.

Page 19701

1 Q. What about Putnikovo Brdo?

2 A. Putnikovo Brdo also had military facilities. There was a firing

3 range there, with a number of buildings, but I don't know of it being

4 used for any prisoners.

5 Q. Was there a separation line at Putnikovo Brdo or was there any

6 combat there?

7 A. Yes, the lines were established there. And later on there was

8 combat. I know of the 12th of July, for example, when the Muslim forces

9 attempted an attack towards Doboj. There was fierce fighting there at

10 the time.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 MR. ZECEVIC: For ease of reference, it is Adjudicated Fact 1279.

13 I'm looking at the clock, Your Honours. Is it a good time for a

14 break?

15 JUDGE HALL: Yes. We would take the break now and resume in

16 20 minutes.

17 [The witness stands down]

18 --- Recess taken at 12.05 p.m.

19 --- On resuming at 12.28 p.m.

20 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, just before the witness comes back in

21 again, I've informed Mr. Zecevic I'm going to raise it:

22 Your Honours have heard for the last hour or so, effectively,

23 every single adjudicated fact being challenged through this witness.

24 Your Honours, I simply wish to observe this: As I've already remarked,

25 that doesn't even remotely occur in the 65 ter summary that we got about

Page 19702

1 this witness. The closest I suppose you could say it is that he will

2 describe the situation in CSB Doboj and the SJBs in the territory after

3 the outbreak of hostilities.

4 Your Honours, I'm simply raising it at this time. There's

5 nothing we can do about it. But for future reference, because we don't

6 have statements from these witnesses, other than our interviews, which

7 didn't deal with this at all, on the basis the Defence don't have

8 statements, we would ask that we get proper 65 ter summaries which

9 outline the specific issues that the witness will deal with, not in a

10 general way, as put here.

11 And if matters come to light after proofing has taken place,

12 well, then we should be given an amended 65 ter summary so that we have

13 some advance notice of the evidence that the witness is going to give.

14 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours --

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Zecevic, do you have a response to what

17 Ms. Korner has just said?

18 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, Your Honours.

19 It is entirely my fault; I agree. The point of the matter is the

20 following: The issue of these adjudicated facts concerning Doboj came

21 out only when the witness arrived over here, so after we filed our

22 65 ter -- our 65 ter submission. And we discussed it during the

23 proofing. And I entirely accept I failed to put the Office of the

24 Prosecutor on notice that this was discussed during the proofing of this

25 witness.

Page 19703

1 And I will keep that in mind, to inform the Office of the

2 Prosecutor and the Trial Chamber of the events that -- or the issues that

3 pop up during the proofing of the witnesses. However, I don't think that

4 the office -- I mean, considering, in this case, I don't think that the

5 Office of the Prosecutor would be prejudiced, because the

6 cross-examination will be postponed after ...

7 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, that is the point, of course. I

8 accept - and that's why I'm not taking any point on this - because of

9 postponement. But in normal circumstances, we would be going straight

10 into cross-examination and we would have no idea at all that this was

11 something we would have to deal with.

12 JUDGE DELVOIE: So, Mr. Zecevic, basically you do agree that it

13 would be good practice to mention this in the witness summary?

14 MR. ZECEVIC: No, by all means, Your Honours, I accept that it's

15 entirely my fault. I just -- I just failed -- forgot to prepare the

16 proofing note.

17 [The witness takes the stand]

18 JUDGE HALL: I must add that I'm relieved that you agree with

19 Ms. Korner that this is the correct approach.

20 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

21 May I continue?

22 JUDGE HALL: Yes, please.

23 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Mr. Bjelosevic, please look at 16D1, tab 59A. Sir, it is a

25 letter of the Ministry of the Interior from July 1992 to the security

Page 19704

1 services centres, signed by Minister of the Interior Mico Stanisic. We

2 see a signature there as well as a stamp.

3 Please comment: Did you receive this document; and what it

4 pertained to.

5 A. Yes, this was an invitation to a collegium meeting that was to

6 take place on the 11th of July, 1992. We received this notification, and

7 I attended. It was the first collegium meeting since the outbreak of the

8 war.

