110719IT

Page 23499

1 JUDGE HALL: And, again, for the record, we sit under

2 Rule 15 bis. Thank you.

3 [The witness takes the stand]

4 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Macar, good morning to you. As Mr. Hannis

5 prepares to wind up, I give you the usual reminder as to your solemn

6 declaration.

7 Yes, Mr. Hannis.

8 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 WITNESS: GORAN MACAR [Resumed]

10 [Witness answered through interpreter]

11 Cross-examination by Mr. Hannis: [Continued]

12 Q. Mr. Macar, in 1992, did you personally participate in any

13 interrogations of prisoners?

14 A. Interpretation?

15 Q. Sorry, did you not hear my question? Did you, in 1992,

16 personally participate in any interrogation of prisoners?

17 I'll try one more time. In 1992, Mr. Macar, did you personally

18 participate in the interrogation of any prisoners?

19 We'll try another set.

20 Good morning, sir. Can you hear me now? Or are hearing

21 interpretation? Now, can you hear me?

22 A. Yes, yes, yes.

23 Q. Thank you. My first question was: In 1992, sir, did you

24 participate personally in the interrogation of any prisoners?

25 A. No.

Page 23500

1 Q. Were you in the room when interrogations were conducted by other

2 members of the RS MUP?

3 A. Perhaps in August, when we did the Yellow Wasps case, I may have

4 passed by their office to see what they were up to.

5 Now the sound in my headset is a little too strong.

6 Q. Too loud? We'll try and push the volume down for you.

7 Now, how's that?

8 A. Fantastic.

9 Q. Okay. You don't recall participating or being present during

10 interviews of certain Muslim policemen that had been taken prisoners

11 early in the war, say, April or May; and these interviews would have

12 taken place in Pale?

13 A. No, not as far as I remember. As I said, having arrived in Pale,

14 they went straight to Vrace, to the ministry HQ.

15 Q. All right. Let me ask you about -- one question about the

16 Yellow Wasps.

17 That investigation revealed information about Mr. Dusko or

18 Dusan Vuckovic, also known as Repic, you were aware, weren't you, that

19 Mr. Repic said after one of his first killing sprees at Celopek Dom,

20 after beatings and tortures and killings of several Muslim men at

21 Celopek, that he and the reserve policemen who were guarding those

22 prisoners had four of the survivors load the dead bodies on a truck, take

23 them away to be dumped in a pit, and that the reserve policemen then shot

24 and killed the remaining Muslims who had loaded the bodies on the truck.

25 That was information you knew about in August 1992, wasn't it?

Page 23501

1 A. If I'm not mistaken, I said it right the first time around.

2 Jurisdiction over the -- over that particular task and jurisdiction over

3 the investigation of Repic, and so on and so forth, was something that

4 was done to the military police, the military prosecutor and so on and so

5 forth.

6 Q. I understand that, but you're not answering my question. Did you

7 have that information that reserve police had been involved in killing

8 some of those Muslim prisoners?

9 MR. ZECEVIC: Can we have, Mr. Hannis, the reference for your

10 claim that this is in the -- in the statement of Repic and to whom this

11 statement was given.

12 MR. HANNIS: That's in Exhibit P1539. I'll show that to the

13 witness in a minute, but right now, I want to know if he recalls having

14 that information. Tab 31 of the Prosecution's list.

15 Q. Do you recall if you ever heard about that, about reserve police

16 having killed some of the prisoners from Celopek Dom in Zvornik?

17 A. I can't remember that. As a matter of principle, the military

18 police and the military security men would not send us any feedback, and

19 I can't remember.

20 I'd like to see that document, please.

21 Q. In a moment. But, if reserve policemen had killed civilian

22 prisoners, that would have been a matter that was subject for police

23 jurisdiction, investigation, and prosecution in civilian court; right?

24 A. Allegations would need to be checked and verified by civilian

25 bodies. Based on any information received, there would be a verification

Page 23502

1 procedure to ascertain the accuracy of the allegations and that's what

2 the procedure dictated.

3 Q. And if, in the course of investigating a crime, the police came

4 across information that the perpetrators were VRS, military personnel,

5 you would have forwarded that information to the military police; right?

6 That was standard procedure, wasn't it?

7 A. Whenever information was obtained by the ministry suggesting that

8 a military conscript committed a crime, the military police or the

9 military prosecutor would be informed, sometimes with a delay.

10 Perhaps you'll remember when we talked about 1992, when the

11 military prosecutors' offices were established and when touring the

12 various units and institutions, the administration's inspectors would

13 give instructions whenever such information was obtained to forward the

14 information to the relevant military prosecutors. The distance sometimes

15 exceeding several hundred metres between the place the information was

16 obtained and the relevant military prosecutor.

17 Q. Okay. I'll show you Exhibit P1539 now in fairness to you. It is

18 an Official Note of the interview with Mr. -- with Repic, Mr. Vuckovic.

19 And it was taken by the military police. It's dated the 4th of August,

20 1992.

21 MR. HANNIS: Could we go to the last page in both the English and

22 B/C/S, first of all, just to get the name ...

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I have a hard copy, please.

24 This is very difficult for me to follow.

25 MR. HANNIS:

Page 23503

1 Q. I'm sorry, I don't have a hard copy with me.

2 MR. ZECEVIC: I have the hard copy if ...

3 MR. HANNIS: If we could have the last page of English in

4 e-court.

5 Q. You see the statement was taken by Lieutenant Milan Stankovic, as

6 I recall. Did you -- did you know him? Do you remember him being there

7 to help with the processing of the Yellow Wasps?

8 A. I don't remember that person. As I said, the military police

9 would receive and assess information, obtained probably from other bodies

10 too, and they would act on that. They handled cases that concerned

11 components or members of the military forces that committed crimes --

12 Q. You've said that --

13 A. -- throughout Zvornik municipality.

14 Q. You've told us about that before. So you're saying

15 Lieutenant Stankovic and the military police never shared this

16 information with the MUP? Is that what you are saying?

17 A. No. Yes.

18 Q. "No. Yes." Does that mean you're saying they did not share the

19 information with you? You're sure of that?

20 A. I'm 100 percent certain that they did not share this information

21 with me.

22 Q. Or anyone else in the MUP?

23 A. Well, that is a question for, for instance, Mr. Stankovic and his

24 senior officers. I don't have that information.

25 Q. Okay. Can you think of any reason why the military police would

Page 23504

1 not want to inform your organ about the allegation that reserve policemen

2 had killed civilians? Generally speaking, weren't the police all too --

3 weren't the military authorities all too happy to advise you whenever

4 they came across a policeman involved in a crime?

5 A. I really can't speculate --

6 Q. Okay.

7 A. -- what the reason might be.

8 Q. Fair enough.

9 A. If you looked at the crime police files and archives, you would,

10 no doubt, realise that there was precious little information that we ever

11 obtained from the military.

12 Q. Okay. Well, we have some documents that talk about how much

13 information was shared in evidence. We'll look at those.

14 Did you know a Goran Sehovac who, as I understand it, I think was

15 the chief of the Ilidza SJB at some point in time, in perhaps late 1992?

16 Did you know him?

17 A. I met Mr. Sehovac, I can't remember when, in the middle of the

18 war or sometime towards the end of the war, and after the war. That's

19 when I met him a little better.

20 Q. Did you not hear about the event in Kula police station in

21 Sarajevo where he discharged his weapon during, I think, some sort of

22 party or celebration, and killed a -- another Serb named Vlado Vidacak?

23 A. I'd like to be reminded of the time-period. I do remember, and I

24 remember that this happened. I don't remember any details, though. I

25 know that the Sarajevo CSB checked the circumstances of the event.

Page 23505

1 Q. Yes. I believe it was mid-October 1992. Did you know that

2 Tomo Kovac, Simo Tusevljak, Drago Borovcanin, Zoran Cvijetic were all

3 present when this incident occurred?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Did you know dispatch was sent to the Minister Stanisic the next

6 day to advise him of the circumstances of that event?

7 A. I can't speculate with any precision. I don't know if a dispatch

8 was sent to the minister. As for the event itself, I don't know if I

9 knew about it right there and then, in 1992, or early 1993. I can't be

10 very specific in my speculation. I know there was an investigation and

11 the preliminary steps were taken by the Sarajevo CSB.

