111109ED

Page 25451

1 Wednesday, 9 November 2011

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to

6 everyone in and around the courtroom.

7 This is case IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and

8 Stojan Zupljanin.

9 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10 Good morning to everyone. May we have the appearances, please.

11 MS. KORNER: Good morning, Your Honours. Joanna Korner, assisted

12 by Case Manager Sebastiaan van Hooydonk. Still having difficulties.

13 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. For

14 Mr. Mico Stanisic, Slobodan Cvijetic and Ms. Deirdre Montgomery.

15 MR. KRGOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Dragan Krgovic,

16 Aleksandar Aleksic, and Miroslav Cuskic appearing for Zupljanin Defence.

17 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.

18 Before we begin, and I see Ms. Korner is on her feet, the

19 Trial Chamber is seized of an oral application raised yesterday by the

20 Prosecution seeking an order that proofing notes be provided for the

21 remaining Zupljanin Defence witnesses not less than 72 hours prior to the

22 anticipated start of testimony of each witness. The Chamber has

23 previously ruled on this matter on the 18th of October, during the last

24 week of sitting, so the application is, in essence, an application for

25 review of the prior decision.

Page 25452

1 The Chamber confirms at the outset that it is not inclined to

2 review its previous decision. However, it shares the concerns raised by

3 the Prosecution about the efficacy of the current procedure. Given the

4 scheduled two-week break in the sittings this month, and noting that

5 there remains only a maximum of six witnesses still to be called by the

6 Zupljanin Defence, the Trial Chamber issues the following directions in

7 the interests of a fair and expeditious trial:

8 1, a full and detailed proofing note for the next witness is to

9 be provided to the Prosecution and the Chamber by midday on Sunday, the

10 13th of November. The usual method of communication by e-mail will

11 suffice; 2, a full and detailed proofing note for Witness SZ-002 [sic] is

12 to be provided by 9.30 on the morning of Wednesday, the 16 of November;

13 and, 3, full and detailed proofing notes for the remaining four witnesses

14 scheduled to testify in December are to be provided before the witnesses

15 arrive in The Hague to testify.

16 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

17 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, I think that should be "7" rather than

18 "2."

19 JUDGE HALL: Thank you. So the witness where I would have said

20 "002," to be provided by 9.30 on Wednesday, should be "007." Thank you.

21 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much, Your Honours.

22 Your Honours, on that note, I've had a discussion this morning,

23 as we -- as you asked us yesterday about the witness schedule, as it

24 were. Although I have a number of documents to ask this witness about,

25 in fact his evidence is -- is quite small-compassed. So I would hope to

Page 25453

1 finish with the extended sitting on Monday, if I start tomorrow.

2 The witness thereafter, SZ-008, at the moment it's quite

3 difficult because we only have the 65 ter summary; however, the bulk of

4 his evidence that we know about, because we're in possession of a

5 statement he made to the authorities in 1992, would appear to deal with

6 the killing of Colonel Stevilovic. And I made it clear to Mr. Krgovic

7 this morning that although there is some documentary evidence which

8 perhaps suggests that Colonel Stevilovic was killed by his own side, we

9 don't resile from the fact that the bulk of the evidence is to the effect

10 that he was killed in an ambush which was set by the Muslims, the Muslim

11 resistance in Kotor Varos.

12 So, effectively, we're not going to dispute any of that evidence.

13 So, at the moment we're not at all clear what else that witness will talk

14 about. Expect a rather vague part in the 65 ter summary which talks

15 about Muslim and Croat forces in Kotor Varos, which, again, is not really

16 a subject of dispute.

17 So what I'm actually saying is, I don't know how long he's going

18 to be in-chief, I doubt that he's going to be as long as listed, and he's

19 not likely to be very long in cross-examination. So the following

20 witness, SZ-007, should also complete his testimony next week. Which

21 leaves us with -- he is reasonably short, as far as we can tell, as well.

22 In fact, I think he's estimated by the Defence to last three hours in

23 chief; probably not much longer in cross.

24 Again, so, Your Honours, that will leave for the final period

25 before the Christmas break just three witnesses, two of whom, I think,

Page 25454

1 are ones that were 92 bis originally but were turned into 92 ter, and one

2 of whom has requested the videolink.

3 So there's very little doubt, we would anticipate, subject to

4 everything being equal, nobody going ill and things not changes, that we

5 will complete the Zupljanin Defence certainly by the Christmas break.

6 JUDGE HALL: Thank you. So the -- I confess that the Chamber did

7 have some reservations about counsel's arithmetic, but since your

8 optimism persists, we are happy to hear that. Thank you.

9 MS. KORNER: I think it's looking at the issues that the

10 remaining witnesses are going to -- there's only one remaining witness,

11 we anticipate, who may be a little longer.

12 Your Honours, can I mention, briefly, two other matters, one of

13 which I've been asked to mention by the Court Officer. We put in a

14 revised translation, as a result of something Mr. Zecevic raised during

15 his cross-examination, of P1388. That's now been back again. It has the

16 number, the sixty -- sorry, the ERN number now, B008-0400, and we'd ask

17 that that replace the original translation.

18 JUDGE HALL: So ordered.

19 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

20 And the final matter is, I sent Mr. Krgovic an e-mail about the

21 parts of the witness's evidence which I -- in my opinion, could be made

22 open to the public yesterday when he was talking about matters that we

23 were in private session, and Mr. Krgovic just wishes to consider that

24 before we come to an agreement.

25 And I've been given the information about the medical condition

Page 25459

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Page 25460

11 Page 25460 redacted.

Page 25461

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Krgovic, just one moment, please.

4 Mr. Witness, please remind me: On the 10th of August, were you

5 still a member of the special detachment?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. That detachment basically was

7 no longer under our jurisdiction as of mid-July. I only went there to

8 pay out the salaries.

9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.

10 And bullet point 5:

11 "All members of the special detachment will hand in their

12 official identification documents and police equipment on the day of

13 transfer."