9 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] If there is no objection, I seek to

10 tender this document into evidence.

11 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 1D476, Your Honours.

13 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Sir, did you attend the collegium meeting on the 11th of July?

15 A. I did. I can tell you that I was happy to see this notification.

16 I prepared for the meeting because I was supposed to brief on the

17 situation in the field. I thought about the situation, because a number

18 of times before that I was toying with the idea of leaving the service.

19 Having received this notification, I decided to attend to see what the

20 situation will be like at the meeting, to see what the position is of the

21 minister and the entire collegium, upon which I wanted to decide whether

22 to stay with the MUP or leave and join the army.

23 Q. Where did the collegium meeting take place?

24 A. In Belgrade, in Villa Bosanka.

25 Q. Can you tell us what it all looked like, how many days it lasted,

Page 19705

1 and what did you discuss?

2 A. As I said, it took place in Belgrade, in Villa Bosanka. It began

3 on the 11th. And we had a thorough discussion preceded by

4 Minister Stanisic's opening remarks. We all participated and presented

5 our respective problems in the areas we came from. Following that

6 discussion, certain guide-lines were provided and conclusions adopted.

7 The next day, on the 12th of July, we could address specific

8 issues with the Public Security assistant to the minister, as well as the

9 State Security assistant to the minister. So that day was the working

10 day, if I may say so.

11 Q. Did you know Mr. Mico Stanisic before the 11th of July?

12 A. I think we met once in the ministry building, the

13 Ministry of the Interior, that is, in Bosnia-Herzegovina, in Sarajevo.

14 We also met at a collegium meeting on the 11th of February in Banja Luka.

15 Before that time, we were not closely acquainted.

16 Q. Please look at tab 66, which is P160. [Microphone not activated]

17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

18 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. It is a document of the minister of the interior of the

20 Serb Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, brief analysis of functioning of

21 the MUP so far and the outlines of its future activities. In brackets,

22 "(Summary of the meeting of the MUP officials of 11th of July, 1992)."

23 It says that it was drafted in Sarajevo in July 1992.

24 Have you had occasion to see this document before?

25 A. Yes, I have.

Page 19706

1 Q. Since it is, of course, a summary, overview, of what was

2 discussed and who said what, does it, in general terms, reflect what was,

3 indeed, said at the meeting, as well as is it accurate as to who attended

4 it and what problems were addressed?

5 A. Yes, it is correct.

6 Q. On page 9 in the Serbian, which is marked as page 6 - it is 9 in

7 e-court - we see your name and title, head of the Doboj CSB. Can you

8 comment on this part, briefly?

9 A. This reflects my contribution to the meeting.

10 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Just for the sake of the

11 Trial Chamber, I wanted to say that the text spills over on the next page

12 and the page following that; that is to say, pages 10 and 11 in e-court

13 are also included.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I opened up my presentation by

15 describing the sequence of events with the area of the centre and how

16 parts of municipalities and public security stations were under

17 occupation. It is accurately reflected in this document. I also spoke

18 about the participation of the police in military operations and its

19 consequences in the number of those killed and wounded who were from the

20 police.

21 Next, I discussed the problems which I believed were the most

22 important and of which I wanted to acquaint Mr. Stanisic, as well as

23 other associates of his. And I wanted to receive answers to the problems

24 I presented. My decision whether to stay depended very much on my

25 impression of whether I could continue working in such a way.

Page 19707

1 I did mention that for any further participation of the police

2 force in combat activities presents a problem.

3 Perhaps I need not go into each and every sentence. In any case,

4 I pointed out the problems of public security station buildings having

5 been destroyed and that we were lacking personnel, as well as we were

6 poorly equipped. I also pointed out the problem of financing, because

7 the crisis staffs provided funds for the police to the extent possible,

8 which then had an impact on being dependent on those financing the

9 police. That is to say, those crisis staffs influenced the work of the

10 police. Certain chiefs, for example, were appointed by the war staffs in

11 question -- crisis staffs in question.