12 Q. On the face, sounds like a more serious violation than

13 Mr. Andan's poker machine. Were you aware if Mr. Sehovac was ever

14 disciplined or removed from the service or criminally prosecuted for that

15 event; do you know?

16 A. If memory serves, did he? But I think it was in that sense. I'd

17 like to be reminded and see some documents. I think the investigation,

18 the steps that were taken by the CSB, established that the weapon was

19 used in self-defence. I'd like to see some documents to be able to

20 establish a time-frame for myself, but I think it was in that context

21 that the report was produced by the CSB.

22 Q. Okay. I'm sorry, I don't have any --

23 A. This is based on my memory. Just to be sure.

24 Q. I understand. Do you know a Tomo Macar? I believe he worked for

25 a while as the police chief in -- or deputy police chief in Janja, which

Page 23506

1 is near Bijeljina. Do you know him?

2 A. Tomo Macar was with the Bijeljina CSB. As far as I know, after

3 the war, he was assistant commander of the uniformed component of the

4 Janja police station.

5 Q. Are you aware that he was arrested in, I think, March of 2009 in

6 connection with allegations of abuse of position dealing with an

7 investigation about the issuing of forged personal documents with an

8 emphasis on links to helping hide people indicted by this Tribunal?

9 Did you hear about that in 2009 or later?

10 A. I read about it in the media, but any details should probably be

11 provided by the RS Ministry of the Interior.

12 Q. He's originally from Sokolac, isn't he?

13 A. No, he's not.

14 Q. Where's he from?

15 A. He lived in Han Pijesak and Sarajevo, as far as I know.

16 Q. Okay.

17 A. I'm not sure if that means anything. I am myself from Sokolac.

18 I knew many persons there named Macar. I still do. He is from the

19 branch of the Macar family that straddles the border between Han Pijesak

20 and Sokolac municipalities. Just for your information, it's a

21 century-old family living in the areas of Nevesinje and Tjentiste. There

22 used to be some in Gorazde but there are none around now, as well as

23 Pale, Sokolac and Han Pijesak. The first time the family occurs in

24 written documents in the Dubrovnik state archive dates back to 1274 [as

25 interpreted]. I was just showing my daughter that book the other day and

Page 23507

1 I was actually quite jealous because actually the Stanisic family name

2 occurs in 1373 which is a full year before my family name occurs in

3 written documents.

4 Q. Well, speaking of relations between Macars and Stanisics, isn't

5 Tomo Macar a brother-in-law of Mico Stanisic? You know Mr. Stanisic very

6 well. You know that, don't you?

7 A. I know Mr. Stanisic from my professional life. But I don't

8 really know him all that well personally. His habit, as well as mine,

9 was not to mix business and private life.

10 Q. Okay. But can you answer my question.

11 A. And as for -- I'll answer your question.

12 As far as Mr. Tomo Macar is concerned, I met him in 1993, when --

13 Q. No, please. Please Mr. Macar.

14 A. May I explain, please, when I found out about --

15 Q. My question is: Do you know that Tomo Macar is a brother-in-law

16 of Mico Stanisic? That's a yes or no question.

17 A. I found out in 1993 that Tomo Macar was Mico Stanisic's

18 brother-in-law. And I had never realised that any of the Macar family

19 were close relations to Mico Stanisic. Not ever, until 1993, as I said.

20 Q. Okay.

21 A. As for the rest, Mr. Tomo Macar and I are no close relations. I

22 met him only in 1993.

23 Q. Okay. Let me ask you about another Macar that you are related

24 to.

25 Zoran Macar is your brother; right?

Page 23508

1 A. Yes, that's true. He is a year and a half my senior.

2 Q. And in 1992 and 1993, he worked for the Sokolac police; right?

3 A. No.

4 Q. No? Where did he work?

5 A. No. In 1992, Zoran Macar was a member of the VRS.

6 Q. And in 1993?

7 A. In 1993, he spent seven months with the Ministry of the Interior

8 in the crime prevention administration, specifically in the anti-

9 sabotage unit.

10 Q. Did you know a Miro Seslija who dealt with a -- explosives in the

11 RS MUP?

12 A. Mr. Miro Seslija was head of the anti-sabotage unit. He wasn't

13 into explosives, not during his time with the MUP. He was dealing with

14 anti-sabotage activities. As for the rest, and please feel free to ask,

15 I know The Hague investigators spoke to my brother.

16 Q. Okay. How about Brano Mandic, cousin to Momcilo Mandic, do you

17 know him?

18 A. Brano Mandic was an employee of the Ministry of the Interior,

19 even before the war broke out. He was also involved in anti-sabotage

20 work. As to the degree of kinship between the two persons you specified

21 I don't know about that. I don't think he ever pointed out the existence

22 of any family links between them.

23 Q. How about a Sretan Forkan [phoen] who worked in the Foca police,

24 did he also deal with anti-sabotage?

25 A. I think he worked for a while in the Sarajevo centre. I'm not

Page 23509

1 sure if it was anti-sabotage work, or whatever. And I can't remember

2 what became of him later.

3 Q. And --

4 A. I do know that he was often used. The anti-sabotage mostly dealt

5 with anti-sabotage work as it related to buildings, facilities and the

6 safety of persons.

7 Q. Okay.

8 A. 90 per cent of their work was about securing the Assembly

9 building, the government buildings, and certain other institutions. They

10 weren't working with explosives.

11 Q. All right. One more person and then one question about the whole

12 group. Sredo Vucenovic, nicknamed Terrorist, did you know him?

13 Apparently from Banja Luka police. Did he also work with anti-sabotage?

14 A. Mr. Vucenovic worked in the anti-sabotage unit. In the former

15 MUP there would be anti-sabotage units in all of the local organisations,

16 and the same applied to the crime prevention administration. And for a

17 while, too, the state security.

18 Q. And isn't it a fact that you were involved in having these men

19 come to Bijeljina and they actually blew up five mosques in March 1993?

20 Would you like some more water?

21 A. Honourable Judges, this question, I believe, is -- I won't say it

22 is disrespectful or anything like that, but I did suggest to the

23 Prosecutor to freely address me because ... I know about information that

24 I received in Bijeljina. The worst of it is the fact that this

25 information was conveyed to me by a former member of the Ministry of the

Page 23510

1 Interior in a drunken state. I don't think it's a problem for me to name

2 him in public. Mr. Ostoja Minic. He was drunk when he told me -- this

3 may entail the use of some foul language. Perhaps you would like me to

4 quote him, perhaps in closed session or I might as well say it like that.

5 He said I fucked their mother --

6 Q. No, please. My question was: Did you --

7 A. And --

8 Q. Did you do this? You can say yes or no.

9 A. Well, you know, it's a ridiculous question. It's ridiculous to

10 establish any link between me and somebody like that or indeed anyone

11 from the anti-sabotage unit.

12 Q. One of the persons I linked you to is --

13 A. My answer is no.

14 Q. Thank you. And do you know for a fact that five mosques were

15 destroyed in Bijeljina in March 1993? That did happen, didn't it?

16 A. Yes, it did.

17 Q. Thank you. No more questions.

18 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Zecevic.

19 Re-examination by Mr. Zecevic:

20 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Macar, let us continue where Mr. Hannis

21 broke off.

22 The demolition of these five mosques, your role in that in 1993.

23 So tell me, we heard that you confirmed that these events did happen. As

24 far as you know, was that ever investigated?

25 A. Yes. It was investigated. The public security station and the

Page 23518

1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, therefore, exhibit numbers assigned

2 will be L333, L334, and L335. Thank you.

3 MR. ZECEVIC: And just for the record, the 1D181 will be

4 de-MFI'd?

5 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

6 JUDGE HALL: I understand either -- either way is preferable.

7 There is no preference from the Registry's point of view, so ...

8 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you very much.

9 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Macar, could you please finish your previous

10 answer.

11 A. Four or five days after the 15th of March, the day known as the

12 day the command of the 2nd Army District in Sarajevo was laid siege to, I

13 went to the Cenex company owned by Alija Delimustafic and his brothers.

14 I was on my way there to hand over the money that was due, proceeds from

15 my family shop run by my brother and my parents at Sokolac. I got some

16 of my supplies from that company for our family shop.