14 Could you please explain to me what that means? For those men, I

15 mean.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It means that the official IDs and

17 the police equipment, and some people had some, must be returned to the

18 person in charge of materiel and technical equipment.

19 JUDGE DELVOIE: And --

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Apart from weapons, some people had

21 the berets that belonged to the police and had to be returned, and there

22 may have been a -- some quantity of things such as handcuffs and the

23 like.

24 JUDGE DELVOIE: You say that some people had some, I mean -- and

25 you meant official identification documents and police equipment. Does

Page 25462

1 that mean that before this moment that they had to hand over all this,

2 they were members of the police and that as of that moment they were not

3 anymore?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When Stevilovic was killed, some

5 problems arose. And when they're taken off the war-time assignment, that

6 is, in this case, the 31st of August, when the last salary was paid out,

7 they weren't. And they had to return what they were issued. It's the

8 same in all similar services. When you're issued something officially,

9 you have to return it.

10 JUDGE DELVOIE: I'm sorry, but your answer isn't really clear to

11 me.

12 People who had official identification documents and police

13 equipment, does that mean that they were police officers? Official

14 identification documents means identification document as police

15 officers; is that right?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is right. But if you look at

17 those IDs, they weren't really official IDs. They were just some sort of

18 certificates with the same text that could be found on real, official,

19 police IDs. And that was one of the problems. They were issued, like,

20 identification cards with a photograph on one side and the copied text

21 about the authority of police officers on the other side. They were much

22 like military IDs. So it was difficult to tell. Whereas, regular police

23 members had blue IDs which were widely known.

24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Are you telling me now that those people were not

25 police officers?

Page 25463

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They basically were police officers

2 because they were issued IDs by the centre. But, in essence, they were a

3 military unit.

4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Sorry, Mr. Witness, but that's not my question.

5 I just want to know what happens here to people that were in the police

6 before the 10th of August and that had to hand in their official

7 documents and police equipments on the day of the transfer.

8 And my question is: Those people who were police officers until

9 that day, after that day they were not police officers anymore. And I

10 could put my question in another way: If, after a certain --

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, no. It isn't necessary. I

12 understand what this is about.

13 The unit had a police platoon. The real police officers returned

14 to the police; whereas, the military platoons remained with the military

15 police or in reconnaissance units where they were before.

16 And I must say that the IDs were no longer valid because there

17 were no rules and regulations saying that a police ID should look like

18 that. It was more of a personal ID. And that's why some problems arose,

19 because uneducated people from military units thought that what these IDs

20 were saying was to be taken literally, and they didn't read the textual

21 part right.

22 JUDGE DELVOIE: I must say, I'm totally confused.

23 MR. KRGOVIC: I try to clarify it.

24 JUDGE DELVOIE: You think you could?

25 MR. KRGOVIC: I hope.

Page 25464

1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Go ahead.

2 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Sir, please assist us so we can clarify.

4 When you spoke about the composition of the detachment, you spoke

5 about persons who had come from the military and others who had come from

6 the police. The people who were members of the detachment on 10 August,

7 were they still members of the detachment from that moment on, or what

8 happened to them?

9 What happened on the 10th of August?

10 A. On the 10th of August all detachment members who had come from

11 military units were taken off the war-time assignment. Nobody remained,

12 and we only had regular police officers on our force, police officers who

13 had been attached from the CSB.

14 After that, a decision was taken to accept only educated men.

15 Nobody could come to the CSB anymore if they hadn't finished a police

16 course or a police school. In other words, educated, trained people.

17 Q. These soldiers who had come to the detachment, did they have

18 other IDs apart from these official IDs?

19 A. Yes, they had their military IDs. Those were mostly military

20 police IDs or IDs of reconnaissance units or their military booklet from

21 their own unit.

22 Q. Tell us now what their status was in the detachment. Were they

23 real police officers, these people who had come from the military; and

24 what did this ID mean? Does the possession of such an ID make them real

25 police members, or was it given to them for some other reason?

Page 25465

1 A. It was given to them so that they could prove their identity when

2 entering the Rakovacke Bare facility, to prevent anybody who wasn't a

3 unit member from entering. That was a sort of improvisation. They

4 didn't have police skills. I believe that's very clear, because a man

5 who was trained to be a soldier, a scout, whatever, certainly hasn't

6 undergone the training a police officer has.

7 Q. Has there been misuse of these IDs?

8 A. Yes. And we took measures against that. The problem was that

9 some persons from military structures understood the narrative on the

10 back side of the ID literally and interpreted that to mean that they had

11 the same authority as real police officers.

12 Q. To who does item 5 in this document apply, that the members must

13 return their IDs and police equipment?

14 A. It applied to members of military units. That is, these three

15 platoons.

16 Q. Do you know if these IDs and equipment were, indeed, returned?

17 A. As far as I know, most IDs were. But some people said that they

18 had lost them. They probably wanted to keep them for later, for

19 whichever reason. But most of them were returned.

20 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I don't know if I've been able

21 to --

22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you, Mr. Krgovic.

23 Let me just summarize to make sure that I understood it right.

24 The special police unit is established at a certain point in

25 time, and the members of it come from two -- two different sources,

Page 25466

1 policemen and military personnel. Organisation into platoons, three

2 platoons consist of military men, and one platoon of policemen. But the

3 difference doesn't mean that they are not, as from then, members of this

4 police detachment and, therefore, policemen, and they're issued with

5 identification papers, makeshift or not, but they're policemen from -- as

6 from then.

7 On the 10th of August, the members of the military platoon

8 returned to the -- sorry. The members of the police platoon returned to

9 their respective police stations. The members of the military, what you

10 call the military platoons, but they are still police platoons, were

11 transferred to the army again, to the 1st Krajina Corps, which means that

12 as from the 10th of August there is no special police detachment anymore.

13 Is that a fair summary?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that was more or less the way

15 it was.