12 I also mentioned that there was too much intrusion on part of

13 local politicians into the work of the police, which greatly influenced

14 the professional conduct of policemen. Local politics had a significant

15 bearing on the work of the police and it was exercised through station

16 chiefs and other managing personnel.

17 Next, I pointed out the problems surrounding the Public Security

18 Station in Doboj, where members of the army and paramilitary formations

19 arrested people, bringing them into the police station, without any legal

20 basis, first and foremost, and then without any proof or evidence that

21 they should be deprived of liberty and treated in such way. Any

22 opposition to that practice met with strong reaction. I told you earlier

23 that people drew out weapons and that I, too, was threatened.

24 Q. All right. Tell me, Mr. Bjelosevic, at the end of this meeting

25 that was held on the 11th and 12th of July, certain conclusions were

Page 19708

1 made - we can see them on page 23; in e-court, it is marked as

2 page 20 - do you remember that these conclusions were reached then?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Tell me, these conclusions, were they reached on the basis of the

5 consent, if I can put it that way, of the members of the collegium who

6 were there, who were present in Belgrade on the 11th and 12th of July and

7 on the basis of agreed positions, that is to say, as you had agreed at

8 the meeting? Was that the case, or were these conclusions imposed in

9 some other way?

10 A. No, it's exactly the way it says here. On the basis of the

11 discussion, proposals, suggestions, and on the basis of the introductory

12 remarks made by the minister, where he provided certain guide-lines as to

13 what was expected of the MUP. And these conclusions mentioned here were

14 derived from that. It can also be said that these conclusions --

15 actually, that's not written here, but they have the nature of an

16 operative plan, because you see that there are dead-lines that are set

17 there and also who it should be carried out by.

18 So this document is one that truly encouraged me. I have to say

19 that again. These conclusions encouraged me, the minister's position

20 encouraged me, because he said that all the problems that were registered

21 at the meeting, and that did not only depend on the minister and the

22 ministry, would be dealt with by a cabinet meeting, that he would discuss

23 it with the prime minister and other ministers in charge of various

24 fields involved. He said that he would ask the appropriate authorities

25 to have certain things discussed and agreed upon with the Main Staff,

Page 19709

1 too.

2 Q. After the meeting -- what were your thoughts after the meeting?

3 Since you told us about your thoughts before the meeting, now tell us,

4 finally, how you had experienced the meeting.

5 A. I experienced it as a very constructive meeting. I understood

6 the minister to be a man who was seriously committed to the strengthening

7 of the institution and its further developments and its functioning on

8 the basis of the Constitution and law. This is something that he

9 repeated several times as he made his introductory remarks and took part

10 in the discussion. It was pointed out that regardless of all the

11 complexity involved, as was ultimately proven, he insisted on people

12 acting in accordance with the law to a maximum degree and that the safety

13 of the property of all citizens be ensured, also that certain crimes --

14 or, rather, all crimes that were committed should be uncovered and the

15 perpetrators should be prosecuted. He repeated that, saying,

16 Irrespective of ethnicity.

17 Q. Thank you. After this meeting, did you remain a member of the

18 Ministry of the Interior?

19 A. Yes. As soon as I came back, I spoke to the persons who I wanted

20 to head departments within the CSB, persons I had spoken to earlier on as

21 well. I invited them to come in, and I told them about the meeting,

22 itself, on the basis of my own notes, because we didn't have any other

23 documents at that point. I told them what the position of the collegium

24 was, and then we started establishing the department as envisaged by law.

25 The heads of various offices were appointed, and we started establishing

Page 19710

1 all the elements that a security services centre should have. And all of

2 this started functioning according to the different lines of work.

3 Immediately after that, I called in the different station chiefs

4 and I familiarised them with the same content that I told the future

5 heads of department about.

6 From then onwards, in the CSB we established certain records that

7 are supposed to be kept when these departments are operational. Also, we

8 started with instructive supervision from the centre in respect of

9 individual stations.

10 As for the situation as it was in different stations, we, as a

11 team, discussed all of that and informed the MUP about what the situation

12 was and provided instructions to the stations on the ground in terms of

13 how they should improve things.