17 At the entrance to their offices, and I think that was sometime

18 in the morning, between 9.00 and 10.00 in the morning that day, I met

19 Alija Delimustafic. He invited me to his office. I wanted to explain to

20 him briefly the reason for my visit. I said 32.000 German marks had

21 arrived to be used to pay for the previously delivered merchandise.

22 Normally payments would be postponed, and this amounted to about

23 16.000 euro. He looked at me, he lowered his bag, or briefcase, and

24 asked me to come with him to another room in a different part of the

25 building. It was like a club room that he used for meeting his business

Page 23519

1 partners. There were perhaps four or five chairs there around a table.

2 The first thing I noticed was that he ordered a whiskey, and that

3 was the first time I ever saw him order hard liquor like that. When the

4 drinks arrived, he raised a toast to me and he said, Goran, don't pay. I

5 remember his words very well. This will all go down the drain. My

6 people have decided to press the issue to the bitter end.

7 At first, I was confused by his offer to not pay. At the time,

8 you would have been able to buy two Golf passenger vehicles for that kind

9 of money. At the same time, his remark reverberated in my head, what he

10 said about everything going down the drain and his people pressing the

11 issue to the bitter end, or taking the issue to the bitter end.

12 Confused as I was, I asked him, Alija -- because that's how I

13 normally addressed him. We were neighbours in Marin Dvor and I had known

14 him for quite a number of years. I said, Alija, can you please explain

15 this? Because he really gave the impression of being very worried. He

16 looked very worried. And he said, Goran, can't you see what's going on?

17 And he listed all sorts of different things. First he talked about the

18 army district command case and the inability to relay tensions in the

19 ministry itself or, indeed, on the ground. To be perfectly frank, I was

20 confused.

21 There were some other comments that were made, but, eventually I

22 answered. Alija, you know, and I think I used this word, if there is

23 trouble, even that will, one day, be over, and we might continue to work

24 together afterwards, after the trouble is over. I said, Neither my

25 brother nor I can agree to this non-payment proposal. I handed over to

Page 23520

1 him an envelope containing some German marks and some dinars. We were

2 using the currency exchange rate that was used on the black market and

3 whenever you bought something, it would always be converted like that,

4 according to that rate. And we parted in some confusion, I do remember

5 that, and all I can say is that I haven't seen him since.

6 Q. Thank you. Sir, at page 21261, the Prosecutor showed you P2320.

7 This is Prosecution tab 79. And we should soon have it on our screens.

8 Mr. Hannis asked you the following question:

9 "You will agree that Mr. Delimustafic and the collegium wanted to

10 stop this process and were calling on all members of the MUP to go back

11 to work and to perform their regular duties as of no later than the

12 2nd of April?"

13 And then your answer.

14 Sir, I think we talked about this. After the review at Sokolac

15 on the 30th of March, did you go back to the BH MUP to go on performing

16 your routine duties there?

17 A. Yes, I did.

18 Q. Did you continue to work as usual until the 3rd of April?

19 A. I would go to work every day, as usual, until the 3rd of April.

20 And if I may just add one thing, briefly, something that I was

21 trying to tell Mr. Hannis, even this dispatch signed by the collegium

22 does not invalidate Mr. Mandic's previous dispatch. Not that I can see.

23 Q. Thank you. The fact remains the dispatch in front of us right

24 now was signed by Mandic; right?

25 A. Yes. I believe that's his signature. I don't remember exactly

Page 23521

1 what it looked like, but it certainly looks like it might be that.

2 Q. If you look at the header of the document there is a reference to

3 dispatch UZSK, number 2, dated the 23rd -- the 31st of March, 1992. It's

4 a dispatch number 022482 and that's a dispatch sent by Mandic on the

5 31st of March.

6 Do you agree with that, sir?

7 A. Yes, I do.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Zecevic, please.

9 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Let's move on.

10 Q. Page 23187. You were shown 1D46.

11 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have that on our

12 screens. Thank you. This is OTP tab 104.

13 Q. An order dated the 15th of May, 1992 - could we please go to

14 page 2 of the document - signed by Mico Stanisic, Minister of the

15 Interior.

16 Do you recognise Mr. Stanisic's signature there, sir?

17 A. Yes, I do.

18 Q. The same page, 23187, you were asked by Mr. Hannis:

19 "Do you know whether this staff ever met? Did it ever start

20 operating in 1992?"

21 And you said:

22 "I think this body never operated."

23 And Mr. Hannis asked you the following question:

24 "At least you didn't go to any meeting convened by this staff;

25 right?"

Page 23522

1 And you answered:

2 "That's true, I didn't."

3 And then it goes on like that.

4 Sir, did anyone at the MUP HQ ever tell you that a meeting of

5 this staff had been held?

6 A. No, never. No one of told me that a meeting had been held or,

7 indeed, that anyone had attended a meeting of this staff.

8 Q. Did you ever see any decisions or orders signed by a body like

9 that called the staff?

10 A. No, never.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

13 P530, the Law on Internal Affairs.

14 Q. Mr. Hannis wanted you to comment on it. This is 23225 of the

15 LiveNote.

16 He asked you specifically about -- my apologies.

17 I can't find the reference at this point in time.

18 It was about Mr. Hannis's question. I'll have to read this in

19 the English just to make sure everything is complete.

20 [In English] "Mr. Hannis: Okay. Thank you. Now could you look

21 at the phrase for me and tell me what you understand that to mean,

22 because it says:

23 "'... regulations passed by the municipal assembly and relating

24 to the law and order and road safety ...'

25 "And then it says:

Page 23523

1 "'... as well as other regulation in the domain of internal

2 affairs ...'

3 "What does that mean? Can you give me an example of regulation

4 that would be in the domain of internal affairs that doesn't relate to

5 law and order and road safety?"

6 Your answer:

7 "Well, I can't really recall and I don't want to speculate?"

8 [Interpretation] You remember that particular exchange with

9 Mr. Hannis, don't you?

10 A. I do.

11 Q. Sir, do you know that -- do you know whether in some

12 municipalities in the territory of the former Socialist Federative

13 Republic of Yugoslavia regulations were passed about bans on pouring

14 alcoholic drinks in catering establishments anywhere throughout that

15 territory?

16 A. Yes. That included certain regulations concerning the business

17 hours of these catering establishments as well.

18 Q. Do you know that municipal assemblies passed certain regulations

19 banning the consumption of alcoholic beverages before 11.00 in the

20 morning?

21 A. I can't remember at this point in time.

22 Q. 11.00 was just by way of an example. It could have been a

23 different point in time. But it was about banning the sales of alcoholic

24 beverages before a certain time in the day.

25 A. There were regulations that were passed about the procedures

Page 23524

1 applied in catering establishments while conducting business, but there

2 were regulations like that that applied to rallies and public meetings

3 being held as well.

4 Q. I am being told that this is Article 27, which is page 4 of the

5 law.

6 What about the following regulation: A regulation imposing a

7 speed limit in a settlement or a village because of the vicinity of a

8 school or a creche? Can that be considered to be part of the same

9 regulations under Article 27?

10 A. Yes. As well as sounding your horn, for example, near a school,

11 a hospital, or a creche.

12 Q. I've used that example already, so I might just rehash it for the

13 present purpose.

14 Visegrad municipality, for example, adopts a decision to protect

15 the old bridge across the Drina River. For that purpose, they decide to

16 ban all traffic across the bridge, or perhaps to ban heavy vehicles from

17 using the bridge. Would that also be an example of regulations under

18 Article 27?

19 A. Yes, that's right.

20 Q. Be that as it may, but did members of the Ministry of the

21 Interior, based on such regulations, have a responsibility to act in

22 compliance with these regulations?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Mr. Macar, if there was a municipal regulation adopted on a

25 municipal level that ran counter to the letter of the law, in a case like

Page 23525

1 that, would the Ministry of the Interior still have to act in compliance

2 with that regulation?

3 A. Not only would it be under no obligation to implement something

4 like that, but it would not have the authority to do that, as long as the

5 regulation in question ran counter to any existing law that applied at

6 the time throughout the territory.

7 Q. Thank you. 22899 is the page reference in the LiveNote.

8 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] There was a verification request

9 there.

10 23230 is the next reference.