16 They returned what they were issued on the 10th; but, in reality,

17 they ceased to operate even before the 10th. They were no more

18 communications with the centre. But the essence is that the unit,

19 although technically it was still a unit of the centre, all the time it

20 was resubordinated to military units in the field, because, as you know,

21 there were combat activities.

22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. And then last question in this regard: As

23 from the 10th of August, there was no special police detachment

24 resubordinated to the military anymore?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From that moment on, it was

Page 25467

1 directly under military command. That was -- it was a unit of the

2 military, so there was no need for resubordination.

3 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. It was a unit of the military and no

4 special police unit anymore; right?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was a military unit, and

6 basically all the time it reported to the military, even while it was

7 technically a police unit. We only provided the salaries. And we also

8 transferred a number of police officers to them.

9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.

10 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. I'll come back to this question later.

12 Now I want to show you the document that we spoke about

13 yesterday, P1033, at tab 19 -- or, no, my mistake. It's P1092. Tab 19

14 in your binder.

15 We see that this is a payroll for August. Were they paid out the

16 salary for the whole month?

17 A. Yes, they were.

18 Q. You have already said that it was done in Kotor Varos.

19 A. Yes. It was at the SJB where these salaries were paid out.

20 Q. Was it on the 10th of August, on the occasion of the hand-over?

21 A. I think so. I don't know if it's indicated anywhere. We didn't

22 put the date on the document, but I think it was then.

23 Q. A short while ago, answering Judge Delvoie's question, you spoke

24 about - and I think you also mentioned it during the interview - that the

25 unit was basically disbanded in mid-July.

Page 25468

1 Why did you say that? Did anything happen before the -- the --

2 this event?

3 A. These events were preceded by Stevilovic's death. There were

4 some incidents after that too. I know that some military police members

5 and some members of this unit were suspected as being responsible for

6 Stevilovic's death, and they were taken -- they were brought in because

7 of that.

8 Those conspiracy theories were very popular. There was this

9 rumour that the centre chief had betrayed Stevilovic and that he was

10 responsible for the man's death, and that's why there was also problems

11 with communications with the centre and there was a lack of discipline.

12 So they were in a vacuum, as it were. These things had to be taken care

13 of in the best possible way.

14 Q. Did anything happen to Captain Lukic?

15 A. Captain Lukic had some medical problems after an accident, so he

16 couldn't act, and the command was unable to cope with these tasks,

17 especially since there was no one from the military yet to replace the

18 intelligence officer. Things were unclear, and that's why there weren't

19 activities at the time. And there was also bitterness because of the

20 death of our people. There were also rumours about betrayal. There were

21 various problems.

22 Q. What was the situation like with the deputy commander of the

23 special unit? Did anything happen to him?

24 A. He was injured in the eye - I think it was a ricochet - so that

25 he couldn't discharge his duties either.

Page 25492

1 Q. At the time when you were going to Kotor Varos, do you know where

2 members of the detachment were housed?

3 A. In several different locations, I believe. One of them was a

4 hotel; another was a house near the bridge, I believe; and some were in

5 the school. Depends on how close these places were to the particular

6 positions. I believe some were also in the SUP building, because there

7 were -- there were beds there.

8 It was all improvised. It was not a typical barracks with all

9 the amenities.

10 Q. Could you tell me, did there come a time when a conflict broke

11 out around Kotor Varos? And what did you know about the military

12 situation? What kind of forces were there on the other side?

13 A. What we knew was that the other side had, at the very outset,

14 around 200 men armed with automatic weapons, but it turned out later

15 there were more, because Croats and Muslims could very easily buy weapons

16 from the military unit in Celinac through some intermediaries. I know

17 one of those was nicknamed Britse [phoen]. Prices ranged from one to

18 2.000 Deutschemark. There were several intermediaries, and each one

19 skimmed 200 Deutschemark.

20 Q. That first day you said there were some talks about disarmament.

21 How many and what units did you see on that day, and later, in

22 Kotor Varos?

23 A. That day in Kotor Varos there were members of the

24 Territorial Defence. There were men from the unit of Captain Dubocanin.

25 There were police officers, reserve policemen, and members of the special

Page 25493

1 detachment. And at the main check-point it was the regular army. And

2 that's what I saw every time I went there.

3 Q. In those early days did the composition of the special detachment

4 change? Was there any change in the platoons? Were there two platoons

5 all the time? Or did something change?

6 A. Some changes did occur. In one period it was standard practice

7 to rotate men. At one point there were three platoons; at other times

8 there were two platoons. And, of course, the men inside them were

9 rotated.

10 Q. You mentioned Captain Dubocanin's unit. You spoke about that in

11 your 2002 interview. Can you describe first how many men that unit had

12 and how they were dressed?

13 A. It was a unit of about 20 or so men, maybe even 30. They had

14 top-notch equipment and uniforms thanks to Dubocanin's connections with

15 Colonel Stevilovic and some other people. They had very good equipment

16 indeed. And I know that in addition to high-quality weapons they had

17 head-gear and berets, and they were equipped similarly to the special

18 unit. I believe the equipment might have even come from the same source.

19 Q. To which formation did they belong? To whom were they

20 subordinated?

21 A. They had some sort of connection with Colonel Stevilovic, and

22 they were on good terms with Colonel Peulic as well.

23 As far as I could see, they had a very good relationship with the

24 local politicians too.

25 Q. Do you know where Captain Dubocanin hailed from?

Page 25494

1 A. His native town is Kotor Varos.

2 Q. This unit of Captain Dubocanin, did it have any links with the

3 special detachment?

4 A. No. It was a separate unit. They had their own separate

5 organisation and their own accommodation. Nobody, not a single one of

6 them, ever came to Rakovacke Bare, to our base. They had direct links to

7 someone in the army.

8 Q. You mentioned Captain Dubocanin. Did you have ranks in the

9 police force at the time?

10 A. No. We had job titles.

11 Q. Did Captain Dubocanin wear a captain's rank insignia?

12 A. He had the insignia of captain and also some specialised

13 insignia.