14 Immediately after this collegium, somehow the financing started

15 as well. The MUP started financing this along the chain. Money started

16 coming in, and this was an important element on the basis of which

17 subordinates could be required to be loyal.

18 Q. I am going to show you document 1D63. That is tab 69. This is a

19 document of the Ministry of the Interior. This was communicated a few

20 days after the collegium. The date is the 19th of July, 1992. This was

21 submitted to all centres of security services in the territory of the MUP

22 of Republika Srpska, Bosnia-Herzegovina, and it has to do with

23 instructions. And there is the RZ questionnaire pertaining to war crimes

24 that is attached.

25 Do you remember receiving this document, and do you remember

Page 19711

1 acting in accordance with this instruction and this form?

2 A. Yes. This followed after the meeting that we discussed. I know

3 that we received this dispatch and this questionnaire, and they were

4 acted upon. Truth to tell, the communications system was not fully

5 operational, but as soon as possible, this was dealt with. But I do

6 remember this letter, specifically, and I know that this questionnaire,

7 this form, was filled out and sent on.

8 MS. KORNER: I really don't want to become boring about this, but

9 these are important matters, Your Honour, and they should be dealt with,

10 because it devalues the evidence, as far as Mr. Zecevic is concerned, if

11 it is all didn't by leading questions.

12 "Do you remember receiving this document," and "Do you remember

13 acting in accordance with this instruction and this form," all of that is

14 leading. The proper question should be: Did you receive the document;

15 what did you do about it? Particularly in the light of his assertion

16 that at an earlier stage he never received any documents at all from

17 Mr. Stanisic.

18 MR. ZECEVIC: Again, I'm sorry. You were right, Ms. Korner, to a

19 certain extent, I should say. I will try my best.

20 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, let us look at the next document, 1D76.

21 That is tab 224.

22 A. Let me just try to find it, please.

23 Q. Of course.

24 A. 224, you said?

25 Q. 224.

Page 19712

1 A. I seem to have a problem with this.

2 Q. You can see it on the monitor if you cannot find it in the

3 binder.

4 A. I'm trying, but I cannot find it under that number.

5 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Usher, could you assist him, please.

6 MR. ZECEVIC: Please show this to the Office of the Prosecutor

7 and then provide the document.

8 [Interpretation] Here's the document.

9 Q. Sir, Mr. Bjelosevic, did you receive this document from the

10 Ministry of the Interior?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Just a moment, please. Let us see what the next question is.

13 What did you do in respect of that document?

14 A. Well, we acted in accordance with it. We did what was requested

15 here. We provided all the information we had available at that point in

16 time, and we submitted that to the ministry.

17 Q. This document, in your view, can it be linked to the conclusions

18 of the collegium or not?

19 A. Well, yes. It is derived from those conclusions.

20 Q. What is the date on this document?

21 A. The date is the 19th of July, 1992. Of course, at the end I

22 recognised Minister Stanisic's signature.

23 Q. In relation to this document and the previous document, did you

24 inform the chiefs of public security stations in your area about the

25 content of those documents?

Page 19713

1 A. Of course. There was no other way of collecting the data

2 involved. We had to do it through the public security stations, because

3 every station had records in its own area and they were responsible for

4 the area that they covered. After receiving this dispatch, this was

5 forwarded to the stations. And then at the level of the centre, all of

6 this information was brought together and then sent on to the

7 Ministry of the Interior of Republika Srpska.

8 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

9 Document 201, D201, tab 70, could we please have that shown.

10 [Microphone not activated]

11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

12 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. This is a document dated the 20th of July, 1992. It says

14 "Security Services Centre," and then there is your name at the bottom of

15 the page and your position, and then there's a signature and stamp, and

16 then the president of the War Presidency, name, signature, stamp. Can

17 you tell us what this is all about?

18 A. This is a request for deployment in the MUP. I have already told

19 you that after the meeting in Belgrade, I embarked upon the establishment

20 and replenishment of the CSB Doboj. This is a request for

21 Mr. Mirko Stojcinovic to be freed from the military, because he was in

22 the Vucijak Brigade, and be appointed chief of the

23 Public Security Sector. As you can see, this was still being

24 co-ordinated with the local organs of government. The president of the

25 War Presidency, Mr. Paravac, also agreed with this personnel appointment,

Page 19714

1 and he confirms this request by his own signature and stamp.