11 Q. Just to clarify one thing. Mr. Hannis asked you a question there

12 over the total number of CSB heads and we know that there were five:

13 Trebinje, Doboj, Sarajevo, Banja Luka, and Bijeljina. So over that

14 number, do you know how many of those were appointed by the minister in

15 1992? And you say:

16 "He probably appointed all those heads himself. Their personal

17 files should reflect the fact that he either signed the relevant

18 decisions or not."

19 Mr. Macar, tell me, please, out of these five, Trebinje, Doboj,

20 Sarajevo, Banja Luka, and Bijeljina, which CSBs existed before the

21 1st of April, 1992?

22 A. The Banja Luka centre and the Doboj centre.

23 Q. Do you know the names of the chiefs of these centres in

24 Banja Luka and Doboj before the 1st of April, 1992?

25 A. I think that Mr. Bjelosevic and Mr. Zupljanin were chiefs there

Page 23526

1 before the 1st of April, 1992.

2 Q. Thank you. Now let's move onto a topic that Mr. Hannis devoted a

3 lot of attention to in his cross-examination. Page -- it begins on

4 page 23235. It has to do with war crimes committed against ethnic Serbs.

5 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we look at two documents

6 first. Could the witness be shown 961D1, which is tab 7 in the OTP

7 binder.

8 Q. Sir, this is a form of the decision, an -- an empty form that has

9 a signature and a seal. Whose signature is this?

10 A. Mico Stanisic.

11 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown 1D91,

12 which is Defence tab 111.

13 Q. Sir, please look at these documents before you now. First,

14 there's a text of an order, and then there's a handwritten text, and

15 there are two signatures.

16 Whose signatures are these?

17 A. Mr. Stanisic's, the first one; and I believe the second one as

18 well.

19 Q. Thank you. Now please look at P173, tab 13. This is a document

20 shown to you by the Prosecution.

21 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown page 2,

22 please. I'm particularly interested in the signature at the bottom of

23 that page in the Serbian.

24 Q. Sir, earlier we saw some signatures that you were able to

25 recognise. Do you recognise this signature; and, if so, whose is it?

Page 23527

1 A. Mr. Stanisic's.

2 Q. This, too, is the signature of Mr. Stanisic.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown 1D635,

6 please.

7 [Defence counsel confer]

8 MR. ZECEVIC:

9 Q. [Interpretation] I also showed this document to you. Do you

10 remember this?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And then Mr. Hannis asked you about this document, and you

13 discussed it.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. The question of Mr. Hannis was ...

16 So Mr. Hannis asked you about whether you knew why you would be

17 duty-bound to provide information to the Federal Secretariat of the

18 Interior. Do you remember that question?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Let me just show you P181, which is tab 112; Article 3 of the

21 constitution. Tab 112.

22 A. I have found it.

23 Q. We're waiting for it to appear on the screen.

24 Sir, this is the text of the constitution of the Serbian Republic

25 of Bosnia and Herzegovina from the Official Gazette. Article 1 says:

Page 23528

1 "The Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina is a state of

2 Serbian people and citizens living therein."

3 Would you please read out Article 3 of the constitution?

4 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we see the English text as

5 well.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right.

7 "The Republic is a part of the federal state of Yugoslavia."

8 MR. ZECEVIC:

9 Q. [Interpretation] Does this pertain to Serb Republic of Bosnia and

10 Herzegovina?

11 A. Yes. Because this is the constitution of the Serb Republic of

12 Bosnia and Herzegovina.

13 Q. Thank you. Sir, we will now go back to the document which had

14 been shown to you, P173, tab 113 of the Prosecution. We just saw that

15 document earlier. It speaks of war crimes.

16 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel repeat the number of the

17 document, please.

18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zecevic --

19 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] P173; page 2, please, which is the

20 Prosecution tab 13. Page 23235, and then 236, 7, and 8 of the

21 transcript.

22 Q. Sir, you remember that you spent quite a lot of time discussing

23 this document with Mr. Hannis and discussing war crimes committed against

24 members of the Serb nation.

25 A. Yes.

Page 23529

1 Q. And then, in a part of your answer, you said that there was a

2 campaign, a visible campaign, against ethnic Serbs in the media and that

3 this is why they insisted on making sure that this material is documented

4 and presented.

5 A. Yes. Presented in the public and provided to certain organs, in

6 order to be presented to the public.

7 Q. Yes. Now tell me, sir, in that period of time, in 1992, or at

8 least in mid-1992, because this document is from May of 1992, the cases

9 of crimes where the Serbs were victims, were they treated different by

10 the media than the crimes where the victims came from other ethnic

11 communities?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Tell me, please, as far as you know from the media, was it

14 typical for all cases of crimes against Serbs to be doubted in the media?

15 Did the media express doubts about it?

16 A. The media, outside of Bosnia and Herzegovina, either didn't

17 report on this, or if the victims were, indeed, Serbs, it was portrayed

18 in the media as a crime against some other ethnic community.

19 I remember that there was a case where a crime was committed

20 somewhere near the Drina River, and there was a picture of a mother

21 holding the skull of her son. And I remember that in some media, it was

22 portrayed as a crime against non-Serb victims, and the expression of pain

23 was quite palpable. I remember that particular case. And in most cases,

24 there was no information whatsoever.

25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

Page 23530

1 JUDGE DELVOIE: [Microphone not activated]. Microphone, please.

2 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

3 Q. [Interpretation] And that fact, in your view, did it affect and

4 did it have anything to do with this document, where they ask that the

5 crimes against Serbs be documented in every possible way, in great

6 detail?

7 A. Yes. I believe that that was also one of the reasons.

8 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown, please,

9 P1977, which is tab 109 in the Defence binder.

10 Q. I have for you the hard copy.

11 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please assist us.

12 Q. Sir, this document has 11 pages, and on the last page, we see the

13 typed text, "Dr. Radovan Karadzic, President of the Presidency." The

14 document has not been signed, but on the first page, it says:

15 "Pursuant to Article 7.5 of the Law on Defence and pursuant to

16 the proposal of the cabinet of the government, the President hereby

17 adopts guide-lines on tasks, modes of action and functioning of defence

18 forces of state organs and subjects, in the field of economy and social

19 activities in the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, in the

20 state of war."

21 Tell me, please, have you seen this document before?

22 A. I remember some things from this document, but I don't know for

23 sure when I saw it.

24 Q. This document includes guide-lines for work in the areas of

25 defence, internal affairs, judiciary, and public administration, finance,

Page 23531

1 the economy, social work, foreign policy, and others. These are

2 nine separate chapters in all.

3 Let us take a look at page 3 and item 7 on that page. The

4 subheading reads: "Defence-related tasks." It says:

5 "The Ministry of Defence in co-operation with the Main Staff and

6 the commands and units of the army will solve manning of the units

7 continuously, as -- as well as materiel and technical supplies, for the

8 army, importing young soldiers into the registers, recruitment pursuant

9 to the needs of the army, referring the young recruits to training

10 centres," et cetera.

11 Mr. Macar, do you remember that the Ministry of Defence acted

12 pursuant to this guide-line in 1992 or later?

13 A. Yes, it did. And it was the only body that had remit over these

14 issues.

15 Q. Let us turn to the following page. I'm interested in item 9

16 under the subheading: "Tasks in the field of internal affairs."

17 Item 9 reads:

18 "The minister of the internal affairs should adjust its war-time

19 structure to the needs and tasks in war-time conditions ..."

20 And then there is a list of activities: Public law and order,

21 traffic, and so on. All these matters are specified by law.

22 Did the ministry act in accordance with these guide-lines?

23 A. Yes, it did. Only it had an additional obligation, and that is

24 resubordination to the Army of the RS for purposes of defence.

25 Q. We'll get there yet. We're now talking about the first

Page 23532

1 paragraph of item 9. These things listed here, such as public law and

2 order, traffic control, physical protection, intelligence and

3 counter-intelligence, the protection and control of border crossings,

4 issuing of identity documents, and so on, all these things that the

5 ministry was tasked with, was that done in keeping with the

6 Law on Internal Affairs of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and

7 Herzegovina?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. In paragraph 2 of this item, item 9, we read that the minister of

10 internal affairs shall adopt a special enactment on the internal

11 structure of the Ministry of Internal Affairs in war-time conditions, and

12 so on.

13 So tell me, sir, we saw a document dated 15 May about the

14 establishment of the MUP staff of which you said that it never really

15 operated, that you never heard anyone say that it did, nor that you

16 attended any meeting of that body. For the sake of reference, that's

17 1D46.