14 The army wore some brass insignia that maybe represent the arm of

15 the service, I'm not sure, but he did wear something shiny of that kind,

16 although I can't remember exactly now.

17 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Krgovic, I don't know if you're leaving this,

18 but I'm not sure I understand the exchange at lines 19 and following,

19 whether there were ranks, and the response was that you had job titles.

20 The query that I have of the witness is whether, apart from

21 style, this matter, whether the -- your answer to the question means that

22 the difference between rank -- you're saying that there were no ranks but

23 there were job titles means that there was not the hierarchy where

24 somebody could give instructions or directions to somebody in a lower

25 rank.

Page 25495

1 Do you understand my question?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the question was about the

3 state security and the police in general. The titles were inspectors,

4 junior inspector, senior inspector, chief of sector, chief of

5 administration. Whereas, in the army, it's second lieutenant,

6 lieutenant, captain, major. I don't know. It's a military organisation

7 with completely different names of titles.

8 JUDGE HALL: Thank you. My only query was, having made the

9 distinction, whether you're saying in the police service as contrasted

10 with the army, there wasn't -- it wasn't a situation where someone could

11 give directions to someone with, to use your phrase, a different job

12 title.

13 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Could I now show you a document while we're on this topic. It's

15 2D0056. Zupljanin Defence binder tab 25.

16 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we just make this larger.

17 Q. The right-hand column, we see the name of Slobodan Dubocanin, and

18 this is his personnel file. Place of birth: Kotor Varos.

19 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness now be shown

20 page 2.

21 MS. KORNER: I don't want to stop it, but are we -- is it

22 suggested the witness saw this at the time, or has he just seen it now,

23 in which case all he can say is, I've seen it now and it seems to show

24 he's a member of the military. Which I agree is what the ID card seems

25 to show.

Page 25496

1 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I only wanted to show --

2 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Speakers are overlapping.

3 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] [Overlapping speakers] ... same

4 person based on the personal details such as place of birth and the rest.

5 We can see the rank, the place of birth. You see it says on page 2:

6 captain, his promotions, place of service in various units in 1992.

7 Q. Could you tell if it's the same person as the one you've referred

8 to as Captain Dubocanin?

9 A. This is Captain Dubocanin. And another confirmation of that is

10 this line where it says: "Unfit for military service."

11 He got ill. He had head surgery. And he was relieved of army

12 duty after that. And in Kotor Varos there was no one else by that name.

13 Q. Thank you, sir. That's all I wanted to hear from you about this

14 document.

15 Apart from Captain Dubocanin's unit, you also mentioned TO units.

16 Were there -- was there a TO unit that stood out especially?

17 A. They were called Burcani [phoen]; they were especially active.

18 It was a group that behaved rather aggressively, and I think that due to

19 that aggressive conduct they would try to go through the wall. Most of

20 them got killed in the war. They were the most aggressive group in the

21 area.

22 Q. Talking about Captain Dubocanin's unit, their level of equipment

23 and training, what kind of a unit were they if we were to apply these

24 criteria?

25 A. They had specialists in certain areas. And I know that for a

Page 25497

1 while they were -- they did reconnaissance in Slavonia, in the theatre of

2 war there, and they gathered some experience there. They were considered

3 as an elite unit, and they obeyed their commander, Captain Dubocanin.

4 Q. On the day when you were in Kotor Varos, or on those days, did

5 you see these people or Captain Dubocanin himself?

6 A. Yes. They were billeted at the SUP building, and I believe they

7 turned two rooms into dormitories.

8 Q. Except at the SUP building did you see any military members or

9 any officers on the days when you went to Kotor Varos?

10 A. I saw TO members, and sometimes there were also some officers

11 there. I don't know who exactly. Sometimes Stevilovic would come. But

12 mostly it was Dubocanin who related his messages, because he was in

13 direct communication with him.

14 Q. You said a short while ago that you had some talks at the SJB.

15 Please tell us briefly what you asked about, what kind of registers you

16 kept, and what the procedure was.

17 A. On the first day, I talked to a number of persons about the

18 possession of weapons, also about the way they obtained their weapons. I

19 also asked questions about their injuries because some of them were

20 visibly injured. Force may have been used against them while they were

21 being brought in.

22 I had some folders with my notes about their replies concerning

23 the -- the issue of weapons, as well as my remarks about their injuries.

24 Zdravko Pejic came with a group of inspectors from state security

25 who continued the interviews about the possession of weapons, and I don't

Page 25498

1 know what happened from then on, but they were fair while I was talking

2 to them, and most people gave me information without being pressurised,

3 information about the origin of their weapons.

4 It is also interesting that most of these people initially were

5 brought in, although no weapons had been found in their possession. Some

6 people said that they didn't have any weapons, and I informed

7 Zdravko Pejic and Stevilovic about that and they gave their approval for

8 such people to be released.

9 Only those for whom it had been documented that they had been in

10 possession of military weapons were detained. One person in whose

11 possessions -- possession an automatic weapon was found --

12 MR. KRGOVIC: [Previous translation continued] ... sorry,

13 Your Honour, for this purpose can we go to the private session.

14 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] No. Why? Are we in

15 private session?

16 MR. KRGOVIC: [Previous translation continues] ... no, we are in

17 open session.

18 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated]

19 I'm sorry, Your Honours, we shouldn't have this conversation.

20 I see nothing in this that will possibly identify him, given the

21 numbers of people who were involved in --

22 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness has --

23 the witness began to speak about a specific instance, and that is why I

24 am concerned. But we can continue and then see whether this part of the

25 answer should remain in open session.

Page 25501

1 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.

2 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. What was your position while you were at the SJB with regard to

4 the use of force against people who were brought in?