2 Let me note that after a certain procedure that was followed,

3 Mr. Stojcinovic was, indeed, appointed to that position.

4 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] If there is no objection, I would

5 like to tender this document into evidence.

6 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 1D477, Your Honours.

8 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. The next document is 207D1, tab 85.

10 A. Yes. This is a letter of mine that I, as chief of the

11 Security Services Centre, sent to the Command of the

12 Doboj Operations Group. After the procedure was carried through for

13 Mr. Stojcinovic's appointment as chief of the Public Security Sector,

14 this was sent to the command, and then the command met our request.

15 Q. So after that?

16 A. The command relieved him of the duty that he held in the army up

17 until then.

18 Q. Was this gentleman truly appointed chief of that sector?

19 A. Yes, yes. Yes, we sent a copy to the command once we received

20 the appointment.

21 Q. Thank you. The following document is 1D58, tab 71.

22 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] Do you want to tender the

23 last one?

24 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, if there is no opposition, I --

25 MS. KORNER: Mr. Zecevic says "if there is no opposition." I'm

Page 19715

1 merely asking if he wishes to tender it. I haven't objected so far.

2 I've only asked for information about the documents.

3 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.

4 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 1D478, Your Honours.

6 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Sir, this is an order by the ministry. Did you receive it at the

8 CSB Doboj? Are you familiar with it?

9 A. Yes. We received it and then we forwarded it to our public

10 security stations with our accompanying letter. The police department

11 was tasked with monitoring the implementation of the minister's order.

12 In other words, we acted upon this order.

13 Q. Thank you. The following document I would like to show you --

14 or, rather, the date of this document is 23rd July; right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. The following document is 1D59, tab 72.

17 Mr. Bjelosevic, did you receive this document from the

18 Ministry of the Interior? Do you remember it?

19 A. Yes, I remember the document. We also proceeded in accordance

20 with this document. However, we had a problem in the field, as I have

21 already explained in my previous answers. I said that we had public

22 security stations that had been torched or destroyed and that in some

23 places our registers had been destroyed. However, we did act upon this

24 order by the minister.

25 Q. Could you please explain. How did you act upon this order? What

Page 19716

1 did you do?

2 A. All the employees, and especially the reserve forces, because we

3 already knew the status of those who were our staff members and they had

4 already been vetted, so the reserve forces and the

5 newly-appointed personnel were vetted, especially in those stations where

6 the registers were preserved. And if we established that an individual

7 had a criminal record, they would be removed from our war deployment

8 schedule.

9 In places where our records were destroyed, we tried to work

10 through police officers who were sector leaders because they knew people

11 by name. Every sector leader knew almost the entire population in their

12 respective areas. And wherever possible and whenever possible, we tried

13 to have them help us in establishing whether an individual had a criminal

14 record, whether they were prone to crime, whether they had ever been

15 engaged in the disruption of public law and order, but still we acted

16 upon the minister's orders.

17 Q. And what about those people against whom proceedings were being

18 conducted at that very moment; what did you do with them?

19 A. They were also removed from the wartime deployment schedule if

20 proceedings were being conducted against them at that moment.

21 Q. If any such individual against whom criminal proceedings were

22 being conducted at that moment and if such an individual was a member of

23 the Ministry of the Interior and if that person was in custody at that

24 moment, what would happen?

25 A. If a person was in custody, he could not have been on duty. So

Page 19717

1 if they were not physically on duty, if they were not physically in

2 service, they would be removed from the deployment schedule, because that

3 would just increase our numbers and the strength would not reflect the

4 numbers on paper.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 A. And let me just tell you that public security stations were

7 duty-bound to implement the order in their respective territories.

8 Q. Could you now look at document P590, tab 74.

9 Sir, are you familiar with this letter?

10 A. Yes. That letter was sent from the

11 Doboj Security Services Centre. It was drafted based on an order, an

12 order by the minister. The information was drafted by the

13 Security Services Centre, I signed it, and it was sent to the ministry.

14 You can see a link between a certain document that was issued on the

15 19th July, 1992.