18 When it is said here that the minister of internal affairs shall

19 adopt a special enactment, could that be this document that I have just

20 mentioned?

21 A. That's possible. But I don't know that this document was

22 implemented, but it may refer to these tasks.

23 Q. And the last paragraph of item 9 reads:

24 "Both active and reserve police, as well as members of units for

25 special tasks, which are not part of the war-time structure of the

Page 23533

1 ministry ... will be placed at the disposal of the army units or -- or

2 assigned to other war-time tasks."

3 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel please repeat his question.

4 JUDGE HALL: Well, we started a little later, so you can go for

5 another five minutes or so if the witness is able to continue.

6 MR. ZECEVIC:

7 Q. [Interpretation] I must repeat the question, sir.

8 Does this paragraph, 3, is this what you spoke about when you

9 were amending your answer about the first question pertaining to this

10 item?

11 A. I cannot be as precise as to say that I was referring to this

12 language. But, as far as I remember, I spoke about the need that, in

13 case of combat operations and resubordination of the police, the police

14 should act as an organised unit rather than as individuals that were

15 assigned to the army. And I also explained that what could not be

16 covered by the existing organisation had to be resubordinated to the army

17 because we wouldn't have been able to account for the surplus.

18 Q. Item 10, which is the second item on this page of the document;

19 that's page 5, and I'm interested in the second paragraph of item 10,

20 which also spells out the tasks of the Ministry of the Interior.

21 It reads:

22 "The Ministry of Internal Affairs and its organisational elements

23 shall collect and process the data and material on ... crimes committed

24 and genocide of the civilian population."

25 Sir, this task of the MUP, was it carried out?

Page 23534

1 A. Yes. The MUP documented war crimes committed against the

2 civilian population without distinguishing on the basis of ethnicity, to

3 the extent it had any information.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 The following subheading reads: "Tasks in the field of judiciary

6 and public administration."

7 And item 13 says:

8 "The judiciary bodies of the state shall closely cooperate with

9 military judiciary bodies, especially with regard to status issues of

10 prisoners of labour," it says here "... and detained persons, then to

11 collecting information and evidence for the initiation of procedure --

12 proceedings against the perpetrators of crimes and genocidal actions, as

13 well as ... other issues of collecting evidence," and so on, "whether

14 they are military or civilian perpetrators."

15 Sir, can you comment on this task that the president gave the

16 Ministry of Justice?

17 A. It is clear the duties of the civilian and military judiciary

18 bodies are very clearly outlined.

19 Q. On the following page, which is page 6, item 13 is repeated, but

20 that is obviously a typo. And we read:

21 "The Ministry of Justice and public administration, in

22 co-operation with the Presidency and the government of the Serbian

23 Republic ... shall intensify the work of the state commission for the

24 establishment of crimes and genocide against the civilian population and

25 victims of war, and the state commission for the exchange of prisoners of

Page 23535

1 war and detained persons, and they shall ... co-operation with

2 international organisations and courts and the organs of the

3 United Nations regarding the scope of work of these commissions."

4 And then it says that international -- the international law of

5 war shall be strictly observed.

6 Can you comment on this item, too?

7 A. Yes. This item, which should be item 14 [as interpreted] because

8 it follows after 15, it is clearly stated what the state commission for

9 the establishment of crimes is to do. In practice, in many cases they

10 deviated from this task. They also engaged in some activities that were

11 not in their remit. That's why I often had clashes with that commission.

12 I even demanded at meetings that their tasks be even more precisely

13 defined, and I also wanted somebody to tell them that they cannot engage

14 any activities from the remit of the MUP. Especially they were not

15 allowed to conceal any information or documents in order to publish books

16 and so on.

17 Q. Tell me, sir, does this item mention the issue of the ethnicity

18 of the victims or the civilian population as anything relevant?

19 A. No. This item mentions civilian population without

20 distinguishing on ethnic or any other grounds.

21 Q. In the previous item on page 5, the task given to the

22 Ministry of Justice about -- I believe that this is a typo too. These

23 are not prisoners of labour but prisoners of war and detained persons.

24 Can you comment --

25 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Zecevic, if you're going on to something new,

Page 23536

1 perhaps we could take the break at this point?

2 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, Your Honours.

3 JUDGE HALL: Yes. So we return in 15 minutes.

4 [The witness stands down]

5 --- Recess taken at 11.53 a.m.

6 --- On resuming at 12.14 p.m.

7 [The witness takes the stand]

8 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

9 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, item 13, page 5, under heading 4: "Tasks

10 in the field of the judiciary and administration."

11 What specific state organs, based on these guide-lines, did the

12 President of the Presidency confer authority upon in relation to

13 prisoners of war and detainees?

14 A. The justice ministry from the RS government who were to cooperate

15 with military courts and prosecutors in taking certain steps.

16 Q. What about your own recollection? Does your own recollection

17 suggest that this was, indeed, the case back in 1992, and these bodies

18 were, indeed, dealing with these issues?

19 A. Late 1992, I received information about that a month or two or

20 three months later, suggesting that the representatives of the ministry

21 of the RS performed some of the jobs, in terms of gaining insight into

22 the situation in some municipalities and some specific facilities.

23 Q. Sir, just let's take one thing at a time please.

24 My question was as follows: What about your own recollection?

25 Does your own recollection suggest that that was indeed the case back in

Page 23537

1 1992 and these bodies, meaning the justice ministry and the military

2 bodies, were, indeed, dealing with these persons or these issues? Yes or

3 no.

4 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I object to the leading form of the

5 question and the fact is he did answer the question when it was first

6 asked.

7 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, I wasn't -- I didn't find that this was

8 the -- the answer to my, I believe, proper question. What is -- what was

9 your recollection.

10 Q. [Interpretation] Please answer, sir.

11 A. If memory serves, the justice ministry took certain measures

12 along with the relevant military bodies. I can't be more specific as to

13 what type of contact and, and ... and the mode of communication.

14 Q. What about the Ministry of the Interior? Were they, too,

15 involved in the contacts between the justice ministry, on the one hand,

16 and the military authorities, on the other, regarding these issues?

17 A. I don't know that the role of the ministry or anyone from the

18 Ministry of the Interior had anything to do with these tasks.

19 Q. Thank you. You will remember that - just to move on to something

20 else - that at one point in time you were asked a question about some

21 information that I had previously shown you, and then Mr. Hannis quoted

22 your answer at 22967. It was about the question of vetting personnel in

23 the public security stations and CSBs, and according to your answer, it

24 also had to do with anomalies in certain municipalities where chiefs of

25 public security stations were unable to have proper communication and to

Page 23538

1 make sure the proposed appointments materialised because of obstruction

2 by municipal leaders.

3 Mr. Hannis read your own answer back to you and you said that it

4 had not been properly interpreted. In the meantime we submitted a

5 verification request to establish what you really said, and we

6 established that there was an error in the transcript, which has, in the

7 meantime, been corrected.

8 Your answer to my question was this. I asked you:

9 "Tell me this: This reminding by dispatch the municipality

10 presidents and Executive Board presidents, did that yield any results,

11 and if so, what results, partial, fully successful, or less successful?"

12 And your answer was:

13 "In one part of the municipalities, despite this instruction, not

14 to call it a warning, there were no results. If anything, there was even

15 more obstruction later."

16 Tell me, sir, which municipalities specifically did you have in

17 mind when you said this?

18 A. First and foremost, Samac municipality which was available to me

19 based on reports. Prijedor municipality as well, where I had some

20 personal experiences. I also know there was a lot of obstructionism and

21 many attempts to exert undue influence when appointments were made in

22 Bijeljina, specifically the Bijeljina centre. There was a lot of

23 turnover regarding the personnel moving from one area to another. I

24 think back in 1993 there were some attempts to exert pressure on the

25 ministry, specifically from Bijeljina, and you can tell if you look at

Page 23539

1 our working meetings in some of the reports that were later issued.

2 Q. Just to be as specific as we possibly can, since you're expanding

3 again. We want to know about 1992. In this specific answer, which

4 municipalities were you talking about, in relation to 1992 alone?

5 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry. Can we clarify for the witness that the

6 document is dated the 20th of November, 1992, so in which municipalities

7 after 20 November 1992 was there even greater obstruction.