5 A. In principle, I'm a professional, and never during my career did

6 I approve of the use of force, and I have never used force myself.

7 Sometimes there were excessive situations, mostly in the hallway or in

8 front of the police station, and when I witnessed that, I reacted. I

9 don't know what happened later, because I wasn't present all the time and

10 I didn't interview them. But sometimes during the interviews it could be

11 heard that the detained persons were being beaten by either the TO or the

12 local forces, over whom there was obviously insufficient control by their

13 superiors. The organisation was lacking.

14 In the room where I worked, there was no physical mistreatment.

15 I was alone with the persons who were interviewed.

16 Q. Did you inform anybody, such as Colonel Stevilovic or

17 Captain Dubocanin, of the behaviour of the TO members?

18 A. I mentioned these incidents when I spoke to them, but they knew

19 anyway. There was this story saying that it was impossible to bring into

20 order the Burcani Group. Everybody from the military was disappointed

21 with them because they couldn't control them. They weren't disciplined.

22 They did what they wanted to do.

23 Q. When you were trying to set up contacts, from whom did you get

24 authorisation? And who gave you instructions as to who you should

25 contact and how and where you should go?

Page 25502

1 A. Mostly it was Zdravko Pejic who gave me such information. Or

2 Dubocanin. They had their connections. At Vrbanci, Stevilovic was

3 present too. They had connections with the political leadership and took

4 decisions in my absence. As a -- they chose me as a person to set up

5 contacts. There was an active police officer - he may have been a police

6 inspector - who came with me.

7 Q. Please tell us, roughly, when you speak about the military

8 situation, what was the situation like around Kotor Varos? Were the

9 roads safe? And where were the Muslim and Croatian forces around

10 Kotor Varos?

11 A. From a military point of view, Kotor Varos was basically

12 surrounded by Muslim- and Croatian-populated territories. The road that

13 led into Kotor Varos passed through a Croatian village. And if we look

14 at the ethnic composition of the surroundings, Kotor Varos was surrounded

15 by Muslim and Croatian territories, and I have already said that they

16 were rather well armed.

17 I would like to point out that the Croats, apart from weapons,

18 also had a sophisticated radio communications system which was more

19 sophisticated than the system that the -- that state security had at the

20 time.

21 Q. Did you ever attend a meeting of the Crisis Staff of Kotor Varos?

22 A. Yes. I went there once. There was a discussion about the return

23 of the people from Kotor, and then somebody suggested that I should go

24 there. I vaguely remember the hallway of a public administration

25 building, but I cannot remember any more than that.

Page 25503

1 Q. When you were in Kotor Varos, did you pass on information to

2 other people apart from Catholic priests?

3 A. I had contacts with that inspector.

4 Q. I apologise, I meant persons from the opposite side.

5 A. No. I mostly went through priests.

6 Q. Did you have contacts with Orthodox priests too?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. For what purpose?

9 A. I contacted an Orthodox priest about an incident involving the

10 Catholic church. I asked the Orthodox priest to go and visit the

11 Catholic priest and express his regret, because it was basically

12 vandalism. And the man, indeed, did what I asked him to do.

13 Q. As for the situation in Kotor Varos, were you able to learn

14 anything about the combat activities around Kotor Varos? Was there any

15 fighting? Were there any victims?

16 A. Once I was present during combat. It was when Sprzo got killed.

17 He was the leader of the Croatian group, the armed group on the opposite

18 side. That was a group that was involved in the killing of Stevilovic

19 and Markovic. I stayed almost until the end of that action, but

20 eventually I left before it finished. I was informed later that Sprzo,

21 who was considered the most extreme member of that group, was killed in a

22 fortress not far from Kotor. That's -- it was a stronghold of his group.

23 It is not further than 500 metres from Kotor Varos itself, as the crow

24 flies.

25 Q. Do you know about the incident when the -- the special unit was

Page 25504

1 destroyed in June 1992 and everybody was killed?

2 A. Yes.

3 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to show

4 an excerpt from -- or, rather, a video-clip. Perhaps the witness can

5 give us some explanations. It's Exhibit P45, and I just want to show an

6 insert.

7 It's on page 4 of the English transcript.

8 Q. You needn't search in the binder. You will see the image.

9 [Video-clip played]

10 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Many viewers of the Krajina

11 television asked us to rebroadcast an item from yesterday's news about

12 the deaths of the members of the special police detachment of the

13 Banja Luka security services centre. Here it is now.

14 "It is the most difficult thing to get to the bodies of the dead

15 soldiers. It's more difficult than the fighting itself. That's when the

16 blackmail starts. The enemy first mutilates the dead body, cuts the

17 fates, gouges out of the eyes, cuts off the head, and invariably asks for

18 several live extremists in exchange for the body of a dead and mutilated

19 Serb. So the bodies of the dead soldiers were only delivered today. The

20 enemy used blackmail and demanded all sorts of things.

21 "We got our comrades back after three days. We complied with all

22 the requests they put us. They asked us to bring a hodza's son who

23 hadn't even been arrested. We went to the yard, to the town, brought

24 him, made an offer. They asked for 17 live people in exchange for a

25 number of the dead. We gave them to them, and look what they returned to

Page 25505

1 us. Our men mutilated and burned. But we shall pay them back. We shall

2 remember and pay them back for this.

3 "Could you identify the dead and mutilated combatants?

4 "Only by their uniforms.

5 "The lads are mutilated. Their eyes gouged out, their heads set

6 on fire, and the rest. They did that. They gouged out the eyes and

7 burnt the heads of Serb fighters. And so, after several days, the bodies

8 of the dead soldiers are here today.

9 "My best friends."

10 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Do you know this video-clip; and do you remember the event?

12 A. I remember the event. It was a major tragedy when seven of our

13 men were killed, and others too.

14 I was tasked to identify them, but I was unable to recognise

15 anybody. First I had to remove the white maggots from their faces which

16 were totally covered with maggots. And when I did, I couldn't recognise

17 the people because it was impossible. They were identified based on some

18 particularities they had on them, on their uniforms. One would have a

19 different belt, another was identified only because we knew that he had a

20 metal implant in his arm. It was really a horrible sight.