16 Let me just add to this that you can see, from the letter, what I

17 have repeated on several occasions in this courtroom, namely, what the

18 situation was like at that time; that chaos reigned, that there were

19 groups of armed individuals, and so on and so forth. I don't want to go

20 over the same grounds yet again.

21 Q. When you say that there was a connection between a certain

22 document which was either drafted or issued on the 19th of July, 1992,

23 what document did you have in mind, precisely?

24 A. Well, you can see its number. We have already commented upon

25 that document that had arrived from the ministry. In other words, this

Page 19718

1 information was drafted pursuant to the minister's order. I don't know

2 if I've made myself clear when I tried to explain which document it is.

3 Q. Could you please look at 1D55, at tab 86.

4 My question is this: Did you receive this document? If you did,

5 did you act upon it? If so, what did you do?

6 A. Yes, we received the document. And you can see a handwritten

7 addition which says: "To the SJBs Doboj, Maglaj, Teslic, Derventa,

8 Modrica, Bosanski Samac, and Petrovo."

9 The minister issues an order reminding us that we had to act in

10 compliance with the law.

11 Q. And what is the date of this document?

12 A. The 10th of August, 1992.

13 Q. Thank you. And now let's look another document, 208D1, tab 88.

14 MS. KORNER: [Previous translation continues] ... could I just

15 ask: Whose writing is that on it?

16 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Can you go back to the previous document, Mr. Bjelosevic. Would

18 you be able to recognise the handwriting at the bottom of the page? And

19 there is also something at the top of the page also in handwriting.

20 A. The Cyrillic handwriting, that is my handwriting, where it says:

21 "Send to all SJBs." And at the bottom, I think that Mirko Blazanovic

22 actually listed all the SJBs to whom the document had to be sent. He was

23 on duty -- or, rather, he was the chief of the police department at the

24 CSB, and this is his handwriting.

25 Q. Thank you.

Page 19719

1 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] The document that I asked for

2 previously was 208D1, tab 88.

3 Q. Mr. Bjelosevic, the document was issued on the

4 12th of August, 1992, and it was sent to the public security stations and

5 the National Security Service. Your name is on the document, and there

6 is a signature as well.

7 Do you remember this document? Is this your document? And what

8 can you tell us about it?

9 A. The document bears the date that you have just mentioned, and I

10 signed it, as the chief of centre. It was sent, as you can see, to the

11 public security stations in the territory of the Security Services Centre

12 in Doboj as well as to the National Security Service. This is an order,

13 an order sent by the minister, forwarded by myself to the public security

14 stations in my territory. This is Minister Stanisic's order.

15 Q. The text of the order that you forwarded to the SJBs, is it

16 identical to the text of the order that you received from the ministry?

17 A. Yes. You can actually see the quotation signs. And it says here

18 that we received the order by fax. There were no teleprinter

19 communications means at that moment. My introduction is:

20 "We have received a fax with the following contents ..."

21 And then I quote it.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Unless there are objections, I

24 would like to tender the document into evidence.

25 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.

Page 19720

1 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit 1D479, Your Honours. Thank

2 you.

3 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. The following document I would like to show you is 1D56, tab 93.

5 A. Again, I have a problem. I don't have it. No, no, I have it.

6 Sorry. Yes, I do.

7 Q. This is a dispatch from the ministry. Did you receive it?

8 A. Yes. This is a repeat of the document. Something with similar

9 contents had already been received, but this one was sent on the

10 17 of August, 1992.

11 Q. The ministry repeated its document. Did you also do the same;

12 did you repeat your instruction to the SJBs in your territory?

13 A. Of course I did.

14 Q. In other words, you acted upon this document?

15 A. Yes, I did.

16 Q. Thank you. Mr. Bjelosevic, the Central Prison in Doboj, who was

17 its warden, if you remember, in 1992?