8 MR. ZECEVIC: I agree.

9 Q. [Interpretation] You heard the question, sir. Which

10 municipalities were you referring to? The document is dated

11 November 1992. So which specific municipalities were you referring to,

12 but only in relation to 1992.

13 A. Samac, above all.

14 Q. What about Prijedor?

15 A. I had some direct experience with the station chief. He stated

16 at one point that he had not received any orders from his own superior

17 officers. He told us about this when he took us to have breakfast there.

18 So Prijedor would fall under that. The municipal bosses, the Crisis

19 Staff --

20 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I think the record shows

21 that the visit to Prijedor was on the 15th of November, one day after the

22 witness's birthday, and therefore five days before this document.

23 MR. ZECEVIC:

24 Q. [Interpretation] I was just about to ask you the question, sir.

25 You were in Prijedor on the 15th of November. This document is dated the

Page 23540

1 20th of November. You said that obstruction continued. Based on what do

2 you say that, that obstruction continued after the 20th of November,

3 1992, as you suggested? I'm talking about Prijedor.

4 A. Apart from my direct personal experience, you asked me about

5 1992, right? So I told you my direct personal experience of actually

6 going there. I know about the minister's orders to public security

7 stations telling them to keep on vetting their own men. And I know the

8 Banja Luka centre was unable to do that for Prijedor.

9 Q. Was that in 1992?

10 MR. HANNIS: After the 20th November, 1992.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 1992, yes. I wasn't specifically

12 talking about this November or that November.

13 MR. ZECEVIC:

14 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Macar, please concentrate. I have had to

15 ask you quite a number of times to try and stay focussed in your answers

16 in order to avoid wasting time.

17 You confirm that after this summons on the 20th of November,

18 obstruction continued in some of the municipalities. My question was

19 which municipalities, and you said Samac and Prijedor.

20 After that, you provided, in relation to Prijedor, the example of

21 your own direct personal experience five days previously, previous to

22 this 20th November mark. We're talking about obstruction that continued

23 from the 20th of November on to the end of December 1992, in the case of

24 Prijedor.

25 A. I know that even after that date the chief of the public security

Page 23541

1 station [as interpreted] still couldn't comply with this order to appoint

2 personnel in keeping with what the centre was proposing.

3 Q. Thank you very much. Sir, at page 23254 ...

4 [Defence counsel confer]

5 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] There's an error in transcript; 42,

6 line 18.

7 Q. Did you say the chief of the public security station or the chief

8 of the CSB?

9 A. The chief of the Banja Luka CSB could not comply because of

10 obstruction with the proposed appointments in Prijedor until the end of

11 1992.

12 Q. Mr. Hannis asked you about a document there. Was it you, was it

13 a deputy that you had sign some documents on your behalf, and who was

14 authorised to grant approval. I'm talking about the annual report. And

15 you said that was a draft report, and you said you didn't know what final

16 shape that report took. You went on to state:

17 "I said I don't know. At the beginning of that question, in

18 relation to the very beginning of your question, I don't know if anything

19 was changed, if any changes were made to the document or not. This is a

20 draft document. I don't know if anyone entered any changes or not. That

21 would constitute mere speculation.

22 "The Trial Chamber had an opportunity yesterday to see for

23 themselves, based on a document that I produced, that we were able to

24 check the crime police archives. I wanted to prepare myself," and so on

25 and so forth.

Page 23542

1 And you go on to say:

2 "Regrettably I have to inform the Trial Chamber that the request

3 was not acted upon because the MUP was afraid that someone might be

4 accused of aiding and abetting war criminals."

5 First of all, tell me which document, which year were you

6 referring to when you said: "... yesterday I produced a document to the

7 Trial Chamber ..."?

8 A. I showed the Chamber a letter from 2005.

9 Q. Take it easy, please. This is the letter that you showed us. We

10 all exchanged copies of that document. Is this the letter that you sent

11 to the Ministry of the Interior back in 2005?

12 A. Yes, the one that I sent to the ministry.

13 Q. Seeking what? Briefly, please.

14 A. I asked to be allowed access to the crime police archive in

15 relation to documents between 1992 and 1995 and a number of other

16 documents that I specified in that letter.

17 Q. So back in 2005, did the Ministry of the Interior grant you

18 access to that archive?

19 A. No, it didn't. Of which I duly informed the investigators that I

20 spoke to in Belgrade, showing them the document.

21 Q. Which investigators? Whose investigators?

22 A. The Tribunal's OTP investigators.

23 Q. Thank you. Sir, page 23264, you commented on a document, 1D661,

24 that document, at tab 57.

25 If you feel unwell, sir, please let us know immediately, in

Page 23543

1 keeping with the Chamber's instructions and we can have a break.

2 Mr. Hannis asked you some questions about those conclusions. He

3 said:

4 "It seems to me that such conclusions or regulations passed by

5 the Crisis Staff were something that had to do with public law and order.

6 In keeping with Article 27 of the Law on Internal Affairs," as you had

7 occasion to see, "the public security station will be implementing those

8 regulations.

9 "Sir, tell me how this constituted interference with the work of

10 the public security station?"

11 And then you said:

12 "I have no problem with that. The Crisis Staff has a problem

13 with that. There are issues that are regulated under the Law on

14 Public Law and Order and the Law on Criminal Procedure, and those are not

15 under the jurisdiction of the Crisis Staff. That body, the Crisis Staff,

16 has no authority to adopt decisions regarding elements that are already

17 regulated under the law."

18 And then you went on to speak about which law specifically and

19 issues like that. You were asked to provide, if you could, the exact

20 reference as to the exact regulations.

21 Do you remember that, sir?

22 A. Yes, I do.

23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for --

24 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we see document P181, please.

25 That is tab 12.

Page 23544

1 Q. The document is the constitution of the Serbian Republic of

2 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and you have it in front of you.

3 The Ministry of the Interior, is it an administrative body at the

4 level of the republic?

5 A. Yes. It's a centralised body at the level of the republic.

6 Q. Under the Law on Public Administration, do the organs of the

7 republic have the right and the duty to establish their territorial

8 branch offices to exercise their powers?

9 A. Yes, they do. They organised their territorial units at the

10 municipal or at the regional level.

11 Q. Sir, to which Assembly does the Ministry of the Interior, as a

12 whole, report?

13 A. To the Assembly of the RS.

14 Q. Do the organisational units in the municipalities or regions

15 report to another Assembly, with regard to their work?

16 A. The SJBs report to the Ministry of the Interior for their work,

17 and they can also inform the municipal assembly about some relevant

18 events. But that's merely information.

19 Q. Let us take the example of the Vlasenica SJB and their work. Who

20 reports to the Assembly about its work, as well as the work of all other

21 stations; and which Assembly is that?

22 A. It's the Ministry of the Interior which reports to the Assembly

23 of the RS. It reports about the activities of any station.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] For reference, the articles of the

Page 23545

1 constitutions are 70 and 144 [as interpreted].

2 Q. Sir, let's go back to page 23296. You were shown document 1D644.

3 That was on 14 July. The tab number is 99.

4 MR. HANNIS: Could we have a repeat of the articles of the

5 constitution? One of them is listed as 144, which in --

6 MR. ZECEVIC: 104.

7 MR. HANNIS: Okay.

8 MR. ZECEVIC:

9 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, this is a report on inspection which was

10 shown to you by the Prosecution. He asked you - the Prosecutor - "we

11 have spoken with you about" --

12 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel please slow down and start again.

13 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Zecevic, the interpreters need you to slow down

14 and start again, please.

15 MR. ZECEVIC: Oh, I'm sorry.

16 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Hannis asked you:

17 "We have seen earlier in your testimony your role in the

18 commission that investigated certain activities of Mr. Kljajic and

19 Dragan Andan in Bijeljina, and the disciplinary proceedings against Andan

20 were launched pursuant to the conclusions of that commission. Was any

21 commission established to investigate the work of Mr. Koroman that you

22 have any knowledge about?"

23 And your answer is:

24 "I spent the month of August in Bijeljina, possibly September,

25 too. And then I briefly went to Pale and then returned to Bijeljina, and

Page 23546

1 I cannot say with certainty whether the CSB did anything at all."

2 It continues on page 23298. This is again Mr. Hannis's question:

3 "Mr. Koroman, to say the least, issued weapons. Let me remind

4 you those are the weapons that you spoke about that he gave to members of

5 the Yellow Wasps. I believe that the weapons are listed in the document

6 that we have, and they include automatic weapons and even hand-held

7 rocket-launcher, and nothing happened to him," meaning Mr. Koroman. "Do

8 you degree that this is disproportionate?"