21 And all this is true. I have seen some people in this video-clip

22 from the detachment. Ljuban Ecim was there too. He made the statement.

23 Q. Did you see evidence of torture and burning?

24 A. Their heads were deformed. It could be seen in the video that

25 there was some injuries to their faces, and we suppose it was a

Page 25506

1 consequence of torture. They didn't all get killed immediately. Some

2 were caught alive. And the men were able to hear -- to hear them

3 squealing and -- but we couldn't help them because the stronghold was

4 fortified very well.

5 Q. I wanted to show Exhibit 2D134; tab 17 in the Zupljanin Defence

6 binder.

7 This is a monograph on members of the Ministry of the Interior.

8 Let us turn the page.

9 Here I see two persons. Are their -- are they your members?

10 A. Yes. Milan Ivkovic. He got killed then, on that occasion.

11 Q. I can see that he died on the 29th of June, 1992.

12 A. Yes. All members of the special detachment were killed on that

13 same day.

14 Q. Let's turn the page again but only in the original. It's the

15 same page in English.

16 We see these two persons. Can you tell us who they are?

17 A. This is Nenad Kalamanda, about whom I wrote that letter to

18 finance, and Zeljko Kukic.

19 Q. Tell me about this Kukic. Was he a member?

20 A. Yes, he was.

21 Q. Next page, please.

22 These two, Slavisa Marinkovic and Zoran Racic.

23 A. Yes. They were also members of the special detachment who got

24 killed that day.

25 Q. Next page, please.

Page 25507

1 One is from Doboj. But I'm interested in the upper one,

2 Predrag Stokuca.

3 A. He was a member of the detachment.

4 Q. And the last page, please.

5 Could you tell me about these two, Drazenko Savic and

6 Dragisa Stanivukovic?

7 A. These two were also members of the special detachment.

8 Q. Just briefly, could we see tab 19. It's P1092.

9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Before we do that, Mr. Krgovic:

10 Mr. Witness, the men you were shown, were they all members of the

11 special detachment?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All these men who got killed on the

13 29th of June in Kotor Varos were members of the special detachment.

14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Were they members of what you call a military

15 platoon or a police platoon? Do you know?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In that operation, they were the

17 military. And otherwise, even before the detachment, they were members

18 of military units. In that action, they were under military command and

19 they're considered to have died in combat as soldiers.

20 It says CJB Banja Luka because the detachment belonged to the CJB

21 Banja Luka. It was attached to the CJB in this organisational scheme.

22 But during their work in Kotor Varos they were resubordinated to the

23 military, and they were commanded by the commander of the theatre of war

24 in that area.

25 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.

Page 25508

1 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Can I just follow up on this question by Judge Delvoie. You said

3 it, but I don't think your answer was properly interpreted.

4 The Judge asked you about these specific men who were killed.

5 From which parts of the detachment were they?

6 A. Here we have a list. Kalamanda, Marinkovic, Racic,

7 Stokuca, Ivkovic, Sabanovic, and others, those were members of the

8 detachment who were killed. They were the last on the payroll, and

9 according to --

10 Q. We didn't get to that yet.

11 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we show the witness -- or,

12 rather, in e-court, P1092. That's tab 19 from the Zupljanin Defence

13 binder so we can follow.

14 Q. Page 7 in e-court, please.

15 A. Six.

16 Q. It's 6 in your version.

17 Could you carefully read the names out.

18 A. Nenad Kalamanda, Slavisa Marinkovic. Zoran Racic,

19 Predrag Stokuca, Drazen Savic, Dragisa Stanivukovic, Milan Ivkovic,

20 Sinisa Savanovic.

21 Q. Did they come from military structures to join the detachment?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Just one moment. And they were not paid for the month of August?

24 I don't see them on the payroll for August.

25 A. Right. Except for Nenad Kalamanda because he had not been paid

Page 25509

1 for earlier months either. So the decision was made to pay the arrears

2 to his family, because he had not been paid even during the secondment to

3 Doboj.

4 Q. When you were answering the question put by

5 Honourable Judge Delvoie concerning their status, in this operation and

6 similar operations of the same nature what was the status of the

7 detachment when they participated in something like this, like in

8 Kotor Varos?

9 A. In every situation, when assignments are received, the commander

10 in that area would issue orders to his own units and resubordinated

11 units. Everybody knew exactly in which sector they would move. And the

12 co-ordination was provided by the military command, so the unit could not

13 choose their own axis of movement, nor decide when they would start an

14 attack. It was all specified by the military commander.

15 Q. During those military operations with resubordination involved,

16 if any irregularity occurred would it be the military commander who was

17 responsible to take steps? What was his authority?

18 A. He could take disciplinary measures. That was under his command.

19 All the orders of that military commander have to be obeyed. He is the

20 one who is responsible, and he has jurisdiction and powers to both

21 commend and to punish.

22 Q. Apart from your presence in the area of Kotor Varos, you

23 mentioned you were also in units that carried out combat activity in the

24 area of Obudovac.

25 A. That's correct.

Page 25510

1 Q. What was the structure there? What were you doing there? How

2 did the command and control system work?

3 A. Well, the personnel was from the public security sector.

4 However, command and control were in the hands of the military.

5 In the initial period, Colonel Peulic was in command. And during

6 every military operation he would first convene the command. Even I was

7 present on one occasion. And he personally gave orders - who would go

8 along which axis, who would be on the left side on of us, who on the

9 right side. He would issue passwords and code-names, and he would also

10 tell us who would be in co-ordination action with us -- co-ordinated

11 action with us, which units, because there was also an armoured unit and

12 an artillery group.

13 So the army commanded, issued orders, and they had to obey these

14 orders, which is quite natural. I think that's the way it always works,

15 because under the law everyone in a theatre of war is resubordinated to

16 the military command.

17 Q. When you were there, occupied with those other duties - I don't

18 want to go into private session now - but not your regular duties; when

19 you were negotiating with the other side and going through Slavonia, were

20 you able to move around freely?