18 A. I know that there were two men. I don't know who -- I can't

19 remember who the warden was and who his deputy was. Miroslav Vidic and

20 Mirko Slavuljica were their names.

21 Q. Let me just briefly show you P1304, at tab 237.

22 Are you familiar with this document? Are you familiar with any

23 of the facts in this document?

24 A. I know that -- or, rather, what I have just said is corroborated

25 by this document and that is that the two of them were the two persons in

Page 19721

1 charge of the district prison in Doboj. And as for the contents of the

2 entire document, I've not seen that before.

3 Q. Thank you. Mr. Bjelosevic, under whose competence functioned the

4 Central Prison in Doboj throughout 1992?

5 A. Prisons, or correctional facilities, as they were called at the

6 time, were under the competence of the Ministry of Justice, as is the

7 case today. The Ministry of Justice is the body competent to regulate

8 the work of those institutions.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown 1D176,

11 tab 75.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Seventy-five?

13 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, tab 75.

14 Q. Are you familiar with this document? On page 2, you can see the

15 signature block.

16 A. I recognise the document, and I recognise Minister Stanisic's

17 signature.

18 Q. It is dated the 27th of July, 1992. Do you recall having

19 received it in the CSB?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What did you do with it?

22 A. I did precisely as I was asked to do, which was to clean up our

23 own ranks. I hope the word won't be taken the wrong way. We had already

24 initiated that activity. It didn't happen overnight. We were carrying

25 out checks, and any surplus staff were put at the disposal of the

Page 19722

1 departments of the Ministry of Defence. In parallel, we carried out

2 training and further education of the police force.

3 Q. Mr. Bjelosevic, if you can recall, when did you receive the

4 document we saw containing those conclusions of the 11th of July, 1992?

5 Can you remember, approximately?

6 A. I cannot. I don't know when it came to Doboj. I do know that

7 immediately upon my return, not waiting for the actual minutes to be

8 published, and based on what had been agreed upon, we immediately set

9 about implementing the collegium conclusions. At the time, we had

10 pronounced problems in the functioning of the communications system, and

11 the road between Doboj and Pale, where the seat was, was a complicated

12 one. One had to take different roads at a time, and it was difficult to

13 get through. So I can't tell you anything more precise than that.

14 Q. If you recall, according to all the conclusions of the

15 11th of July collegium, did the minister of the interior receive any

16 instructions?

17 A. Well, yes. And later on, supervision was exercised by inspectors

18 from the seat of the ministry over how those conclusions were

19 implemented.

20 Q. Did it happen that some of those documents containing

21 instructions were repeated a number of times by the ministry?

22 A. Yes. We saw one such document a moment ago, because we see the

23 words "I order" again. Before we received the minutes in its integral

24 form, we had received segments, individual documents, by way of orders to

25 implement specific measures relating to specific conclusions from the

Page 19723

1 meeting.

2 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry to interrupt, but I think there may have

3 been a problem in translation at page 75, line 1.

4 Question:

5 "If you recall," alledgedly we heard in English, "according to

6 all the conclusions of the 11th of July, did the minister of the interior

7 receive any instructions?"

8 The answer didn't seem to bear any relation to that, but I'm

9 wondering if that was a correct translation.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: It should have been

11 "Ministry of the Interior."

12 MR. ZECEVIC: It is, indeed, the wrong interpretation -- wrong --

13 I was recorded wrong. I said "sent from the ministry," Did the minister

14 of interior send any instructions concerning in relation to the decisions

15 of the collegium of the 11th?

16 Your Honours, I think it's the appropriate time, because I'm

17 about to move to another topic, so thank you.

18 Thank you, Mr. Bjelosevic.

19 JUDGE HALL: And so we take the adjournment for the week, and we

20 resume -- I believe we're back in Courtroom I on Monday morning at 9.00.

21 Mr. Bjelosevic, I would remind you of the caution that I gave you

22 at the adjournment the first day; that you aren't to discuss the case

23 with anyone until you are released as a witness.

24 I trust everyone has a safe weekend.

25 [The witness stands down]

Page 19724

1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.40 p.m.,

2 to be reconvened on Monday, the 18th day of April,

3 2011, at 9.00 a.m.