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. No, that was Mr. Hannis's question.

11 And then, finally, page 23299:

12 "... if Mr. Koroman really issued weapons at the time ..."

13 And your reply:

14 "If Mr. Koroman really issued weapons at the time" -- this seems

15 to have been mistranslated so I'll read it in English.

16 [In English] "If Mr. Koroman did provide weapons at the time when

17 the public security department had information incriminating members of

18 Yellow Wasps, then that is certainly a more serious violation."

19 [Interpretation] Sir, we have seen that Mr. Dragan Andan was

20 sanctioned. Disciplinary proceedings were initiated against him. What

21 was his disciplinary offence; can you tell us?

22 A. The disciplinary offence of Mr. Andan was the use of a device

23 without respecting the procedure that was in place in the ministry. It

24 was not in line with the instruction on the conduct of crime enforcement

25 workers.

Page 23547

1 Q. Sir, was there a criminal offence of unauthorised possession or

2 sale of weapons in the Criminal Code?

3 A. Yes. Unauthorised trade in weapons.

4 Q. Was there a serious punishment envisaged [Realtime transcript

5 read in error "alleged"] by the then legislation for that offence?

6 A. Yes.

7 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] I see that the transcript reads

8 "alleged"; whereas, I said "envisaged," or "stipulated."

9 Q. Tell me, if a -- if it were to be established for a MUP member

10 that he or she gave weapons, what's more automatic weapons, to some

11 persons without authorisation, would that be -- would that person be

12 liable to both disciplinary proceedings and criminal proceedings?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Let us go to the last page of this document, page 6. And it's

15 item 2 of the conclusions of the inspector who drafted the report in

16 March 1992 [as interpreted].

17 It says:

18 "Once taken from the proposed Pale SJB employees, the statements

19 will have to be analysed for possible elements of crime, the crime

20 administration and the Sarajevo CSB senior officers informed accordingly,

21 and once criminal responsibility has been assessed, criminal reports

22 submitted to the competent prosecutor's office."

23 Do you agree with this conclusion or proposal of this inspector?

24 A. This proposal is fair. Once the facts have been established,

25 they're forwarded to the higher authority for -- to act upon and check

Page 23548

1 the allegations.

2 Q. Was Mr. Koroman removed along with the senior officers of the

3 Pale SJB?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. In what year was the -- were the proceedings for their removal

6 initiated?

7 A. 1992.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 MR. HANNIS: Can we have some clarification on what "removal"

10 means? Removal from the position, or removal from the Ministry of the

11 Interior? Because his previous evidence indicates that Mr. Koroman was

12 still working for the Ministry of the Interior.

13 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, my question was precisely, was Mr. Koroman

14 removed along with the senior officers of the Pale SJB. Removed from the

15 Pale SJB. That's ... I wasn't suggesting that he was removed from the

16 MUP.

17 MR. HANNIS: All right.

18 MR. ZECEVIC:

19 Q. [Interpretation] Do you know if the Sarajevo CSB investigated

20 against the senior officers of the Pale SJB, including Mr. Koroman, and

21 if they filed a criminal complaint against anyone?

22 A. I don't remember if a criminal complaint was submitted, but the

23 centre was duty-bound to conduct checks with regard to the allegations in

24 this report.

25 Q. Thank you. We'll move onto another matter.

Page 23549

1 Tell me, sir, do you know anything about the relation between

2 Mr. Kovac and Mr. Trbojevic?

3 A. If memory serves, they were not very close, nor were they on

4 friendly terms.

5 MR. HANNIS: May I inquire which portion of my cross-examination

6 this arises from? Can I have a page reference?

7 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] 23305. It's in connection with the

8 document I'm about to show the witness. It's P192.

9 The question was about that document.

10 MR. HANNIS: Well, there's nothing in that document about a

11 conflict with Mr. Trbojevic and Mr. Kovac.

12 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] I wasn't talking about a conflict.

13 I merely asked what their relationship was like, if the witness knew

14 anything about that. You'll realise later why I asked that question once

15 we comment on the following document.

16 May the witness please be shown P192, which is OTP tab 86.

17 [Defence counsel confer]

18 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, just if I can have the instruction at

19 what time should we break?

20 JUDGE HALL: Well, subject to the witness's disposition, we will

21 see if we could press straight through until the end because we expect

22 that that would permit to you finish.

23 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, I will try, do my best, Your Honours.

24 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

25 MR. ZECEVIC:

Page 23550

1 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, are you ready to press on for another

2 45 minutes?

3 A. Yes. Yes, I am.

4 Q. Thank you very much. Sir, you were shown this document. You

5 remember discussing it with Mr. Hannis; right?

6 A. Yes, I do.

7 Q. Page 2, we see Mr. Tomo Kovac's signature. He was assistant

8 minister for police work and tasks. You see that, don't you?

9 A. Yes, I do.

10 Q. Can you please tell me how documents of the police duties and

11 tasks administration were marked?

12 A. As far as I remember, they used number 3, to mark those

13 documents.

14 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please go back to page 1 of

15 this document? Thank you.

16 Q. This was sent to the president of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia

17 and Herzegovina and the prime minister of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia

18 and Herzegovina. The date is the 8th of August, 1992. It's marked as

19 10-239/92.

20 The number 10 there stands for what administration?

21 A. The analytics administration.

22 Q. Sir, as Mr. Hannis previously told you, the first paragraph of

23 this document shows Mr. Kovac as saying "I propose," and then, at the

24 very end, "I hereby present the problem in this way."

25 Sir, is it usual for positions of the ministry itself to be

Page 23551

1 presented in the first-person singular?

2 A. No. That is by no means common. When state bodies exchange

3 letters, unless obviously we are talking about an order, and the

4 ministers would have the authority to order things like that.

5 Q. This letter was sent to the president of the Serbian Republic of

6 Bosnia and Herzegovina and the prime minister.

7 Sir, there is no reference at all in this letter to a ministry

8 position; rather, as I said, it was written in the first-person singular.

9 Do you remember if the ministry, at one of its collegium meetings, ever

10 considered the issue of classifying arrested persons?

11 A. Not as far as I know.

12 Q. This document is dated the 8th of August; right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] May the witness please be shown

16 P427.13. P427, paragraph 13.

17 Q. Sir, these are minutes of the 46th Meeting of the Government of

18 the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, held on the

19 9th of August, 1992.

20 It reads -- the 9th of August, that is the date of this document.

21 It reads:

22 "The session was chaired by Milan Trbojevic, deputy prime

23 minister, and goes on to state that the session was also attended by so

24 on and so forth. Tomislav Kovac, on behalf of Mico Stanisic, was

25 standing in for Mico Stanisic. And it says: "The following were absent

Page 23552

1 and excused: Branko Djeric," and other ministers there. Do you see

2 that?

3 A. Yes. That's standard procedure as far as minutes such as this

4 document were concerned, relating to government meetings.

5 Q. At page 3, item paragraph 12, which is the first paragraph there.

6 And the first sentence reads --

7 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] That would be page 4 in English.

8 Q. These are items on the government meetings agenda.

9 Can you please confirm what paragraph 12 says, one of the items

10 on the agenda of that meeting?

11 A. "Agreement including visits to the camps in the Serbian Republic

12 of BiH."

13 Q. And then just in order to move onto paragraph 12, the English

14 there is correct. And this is page 5 of the Serbian. What is the

15 government's conclusion there?

16 You see, it says:

17 "The government set up two commissions comprising representatives

18 of the Ministry of the Interior and the justice ministry and the

19 administration. The objective of the commissions is to gain insight

20 through the relevant state bodies into the status of people in

21 concentration centres and other collection facilities. And also to speed

22 up the procedure of classifying these persons, as well as to establish

23 their responsibility and any punishment to be imposed."

24 Sir, who established these commissions?

25 A. Based on what it says here, the government established

Page 23553

1 two commissions.

2 Q. And what was the task that was given to these two commissions?

3 A. It was given by the government.

4 Q. Thank you. Do you remember if, at any collegium meetings back in

5 1992, you reviewed any reports compiled by any commissions at all,

6 specifically this one?