21 A. No. I had to have a permit from the military command, and I did

22 get one. This paper specified exactly where I was free to move and what

23 I was allowed to carry, in terms of equipment and weapons.

24 Q. When you were with the unit in Obudovac, did you get any

25 commendation or were you nominated for a commendation?

Page 25511

1 A. I was. I think it was a public commendation that I received.

2 Because I stayed for two full rotations. One rotation was 20 days, but

3 because some other employees were on sick-leave we stayed for two full

4 rotations. And it is for that that we were commended.

5 Q. Now, regarding the composition of the unit you referred to, you

6 explained yesterday in detail who joined the unit. Were there any

7 problems with discipline in the detachment?

8 A. There were. There were problems with discipline. And whenever

9 they occurred, disciplinary measures were taken. And they basically

10 boiled down to - because that's the only thing we could do - taking the

11 men off war-time assignments. And Colonel Stevilovic re-directed these

12 men to some other units, if that were possible. Or if it was a more

13 serious violation, they were prosecuted.

14 Q. You spoke yesterday about these things. Could you look at this

15 document again.

16 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] If we could go back to page one.

17 Q. In addition to these men who were active duty, on pages 2 and 3 I

18 see blank lines, meaning that people were not paid. You said yesterday

19 that some were taken off war-time assignments and expelled from the

20 detachment.

21 Based on these records can you tell me, what kind of number are

22 we talking about?

23 A. Around 20.

24 Q. Do you know, for the entire time the detachment existed, how many

25 in total?

Page 25512

1 A. I believe around 40 men were taken off war-time assignments for a

2 variety of reasons ranging from poor discipline - and now I'm not

3 counting those seven or eight who were killed - ranging from lack of

4 discipline, going absent without official leave, et cetera. So everyone

5 who was guilty of such an offence was taken off the war-time assignment

6 and did not receive their salary.

7 Q. What was the procedure if it was found out that a member of the

8 detachment was guilty of some irregularity?

9 A. When something like that happened, I would be usually tasked with

10 running checks, or some other commanding officer. And I made an inquiry.

11 And if the allegations proved true, then the command would decide on

12 disciplinary measures. The most usual measure was expulsion from the

13 detachment.

14 That happened in some cases. But in a few cases the men were

15 actually prosecuted. And these things happened mainly because those men

16 were not trained policemen and they thought they were allowed to do the

17 same things as policemen did, although they were a military unit. So

18 they frequently made mistakes. But there was also a rivalry between

19 these structures at the time, the police and the special detachment,

20 because police officers wanted to have more powers and to be more free in

21 their conduct, and the members of the special detachment wanted the same

22 thing. So they had frequent conflicts and friction between them, and

23 this is to be found in various reports and dispatches.

24 Q. You mentioned it in your interview, but I want to ask you: Were

25 there any other men in Banja Luka or other areas who had similar

Page 25513

1 uniforms, and did that have anything to do with the perpetration of

2 criminal offences or disciplinary infractions?

3 A. There were many cases where we determined that it was not

4 actually a member of the special detachment who was responsible. In

5 Banja Luka it was possible to get hold of any kind of uniform you wanted.

6 I know that in my neighbourhood there was a man who always received the

7 first model of any uniform that would appear, although he had not been

8 to -- to any war zone. So we did work to make our insignia more

9 distinctive. And this is also one of the reasons why the special

10 detachment was frequently mentioned in negative contexts and allegations

11 were made of misconduct by its members.

12 Q. Was there any misidentification or confusion in identifying

13 members of various units, especially if we bear in mind that uniforms

14 were similar?

15 A. Yes. There were some situations when one didn't know who belongs

16 to which unit. At the beginning, there were no camouflage uniforms, and

17 reservists wore normal olive-grey uniforms. And when the camouflage

18 uniforms appeared, people associated them with the special units, and

19 they called anyone with a camouflage uniform a member of a special unit.

20 It was very difficult also because there were lots of groups which

21 proclaimed themselves to be special units or defenders of the Serbian

22 people and whatnot, and that's why some decisions were made to put an end

23 to this. And steps were being taken all the time.

24 Q. Would you now please look at the document P00628; tab 22 in the

25 Stojan Zupljanin Defence binder.

Page 25514

1 Look at page 1, please. We can see it's from 1993. It's a

2 report on -- on registered illegal activities of the members of the

3 former Banja Luka Security Services Centre Special Purpose Police

4 Detachment.

5 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Please turn the page.

6 Q. Paragraph 2 refers to a meeting at the local commune discussing

7 these people, and the last sentence says:

8 "Representatives of the Karanovac local commune say that

9 potential perpetrators among others were former members of the Banja Luka

10 Security Services Centre Special Purposes Police Detachment ..."

11 I'll go through this document with you and I'll ask you to read

12 certain passages carefully. I'll begin with item 1, which describes

13 certain incidents. And it says:

14 On 22nd May 1992, in Banja Luka, around 10.00 a.m. - the street

15 is named - a number of troops wearing camouflage uniforms led by

16 Zlatko Milankovic from Veliki Grac [as interpreted], who held himself out

17 as the commander of a special unit, prevented the carrying out of an

18 official assignment, in brackets, assistance.

19 Now, tell me about this person Zlatko Milankovic. Was he a

20 member of the special detachment?

21 A. Not that I know, but we can check on the list. I don't think --

22 we don't have that person on the list.

23 The problem was that people were taken at their word, whoever

24 they said they were. And many of these people, as my checks have shown,

25 had absolutely nothing to do with us. And from this list we see that

Page 25515

1 this man is not a member of the special detachment.

2 Q. Have you seen this document? Have you reviewed it? P1092.

3 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we show that document again

4 in e-court, please. P1092. Page 11.

5 That's the other document from 1993.

6 All these men are listed in alphabetical order, so we're looking

7 for M. Next page, please.