7 A. I'm not aware of that, and I would have been present. So I'm

8 certain that no such thing occurred.

9 Q. At page 23325 you were previously shown a document, specifically

10 an order by the minister to disband the special units that had been

11 established during 1992. Mr. Hannis says, I'll read in English:

12 [In English] "And the order to disband special units was not

13 issued because there were some reports about crimes committed by those

14 units or individuals from those units. That was the only -- that was not

15 the only reason."

16 [Interpretation] That's actually part of your answer, sir.

17 MR. HANNIS: Can have I the page reference again. I'm not

18 finding it on page 23235.

19 MR. ZECEVIC: 23325.

20 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Hannis goes onto say:

21 "I agree with you that that was perhaps not the only reason. If

22 you agree with me that that was one of the reasons."

23 And then the discussion goes on.

24 Finally, Mr. Hannis's question, a question about -- he was

25 talking about an order by the president of the Presidency and an Assembly

Page 23554

1 decision, so he showed you P199. Please have a look, sir. That's

2 tab 115. An Assembly meeting held between the 24th and 26th of July,

3 1992.

4 I suppose you don't have a copy of that. That's an OTP document.

5 You'll have to follow the document on your screen, sir.

6 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have page 13, which

7 is page 14 in e-court, in the Serbian. The last paragraph, words uttered

8 by Mr. Karadzic, his own contribution at that meeting.

9 Mr. Karadzic says:

10 "One of the fundamental problems" -- that is the last paragraph.

11 I'll try and locate the right reference for the English.

12 Your Honours, I have not prepared the relevant references for the

13 English, and it's a lengthy document. I will be coming back to that

14 later, probably tomorrow, at the start of our day tomorrow. I may have

15 10 or 15 minutes left for tomorrow, first thing in the morning. And now

16 I'll use something else instead, but I will have a printout of this for

17 you so that you can follow, because the print there is very small.

18 Q. Page 23329 of the LiveNote, you spoke to Mr. Hannis about

19 Bosanski Samac and the replacement of Stevan Todorovic. Do you remember

20 that, sir?

21 A. Yes, I do.

22 Q. The question was:

23 "Who had the authority to replace the chief of the public

24 security station, like, for example, Mr. Todorovic? Would that have been

25 the head of the CSB or the minister, or both of them?"

Page 23555

1 And then you say at page 23302:

2 "I think I said that the minister transferred some of his powers

3 to the CSB heads, in relation to the proposed appointments for leading

4 positions in the public security stations, meaning the chiefs and other

5 leading men in the stations."

6 And then the key question, Mr. Hannis makes the following

7 suggestion:

8 "In the Law on Internal Affairs there was no provision preventing

9 Mr. Bjelosevic from removing Mr. Todorovic; right? It was a practical

10 problem, a political problem. Political support or public support that

11 existed in Samac but there were no legal obstacles to that."

12 And then you say:

13 "As an economist, I will try to answer that question for you."

14 You remember that, sir?

15 A. Yes, I do.

16 Q. Sir, what about men in leading positions, such as the head of the

17 CSB? Would these persons have any authority over members of the

18 Ministry of the Interior?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What about CSB heads? Would they have any authority, in terms of

21 working relations, in terms of disciplining people, over persons working

22 in other state bodies?

23 A. Only if a criminal offence is committed, but no disciplinary

24 action.

25 Q. Mr. Macar, do you know if Stevan Todorovic ever - when I say

Page 23556

1 "ever," I mean 1992 - did Mr. Stevan Todorovic at any point in time

2 throughout 1992 sign a contract to officially work for the Ministry of

3 the Interior?

4 A. No. And I think one of the reports that followed one of our

5 visits actually reflects that. He was hired by the Crisis Staff and not

6 by the ministry.

7 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] 1D518, please. That's our next

8 document. A letter by the centre head, Andrija Bjelosevic.

9 Q. You see that it contains a remark and the document itself is

10 dated 25 November 1992. It's addressed to the minister and says:

11 "We wish to mention that Chief Todorovic never received a

12 decision on assignment to these duties, and it was for this reason that

13 no disciplinary proceedings could be initiated against him."

14 Is this in keeping with the information you had from the reports

15 submitted to the MUP?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Then, in this case, if somebody acted as being in a certain

18 position but actually wasn't -- didn't have employment with the MUP at

19 all, did the chief -- did the chief of CSB --

20 MR. HANNIS: I'm objecting because this is a leading question.

21 It needs to be phrased in a different way.

22 MR. ZECEVIC:

23 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, is a CSB chief authorised, or has he any

24 authority over persons not employed with the MUP?

25 A. No. He couldn't take any action against them. He could only try

Page 23557

1 to create the pre-conditions for his replacement. And when I say

2 "pre-conditions," I'm referring to the local circles that appointed him

3 so that there should be no problem with appointing somebody else.

4 I don't know if I was clear enough.

5 Q. You have already spoken about that. It's recorded.

6 Sir, on page 23403, on the 15th of July, the Yellow Wasps

7 operation was discussed, and Mr. Hannis put this to you:

8 "Isn't it a fact that the leadership of the RS was much more

9 interested in processing crimes such as thefts of Golf cars than in

10 processing any one Serb for crimes against non-Muslims?"

11 And then you replied:

12 "If it's referring to the Yellow Wasps, I don't know what the

13 grounds for your conclusions are."

14 And then, later, Mr. Hannis says:

15 "It turns out that, in spite of your initial information, the

16 subsequent information received from the military prosecutor's office" --

17 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

18 [Trial Chamber confers]

19 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Zecevic, our impression is that the witness is

20 experiencing some discomfort. We are wondering whether we should,

21 inasmuch as we have to return tomorrow in any event, whether we should

22 take the adjournment now.

23 MR. ZECEVIC: By all means, Your Honours. It is up to the

24 witness. I informed him that at any time he can --

25 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Macar.

Page 23558

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If we continue tomorrow anyway,

2 then, it's all right. And we can take the adjournment.

3 JUDGE HALL: So -- so if this is a convenient point, we can take

4 the break now, Mr. Zecevic. Or did you want to finish the question you

5 were --

6 MR. ZECEVIC: Perhaps if I can just finish this question.

7 JUDGE HALL: Yes.

8 MR. ZECEVIC:

9 Q. [Interpretation] On page 23408, let us just finish this.

10 "As the information received from the military prosecutor's

11 office, as opposed to your initial information, pointed to the fact that

12 Vuckovic and other Yellow Wasps were not military persons. And that's

13 why they ought to be prosecuted before civilian courts. Were you aware

14 of that?"

15 And then you say:

16 "This document is dated 14 September. It was not sent to the

17 MUP, and I'm not aware of this."

18 Sir, do you know if a criminal complaint for war crimes

19 eventually was submitted to a court in Serbia against these persons,

20 after all?

21 A. Yes, I know.

22 Q. Do you know which year that -- that was?

23 A. In late 1992 or 1993, I don't recall. But I do have information

24 that it was submitted to the relevant bodies in Serbia.

25 Q. How was the jurisdiction of the court in Serbia established in

Page 23559

1 the case against these persons?

2 A. It may have been based on their citizenship.

3 Q. Document 1D86. I just want to show it to you.

4 This is a criminal complaint. You can see the date. Which year

5 is it?

6 A. 1993.

7 Q. It's a criminal report against Dusan Vuckovic, Vojin Vuckovic and

8 other members of the Yellow Wasps for war crimes, as we can read on

9 page 1; correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] For the Trial Chamber, the court

12 decision in this case is --

13 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel please repeat the document

14 reference.

15 JUDGE HALL: Sorry, the interpreters need you to repeat the

16 reference to the document.

17 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. P1979. It's the

18 decision of this Court in the case against Vojin and Dusan Vuckovic who

19 were convicted of war crimes.

20 Your Honour, I believe this is a convenient moment for an

21 adjournment. I may have an additional 15 or 20 minutes tomorrow. I'm

22 sorry, I really wasn't able to finish today.

23 I apologise to Mr. Macar.

24 JUDGE HALL: So we reconvene tomorrow morning in this courtroom

25 at 9.00.

Page 23560

1 [The witness stands down]

2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.26 p.m.,

3 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 20th day of

4 July, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.