8 Q. Do you see Zlatko Milankovic on the list?

9 A. I don't see him.

10 Q. Sorry, we didn't hear you.

11 A. No, there is no Zlatko Milankovic.

12 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we go back to document

13 P00628. Tab 22.

14 Q. This incident under 2, although it's an incident that happened in

15 1993, but it says "persons in unidentified green camouflage uniforms."

16 And it says these are alleged to be members of the 4th Detachment.

17 Can you see from this report whether they were members of the

18 detachment?

19 A. No, I can't see that.

20 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Let's go to number 3.

21 Q. We see an account of an incident during which some persons took a

22 pistol. These are the -- this incident involves police members?

23 Do you know about it? Was this person -- was a report filed

24 about this person?

25 A. I don't remember this.

Page 25516

1 Q. Was any report against these persons received in June 1992? Let

2 me see again. Who was advised to report to Banja Luka Security Services

3 Centre?

4 A. I never received such a report.

5 Q. There's an interesting incident at number 4. On 3 June 1992, in

6 front of the catering facilities Bos and Trend, a serious incident

7 between members of Banja Luka CSB Special Purposes Police Detachment and

8 Banja Luka Public Security Station employees took place. The description

9 follows.

10 Do you know anything about these catering facilities and what

11 happened there?

12 A. Yes. There was this problem of the relations between the special

13 unit members and the regular police, and I believe that the pub owners

14 also contributed to that. Police members used to frequent one pub. They

15 had the right to move about even during the curfew. Whereas the special

16 unit members used to frequent another pub.

17 I checked this, and both of them were belligerent, if you want,

18 or unyielding. Some -- an Official Note was made. But once we

19 established that the -- it was only about bad relations between the two

20 groups, it wasn't followed up anymore.

21 There was a decision about the -- the opening hours of pubs.

22 And, by the way, there's such a regulation even today, but it isn't

23 heeded much. We didn't take disciplinary action here, but we did advise

24 them that it wasn't all right for them to get into rows with the police.

25 Q. Apart from the special detachment members in Banja Luka, was

Page 25517

1 there another special unit at SJB level?

2 A. Yes. At the same time, there was an intervention unit of the

3 Banja Luka SJB. There were also kind of skirmishes between the groups

4 because they considered -- or one group considered that Banja Luka was

5 their home turf. But the special unit of Banja Luka SJB remained in

6 existence even after our unit was disbanded.

7 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Let's turn the page now.

8 Q. There's a description of the incident mentioned under 5.

9 Unidentified persons wearing blue camouflage uniforms with police

10 insignia ...

11 A. This was an incident when the wannabe specials made a raid and

12 the real detachment members threw them out of that place. As far as I

13 remember, that was a building where one of our operatives lived.

14 Q. An incident under 6, where three unidentified persons wearing

15 camouflage uniforms beat up somebody.

16 Do you know anything about this?

17 A. I cannot tell. This was probably just a report without

18 substantial information.

19 Q. As far as you know, how were incidents involving people wearing

20 camouflage uniforms treated?

21 A. Well, all operatives of the SJB knew, and there was a lot of talk

22 about that, that their chief of station, Mr. Tutus, wasn't on good terms

23 with the centre chief. And so that all incidents involving persons

24 wearing camouflage uniforms were attributed to the special detachment

25 because they knew that their boss wanted such things recorded. And

Page 25518

1 whenever there's an account of an incident where nobody's personal

2 information was taken, to my mind, was only a consequence of that -- that

3 relationship and the prevailing climate.

4 Q. Under 7, although this is about an incident that happened in

5 1993, a traffic check is mentioned. Some vehicles were stopped. And

6 I'll read out the second paragraph:

7 "First, at Kozarske Brigade Street, a passenger vehicle was

8 stopped. The driver was Stojan Bjelajac, member of the Banja Luka

9 Security Services Centre Special Purposes Police Detachment ..."

10 Was Stojan Bjelajac a member of the detachment?

11 A. No, he wasn't. I can tell because he was a member of military

12 post number 7007, or the Tajfuns, which I established by checking.

13 Q. In the next paragraph, we read:

14 "At 6.10 p.m., a passenger vehicle was pulled over," and then the

15 make is stated, "... driven by Radovan Sejmanovic, member of Banja Luka

16 Security Services Centre Special Purposes Police Detachment. He was

17 disrespectful to the policeman during the inspection and claimed that the

18 policeman had no right to check him."

19 Was this Radovan Sejmanovic a member of the detachment?

20 A. No, he wasn't.

21 Q. On the following page we see that one Radovan Milakovic, member

22 of the police detachment, was driving a vehicle without licence plates.

23 And was anything done about that? And what was Milakovic's

24 status?

25 A. Just a moment.

Page 25519

1 He was taken off the war-time assignment because of this, I

2 think.

3 As far as I know, he left to Okucani.

4 Q. And at number 8 --

5 A. Yes. This is proof. I see that Radovan Milakovic did not

6 receive a salary. You can see on page 3 of the payroll for August.

7 Q. Was that -- what does that mean?

8 A. That disciplinary sanctions were taken against him and that he

9 was kicked out of the unit. That was in our line of work. And

10 everything else with regard to that is under the jurisdiction of the SJB.

11 And when I say that, I mean criminal prosecution.

12 Q. Were they duty-bound to file a report?

13 A. If there were grounds for that, yes. And it says here that he

14 was driving a car without licence plates or that he had the licence

15 plates from another car, which means that they should have reported him

16 to the SUP that had jurisdiction over such cases.

17 Q. Driving a car without licence plates, is that a crime or a

18 misdemeanour?

19 A. It's a misdemeanour. But the case should have been produced

20 anyway to see how he came by those licence plates.

21 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have a couple of

22 minutes left, but I suggest that we stop now and continue tomorrow.

23 JUDGE HALL: Yes. Thank you.

24 So we take the adjournment, to resume at 9.00 tomorrow morning.

25 The -- the ushers can see the witness out after we would have